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Posted: 5/22/2015 8:27:49 PM EDT
We are in the process of renoing our kitchen and although we both like open concept kitchen, dining room, living room style houses...we can't do that in this house..
So..I want to put a pass through between the kitchen and living room. My question is..how wide can I go? I plan on using a sistered 2 x 10 as the header. It will be going in this wall. It is 9' 2" from the edge of the picture frame to the end of the wall. The edge of the picture frame would be the furthest I would go.  Now..this is what puzzles me. The house is 30+ years old and does not have trusses. It has rafters supported in the middle of the house. How has this section of the roof not caved in?  |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 11:12:14 AM EDT
[#1]
Can you provide a pic of the attic space looking in the same direction?
Just being nosy, is that a lake in the pic of the window? Gorgeous color! |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 11:56:18 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can you provide a pic of the attic space looking in the same direction? Just being nosy, is that a lake in the pic of the window? Gorgeous color! I can but you won't see anything except blown in insulation.  I'm at work now so won't be able to post a pic until tomorrow morning. No..unfortunately it isn't a lake..it's the 13th hole of our local golf course. |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 12:42:15 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I can but you won't see anything except blown in insulation.
I'm at work now so won't be able to post a pic until tomorrow morning. No..unfortunately it isn't a lake..it's the 13th hole of our local golf course. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Can you provide a pic of the attic space looking in the same direction? Just being nosy, is that a lake in the pic of the window? Gorgeous color! I can but you won't see anything except blown in insulation.
I'm at work now so won't be able to post a pic until tomorrow morning. No..unfortunately it isn't a lake..it's the 13th hole of our local golf course. Ahh, forgot where you live. 
What I'm curious about if there is an upset or flush beam carrying the ceiling joist/ collar tie that lands on the wall that you want to put the pass through in... It's a common method of framing here. |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 1:30:10 PM EDT
[#4]
It has rafters supported in the middle of the house.
How has this section of the roof not caved in? There is a weight bearing wall under the overlap most likely. It will be aligned with bearing walls/posts all the way to the foundation. |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 1:48:12 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ahh, forgot where you live. What I'm curious about if there is an upset or flush beam carrying the ceiling joist/ collar tie that lands on the wall that you want to put the pass through in... It's a common method of framing here. I will dig down through the insulation and take a picture. I never really paid attention to that the few times I was in the attic. |
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Posted: 5/24/2015 10:54:52 AM EDT
[#6]
While you're up there could you take a look at the area above what looks like ballusters in the one pic? I assume that lines up with the kitchen wall but I'm not certain.
I wonder if the house was renovated at some point and if there is already a LVL or common beam at that location??? |
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Posted: 5/24/2015 1:09:30 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: While you're up there could you take a look at the area above what looks like ballusters in the one pic? I assume that lines up with the kitchen wall but I'm not certain. I wonder if the house was renovated at some point and if there is already a LVL or common beam at that location??? Unless I crawl through 30 feet of blown in insulation I won't be able to get pics. The attic entrance is at the other end of the house. I do remember that the rafters ended in the middle of the house and were level from one end to the other. So whatever they are sitting on was either there from when the house was built or if it was renoed the beam goes from one end to the other. The ballisters you see in the pic don't have any load on them though..they are all loose. From what you guys are saying..it has me believing there is a beam in the attic.. I will dig down and take pics. |
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Posted: 5/24/2015 1:38:50 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Unless I crawl through 30 feet of blown in insulation..... snip I don't envy you. Last time I did that it was hot and I came out of the attic looking tared and feathered! |
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Posted: 5/24/2015 4:08:41 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't envy you. Last time I did that it was hot and I came out of the attic looking tared and feathered! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Unless I crawl through 30 feet of blown in insulation..... snip I don't envy you. Last time I did that it was hot and I came out of the attic looking tared and feathered! lol..No worries about me doing it either.. |
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Posted: 5/24/2015 4:15:07 PM EDT
[#10]
Hope you like pausing the TV every time the water is turned on. We have an open floor plan and I have seriously considered putting in walls.
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Posted: 5/24/2015 5:07:47 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hope you like pausing the TV every time the water is turned on. We have an open floor plan and I have seriously considered putting in walls. never thought of that..but I have the remote and control the volume. 
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Posted: 5/26/2015 7:02:11 PM EDT
[#12]
finally crawled up in the attic..sort of. I hope these pics show what you folks want. I learned something too.The rafters don't meet in the middle of the house, they meet above that wall.
I took this right beside the attic hatch. When I moved the insulation I could see those 3 pieces of wood.  This is the same spot..just on the other side of the 2x4.  And down the attic towards the kitchen. As best I can tell those 2x4's coming down from the top part of the rafter are directly above the wall I want to put the pass thru in.  and yes I know about the vermiculite insulation. It is in one corner of the attic and I had it tested for asbestos..it contains 2%. |
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Posted: 5/27/2015 9:02:24 AM EDT
[#13]
Trying to understand where the attic access door is located... I'm assuming all of the recent pics were taking while on a ladder in the opening, correct? Going back to the second pic in your first post, is the attic access off to the right and against the soffit that has the balusters?
ETA- Are those three flat boards at the ceiling forming the top of the soffit? |
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Posted: 5/27/2015 3:35:21 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't envy you. Last time I did that it was hot and I came out of the attic looking tared and feathered! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Unless I crawl through 30 feet of blown in insulation..... snip I don't envy you. Last time I did that it was hot and I came out of the attic looking tared and feathered! Use a small garden rake to move the insulation. Rake it back when you are done. The 'adjustable' ones work nicely. |
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Posted: 5/27/2015 3:49:13 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Trying to understand where the attic access door is located... I'm assuming all of the recent pics were taking while on a ladder in the opening, correct? Going back to the second pic in your first post, is the attic access off to the right and against the soffit that has the balusters? ETA- Are those three flat boards at the ceiling forming the top of the soffit? Would it help if I removed one of those butt ugly ceiling tiles in the kitchen beside the wall I want to put the pass thru in so you can get a look (hopefully) at the top of the wall? Or..I can take another picture.  The wall with no sheet rock is the one I want to cut a big ass hole in. The front of the house is on the right in the pic. |
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Posted: 5/27/2015 4:00:10 PM EDT
[#16]
I wouldn't go over 5 feet in that situation with a 2x10 header
personally I would use a 12" lvl removing one top plate spanning 8' in the clear with 3 jacks on each end make sure you add support underneath at the new point loads For what its worth You could knock out all the walls using properly sized beams pushed into the attic and have a smooth ceiling much more cost and work but it's what I do for a living |
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Posted: 5/27/2015 5:18:38 PM EDT
[#17]
Thanks for the 3rd batch of pics, Striker, that helped.
I would follow Handydave's lead and use a double 12" LVL with triple jacks. It looks like if you went that route the underside of the beam's trim could be adjusted to match the height of the soffit on the other side of the room for some eye candy. Would you prefer a beam below the ceiling joist or flush with the ceiling joist like Handydave mentioned as an alternate? Just to add to what Handydave and Brickeye mentioned... The post carrying the new beam shouldn't just rest on the subfloor or a single floor joist. It should be transferred to the beam or foundation wall below the floor with solid wood blocking. |
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Posted: 5/27/2015 5:25:40 PM EDT
[#18]
thanks for the advice guys. that is more work then I want to get into..(I wouldn't attempt anything structural myself) and we didn't include contracting that out in our reno budget..
So..looks like you saved me a bunch of work.  hope my wife doesn't see this...  |
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Posted: 5/27/2015 5:28:03 PM EDT
[#19]
She'll probably still love you. You'll know soon enough
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Posted: 5/27/2015 5:44:23 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: She'll probably still love you. You'll know soon enough "honey..some guys on the internet said you can't have your pass thru unless we spend a lot of money!" |
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Posted: 5/27/2015 5:54:39 PM EDT
[#21]
I was done for the day and logged out but-
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Posted: 5/27/2015 6:20:49 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was done for the day and logged out but- |
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Posted: 5/27/2015 6:52:37 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
she hasn't thrown blankets and a pillow on the sofa yet..I might come through this okay!
Hard to tell in these situations, it's still early in the evening with too much time to think... Maybe her favorite restaurant has space available? You guys take care and good luck with your project! |
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Posted: 5/27/2015 7:08:03 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hard to tell in these situations, it's still early in the evening with too much time to think... Maybe her favorite restaurant has space available? You guys take care and good luck with your project! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: she hasn't thrown blankets and a pillow on the sofa yet..I might come through this okay! Hard to tell in these situations, it's still early in the evening with too much time to think... Maybe her favorite restaurant has space available? You guys take care and good luck with your project! |
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Posted: 5/28/2015 6:48:09 AM EDT
[#25]
It's not very difficult to do the drop header at all
It may cost you about $200 in materials You and a buddy/wife could easily do it in a day You'll regret not doing it |
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Posted: 5/28/2015 11:08:29 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's not very difficult to do the drop header at all It may cost you about $200 in materials You and a buddy/wife could easily do it in a day You'll regret not doing it |
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Posted: 5/28/2015 11:51:36 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
$200 I could live with..risking the structural integrity of the house because I have no idea what I'm doing...isn't something that excites me. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It's not very difficult to do the drop header at all It may cost you about $200 in materials You and a buddy/wife could easily do it in a day You'll regret not doing it Understanding what you can (and cannot) accomplish is worth a LOT of money. Get a bid if she is still hot on it. |
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Posted: 5/28/2015 6:15:03 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Understanding what you can (and cannot) accomplish is worth a LOT of money. Get a bid if she is still hot on it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: It's not very difficult to do the drop header at all It may cost you about $200 in materials You and a buddy/wife could easily do it in a day You'll regret not doing it Understanding what you can (and cannot) accomplish is worth a LOT of money. Get a bid if she is still hot on it. I had assumed..if it was a load bearing wall..I would have to put up a temp wall, cut out the hole and install a "header" like you do in a doorway.. or is that what you guys said..in your contractor speak?  ETA..regarding point load..the basement is finished and there is a wall below this one. the exception is..the kitchen wall is 11 feet from the exterior wall and the one downstairs is only 10 feet. |
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Posted: 5/29/2015 9:20:00 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I had assumed..if it was a load bearing wall..I would have to put up a temp wall, cut out the hole and install a "header" like you do in a doorway.. or is that what you guys said..in your contractor speak? Yes ETA..regarding point load..the basement is finished and there is a wall below this one. the exception is..the kitchen wall is 11 feet from the exterior wall and the one downstairs is only 10 feet. They're probably aligned. I think the dimensional difference that you noticed is that the basement wall is much thicker than the framed wall above.. The basement cement / cmu block wall is probably 12" thick then add furring and drywall and you're near a 12" discrepancy. This isn't at all complicated. Each time you posted you added a little more information that filled in the blanks. My biggest concern was what was carrying the ceiling in the adjoining space but if you install a LVL below the kitchen ceiling joist the LVL should carry whatever beam is up there and buried in the insulation. This isn't an apples to apples comparison because you have a basement bearing wall below but it describes the blocking for the point load at 40 seconds- LINK In your case, the blocking would be installed on top of the basement wall's top plate to fill the space between your kitchen floor's- floor joist. That's it in a nut shell. ETA- when we're talking about jacks... it's just three studs under each end of the LVL to carry the load to the floor. It's nice to have all of that wood for the trim phase too. |
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Posted: 5/29/2015 9:48:13 AM EDT
[#30]
Thanks Bill.
this all makes sense now.  unfortunately he basement is completely finished (split entrance house) and I don't want to get into tearing down the ceiling downstairs.She who must be obeyed is going to have to manage without the pass thru. |
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Posted: 5/29/2015 11:58:07 AM EDT
[#31]
If you are installing new kitchen flooring you could cut holes in the subfloor to install the blocking
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Posted: 5/29/2015 1:13:55 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you are installing new kitchen flooring you could cut holes in the subfloor to install the blocking |
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Posted: 5/29/2015 1:36:29 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am..but how would I deal with the point load being 1 foot away from the top plate of the wall down stairs? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If you are installing new kitchen flooring you could cut holes in the subfloor to install the blocking Cut a small hole in the floor and you can see where the wall below is As another poster stated the wall likely stacks and the foundation wall is the 12" discrepancy Depending on what's inside the basement wall you may need to add a few studs in the lower wall You essentially want to create s column from the header all the way to the foundation |
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Posted: 5/29/2015 2:56:19 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Cut a small hole in the floor and you can see where the wall below is As another poster stated the wall likely stacks and the foundation wall is the 12" discrepancy Depending on what's inside the basement wall you may need to add a few studs in the lower wall You essentially want to create s column from the header all the way to the foundation Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: If you are installing new kitchen flooring you could cut holes in the subfloor to install the blocking Cut a small hole in the floor and you can see where the wall below is As another poster stated the wall likely stacks and the foundation wall is the 12" discrepancy Depending on what's inside the basement wall you may need to add a few studs in the lower wall You essentially want to create s column from the header all the way to the foundation |
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Posted: 5/29/2015 9:00:30 PM EDT
[#35]
well..I came up with a plan B that the boss likes. We are going to create our pass thru by opening the wall up between the studs. We wanted it for natural light and to get more cool air from the ac into the kitchen.
Not sure what it's going to look like but it's nothing some drywall can't fix if it goes south. |
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