As I mentioned in an earlier thread I have been looking into different Churches. There are quite a few that preach pacifism. I find myself against these ideas but I have heard countless times that you have to change your life to fit with Gods laws not change laws to suit you. I'm not sure I can ever accept the idea of just lying down and letting others do as they please.



It makes me wonder if I might just be too sinful to be willing to consider it.



What are your opinions on it? Misguided teaching or something more need to consider today?


Ets I should clarify I am not claiming Pacifism to be the truth. I just know it is a teaching among some churches.

try Presbyterian PCA, not a pacifist in the bunch.Hard line Bible believing conservatives..though there are some liberals trying to change such things with in the session.


Presbyterian Church in America

Pacifism isn't letting another do to you whatever they want.  What Church would tell you to stand aside and let someone assault your wife?  Bring up that example and listen to the response.  IMHO,  as Christians, it is our responsibility to defend the weak from the strong.  I truly do believe that evil walks the earth and we can't sit back and do nothing about it.

Thanks for bringing up a vital issue!

Loving yourself is a prerequisite to loving others. If you hate yourself, you will hate others.

How can you "preach the Good News to others,"  (the Great Commission), if someone attempts to or succeeds in taking your life?

There are some 1.3B Catholics and I can't speak for all of them. I only speak for myself. I am a Roman Catholic and have found this to be helpful:

Catholic Guide to Se;f Defense



WORD OF GOD.
U.S. CONSTITUTION.

good enough for me!

Peace and Blessings, Brother!

SIMPLY PUT:



Catechism of the Catholic Church # 2264

The bible changed.  

The first colonists came over with the Geneva Bible.  That set up the belief that God and his laws were greater than kings and what they wanted.  Ministers of the pre American Revolution days often preached that the king and his rules/laws were counter to what God wanted and told their people not to follow the kings laws.  The first militia man at Concord Bridge the morning of April 19, 1775 was a local minister.

The King James version of the bible came later and was translated to try to put the kings wishes/laws/rule above God.  It preached that that people should subjugate themselves to the leaders God placed over men (kings/rulers/governments).

The king james version is the bible most Christian religions in the US use today.

Then again, there's that thing about tax exemptions.  Stay out of politics, or risk getting in trouble with the government/taxes, etc.

The ministers of our colonial days preached that a man who would not do what was necessary to protect his family and his neighbors wasn't much of a man.  Many of the churches were to local armories.  Extra muskets were stored at the churches.  Extra barrels of powder and balls were stored there.  The church/community would actually load a man a musket if he would participate in the local militia training.

Those folks didn't roll over for anybody.

Thanks for the answers.

I'm troubled by this.

If God has ordained all that shall come to pass, is it not part of God's plan when a man with a gun comes to rob and kill you? Perhaps it's part of a much greater plan ( which we are in no wise privy to) that will bring some people to Christ.

What about Nate Saint, Jim Elliot, and company? What would have been the outcome if they had defended their lives? Or the stoning of Stephen?

If you fall back on " God is not the author of sin"; where does his plan end? Criminals do not exist in a vacuum, they are the product of many many influences, some extending back generations. Which of those were and were not part of the plan?

I offer this not as an argument but as something that does truly trouble me.No need to try and convert me from pacifism, I'm not in that camp.

My thoughts on this.  God gave us free will to make our own choices.  That is also the plan.  IMHO.  A criminal chooses to follow the wrong path.  I don't believe everything that happens is part of a plan
 I, sometimes, believe that we are tested, unknowingly to see our response.  I look back and I failed on at least one instance that I am aware of.

I think it's a good thing to carry to defend others if need be.


 

Fr. George Rutler (former Anglican Priest) speaks on pacifism and protection:

Fighting Back is a Moral Obligation

From the Westminster Larger Catechism. Which is what Presbyterians hold to....

Q. 135. What are the duties required in the sixth commandment?
A. The duties required in the sixth commandment are, all careful studies, and lawful endeavors, to preserve the life of ourselves and others by resisting all thoughts and purposes, subduing all passions, and avoiding all occasions, temptations, and practices, which tend to the unjust taking away the life of any; by just defense thereof against violence, patient bearing of the hand of God, quietness of mind, cheerfulness of spirit; a sober use of meat, drink, physic, sleep, labor, and recreations; by charitable thoughts, love, compassion, meekness, gentleness, kindness; peaceable, mild and courteous speeches and behavior; forbearance, readiness to be reconciled, patient bearing and forgiving of injuries, and requiting good for evil; comforting and succoring the distressed, and protecting and defending the innocent.

Q. 136. What are the sins forbidden in the sixth commandment?
A. The sins forbidden in the sixth commandment are, all taking away the life of ourselves, or of others, except in case of public justice, lawful war, or necessary defense; the neglecting or withdrawing the lawful and necessary means of preservation of life; sinful anger, hatred, envy, desire of revenge; all excessive passions, distracting cares; immoderate use of meat, drink, labor, and recreations; provoking words, oppression, quarreling, striking, wounding, and whatsoever else tends to the destruction of the life of any.

I've read a number of bible translations king James included.

Never got the impression that the bible changed.

Don't agree with you on the change but I do agree with your conclusion

A great question.  I can only offer my view.

I do not believe pacifism is biblical, and one need only consult the Law of the Old Testament to see that clearly laid out.  In the law we see God's mind on these matters.  The Lord was very clear in the law that using force to protect yourself is legitimate and not inherently sinful.

I think it's important to draw a distinction between pacifism and martyrdom.  They're not the same thing.  Pacifism would have you believe that there is no just cause, no just war, and no just reason for self defense.  I don't think you can read that from the bible.

Martyrdom is giving your life for Gospel of Jesus Christ.  For myself, I will protect myself and my family as best I can.  But if I am called to bear final witness to the gospel through my death, I can only pray that I will measure up to God's expectation when the day arrives.

This is truly an excellent response.