User Panel
Posted: 8/29/2015 2:23:11 PM EDT
So I finally got around to getting a generator for emergencies. I wanted to keep it simple. Should I just build a suicide cable and connect the 220 line on the generator with the 220 dryer outlet? Obviously I would kill the main power and turn off everything I do not want powered. Is it worth the extra expense to install a transfer switch?
|
|
I would at the very least get a generator panel interlock kit.
|
|
At least feed it into the panel and use something like this.
|
|
Quoted:
So I finally got around to getting a generator for emergencies. I wanted to keep it simple. Should I just build a suicide cable and connect the 220 line on the generator with the 220 dryer outlet? Obviously I would kill the main power and turn off everything I do not want powered. Is it worth the extra expense to install a transfer switch? View Quote That's how I do it. |
|
Quoted:
So I finally got around to getting a generator for emergencies. I wanted to keep it simple. Should I just build a suicide cable and connect the 220 line on the generator with the 220 dryer outlet? Obviously I would kill the main power and turn off everything I do not want powered. Is it worth the extra expense to install a transfer switch? View Quote The cord will work ok. It's just not professional. You can have it ready temporarily. Once you have the Funds do something permanent. |
|
Interlock panel. Lots of good reasons to do it. No good reason not to.
|
|
If you energize the house wiring, it will energize the power lines - BAD JUJU!
You need to disconnect your house from the power lines BEFORE you energize the house wiring. |
|
I installed a dedicated outlet next to my panel, and installed an interlock kit. That way there is no room for error if somebody else wants to use the genny. It forces them to shut off the main to be able to switch the breaker on to the generator. It was inexpensive and an easy DIY to install. Better safe than sorry.
|
|
I installed a 240v outlet outside in my backyard and backfeed my panel with a suicide cord. If you know what you're doing it can be done safely.
I even have a check list of the whole hook-up and disconnect process just to be sure. |
|
Quoted:
If you energize the house wiring, it will energize the power lines - BAD JUJU! You need to disconnect your house from the power lines BEFORE you energize the house wiring. View Quote Yeah, I know. That's why I said i would kill the main. I'm not familiar with the interlock kit. I'll have to look into this. |
|
Quoted:
So I finally got around to getting a generator for emergencies. I wanted to keep it simple. Should I just build a suicide cable and connect the 220 line on the generator with the 220 dryer outlet? Obviously I would kill the main power and turn off everything I do not want powered. Is it worth the extra expense to install a transfer switch? View Quote Already mentioned, but it is absolutely worth it to buy a $50 interlock kit and spend $50 on a power inlet box. Do it right, do it safe, wife or kids can handle it when tired or whatever. There are several threads in the survival forum with pictures. |
|
Quoted:
I installed a 240v outlet outside in my backyard and backfeed my panel with a suicide cord. If you know what you're doing it can be done safely. I even have a check list of the whole hook-up and disconnect process just to be sure. View Quote Good advise also don't brown on your house !!by starting generator already hooked up, Get generator up and runining and then flip the breaker on to avoid burning up all your appliances |
|
Quoted:
Yeah, I know. That's why I said i would kill the main. I'm not familiar with the interlock kit. I'll have to look into this. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
If you energize the house wiring, it will energize the power lines - BAD JUJU! You need to disconnect your house from the power lines BEFORE you energize the house wiring. Yeah, I know. That's why I said i would kill the main. I'm not familiar with the interlock kit. I'll have to look into this. Interlock is a kit you add onto your existing breaker panel. It prevents the main breaker and the generator breaker from being turned on at the same time. You must turn off the main to turn on the generator breaker and vice-versa. An interlock combined with a dedicated generator connection (I have an outdoor, shielded male plug made/marketed specifically for a generator connection) is perfectly acceptable, compliant with codes in most areas, and is mistake proof. Suicide cords work ok as long as you don't make a mistake, the problem is that there are multiple areas where a mistake can harm or kill somebody; for the cost of an interlock and generator connection it's not worth the risk. |
|
We have prohibition from posting illegal activities. Back feeding without interlock or other code approved safety devices is illegal.
|
|
I do it. It's fine. Turn off main first or your a dumb fuck that deserves to kill someone.
It's not the right way, but when I get money in doing a transfer switch and wiring it under ground with hookups in my shed. |
|
Quoted:
We have prohibition from posting illegal activities. Back feeding without interlock or other code approved safety devices is illegal. View Quote I work for the electric company in my area and everyone in my department with a generator backwards their panel when the power is out for a long time. We also come across customers that are doing this while we're doing storm restoration. As long as it's done correctly it's not an issue. Could you post a link showing us that this is illegal please? |
|
Quoted:
I work for the electric company in my area and everyone in my department with a generator backwards their panel when the power is out for a long time. We also come across customers that are doing this while we're doing storm restoration. As long as it's done correctly it's not an issue. Could you post a link showing us that this is illegal please? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
We have prohibition from posting illegal activities. Back feeding without interlock or other code approved safety devices is illegal. I work for the electric company in my area and everyone in my department with a generator backwards their panel when the power is out for a long time. We also come across customers that are doing this while we're doing storm restoration. As long as it's done correctly it's not an issue. Could you post a link showing us that this is illegal please? Would you encourage the general public to do it this way then? |
|
Quoted:
I work for the electric company in my area and everyone in my department with a generator backwards their panel when the power is out for a long time. We also come across customers that are doing this while we're doing storm restoration. As long as it's done correctly it's not an issue. Could you post a link showing us that this is illegal please? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
We have prohibition from posting illegal activities. Back feeding without interlock or other code approved safety devices is illegal. I work for the electric company in my area and everyone in my department with a generator backwards their panel when the power is out for a long time. We also come across customers that are doing this while we're doing storm restoration. As long as it's done correctly it's not an issue. Could you post a link showing us that this is illegal please? I claim to know nothing about electricity. But I had a guy tell me one time that by doing this you are running a possibility of "cross phasing"....I cant remember exactly how he explained this scenario but the 2 phases are too closely together and can "jump or cross" inside the fuse panel and then you have explosion and fire...... Maybe you know what this guy was trying to explain and you can enlighten us. |
|
Quoted:
Would you encourage the general public to do it this way then? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
We have prohibition from posting illegal activities. Back feeding without interlock or other code approved safety devices is illegal. I work for the electric company in my area and everyone in my department with a generator backwards their panel when the power is out for a long time. We also come across customers that are doing this while we're doing storm restoration. As long as it's done correctly it's not an issue. Could you post a link showing us that this is illegal please? Would you encourage the general public to do it this way then? The missing interlock violates the NEC. Codes have the force of law in the jurisdiction that adopts them. A few yeas ago two adjacent neighbors a house down from me both had illegal back-feeds. They managed to wreck the voltage regulators on both of their gen sets. I told them I would only help them fix them if an interlock was installed. |
|
|
Quoted:
I work for the electric company in my area and everyone in my department with a generator backwards their panel when the power is out for a long time. We also come across customers that are doing this while we're doing storm restoration. As long as it's done correctly it's not an issue. Could you post a link showing us that this is illegal please? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
We have prohibition from posting illegal activities. Back feeding without interlock or other code approved safety devices is illegal. I work for the electric company in my area and everyone in my department with a generator backwards their panel when the power is out for a long time. We also come across customers that are doing this while we're doing storm restoration. As long as it's done correctly it's not an issue. Could you post a link showing us that this is illegal please? good grief. you must not like your coworkers. http://www.oshrc.gov/decisions/html_2007/06-0166.htm Facts In July 2005, Pike sent a crew to Flomaton, Alabama, after the Gulf Coast area had been damaged by a hurricane. Alabama Power Company contracted Pike to assist with repairing downed power lines and broken poles. Pike’s crew comprised six workers supervised by foreman and lineman Richard Green. The crew traveled to Flomaton on July 11 and spent the night. At 7:00 a.m. on July 12, Green and Pike linemen Ronnie Adams and Robert Mitchell met with employees from Alabama Power Company to discuss the repair work (Tr. 23-25). Green and Adams were Class A lineman. Mitchell was a Class C lineman (at the time of the hearing, he was a Class B lineman) (Tr. 56-58). An Alabama Power Company representative warned Pike’s employees to be on the lookout for portable generators. Homeowners often use portable generators as a temporary energy source when storms knock out power lines. If the homeowner hooks up the generator directly to the house’s circuit (rather than using it to power a single appliance), energy from the generator could “backfeed” from the house and re-energize the power lines (Tr. 26-27). After meeting with Alabama Power Company, Green held a meeting with the six Pike employees. He explained the work to be done and divided the men into two crews: Mitchell worked with Ryan Chamberlain and Curtis Montgomery, and Adams worked with groundman Matthew Snow and equipment operator Todd Casey (Tr. 39, 66). Green assigned Adams’s crew to replace a damaged pole and to re-hang the four lines on a three-phase tap line on Jackson Street (Tr. 37-39). Green worked with Adams’s crew until they started setting the new pole, around noon. Then Green left to work with Mitchell’s crew (Tr. 72-73). Pike was treating the power lines as de-energized because Alabama Power Company had opened the switches inside the substation (which prevented the circuit from being completed and energizing the lines). At the pole directly outside the substation designated as Y5307 on Wilkerson Street, Pike opened the set of switches on the pole, flagged, tagged, and grounded them. Pike also removed the jumpers to the phases from the switches at pole Y5307 (Exh. C-5). Green testified Pike did this despite the open switches in the substation just a few feet away “as an extra layer of protection” (Tr. 32). Also, Pike opened the set of switches and flagged, tagged, and grounded them at a pole designated as Y7929 on Ringold Street (Tr. 30-32). When operating normally, the three-phase line is energized at 7,220 volts, phase to ground (Exh. J-1; Tr. 27). The two poles (Y5307 and Y7929) were on the same power distribution line. Between these two poles, a tap power line ran down Jackson Street and terminated at a dead-end pole. The transformer located on the dead-end pole was not opened, tagged, flagged and grounded. After Green left, Adams went up in an insulated lift to repair the damaged lines. Three of the lines (the neutral, the road phase, and the field phase) were broken. The fourth line (the central line) was sagging but intact (Tr. 61). Although Adams could have repaired the sagging central line without splicing it, he chose to cut the line. The line on which Adam was working was connected by a secondary line to a house at the end of Jackson Street (referred to at the hearing as “a doctor’s house”). The homeowner had connected a portable generator to the house’s circuitry which caused electrical energy to backfeed to the line Adams was splicing, energizing it. Adams was electrocuted when he cut the line (Tr. 40, 95, 222, 269). The company has no written work rule requiring employees working on de-energized lines to wear protective rubber gloves (Tr. 40, 44). Adams was wearing leather work gloves, but not rubber gloves that day. Compliance officer Dale Schneider arrived at the site the day after Adams’s death, on July 13, 2005. Following Schneider’s investigation of the circumstances surrounding the fatality, the Secretary issued the citations that gave rise to this proceeding on January 6, 2006. ps PAY ATTENTION: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_10_17/670186__ARCHIVED_THREAD____Wiring_furnace_for_temporary_generator_connection.html&page=2#i11458305 ar-jedi |
|
Quoted:
So I finally got around to getting a generator for emergencies. I wanted to keep it simple. Should I just build a suicide cable and connect the 220 line on the generator with the 220 dryer outlet? Obviously I would kill the main power and turn off everything I do not want powered. Is it worth the extra expense to install a transfer switch? View Quote In general there are three (safe, i.e. to electrical code) ways to interconnect a generator to your household electrical system: 1) Whole-house (aka line side) transfer switch. This type of switch disconnects the power company service drop and substitutes the feed from the standby generator. This approach is generally only suitable and cost-effective for large, automated-transfer installations. The key advantage is that power is supplied to all branch circuits in the household. The generator must be sized to support the entire house power load. It also requires interaction with the power company, as the service drop will need to be disconnected and that typically means pulling the meter base. 2) Load side transfer switch. This style of transfer switch allows the generator to power pre-selected branch circuits within the house. Individual switches on the transfer panel select either utility power or generator power. These types of panels are generally inexpensive to purchase and install. The downside is that not every branch circuit will get power; so generally you select "important" branch circuits, like the refrigerator, furnace, and so on. 3) Interlock kit. Recently a new style of generator interconnect method has been introduced. Certain brands/types of main service panels accept a sliding plate mechanism called a "generator interlock". The generator feed directly connects inside the service panel on a two pole breaker at the topmost panel breaker cutout. The sliding plate mechanism allows EITHER the main breaker to be on, OR the generator feed breaker to be on, BUT not both. See attached picture. In essence this is a safe, UL-approved method of backfeeding the panel. The primary advantages of this method are that any branch circuit can receive power from the breaker, and of course purchase and installation cost are both low. The downside is that not every panel has an associated interlock kit, and moreover if the panel is currently full of breakers this also leads to complications. BUT if you are doing a new install, it makes sense to pick a service panel that has an optional generator interlock kit –– in the event that down the road you want to install a generator, it is then very straightforward. the interlock kit is a GREAT option in most circumstances, but... if: a) you can't make two adjacent breaker spaces available at the top of your panel, or b) there is no interlock kit available for your panel, or c) you can't afford to get a new suitable panel installed, then you'll need to use an adjunct transfer switch. ps: also see http://www.generlink.com/about_generlink.cfm downside: a lot of utility companies refuse to install them under the meter. ar-jedi |
|
Quoted:
Good advise also don't brown on your house !!by starting generator already hooked up, Get generator up and runining and then flip the breaker on to avoid burning up all your appliances View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
I installed a 240v outlet outside in my backyard and backfeed my panel with a suicide cord. If you know what you're doing it can be done safely. I even have a check list of the whole hook-up and disconnect process just to be sure. Good advise also don't brown on your house !!by starting generator already hooked up, Get generator up and runining and then flip the breaker on to avoid burning up all your appliances there is a guy right here on ARFCOM SF who likewise "had a process" for using a suicide cord -- and he burned up his generator (burned as in "fire") when he accidentally flipped the service panel main breaker on with the utility power present. a 200A (=48KW) POCO service drop vs portable 5KW generator head -- guess which one won? ar-jedi |
|
Quoted:
So I finally got around to getting a generator for emergencies. I wanted to keep it simple. Should I just build a suicide cable and connect the 220 line on the generator with the 220 dryer outlet? Obviously I would kill the main power and turn off everything I do not want powered. Is it worth the extra expense to install a transfer switch? View Quote btw: if your dryer outlet is an older 3 wire (L1/L2/N) type versus the newer 4 wire (L1/L2/N/GND) type, i would not even attempt to backfeed using it -- too much to go wrong there. ar-jedi |
|
Quoted:
ps PAY ATTENTION: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_10_17/670186__ARCHIVED_THREAD____Wiring_furnace_for_temporary_generator_connection.html&page=2#i11458305 ar-jedi View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Facts After Green left, Adams went up in an insulated lift to repair the damaged lines. Three of the lines (the neutral, the road phase, and the field phase) were broken. The fourth line (the central line) was sagging but intact (Tr. 61). Although Adams could have repaired the sagging central line without splicing it, he chose to cut the line. The line on which Adam was working was connected by a secondary line to a house at the end of Jackson Street (referred to at the hearing as “a doctor’s house”). The homeowner had connected a portable generator to the house’s circuitry which caused electrical energy to backfeed to the line Adams was splicing, energizing it. Adams was electrocuted when he cut the line (Tr. 40, 95, 222, 269). The company has no written work rule requiring employees working on de-energized lines to wear protective rubber gloves (Tr. 40, 44). Adams was wearing leather work gloves, but not rubber gloves that day. Compliance officer Dale Schneider arrived at the site the day after Adams’s death, on July 13, 2005. Following Schneider’s investigation of the circumstances surrounding the fatality, the Secretary issued the citations that gave rise to this proceeding on January 6, 2006. ps PAY ATTENTION: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_10_17/670186__ARCHIVED_THREAD____Wiring_furnace_for_temporary_generator_connection.html&page=2#i11458305 ar-jedi No excuse for that doctor... he should have known better, and probably had enough money to do a proper interlock/transfer-switch. And a man died because of it. |
|
When we lose power, I use a heavy gage extension cord to power the refrigerator directly. Nothing else is in critical need of power. I do not power my whole house because it does not have an interlock.
Not only could back feeding hurt a lineman working to restore service, if power comes on your generator will be killed and two neighbors, each back feeding, will kill each other's generators. |
|
|
|
Quoted:
Somewhat appropriately, this article showed up in my google search. Read and heed. http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/images/stories/submitted/backfeed_200.jpg http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/images/destroyed_motorhome.jpg View Quote Power what you need on extension cords or do it correctly. |
|
Quoted:
When we lose power, I use a heavy gage extension cord to power the refrigerator directly. Nothing else is in critical need of power. I do not power my whole house because it does not have an interlock. Not only could back feeding hurt a lineman working to restore service, if power comes on your generator will be killed and two neighbors, each back feeding, will kill each other's generators. View Quote That won't happen if you shut off your main. I am totally against back feeding but if you do it right it really isn't much different than an interlock. The interlock merely makes it so that you can't screw up and leave the main on while the generator is actively feeding the panel. |
|
Quoted:
That won't happen if you shut off your main. I am totally against back feeding but if you do it right it really isn't much different than an interlock. The interlock merely makes it so that you can't screw up and leave the main on while the generator is actively feeding the panel. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
When we lose power, I use a heavy gage extension cord to power the refrigerator directly. Nothing else is in critical need of power. I do not power my whole house because it does not have an interlock. Not only could back feeding hurt a lineman working to restore service, if power comes on your generator will be killed and two neighbors, each back feeding, will kill each other's generators. That won't happen if you shut off your main. I am totally against back feeding but if you do it right it really isn't much different than an interlock. The interlock merely makes it so that you can't screw up and leave the main on while the generator is actively feeding the panel. Which is a *GOOD* thing. It's best to make your processes as idiot-proof as possible... it's just good system design, and there is NO advantage to backfeeding-without-an-interlock, other than indulging ones own laziness or a minor cost savings. And what if your wife, a relative, neighbor, or one of your teenage sons has to hook it up (eg. you're not home when the power goes out). What if it's dark, what if you're in a hurry, what if you forget? One piece of metal to ensure you don't kill an innocent person who is trying to help you? That's a no-brainer |
|
Quoted:
We have prohibition from posting illegal activities. Back feeding without interlock or other code approved safety devices is illegal. View Quote We have a union of 50 states (plus territories) that ALL have their own unique laws and local governance. What is illegal in your area may not be illegal in others. |
|
Quoted: We have a union of 50 states (plus territories) that ALL have their own unique laws and local governance. What is illegal in your area may not be illegal in others. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: We have prohibition from posting illegal activities. Back feeding without interlock or other code approved safety devices is illegal. We have a union of 50 states (plus territories) that ALL have their own unique laws and local governance. What is illegal in your area may not be illegal in others. |
|
Quoted:
The N in NEC is for national. Since most transmission grid systems are interstate, it kinda makes sense to have a harmonized compliance. Even ERCOT extends to outside of Texas. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
We have prohibition from posting illegal activities. Back feeding without interlock or other code approved safety devices is illegal. We have a union of 50 states (plus territories) that ALL have their own unique laws and local governance. What is illegal in your area may not be illegal in others. There are areas of the country that there are no electrical codes so therefore, the NEC isn't enforced there...so doesn't apply. Not recommending that anyone ignore safety when it comes to electricity but even though there is a national electrical code, it's not a requirement to follow everywhere in the US. And, there are numerous versions of the NEC and every jurisdiction that enforces it, may enforce a different version. Ever seen an electrical code discussion on the internet somewhere? Sometimes you can have multiple people arguing that XYZ is prohibited and the other group arguing that it's allowed....and both are right....for their area. That's partly what makes electrical work so confusing for so many people. |
|
Quoted:
The N in NEC is for national. Since most transmission grid systems are interstate, it kinda makes sense to have a harmonized compliance. Even ERCOT extends to outside of Texas. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
We have prohibition from posting illegal activities. Back feeding without interlock or other code approved safety devices is illegal. We have a union of 50 states (plus territories) that ALL have their own unique laws and local governance. What is illegal in your area may not be illegal in others. As already stated, the NEC is ONLY applicable if it is adopted and enforced on a local level. Local municipalities can choose to adopt the NEC, create their own code, or adopt NO CODE AT ALL. Your prior post alluded to the fact that the discussion at hand is regarding illegal activities and somehow violates the COC, and that couldn't be any further from the truth. The fact that the NEC may be a good general code, and it is generally good advice to follow it, and numerous local governments have adopted it and enforce it, does NOT make it illegal for people in areas that have NOT adopted it to do things that violate the NEC. Sigowner lives in an area that does NOT require compliance with the NEC; Sigowner follows ALL NEC requirements to the best of his abilities despite that fact. Poor practice =/= illegal |
|
Quoted:
That won't happen if you shut off your main. I am totally against back feeding but if you do it right it really isn't much different than an interlock. The interlock merely makes it so that you can't screw up and leave the main on while the generator is actively feeding the panel. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
When we lose power, I use a heavy gage extension cord to power the refrigerator directly. Nothing else is in critical need of power. I do not power my whole house because it does not have an interlock. Not only could back feeding hurt a lineman working to restore service, if power comes on your generator will be killed and two neighbors, each back feeding, will kill each other's generators. That won't happen if you shut off your main. I am totally against back feeding but if you do it right it really isn't much different than an interlock. The interlock merely makes it so that you can't screw up and leave the main on while the generator is actively feeding the panel. yes, that is one small, minor difference between the two approaches. the other small, minor difference is that when you pull out the generator backfeed plug while the generator is running, there is lethal voltage present on the exposed copper blades. ar-jedi |
|
Had an electrician install a sub-panel where he relocated 25% of my breakers (well, fridge, furnace, etc.). Interlock separated these breakers from the main when thrown, that way when the main power came back on the rest of the house powered up, and I knew to go out and shut off the generator. Worked great and no chance of electrocuting a lineman.
|
|
Quoted:
yes, that is one small, minor difference between the two approaches. the other small, minor difference is that when you pull out the generator backfeed plug while the generator is running, there is lethal voltage present on the exposed copper blades. ar-jedi View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
When we lose power, I use a heavy gage extension cord to power the refrigerator directly. Nothing else is in critical need of power. I do not power my whole house because it does not have an interlock. Not only could back feeding hurt a lineman working to restore service, if power comes on your generator will be killed and two neighbors, each back feeding, will kill each other's generators. That won't happen if you shut off your main. I am totally against back feeding but if you do it right it really isn't much different than an interlock. The interlock merely makes it so that you can't screw up and leave the main on while the generator is actively feeding the panel. yes, that is one small, minor difference between the two approaches. the other small, minor difference is that when you pull out the generator backfeed plug while the generator is running, there is lethal voltage present on the exposed copper blades. ar-jedi Do not touch it with your tongue to see if it is working. |
|
|
My family are all electricians, nearly. We all have this set up because we know how to use it safely. It will be removed when I ever sell and move from here.
At the very least I'd suggest the mechanical interlock like was posted on page one. But i wouldn't do one for someone unless it was totally code and an ATS. |
|
Quoted:
My family are all electricians, nearly. We all have this set up because we know how to use it safely. It will be removed when I ever sell and move from here. At the very least I'd suggest the mechanical interlock like was posted on page one. But i wouldn't do one for someone unless it was totally code and an ATS. View Quote Your family are nearly electricians? WTH does that mean? They are almost electricians but not really? Is that why they backfeed instead of doing it the right way? If they are electricians (or nearly electricians) it should be stupid-simple for them to install an interlock and generator connection. I did it in 2 hours and that included rearranging some circuits to clear up the proper space for the generator breaker and running the wire through the wall to the outdoor generator connection. |
|
Quoted:
right, that could lead to additional problems. it's better to just lick and use your fingers. ar-jedi View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Do not touch it with your tongue to see if it is working. right, that could lead to additional problems. it's better to just lick and use your fingers. ar-jedi A master I worked under many years ago would actually brush his fingers over 120 V to see if it was hot. I even saw him do 240 V that was not working correctly across the two legs. He did draw the line at 440 V stuff though. |
|
Quoted:
A master I worked under many years ago would actually brush his fingers over 120 V to see if it was hot. I even saw him do 240 V that was not working correctly across the two legs. He did draw the line at 440 V stuff though. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Do not touch it with your tongue to see if it is working. right, that could lead to additional problems. it's better to just lick and use your fingers. ar-jedi A master I worked under many years ago would actually brush his fingers over 120 V to see if it was hot. I even saw him do 240 V that was not working correctly across the two legs. He did draw the line at 440 V stuff though. 120V isn't all that bad. I've been shocked by it multiple times. It's more like just a little tingle in your fingertips. |
|
Quoted:
A master I worked under many years ago would actually brush his fingers over 120 V to see if it was hot. I even saw him do 240 V that was not working correctly across the two legs. He did draw the line at 440 V stuff though. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Do not touch it with your tongue to see if it is working. right, that could lead to additional problems. it's better to just lick and use your fingers. ar-jedi A master I worked under many years ago would actually brush his fingers over 120 V to see if it was hot. I even saw him do 240 V that was not working correctly across the two legs. He did draw the line at 440 V stuff though. The old timers that work in our underground network would touch 480 with the back of their hand to check for voltage. Granted touching one phase is only 277 so I guess they only touched 277. |
|
Quoted:
Your family are nearly electricians? WTH does that mean? They are almost electricians but not really? Is that why they backfeed instead of doing it the right way? If they are electricians (or nearly electricians) it should be stupid-simple for them to install an interlock and generator connection. I did it in 2 hours and that included rearranging some circuits to clear up the proper space for the generator breaker and running the wire through the wall to the outdoor generator connection. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
My family are all electricians, nearly. We all have this set up because we know how to use it safely. It will be removed when I ever sell and move from here. At the very least I'd suggest the mechanical interlock like was posted on page one. But i wouldn't do one for someone unless it was totally code and an ATS. Your family are nearly electricians? WTH does that mean? They are almost electricians but not really? Is that why they backfeed instead of doing it the right way? If they are electricians (or nearly electricians) it should be stupid-simple for them to install an interlock and generator connection. I did it in 2 hours and that included rearranging some circuits to clear up the proper space for the generator breaker and running the wire through the wall to the outdoor generator connection. Why are you getting your panties in a bunch? I'm a group leader substation electrician for a large utility in Ohio. We work with everything from 120/240-345kv. I did 2 years in our network where everything we do is hot. I also backfeed my panel. I didn't install an interlock because I didn't feel I need one. We backfeed our station power for our substations often. I do this for a living. Those burned up generators that were posted were a result of not killing the main. And the guy from Pike broke procedure, he screwed up. When working storm restoration we fuzz the lines and work it as it its hot even if it isn't. A simple backfeed generator is no big deal for any electrical worker who understands what they're doing. Pull your meter if you don't trust your main. |
|
Quoted:
Why are you getting your panties in a bunch? I'm a group leader substation electrician for a large utility in Ohio. We work with everything from 120/240-345kv. I did 2 years in our network where everything we do is hot. I also backfeed my panel. I didn't install an interlock because I didn't feel I need one. We backfeed our station power for our substations often. I do this for a living. Those burned up generators that were posted were a result of not killing the main. And the guy from Pike broke procedure, he screwed up. When working storm restoration we fuzz the lines and work it as it its hot even if it isn't. A simple backfeed generator is no big deal for any electrical worker who understands what they're doing. Pull your meter if you don't trust your main. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
My family are all electricians, nearly. We all have this set up because we know how to use it safely. It will be removed when I ever sell and move from here. At the very least I'd suggest the mechanical interlock like was posted on page one. But i wouldn't do one for someone unless it was totally code and an ATS. Your family are nearly electricians? WTH does that mean? They are almost electricians but not really? Is that why they backfeed instead of doing it the right way? If they are electricians (or nearly electricians) it should be stupid-simple for them to install an interlock and generator connection. I did it in 2 hours and that included rearranging some circuits to clear up the proper space for the generator breaker and running the wire through the wall to the outdoor generator connection. Why are you getting your panties in a bunch? I'm a group leader substation electrician for a large utility in Ohio. We work with everything from 120/240-345kv. I did 2 years in our network where everything we do is hot. I also backfeed my panel. I didn't install an interlock because I didn't feel I need one. We backfeed our station power for our substations often. I do this for a living. Those burned up generators that were posted were a result of not killing the main. And the guy from Pike broke procedure, he screwed up. When working storm restoration we fuzz the lines and work it as it its hot even if it isn't. A simple backfeed generator is no big deal for any electrical worker who understands what they're doing. Pull your meter if you don't trust your main. I asked earlier....would you recommend the average person to feed a generator to the house in this manner? |
|
Interlock and inlet box wasnt that expensive....now my wife can set it up when im not home and i dont have to worry about manslaughter charges
|
|
Quoted:
Why are you getting your panties in a bunch? I'm a group leader substation electrician for a large utility in Ohio. We work with everything from 120/240-345kv. I did 2 years in our network where everything we do is hot. I also backfeed my panel. I didn't install an interlock because I didn't feel I need one. We backfeed our station power for our substations often. I do this for a living. Those burned up generators that were posted were a result of not killing the main. And the guy from Pike broke procedure, he screwed up. When working storm restoration we fuzz the lines and work it as it its hot even if it isn't. A simple backfeed generator is no big deal for any electrical worker who understands what they're doing. Pull your meter if you don't trust your main. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
My family are all electricians, nearly. We all have this set up because we know how to use it safely. It will be removed when I ever sell and move from here. At the very least I'd suggest the mechanical interlock like was posted on page one. But i wouldn't do one for someone unless it was totally code and an ATS. Your family are nearly electricians? WTH does that mean? They are almost electricians but not really? Is that why they backfeed instead of doing it the right way? If they are electricians (or nearly electricians) it should be stupid-simple for them to install an interlock and generator connection. I did it in 2 hours and that included rearranging some circuits to clear up the proper space for the generator breaker and running the wire through the wall to the outdoor generator connection. Why are you getting your panties in a bunch? I'm a group leader substation electrician for a large utility in Ohio. We work with everything from 120/240-345kv. I did 2 years in our network where everything we do is hot. I also backfeed my panel. I didn't install an interlock because I didn't feel I need one. We backfeed our station power for our substations often. I do this for a living. Those burned up generators that were posted were a result of not killing the main. And the guy from Pike broke procedure, he screwed up. When working storm restoration we fuzz the lines and work it as it its hot even if it isn't. A simple backfeed generator is no big deal for any electrical worker who understands what they're doing. Pull your meter if you don't trust your main. Seems to me you're the one that's got your panties in a bunch... I was just asking a question, then you got all huffy and defensive about why it's ok to do something that may be illegal. You seem to believe that humans that "know what they're doing" are impervious to making mistakes. The interlock is a safety mechanism that prevents the mistake from occurring and prevents the electrocution of anybody that happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time if the mistake were to occur. It baffles me that a guy that supposedly knows, understands, and even works on electrical lines for a living (like you've implied) would be completely ok with the average joe, know nothing, homeowner backfeeding their panel... |
|
I did it that way for 18 days after hurricane Wilma. It works, but you have to respect it and be careful.
- Remember that by doing it that way the male pins on the plug leading to the dryer outlet are hot. It's easy to forget because male pins are never supposed to be hot. - Remember that you MUST shut off your main disconnect and preferably lock it out. Follow a procedure: Main disconnect OFF and locked out Dryer breaker OFF load breakers OFF Plug cord in to generator and outlet Start generator and allow to stabilize Turn dryer breaker on Then slowly add loads ETA: Shutdown Procedure: Dryer breaker OFF Shutdown generator Unplug DO NOT shut down the generator when it is under load. |
|
Quoted:
In general there are three (safe, i.e. to electrical code) ways to interconnect a generator to your household electrical system: 1) Whole-house (aka line side) transfer switch. This type of switch disconnects the power company service drop and substitutes the feed from the standby generator. This approach is generally only suitable and cost-effective for large, automated-transfer installations. The key advantage is that power is supplied to all branch circuits in the household. The generator must be sized to support the entire house power load. It also requires interaction with the power company, as the service drop will need to be disconnected and that typically means pulling the meter base. 2) Load side transfer switch. This style of transfer switch allows the generator to power pre-selected branch circuits within the house. Individual switches on the transfer panel select either utility power or generator power. These types of panels are generally inexpensive to purchase and install. The downside is that not every branch circuit will get power; so generally you select "important" branch circuits, like the refrigerator, furnace, and so on. 3) Interlock kit. Recently a new style of generator interconnect method has been introduced. Certain brands/types of main service panels accept a sliding plate mechanism called a "generator interlock". The generator feed directly connects inside the service panel on a two pole breaker at the topmost panel breaker cutout. The sliding plate mechanism allows EITHER the main breaker to be on, OR the generator feed breaker to be on, BUT not both. See attached picture. In essence this is a safe, UL-approved method of backfeeding the panel. The primary advantages of this method are that any branch circuit can receive power from the breaker, and of course purchase and installation cost are both low. The downside is that not every panel has an associated interlock kit, and moreover if the panel is currently full of breakers this also leads to complications. BUT if you are doing a new install, it makes sense to pick a service panel that has an optional generator interlock kit –– in the event that down the road you want to install a generator, it is then very straightforward. the interlock kit is a GREAT option in most circumstances, but... if: a) you can't make two adjacent breaker spaces available at the top of your panel, or b) there is no interlock kit available for your panel, or c) you can't afford to get a new suitable panel installed, then you'll need to use an adjunct transfer switch. ps: also see http://www.generlink.com/about_generlink.cfm downside: a lot of utility companies refuse to install them under the meter. ar-jedi http://wopr.losdos.dyndns.org/gallery2/d/47968-2/2.jpg http://wopr.losdos.dyndns.org/gallery2/d/50736-2/IMG_1784.jpg http://wopr.losdos.dyndns.org/gallery2/d/50738-2/IMG_1782.jpg View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
So I finally got around to getting a generator for emergencies. I wanted to keep it simple. Should I just build a suicide cable and connect the 220 line on the generator with the 220 dryer outlet? Obviously I would kill the main power and turn off everything I do not want powered. Is it worth the extra expense to install a transfer switch? In general there are three (safe, i.e. to electrical code) ways to interconnect a generator to your household electrical system: 1) Whole-house (aka line side) transfer switch. This type of switch disconnects the power company service drop and substitutes the feed from the standby generator. This approach is generally only suitable and cost-effective for large, automated-transfer installations. The key advantage is that power is supplied to all branch circuits in the household. The generator must be sized to support the entire house power load. It also requires interaction with the power company, as the service drop will need to be disconnected and that typically means pulling the meter base. 2) Load side transfer switch. This style of transfer switch allows the generator to power pre-selected branch circuits within the house. Individual switches on the transfer panel select either utility power or generator power. These types of panels are generally inexpensive to purchase and install. The downside is that not every branch circuit will get power; so generally you select "important" branch circuits, like the refrigerator, furnace, and so on. 3) Interlock kit. Recently a new style of generator interconnect method has been introduced. Certain brands/types of main service panels accept a sliding plate mechanism called a "generator interlock". The generator feed directly connects inside the service panel on a two pole breaker at the topmost panel breaker cutout. The sliding plate mechanism allows EITHER the main breaker to be on, OR the generator feed breaker to be on, BUT not both. See attached picture. In essence this is a safe, UL-approved method of backfeeding the panel. The primary advantages of this method are that any branch circuit can receive power from the breaker, and of course purchase and installation cost are both low. The downside is that not every panel has an associated interlock kit, and moreover if the panel is currently full of breakers this also leads to complications. BUT if you are doing a new install, it makes sense to pick a service panel that has an optional generator interlock kit –– in the event that down the road you want to install a generator, it is then very straightforward. the interlock kit is a GREAT option in most circumstances, but... if: a) you can't make two adjacent breaker spaces available at the top of your panel, or b) there is no interlock kit available for your panel, or c) you can't afford to get a new suitable panel installed, then you'll need to use an adjunct transfer switch. ps: also see http://www.generlink.com/about_generlink.cfm downside: a lot of utility companies refuse to install them under the meter. ar-jedi http://wopr.losdos.dyndns.org/gallery2/d/47968-2/2.jpg http://wopr.losdos.dyndns.org/gallery2/d/50736-2/IMG_1784.jpg http://wopr.losdos.dyndns.org/gallery2/d/50738-2/IMG_1782.jpg What does that mean? (NVM, I think I see it now) I'm screwed, my panel is flat full (200 amp). I *think* it could be consolidated since they put a lot of trivial loads on their own 20 amp breaker). How can you tell if your panel can accept an interlock panel? Would a panel from 1994 (when the house was built) accept an interlock, were they available or as popular back then? Thanks, |
|
Merlin, i would imagine they make a kit for every brand panel. You can probably use tandem breakers to free up some room. Tell us what panel you have and im sure somebody can provide some links or more specific info.
|
|
Quoted:
What does that mean? (NVM, I think I see it now) I'm screwed, my panel is flat full (200 amp). I *think* it could be consolidated since they put a lot of trivial loads on their own 20 amp breaker). View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
What does that mean? (NVM, I think I see it now) I'm screwed, my panel is flat full (200 amp). I *think* it could be consolidated since they put a lot of trivial loads on their own 20 amp breaker). *most* interlock kits require 2 adjacent breaker slots located near the main breaker. for square-D setups, that *usually* means 2 breaker slots in the upper right hand corner of the service panel. if your panel is full up, as noted above you may be able to install a pair of tandem breakers (in panel slots which accept the tandems, not all will). installing a pair of tandems will free up two positions, and then you can move a couple of breakers to make the two positions where the interlock needs them. Quoted:
How can you tell if your panel can accept an interlock panel? Would a panel from 1994 (when the house was built) accept an interlock, were they available or as popular back then? there are three routes to an interlock setup: 1) OEM interlock kit. 2) OEM panel cover replacement kit. 3) third-party interlock kit. item 1 (OEM interlock kit) is cheap, easy to install, and does not void the service panel manufacture's warranty or UL listing. however, not every panel from every manufacturer has an OEM interlock kit available for it. the majority of modern square-d panels (both Homeline [aluminum busbar] type, and QO [copper busbar] type) do have applicable square-D interlock kits. typical kits are $40-80, and are easily available online or in some cases at home depot/lowes. item 2 (OEM panel cover replacement kit) is not as cheap, just as easy to install, and as with the above does not void the service panel manufacture's warranty or UL listing. in this case you basically obtain a replacement front cover for the panel, and it has the interlock feature pre-installed and ready to go. cutler-hammer takes this approach for some of their panels. the replacement front panel can run up to about $125 though, and you will probably need to get it through an electrical supply house. i will post pictures of just such as setup below. see also link. item 3 (third-party interlock kit) is cheap, easy o install, but DOES void the service panel manufacture's warranty and/or UL listing. the facts are though that the number of types of service panels covered by third party interlock kits is actually quite large, so no matter what panel you have there is generally a third-party interlock kit available for it. and given the choice of having an "non-UL-listed" third party interlock panel configuration versus using simply backfeeding via dryer outlet, i will take the "non-UL-listed" third party interlock panel configuration every time. third-party interlock kit vendors include: http://www.interlockkit.com/interlockselect2.html http://www.nooutage.com/interlock_kits.htm http://natramelec.com/ ar-jedi |
|
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.