About 6 years ago, we had our first home built. It was a bit of a headache because the GC was over committed on builds and trying to keep their head above water (later found out their company changed names 3 times since then, one of which was during our build). I can't complain too much, as our house turned out fine and it was a package deal where we closed on a brand new home that was mostly to our liking. It wasn't too bad of an experience, but there were many times where I felt I would have rather been in control of the subs and many features of the house would have been better off because of it.

We've outgrown our starter home, recently put an offer in on some land and it's been accepted. Soil/Perc/Survey is done and it's suitable to build on, wife and I couldn't be happier with the lot overlooking a small lake.

Now we're finalizing on our new plans and trying to track down a suitable GC. I'm really struggling to find one that wont rake us over the coals because we're using a piece of land that's not already in their inventory. One such build we're looking at, they are basically offering the same total cost if we were to use their lot vs build it on ours. I get that they can do this because they already own the land and want it out of their inventory, but I'd expect at least a little bit of a discount using ours.

We're also limited to the plans that the GC has in their drawer, because it's what they are comfortable with and have the pricing pretty locked down. I get that too, it's a safe way to operate in an industry that's been tough to survive in since '08, but is a lot more work finding something that will "work" for us rather than something that is exactly what we want.

Trying to keep this short, the experience this time around is seriously pushing me to consider being our own GC for this build. I was in the trades during and directly out of high school and have been involved in a few builds start to finish. I'm comfortable with the entire build process, though I'll admit a bit dated on codes and new construction techniques, I don't feel as though there would be any surprises that would catch me off guard other than unreliable subs.

I also get that a GC doesn't necessarily need trade skills to be able to push a schedule and keep people on task, and am here seeking insight from those that may have experience in this realm. Is it a terrible idea, if one has proper time to commit to it? Are hybrid GC's that act as consultants really a thing and something to consider, or just an internet fallacy?

Do yourself a favor and find a good custom home builder!!!!  You don't have the skill set and knowledge to do it yourself, and will make mistakes that either cost you money, or you will end up settling for items or conditions you regret.  OP, I was a custom builder for 25 years before I retired, and can't tell you how many times I lost jobs because the client thought the price I quoted was to high.  Many times these prospects would call months later, either asking me to take over for their "cheaper" contractor, or help them because they were in over their heads.  

What's your budget, and is it realistic?  How are you going to know if your budget is realistic unless you bid the project out to several QUALIFIED builders.  There are a lot of costs that you can't compute without some experience with the subcontractors.  Perhaps money is no problem, in which case you only have to worry about incompetent, crappy subs that cut corners at any opportunity.  Established builders have had years to weed out the bad ones, and lots of experience knowing who the good ones are.  You will only get one chance, and I am certain you will hire some that you wished you never met.

What's your piece of mine worth?  Yes, it can be hard to find a good contractor.  Find one that can provide several good references, and communicates honestly with you.  Is the contractor blowing smoke up your ass, telling you everything you want to hear, or is he honest and up front when it comes to discussing budget, changes, etc.?  Good luck.

I am doing that right now.  House is mostly framed and waiting on roof trusses at the moment.

Few thoughts.  This is the second house I have built.  I hired a custom builder on my last house.  He completed it up to the drywall and then I finished it.  It worked out very well and was a smooth build.

This house has been a headache so far.  Finding subs who will just show up or even just call me back has been a nightmare.  I finally have decided on a HVAC guy, an insulation guy, and a drywaller.  I'll finish the rest.  My main builder who is building the structure is a nice guy but he is trying to juggle too many projects at one time.  He's done a good framing job so far but he's not very reliable.  Not one thing has started on time.  I've thought about firing him but the problem is, where I live construction is doing very well so just finding a builder is almost impossible.  So, I have to put up with this guy because if I fire him, I have no idea who I would hire to finish his work.  

If you have specific questions, just ask.  It's a nightmare but it's also rewarding...when it's complete.

What area in MN are you?

-Dero1548

This definitely seems to be the case. I've got a few buddies still trying their hand at the flipping business and are having a hell of a time finding people capable of quality work.

Can't say it's not expected though, I've been able to find a few judgements against the builder we used on our first build for not paying his subs.

North washington county, looking to build in chisago/lindstrom if we close on this lot.

This is the kind of feedback I'm looking for, thanks. Most responses are either in extreme favor touting it as an easy way to save money, and other responses on the complete opposite end of that spectrum.

I know it's no cake-walk. I expect struggles, dead-beat subs and other unknowns to be encountered. It is very helpful getting an idea of the depth of struggle to determine if it's worth my time and energy vs paying the premium to put that pressure on someone else.

Speaking from the viewpoint of a sub, 99% of the homes we've done where the homeowner was also the GC have been a nightmare, and cost the homeowner thousands of dollars in extras across all the trades. This is not to say he didn't save money over having hired a GC, but rather, the expected saving dwindled away to nearly no savings, but with the added stresses.

Your job may go better, but I cringe when I hear the HO is the GC, and have consistently suggested we add a HO/GC up-charge, to cover the many wasted trips where they really weren't ready for us, and other foul ups.

What did you see as the hold up in most cases, just bad time management/scheduling of subs? This seems like it'd be easy to do if one wasn't careful, especially if time estimates are not accurate.

I can understand your headaches.  In my case, every time I have told a sub that it's ready for him, it's been ready.  The issue is, I can't seem to rely on my contractor to be there when he says he'll be there.  My subs can rely on me....I can't rely on them.  

As an example from the last house..

When starting to go over the plans for the basement rough in, I stated that (obviously) I wanted to drain everything possible by gravity, and only put those fixtures on the building subdrain into the lift station, and proceeded to lay out what spaces I needed to bring the whole east side of the house over in.  He failed to mention the steel I beams that were to box in the expansive master bath/laundry/bar.

Changes up the ying yang, as it is harder for the GC to say no to Mrs Homeowner when she is also his wife.

That's just what pops into my head immediately, and I have had homes that went exceptionally smooth with the GC and HO being one and the same, but that is definitely the exception rather than the rule.

Shnelson- I typed this out in an effort to help you but after reading it I think it's more of a self help therapy letter with a little tongue in cheek.


I think you're correct, it doesn't take a GC to push a schedule, that would be more of a project manager's roll.  I think that a good GC is responsible for daily site tasks and coordination, not just setting the goals but making it happen.  

I'm not an active plumber like Jake-The-Snake but I was in his position early in my career before moving on to GC..   It's not fun or financially viable for a sub to drive for an hour to a project for a quick rough-in at "Joe's" house and then find out that the building isn't ready.  That usually happens the day after the plumbing sub has told someone else, someone that did have their act together, to screw off for a couple of days because he promised "Joe" that he would be at his house tomorrow.  My other favorite is to find a floor joist, or worst, an engineered floor joist under the bath plumbing wall or the water closet. Then there's the old truss on top of a wall that is suppose to be the path for a 3" vent stack trick.  Being ahead of those potential problems is something that is only gained from experience, usually bad experience.  The typical homeowner, doctor, lawyer etc  doesn't have those skills, you may.

Having said that, home owner/GCs and their subs can work through problems and avoid the court system.  Pick quality subs and appreciate that the subs are trying to make a living.  Pay them without hesitation and on schedule if they request additional funds for screw ups that aren't their fault.  They will respect you and kiss your butt if that's what it takes to help you get through the project.  Don't throw money at them if they don't earn it unless it's for work that is beyond the initial scope of work.  When the project is done you can have a beer together and exchange Christmas cards.

As a GC, it is my or your responsibility to define the scope of work in advance of signing the contract documents.  It takes many pages of plans, specifications and schedules to do that properly for a house. Those cost money...  Don't expect to get the Kohler toilet with the heated seat and personal massage arms if you simply show a toilet on a plan view page of the drawings.  Good contact documents are essential to protect everyone.  I don't think I've signed another contractor's proposal in the last twenty years.  I'll include their contract/proposal but they'll sign my contract with my clarifications and revisions or they won't get the work.  Protect yourself but meet them half way.  That's the way it works in the business.  Never pay a contractor in advance of services rendered.  If they drop off 40k of supplies at the site for work that they'll start in a week consider giving them a start up check when they start installing the materials if agreed upon.    They don't want to be a finance company for your project so pay them but do make sure you owe them some money until the conclusion of the project or their scope of work is complete and approved by the local inspectors.  Never fire a contractor unless the contract documents support you, you don't need the headache.  

Do expect that you'll be disappointed during the process.  If you select the best sub that is God's gift to the world appreciate the fact that they can screw up or could be behind schedule because it snowed for three days or the previous client added 5 days of additional work on their prior project that delayed them.  If you need to hit a specific date to save a quarter point on a thirty year note set realistic time goals.  Subs with the best intentions will lie to you regarding completion dates because they're optimist  Do have weeks in the schedule that they're not aware of.

If you don't have a good list of subs in mind then don't do it.  Getting good ones can be a real crapshoot.  Getting good prices, even harder.

Some example from my experience during the height of the boom.  Even getting calls back was hard.

HVAC bid:  low 12,000. High 35,000.  Low bid was fine, but the quality was just ok.

Exterior work. (HardiSiding, Aztec trim, etc.). High bid 65,000.  Time and materials: 28,000

Kitchen install:  high bid $4500.  Time and materials bid: $350

One plumber did the ground work and then never returned.  The guy that finished the roughin was T&M at $75 an hour and unlicensed.  I was glad to have him. I did all the fixtures.

Electricans were not interested.  Finally a friend recommended a production guy that came out on weekend with his helpers.  Averaged $60 an hour for the whole 3 man crew.  I bought all the supplies and fed them.  I did a lot of the hookup.

Best deal was the trim carpenter.  Turns out the HVAC salesman was a carpenter new to the area.  He called up and promised good production and top quality for $35 an hour.  We did a trial room that was outstanding and went from there.

Roofing: guy that put down the felt never came back and never billed me.  Roofer that did the shingles only worked here when he had nothing else to do. So for gutters I went with an ad out of the local want ad.  That guy turned out to be awesome.

Framers:  high priced guys were great for the house.  Garage was 8k less with a crew of hacks.  I regret using them.  A few months later they disabled their foreman by dropping a steel beam on him at another job.

Flooring: a company from out of state shipped me $5000 of crap.  Had to buy it all again locally for $7000.


I saved little, but ended up with tons of upgrades I could never have afforded.  My house is unique and really quite special.

I got bids on the HVAC system.  Same system was $5000 difference between different HVAC companies.  Lowest priced bid also offered me the best install AND a slightly upgraded system.  Meeting the HVAC guy there this week to discuss how he'll install it.  My builder recommended the HVAC guy.  In this case, his recommendation worked out.  

Builder's recommendation for a septic guy turned out to be a bust.  Could never get the guy to show up.  Contacted a local septic guy and his price was fair and is going to get me in immediately.  He'll be digging the septic this week.  

I've talked to 5 different drywall contractors.  Several promised me they would get me a price....but never even bothered to bid the job.  Another was pleasant but couldn't say when he could show up.  Last guy showed up, gave me a professional bid, and said he could start any time in Dec.  He's going to get the job.  

Sub contractors have been all over the place on reliability.  I'm getting tired of dealing with their bullshit.  However, it's coming together slowly but surely.

Thanks for the feedback as of yet. You guys are keeping me inspired.

We met with an architect today to get our own plan drawn up, should have preliminary done in a couple of weeks to send off to a handful of GCs and get a rough bid.

I don't close on the lot until february and we wont start the build until late spring/early summer. I've got quite a bit of homework to get done, most of which I think will only make selecting the proper GC that much easier if we do end up going that route.

My next step will be tracking down well and septic guys to get an estimate, these are the two primary costs that I'm most worried about as far as setting this build over budget.

Summer is a good time to build.  Ground has dried out and is ready for concrete.  Early spring is a bad time to be pouring concrete.  This time of year isn't a great time of year either but I didn't have a choice.  I tried to get my builder to start a few weeks earlier but he didn't.  We are so far behind on this build.  Trusses were delivered this week and he said he would set them this week.  But, I'm skeptical.  And, then after Thanksgiving, it's looking like rain.  I REALLY want to fire my builder.  The guy hasn't lived up to one single promise he has made me.  I can't wait to get him to finish up, pay him, and get him the hell out of there.

I should also point out it took me three years to move in

I had a place to live on the property, but still

I forgot about another roofer I had for the metal on the porch and another area.  He was really good, but was too busy to do anything else.

I talked to 3 or 4 masons.  One had stonework that was just what we wanted.  Dropped off plans for a bid and never heard from him, didn't return calls, so we went with another guy that was going to do it with his son.  We were calling around to get the stone lined up and called the mason we liked since he also had a stone yard.  He said,  "why am I not building the whole thing?" and I said, I gave you plans and never got a bid...  He dug through his truck and call back 10 minutes later with a bid.  We accepted and two hours later he had 80 tons of material on site.  His 6 man crew was here for almost a month.  I can't image how that man with his son would have finished.

Let's see... Oh, the painter didn't like the fact I was pointing out the shit job his assistant did while he was on vacation.  He decided to assault me... grabbed me by the collar and cocked back a fist.  Then quickly backed away.  I'm not sure what look I gave him, but it was probably the visual equivalent of an 870.  That didn't really go his way.

The original plumber hooked up the basement floor drain to the waste pipes.  Apparently that is a no-no here and was caught only on rough in final when it gurgled.  it was passed only because my $75 an hour unlicensed plumber was friends with the inspector.  Otherwise I was looking at jackhammering a lot of concrete.

My architect specified a foundation width of so many feet and 5 inches.... only problem is concrete forms only come in 2" increments.

The drywall guy was so slow that I fired him and used the siding guy to finish up.

I didn't have any interior door knobs for about a year and I still have unfinished doors and trim in a few rooms.

Ordered the kitchen cabinets off the internet, they arrived in a trailer pulled by a pickup.  Awesome stuff.  That company is out of business now...

I installed my own flooring, plumbing fixtures, lighting, security system, central vac, steam shower, deck, porches, structured wiring, appliances, and even some gas lines.

One HVAC return was drywalled over.  Take lots of pictures along they way.  I can't tell you how many times I referenced them and wished I had a few more angles.

Some good info in here, but on the last post: TAKE VIDEO OF EVERY INCH of the house. Not pictures. Get a decent digital video camera(maybe a new smartphone?), make sure you have good lighting, and be thorough. Get in close where needed to capture details. Save multiple copies of the videos in separate locations.

For those considering a self-build without building experience: Consider finding a builder you trust and ask to pay him as a consultant. Use him for sub recommendations; subs don't care about you, you are building one house. They'll care if the builder is happy or not. This is a generalization, but will be insurance for you. You may end up paying him a few thousand or more depending on your house but it may save your house build from being a disaster. He'll make some cash without much work, possibly keep his subs happy during a slow time, and you'll get his expertise.

This bears repeating and to add

You unfortunately won't know what you don't know until it's too late and will cost you time & money

I'm a general contractor & have consulted on a few projects which worked out for everyone as Ron suggested.

My buddy BMW20 who is a member here just got done doing this. He is very squared away and his dad is retired and was at the site everyday. That said the BS that he had to mess with entire project is enough to make me never want to be my own GC in the future and I grew up building houses with my Builder/Master Plumber/Master Electrician step dad.

I file this, at least for me under the I have more money than time and will hire a GC if I ever build in the future.
J-

I have conflicting opinions on this.

Construction (of houses) isn't rocket science, but it is specialized.   As someone alluded to above, subs don't give a shit about you.  You are one job and they may or may not get paid.  A regular GC that they do a lot of work for, they care about them and will do lots to please them.  

Quality costs.  Not just in materials but labor.  The reason (usually, not always) that carpenter A is more than carpenter B is that carpenter B actually knows WTF he is doing and can actually fix things.  

Take your best estimate, double it, add 20%, now you are in the ballpark.  

I currently work in a lumber yard and my opinion is actually worse now than it was.  

Most GC's and supers couldn't plan their lunch much less an actual job.   Day after day with one or two items to the same damn site.  And mind you, these are not custom homes, these are subdivisions, only so many plans and yet they can't plan beyond a few hours.   Really, it's fucking sad.  And god forbid a part be 1/16' of an inch too big, nobody with enough talent to fix it actually is on site (or cares enough to fix it).  Really, don't buy a new tract home.

My last remodel I hired a construction manager.  He had the subs and knowledge and he was so much an hour when on site plus 10% of the subs price.  But I paid the subs directly (and got my lien releases).  It worked out very well.  He wasn't on the hook for thousands of dollars but I got his knowledge, competence and inside info of good subs.

My house is moving along finally but still way behind.  I've been wiring and plumbing the house.  The main contractor has been working hard and we are finally mostly dried in.  Not completely but good enough.  

My biggest hint should have been the main contractor taking several weeks to get me my bid.  If I had been thinking, if it's taking him so long to get me just an estimate, it will probably take that long to get my house finished up.  

I've been working furiously getting my part ready to go for insulation.  I hope I'll be ready for insulation the first week of Jan.

Slowly making progress. I decided to take a step back and make a proper approach if this is to come to fruition. I've "window shopped" around the online plan inventory most builders in the area offer, or at least the ones established enough to have an online presence - and have come up empty handed. That said, the builder I'd hypothetically want is probably successful/busy enough that they couldn't care less about an online presence.

We're still counting down the days before closing on the lot. Just over a month out now, it's given me time to work with a Draftsman and get a preliminary plan drawn up to our liking. We've got the look and feel my wife wants, now it's down to finalizing a floor plan that will suit my needs (mostly ensuring ample man space available in the basement).

My next order of business is making sure the lot is suitable for the house (ie - allow for a walkout, septic placement & making sure excavation costs are not ridiculous).

From there, I have every intent to complete financial projections on a sworn construction statement. I feel as though this approach will allow me to get a feel for what it will be like working with subs, and give me a figure to work with if we chose to hand it off to a GC for a full build. So far, it seems that a consultant might be the best of both worlds and seriously worth the overhead.

I'll be sure to post updates as they are relevant, and continue to appreciate the input from everyone. I'd love to see this continue as a progressing thread of builds, I'm sure there are plenty of people out there like myself that would benefit from the information before committing to such an endeavor.

Starting to get some bids back, my excitement for building on this particular lot is diminishing as there are some uncertainties.

Looking at just shy of $30k for well and septic, which is right around where I'd suspected it would be - but there's an additional $15k in dirt needed for the walkout and mound system. Largely an estimation because the current survey does not include elevations.

On the "using a builder" end of the spectrum, we've got one coming in at $148/sq ft, another at $172/sq ft. Waiting on a third bid from a builder that I'd actually like to go with if we do go that route.

Whew....pricey.  House I'm building now is going to be about $65 per square foot once we're done.  But, that doesn't count the cost of the land into the price.

I thought so too. Our cost for first build was about $120 per square foot, and it included finishes on par with what we're asking for this time around. These figures do not include the lot price either.

I realize region plays a factor here, but if I could get anywhere near $100, it makes it completely worth the effort to proceed on our own.


I'm also seriously considering spancrete for additional space under the garage. Much research to be done here yet, but I gain a good chuck of work space and that's 288yds of dirt that wouldn't need to be hauled in (excavator is asking for 1500yds).

Are you doing all plumbing/elec yourself, or just portions of it?

Damn, if I could build anything with a finish quality I would accept for $65/sq ft here, I would have built instead of bought. I could've spent $50k on a lot and built a house as big as the one I bought for the same price and had a new house to boot. Where are you building for $65/sq ft?

OP, did I read your last update correctly? $30,000 for well and septic? Wow. You're right. Region does have its cost differences.

Is there anything special about how deep they have to sink the well or your septic setup to get that price? I'd recommend a couple of more estimates for that. Well and septic for my house we built 8 years ago was only like $3,500. Well's down to about 75 feet. Septic is sized for a 3 BR 2 1/2 BA home. Not bragging by any means. More in shock at the price you were quoted.

Septic is definitely on the high end, at best I can probably save $5-6k on it. It's spec'd with 2 1250 gal septic tanks and a 1000 gal lift tank, 1/2hp pump. Rest of the cost is coming from it being a mound system. It's amazing how expensive it is to take a shit around here.

Well depth is about 170', price for that is estimated at 10,500.

Am doing all the electric myself.  I had the rough in drains installed for me because I didn't trust myself to get it right...especially under ground.  I'm doing all the supply piping after the well company installs the pressure tank and lines.

That is pricey. I just had my septic installed a month ago or so and it was $4000.  The well is 425 feet and with the pump and pressure tank, it'll be about $7500.

If you don't have construction experience and contacts already, I would not try to GC your own home. You don't know the character and personality of the trades and sub carpenters, and will end up getting f'ed over somewhere. I would go to the real lumberyards in your area, and ask the guys who work there who has the best reputation around. There are a lot of custom home builders that don't advertise, as their word of mouth reputation carries enough weight to keep them busy. They will have a suite of hvac, electricians, concrete guys, framers, etc that they are experienced working with and have a solid working relationship with, and your finished product will come out significantly better, on time, and on budget (as long as you don't keep adding stuff. Change orders can get pricey). They will be able to work you through decisions based on experience, and you will be much happier in the end. Why try to go cheap on the single place where you spend the most amount of your time?

Jealous of those prices colt!

A few more bids came in and bring me right around 18-20kish for the septic & well, might be able to do a little better here but not much.

Ran into some hiccups with acquiring the lot (realtor sent us down the wrong purchase path), in the process of getting that fixed and bundled into a construction loan.

I've also found what I hope to be our answer for a builder - a GC that is willing to do cost + % or a lump sum, our choice and it's more than reasonable. After all of the advice here and much contemplation on my part, it seems like the right answer and the best way to get what we want out of this build without going over my set budget, and an industry professional to boot.

I've noticed that getting subcontractors to show up on time is impossible.  I suspect the reason is that you as a GC are building one house.   An actual builder will build many houses.  The subcontractor will take care of the regular customers and you....well your project can wait.  

I've experienced that a LOT on my house build.  Luckily for me, when the drywall guy is done on my place, there won't be much else that anyone will be doing for me so I might not have to put up with the bullshit much longer.  

I am REALLY sick of dealing with subcontractors.  Some have been ok but most have not started on time and then don't show up....some won't even answer their phones.  I'm tempted to do the same thing to them when it comes time to pay them!

From an electricians point of view .....don't do it yourself. If you value your family time and sanity hire a good custom builder.

I wired my house myself.  Took time but wiring a house at least in my area is pretty simple if you understand electrical basics.

Why? It really depends on OP's knowledge of electricity and residential electrical systems, and his time/willingness to do it himself.

There's no reason a homeowner can't wire the house if they're knowledgeable about it. I'm not a residential electrician, but I am a computer engineer and design military vehicle electrical systems for a living. I'm quite familiar with electricity and reading codes and regulations. I'm in the process of fixing all of the electrical problems in the house I bought last May.

I'm not saying all homeowners, or even most for that matter, should work on their electrical systems, but you don't have to hold a license to know how to do it safely and properly.

I agree.  Now that said, I have seen some scary stuff that homeowners have done with electricity but someone who understands the basics of electricity and what's required, they can handle it.  Professionals don't always do things correctly.  My HVAC company did a nice install but they didn't connect the wires correctly and I had to fix it.  As a matter of fact, in this house build as well as my last one, I spent a lot of time fixing professional trade screw-ups.

I agree on both fronts.

I'm still on the fence about it. I'd like to add things like a manual transfer switch and have circuits run a certain way - but I have full respect for the time commitment and am not sure if I can swing it yet. My wife has a very firm expectation on build time as we'll be shacking up with the in-laws till it's complete, so I have to be very selective about which items I choose to tackle. I'm already doing the structured wiring, flooring and probably stone veneer.

Time vs Money!