I need to replace my main water line shutoff valve. The guys who came out to put in my remote meter left me with a leak in the main shutoff valve. I am planning on installing a brass 1/4 turn ball valve. Pipe diameter is 1". I have limited experience with soldering. I remodeled my daughters' bathroom and plumbed the shower with copper pipe. It was my first time soldering, I made many connections and soldered everything in, and I have no leaks. So I think I can handle a solder job like my main valve.

I'm wondering what the best way to remove the old valve would be. Should I just heat it up and tap it off the pipes? Should I cut it off with a hacksaw? If cut with hacksaw...would you just solder two pieces of 1" pipe into both sides of the valve, then use two couplings to attach them to the existing pipe?

Given that I'm a novice, I'm thinking the fewer soldered unions the less likely I'll screw up a joint and develop a leak. So I'm thinking if I just heat the existing valve and pull it off the pipe away from the wall, it should probably move easily shouldn't it? I'll attach a picture to show what I'm considering....

Any tips on this sort of a job? I thought about sharkbites, but the plumbing supply guy said he'd never use one on a main shutoff valve. I'm not a big compression fitting guy, but its been suggested. I would feel safer with solder. But am I missing any options?

Another question I have, is about the copper pipe after the meter...notice how its gone from 1" down to 3/4"? Meter guys said that was weird and not typical. I'm not a plumber, but I don't consider them to be either...so I'm wondering if this could be the culprit to my lower than optimal water pressure...should I tear it out and install 1" pipe out of the meter? The meter guys said they could install a 1" meter if I chose to upgrade the pipes to 1" with no fuss.  

Thanks.

Is your valve soldered to the pipes or held in place with nuts?

Anyway...

1).The store guy is correct.  Do not use sharkbites there.  I used this stuff here at home once and ended-up removing it and replacing for a soldered splice.  It works OK as a temporary emergency fix.

2).Solder or attach the valve and splices there with nuts such as used in sinks.    

3) Do not use a hacksaw to cut the pipe.  If needed use pipe cutters.  You will need an even and smooth cut that a hacksaw cannot do.  


Most decent plumbing stores sell all the stuff you will need.  I got all the stuff for my home remodel in Home Depot and Lowe's.

As tools you will need the pipe cutter, a deburring tool to clean the pipes' edges, a torch and a flameproof fabric that you use to protect the surroundings of the area you will solder.  

You also need the pipe splices, solder and flux.  

YouTube has tons of videos showing the how-to's.  

Here's a crazy thought: call a plumber.

Nothing wrong with sharkbite fittings, they have been in used for years.

The valve is soldered in place.

As for calling a plumber, that's a stellar suggestion...thanks for giving me such insight. All cynicism aside, I probably could, but I would like to do this myself.

Tighten/replace the packing?

This. They are the best way to quickly and efficiently replace a fitting. If you were to take the old one off and try to re solder a new one on, you would need to clean the existing pipe ends of any contaminates and make sure that the pipe was dry when you are soldering it back together. Do you have someone at the municipal side to turn the water off?

You need to shut the water off at the curb, as the second you cut the pipe on the one side of the valve, water will pour in.  Do you know where there shutoff is or contacted the utility to do so for you? That is the hardest part of this job.

Otherwise its cut, cut, clean, and solder in a new valve.  

You have 1" coming in and should keep 1" through for equal pressure.  The change of pipe size (and resulting pressure loss) is the biggest complaint for new tankless hot water heater installs.  My neighbor is a plumber and het gets those calls every week to fix what the box store plumbers doing the installs screwed up.    

Easy fix.....if you can sweat copper.  

You need a pretty hot torch.  I would probably do it with oxy/acetylene but MAPP might do it too.  Propane won't get hot enough quick enough IMO.  

Shut off at the curb.  

Drain the house lines.

Loosen the union near the meter.

Heat the joint that is on the supply side of the valve until the solder melts and remove.  

Reassemble the new shut off and install, cleaning the joint really well and using plenty of flux.  Little trick to keeping a small amount of water backed up away from the joint you are sweating is to pack a small amount of bread in the line.  By the time you get done sweating the line, it'll have turned soggy and shortly after will dissolve.  



Quick question though.....is the valve leaking or is it just the pipe sweating really badly?  Moisture in the basement combined with very cold water (coming out of winter the water in municipal systems is  very cold) will cause condensation....potentially a lot of condensation. It does appear that you have a lot of condensation on the pipe because I can see the condensation all the way up the pipe.

If you are going to replace with a ball valve, get a full port ball valve.

Have enough buckets on hand to catch all of the drain down water.

If I were doing it, I'd get a threaded ball valve and some nipples to mate to the valve.  

The reason - ball valves are massive and have plastic seals.  Sweating the two pipes to the valve with a normal homeowner's torch, even MAPP gas, will likely raise the entire ball valve to a high temperature and risk damaging the seals.  

This can be avoided in its entirety through the use of a threaded valve and nipples (purchased or made).



P.S. - The meter replacement resulted in a leak.  That needs to be fixed - by THEM.  

P.P.S. - Is it just a loose packing, fixed by tightening the nut over the packing?

P.P.P.S. - The leaking valve is on the street side of the meter.  That, too, makes it THEIR problem.  Your responsibility starts at the exit port of the meter.

P.P.P.P.S. - Replacing that valve will require shutting down the water main out at the street.  That also makes it THEIR problem.

There is a curb stop out there (AKA 'corporate valve').

They use it if you do not pay the bill.

Okay, still, it looks to me as if it is their problem, not the home owner's.

It sure would be nice if a little twist of the packing nut (or whatever it's called) stopped the leak.

I second having the ball valve with threaded nipples if you decide to solder it on. Those plastic seals heat up real fast.


In my experience THEY would not put in a shut off valve in the house before the meter as it would allow someone who isn't the most honest to steal water if they felt like it. My bet is that it was done by a previous owner. I don't know if THEY would fix something that THEY didn't do, or authorize for that matter.

Why make so much work for yourself ? I agree with the above poster regarding condensation. Also I'd just rebuild the packing in that gate valve if that is what is leaking.

As someone who works for the city water dept, most service lines into the home are the responsibility of the home owner.  The corp tap on the main is the city's and the water meter is theirs as well.  Everything else is the on the homeowner to maintain.  Every city is different.  call your local water department and find out.

While the meter is almost invariably theirs the line is more likely yours from the edge of the property or a 'corporate valve' off the main.

Moving the meter inside does not normally change the ownership of the line feeding it.

If you own the line to it, why is the meter inside your house?

Heck, why is the meter in your house, at all?  All of ours are out at curbside?

This. Replace the packing for about $2 and 3 minutes of time.

Freeze protection

The towns around here require a mechanical fitting be used on the first valve in the house. So we use an AY Mcdonald 1" CTS compression fitting.

As to increasing the pipe sizing after the meter, that all depends on your water usage.  If you use lots of fixtures simultaneously, than I'd consider it, but if it hasn't been an issue, then don't bother.

Is the meter more vulnerable to freezing up than the water line, itself?  Wouldn't it be kept warm by the water supply?

Our meters are all at the curb.  They all stay about 2 feet underground and never freeze.  

Of course, it doesn't get cold here for nearly as long as it does up in the great frozen north.

That valve you have is rebuildable.  Just sayin.


ETA:  Already covered.

It is not all that hard to put the line as deep as needed.
Reading a meter 10 feet down gets a little tougher.

In Nashua, NH we had a corporate valve about 8 feet down that needed a LONG T-handle wench to reach with a 'special' end.
The lines came back up under the basement slab and meters in the basement.
Many had been upgraded to a remote  electric readout on the outside of the house.

I had a corporate valve fail at one time.
The town water had to replace it.

Another vote for rebuilding the valve.
Sweating in a new valve is not as easy a job for a novice as it seems.
No way I'd use a compression fitting.
You'll want to put insulation on those pipes and get a dehumidifier down there.

Like others have said, It's hard to tell if that's just condensation, or if there's a leak. Considering that I see water droplets on all of the pipes, on both sides of the valve, and on both sides of the meter, I'm willing to bet it's condensation.

That valve has a packing nut. If the valve is leaking around the valve stem, tightening the packing nut could help stop the leak. If it's bad enough, you may need to repack it.

As for the 1" pipe, yes, 1" pipe will help maintain higher pressures at higher flow rates. However, if you're 3/4" pipe starts right there after the meter, then I'd assume that the entire house is plumbed in 3/4". Any change over is going to be big work. I wouldn't touch it unless you plan to replumb the whole house.

Sort of, it is certainly more prone to damage, so most meters here (if not all), the bottom plate is designed to break apart if it freezes.

I appreciate all the responses. The condensation is a small issue, my reloading bench is outside that room . The drip is from the packing nut. The guys who installed the water meter cranked it down gorilla tight, and when I attempted to shut the main off to work on a shower, the valve wouldn't budge. I loosened the packing nut an 1/8 turn and the valve would again move. The drip intensity remained the same whether the packing nut was cinched down or not. Its dripping about 1 drop every 3 minutes. I was very worried about them cracking that packing nut the way they torqued it down.

Anyway, I know rebuilding the packing nut would be a quicker, cheaper fix, but I'm looking to upgrade the valve. I don't like gate valves and my water is full of calcium, and its very hard water, so most of the valves have a lot of corrosion all over them. I figure the ball valve is less susceptible to the effects of that nasty corrosion...maybe I'm ill informed?

I have checked with the water company, and the line at the curb valve is my responsibility into the home. They said their only responsibility is for the meter itself.

As far as the ball valve is concerned, I was under the impression that the teflon that the seal is made of is a high temperature material. The plumbing supply sales guy said that the valve seal is rated to nearly 600 degrees before the teflon is affected. He said that as long as you heated the pipe first, and then heated the end of the brass fitting until the solder flowed that it wouldn't be an issue to solder it in.

The curb shutoff is pretty far from my house. I live on a private lane of 3 homes. I'm about 400 feet off the street, up a hill at about a 30 degree incline. I imagine I'd have some water backflow out of the pipe when I break the connection at the existing valve, but as long as I could get that water shutoff at the street, it would have to flow "uphill" to dump out the opened pipe. I want to be able to turn the street valve, so I can test and shutoff the valve immediately if I detect a leak. I just don't want to be the first guy to turn the street valve in 50 years and have it break with me responsible for the repairs. Does anybody know if its standard operating procedure for them to test the valve when they un-earth it? Unfortunately I'm looking at a delay in getting to it do to my schedule, but I appreciate all the help and input that I'm receiving here.


Thanks!

Your water provider can turn the valve at the curb off and back on.

Sometimes the curb valve doesn't hold tight.  If there is a union on the downstream side of the curb valve, you can open it to compensate for this.


You will also have drain down from your house.  Open the sinks upstairs and down stairs first to minimize the drain down.

I'm all for upgrades but how many times do you have to close that valve? I can probably count on one hand how many times I've needed to kill the water for the whole house. You'll need to turn off the water at the street either way so it may be worth upgrading.

Closer to 700F

The other plastics used in less expensive ball valves routinely give it up, especially if you are using a smaller torch.

Off topic but still a safety issue. Your water meter equipment isn't electrically shunted. Even if your electrical panel was installed during the era when it was legal to attach the EGC to its closest cold water line you still had to install a bonding jumper at  the metering equipment and across any pipe unions. Pick up 2 water pipe ground clamps and a piece of #4 solid bare copper. ETA if I was doing the valve, I'd first hook up the meter shunt wire or use a battery jumper cable before your body accidentally becomes in series between the house and street piping. I've seen water company workers and plumbers use a battery jumper cable even when the wire shunt was present



Shunted across all the equipment. On this panel placement I got Inspector pre-approval because the water line falls within the 30"x36"x78"(W x D x H) unobstructed panel  work clearances.


Sandpaper the piping clean before affixing the clamps

make sure a ball valve at that location is code, a gate valve may be specifically called for

You don't need to shut off the water at the street to replace the packing. Just turn off the valve and let it slowly dribble while you wrap the new packing around the stem. You probably won't have more than a cup of water leak by the time you have the new packing in. Make sure to clean the scale off the stem with some fine steel wool so the deposits won't tear the new packing.

I had this issue 10 years ago in my house and I didn't want to risk shutting if off at the street since my street shutoff valve has not moved since 1979. If that broke I would have had to dig 8' down to fix it. I own a curbside shutoff tool, but I don't want to use it unless there is no other option.

Use Teflon packing.
It often takes two tries to get enough in.
Wrap, tighten nu, wrap again, tighten again.

They overcharge for the little packs at the store, but it works way better than graphited string.

I have a whole roll and have used about half.

Common SnSb5 lead-free solder melts at about 450F. It becomes plasticy, sort of melted before that though.

I think the real issue is the low heat rate from DIY torches and the inexperience of actually doing the soldering of a heavy gage valve.  It is easy to overheat the entire valve body and still have a cold solder joint, if you don't know what you're doing.

That's why you need a torch that gets hot.  You heat the joint quickly, solder it, then cool it down before it has time to get into the valve material.  

I learned that the hard way!

Yes. You need both mating surfaces hot enough that the solder flows through capillary action and covers at least 75% of the mating area. Melted solder alone won't flow enough if the mating surfaces aren't hot enough.

The hot torch is key so that you can heat the mating surface quickly, but the temperature resistance from the rest of the valve body slow the heat transfer enough that you only heat the mating surface of the valve body and not the plastic internals.

Looks good!

Me too.



I no longer use a propane torch, MAPP gas only.
 

Since I have a 'B' tank for oxy-actylene I have had a turbo torch (air-acetylene) for many years.
With the correct tip it makes short work of plumbing soldered joints.

Simple regulator for the acetylene, replaceable tips in different sizes.

The 12 foot hose makes it far easier to use than anything with a canister on a torch.