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Link Posted: 1/16/2016 11:57:00 AM EDT
[#1]


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According to the bible..the heart is wicked No one seeks God. That is not to say we don't have free will.  If I put a pile of rotten meat and a pile of apples in front of a buzzard, which would he chose? The rotten meat every time.  Did I take away his free will? No.  He freely had the choice.  But he will follow his will.  Man is the same way.  We will choose sin every time.  When God regenerates us we will choose Him.  Because we are changed.  Faith is a gift from God.  That's straight from the bible also. Earlier in this thread I listed verses talking about the depravity of man.  People who don't understand what reformed theology is, get their facts from YouTube.  Then they say it denies the will of man.  It does nothing of the sort.  It agrees that man follows his will. The bible says " no one seeks God" I agree.
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The issue is what your definition of "free will" is. Is it deterministic or libertarian when someone hears the word? Calvinists think the former, non-Calvinists think the latter.





It's really a silly debate IMO; either you choose God or you don't. But you have guys like John Piper, John MacArthur, and Paul Washer that have come around and said that even if you choose God, you can still be damned...unless you have works. Which is another gospel altogether.
 
Link Posted: 1/16/2016 12:32:51 PM EDT
[#2]




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I'm sorry but in my opinion when God chooses who he regenerates he chooses who will and who will not reject him.
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Then why all the heartache with the nation of Israel? Why did He choose Samson who still ran off and slept with prostitutes? Why did Paul say they rejected the Holy Spirit in Acts 7:51?

 












There's a huge problem in the church where we base our understanding of God on our logic and the logic of people with "Th.d" after their name rather than what is said in the Bible.
Look at Acts 2:28, Peter states that the Holy Spirit will come after repentance (which doesn't mean "turn from sin" it actually means change of mind), belief and baptism. Then look at Acts 10 and elsewhere; if you look at the conversions in the Book of Acts, you see that there is no particular order in when the Holy Spirit comes. Does that mean belief can, but not always, come before regeneration? It certainly seems so.













What's telling is when Reformed preachers, especially of the hyper-Calvinist flavor, berate and condemn people in their own church for something they teach is not within the ability of a sinner to change. Yet those sinner are still there in their church. It's a huge contradiction in between what is said and what is done. It really says they really don't believe in predestination, or even grace through faith.
You've been caught up in the hyper-Calvinist contradiction. You want to believe but you are not sure you can. This is why Calvinism is vain philosophy, because Biblically you believe or you don't. What these popular Reformed guys end up telling people is to put your assurance of salvation on your works, which they claim is required for evidence of a regenerated heart, using James 2 as scripture for for this, correct?



Problem is, James wrote his letter to believers, who he calls his brethren 17 times! If works naturally follow faith then why bother? Are we going to judge a brother unsaved due to the lack of works (in contradiction to Romans 4:5 mind you), then preach a gospel of grace without works until he "turns from sin" (i.e. follows the Law) and we see works in his life. If not we'll preach grace until we see works! See the issue? Works are not evidence of faith...faith is evidence of faith. James was trying to motivate people to be good witnesses; his epistle has NOTHING to do with salvation, evidence or otherwise, since it was to the already saved.



So therefore, when we doubt our salvation, we shouldn't look lto our works, we should look to the cross and the finished work of Christ, sufficient to atone for all sin.



 
Link Posted: 1/24/2016 8:28:27 AM EDT
[#3]

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The issue is what your definition of "free will" is. Is it deterministic or libertarian when someone hears the word? Calvinists think the former, non-Calvinists think the latter.



It's really a silly debate IMO; either you choose God or you don't. But you have guys like John Piper, John MacArthur, and Paul Washer that have come around and said that even if you choose God, you can still be damned...unless you have works. Which is another gospel altogether.



 
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According to the bible..the heart is wicked No one seeks God. That is not to say we don't have free will.  If I put a pile of rotten meat and a pile of apples in front of a buzzard, which would he chose? The rotten meat every time.  Did I take away his free will? No.  He freely had the choice.  But he will follow his will.  Man is the same way.  We will choose sin every time.  When God regenerates us we will choose Him.  Because we are changed.  Faith is a gift from God.  That's straight from the bible also. Earlier in this thread I listed verses talking about the depravity of man.  People who don't understand what reformed theology is, get their facts from YouTube.  Then they say it denies the will of man.  It does nothing of the sort.  It agrees that man follows his will. The bible says " no one seeks God" I agree.
The issue is what your definition of "free will" is. Is it deterministic or libertarian when someone hears the word? Calvinists think the former, non-Calvinists think the latter.



It's really a silly debate IMO; either you choose God or you don't. But you have guys like John Piper, John MacArthur, and Paul Washer that have come around and said that even if you choose God, you can still be damned...unless you have works. Which is another gospel altogether.



 
Wrong.



James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and
one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but
you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?
17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[/sup] works, and I will show you my faith by my[sup][/sup][/sup] works. [sup]19 [/sup]You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! [sup]20 [/sup]But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[sup][/sup][/sup] [sup]21 [/sup]Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? [sup]22 [/sup]Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? [sup]23 [/sup]And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[sup][/sup][/sup] And he was called the friend of God. [sup]24 [/sup]You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.


Link Posted: 1/24/2016 9:27:44 AM EDT
[#4]


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Wrong.





James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?  15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,  16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?  17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[/sup] works, and I will show you my faith by my[sup][/sup][/sup] works.  [sup]19 [/sup]You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!  [sup]20 [/sup]But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[sup][/sup][/sup]  [sup]21 [/sup]Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?  [sup]22 [/sup]Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?  [sup]23 [/sup]And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[sup][/sup][/sup] And he was called the friend of God.  [sup]24 [/sup]You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
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Quoted:


According to the bible..the heart is wicked No one seeks God. That is not to say we don't have free will.  If I put a pile of rotten meat and a pile of apples in front of a buzzard, which would he chose? The rotten meat every time.  Did I take away his free will? No.  He freely had the choice.  But he will follow his will.  Man is the same way.  We will choose sin every time.  When God regenerates us we will choose Him.  Because we are changed.  Faith is a gift from God.  That's straight from the bible also. Earlier in this thread I listed verses talking about the depravity of man.  People who don't understand what reformed theology is, get their facts from YouTube.  Then they say it denies the will of man.  It does nothing of the sort.  It agrees that man follows his will. The bible says " no one seeks God" I agree.
The issue is what your definition of "free will" is. Is it deterministic or libertarian when someone hears the word? Calvinists think the former, non-Calvinists think the latter.





It's really a silly debate IMO; either you choose God or you don't. But you have guys like John Piper, John MacArthur, and Paul Washer that have come around and said that even if you choose God, you can still be damned...unless you have works. Which is another gospel altogether.


 
Wrong.





James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?  15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,  16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?  17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[/sup] works, and I will show you my faith by my[sup][/sup][/sup] works.  [sup]19 [/sup]You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!  [sup]20 [/sup]But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[sup][/sup][/sup]  [sup]21 [/sup]Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?  [sup]22 [/sup]Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?  [sup]23 [/sup]And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[sup][/sup][/sup] And he was called the friend of God.  [sup]24 [/sup]You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Romans 4:5-8:


"But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: 'Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.'"





Ephesians 2:8-9:



"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."





The thing about James is that he was talking to the already saved. He uses the word for "brethren" 17 times, quite a bit for such a short letter. His epistle actually has nothing to do with salvation, it's about Christian living and witness. He's motivating the already saved to get off their butts and go be a witness to the world, and not be idle. If works naturally followed "saving faith" (which is another error, since there is only one kind of faith in the Bible) then James is writing nonsense. For 'faith without works' to be dead there has to be a such thing as 'faith without works', or James is just talking nonsense. It'd be like me saying, "the heidneid is dead". What's a heidneid? Exactly.





The book of Romans is the Magna Carta of Christianity, and is about salvation, which Paul was revealing the logic of. It's actually a Jewish Midrash-style commentary on the Torah. So when Paul says we are imputed righteousness apart from works, you know it is about salvation.







 
Link Posted: 1/24/2016 10:34:46 PM EDT
[#5]
An evangelical dismissing the book of James. I thought Scripture was simple truth available to all believers to interpret? Seems like a lot of contortion to find the cryptic meaning behind the words 'faith without deeds is dead' and conclude that faith alone is necessary for salvation.
Link Posted: 1/24/2016 11:02:16 PM EDT
[#6]

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An evangelical dismissing the book of James. I thought Scripture was simple truth available to all believers to interpret? Seems like a lot of contortion to find the cryptic meaning behind the words 'faith without deeds is dead' and conclude that faith alone is necessary for salvation.
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See, I'm not dismissing James one bit; I'm showing you what it actually says, in light of Romans and Ephesians. You can't dismiss one scripture in the Bible; it is all true.

 



Please, read Galatians and see what is meant by "works".
Link Posted: 1/25/2016 1:22:22 AM EDT
[#7]

No, you are actually trying to convince me that your personal interpretation is the correct one. There is a difference.
Link Posted: 1/25/2016 9:23:13 AM EDT
[#8]
Another gospel altogether? Nope



Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who DOES the will of my Father who is in heaven.





Even your Magna Carta of christianity indicates that deeds do matter



Romans 2:6
But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.



Seems pretty clear that if one calls himself a 'saved Christian,' he/she corroborates that title by their actions. In Catholicism, we don't use the term 'saved.' We believed that our salvation is grace through faith, and prompted by grace to works. Works are faith in action. It is an entirely biblical stance which has been well examined through two thousand years of existen
ce.



From the catechism:(bold is mine)



2005
Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience
and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our
feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved. However, according to the Lord's words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"
- reflection on God's blessings in our life and in the lives of the
saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on
to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.
.
Link Posted: 1/25/2016 10:02:19 AM EDT
[#9]
Ah yes. Matthew 7:21. Now what is the will of the Father? John 6 tells us:





40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”







Now keep reading in Matthew 7:







21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven [see above]. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.








Romans 2:6 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.





Read the context. He's addressing the idea that man can save himself by the virtue of his own good deed. He's pointing out the weaknesses of the Law in Chapter 2. Paul hasn't begun to address grace, which he does in Chapter 3"






9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.


10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;


11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.


12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.”


13 "Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit”; "The poison of asps is under their lips”;  


14 "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”


15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;


16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;


17 And the way of peace they have not known.”


18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes.”


19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.


20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. God’s Righteousness Through Faith


21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,


22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;


23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,


24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,


25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,


26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Boasting Excluded


27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith







And in Chapter 4:










4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?[a]

2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[b]

4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. David Celebrates the Same Truth

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”[c] Abraham Justified Before Circumcision

9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.

10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised.

11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,

12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised. The Promise Granted Through Faith

13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect,

15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

17 (as it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations”[d]) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;

18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, "So shall your descendants be.”[e]

19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb.

20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God,

21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform.

22 And therefore "it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[f]

3 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him,

24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead,

25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

 
Link Posted: 1/25/2016 1:27:42 PM EDT
[#10]
Ran out of time there.



"Justification" in the Greek is a legal term meaning to "render righteous". We aren't righteous because we did anything, or because we are innocent. We are declared righteous and innocent because the Judge decided to pay our fine personally.  





Now onto Romans 5:

1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, [see above]

2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;

4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope.

5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us [reference Galatians 2:20]. Christ in Our Place

6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die.

8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. Death in Adam, Life in Christ

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—

13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.

16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.

17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more,

21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.




I would encourage you to put down the catechism and, in prayer to Christ, read the Bible without presupposition.



Link Posted: 1/26/2016 2:44:10 PM EDT
[#11]
Ah yes, the discredited "Sola Fide" doctrine, that relies on ignoring swaths of the Scriptura they claim to Sola.

No biggie. Just throw a few books out, ignore the rest, and claim everyone from Peter up to King James was just wrong.

And if someone happens to post what Jesus Himself said, well, what some "pastor" says is more accurate than the Pope, even though Scripture is supposed to be easily understandable by the common man.

That works.
Link Posted: 1/26/2016 6:49:56 PM EDT
[#12]
Well I was hoping to have a civilized discussion.



The problem is what do you believe? Do you believe scripture, or what someone says about scripture? I provided scripture here that shows it isn't saying what you've been told it says.



BTW, if you really believe in the Trinity, then the entire Bible is what Jesus Himself said.



And Jesus said, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”  (John 10)




And He also said, "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."



See, the problem is that John told us we sin, (1 John 1:8) and James said if we break one part of the law, we break it all (2:10). Paul even admitted to sin in Romans 7. So this idea that you can do anything to attain salvation apart from grace makes no Biblical sense. It's all extra-biblical by people who ignore the Bible in favor of people's opinions.



Link Posted: 1/26/2016 8:24:52 PM EDT
[#13]
Paul in Romans 4 says that we are justified by faith without works AND GIVES ABRAHAM AS AN EXAMPLE OF THIS.

James in James 2 says that we are not justified by faith alone, but by works also, AND GIVES ABRAHAM AS AN EXAMPLE OF THIS.

What would be the logical next step in reconcilling these two passages?
Link Posted: 1/26/2016 8:44:14 PM EDT
[#14]


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Paul in Romans 4 says that we are justified by faith without works AND GIVES ABRAHAM AS AN EXAMPLE OF THIS.





James in James 2 says that we are not justified by faith alone, but by works also, AND GIVES ABRAHAM AS AN EXAMPLE OF THIS.





What would be the logical next step in reconcilling these two passages?
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Context and co-text.


 



See, "the body without the spirit is dead" doesn't mean that there is no body, or it's a false body, it means there's no life in the body. It's dead weight.



Likewise, faith is still faith, but there's no life in it.



Thus James is about the effective life and effective faith, not about salvation.
Link Posted: 1/27/2016 9:09:59 AM EDT
[#15]
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Well I was hoping to have a civilized discussion.

The problem is what do you believe? Do you believe scripture, or what someone says about scripture? I provided scripture here that shows it isn't saying what you've been told it says.

BTW, if you really believe in the Trinity, then the entire Bible is what Jesus Himself said.

And Jesus said, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”  (John 10)

And He also said, "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

See, the problem is that John told us we sin, (1 John 1:8) and James said if we break one part of the law, we break it all (2:10). Paul even admitted to sin in Romans 7. So this idea that you can do anything to attain salvation apart from grace makes no Biblical sense. It's all extra-biblical by people who ignore the Bible in favor of people's opinions.


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Spot on and scripturally correct.

Link Posted: 1/27/2016 10:55:23 AM EDT
[#16]
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Context and co-text.    

See, "the body without the spirit is dead" doesn't mean that there is no body, or it's a false body, it means there's no life in the body. It's dead weight.

Likewise, faith is still faith, but there's no life in it.

Thus James is about the effective life and effective faith, not about salvation.
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Paul in Romans 4 says that we are justified by faith without works AND GIVES ABRAHAM AS AN EXAMPLE OF THIS.

James in James 2 says that we are not justified by faith alone, but by works also, AND GIVES ABRAHAM AS AN EXAMPLE OF THIS.

What would be the logical next step in reconcilling these two passages?
Context and co-text.    

See, "the body without the spirit is dead" doesn't mean that there is no body, or it's a false body, it means there's no life in the body. It's dead weight.

Likewise, faith is still faith, but there's no life in it.

Thus James is about the effective life and effective faith, not about salvation.


So we shouldn't look at what ties the two passages together?
Link Posted: 1/27/2016 11:11:04 AM EDT
[#17]

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Well I was hoping to have a civilized discussion.



The problem is what do you believe? Do you believe scripture, or what someone says about scripture? I provided scripture here that shows it isn't saying what you've been told it says.



BTW, if you really believe in the Trinity, then the entire Bible is what Jesus Himself said.



And Jesus said, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”  (John 10)



And He also said, "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."



See, the problem is that John told us we sin, (1 John 1:8) and James said if we break one part of the law, we break it all (2:10). Paul even admitted to sin in Romans 7. So this idea that you can do anything to attain salvation apart from grace makes no Biblical sense. It's all extra-biblical by people who ignore the Bible in favor of people's opinions.

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Absolute rubbish.



How can scripture show/prove that its not saying what we think it says? Scripture cannot verify its interpretation. Your personal interpretation or your pastor's interpretation is not more valid than the interpretation present in the catholic church for the last 2,000 years. Your evangelical theology and scriptural bent is a few hundred years old at best. Until that 'novel' interpretation was invented, the church was one and universal in its belief. Now we have some 26,000+ 'christian denominations' based on the clear and simple message of the scripture.



No post in this thread or any other has claimed that we merit salvation by any other means than grace. You merely repeat the lie to throw a bone to your fellow evangelicals.



 
Link Posted: 1/27/2016 11:19:59 AM EDT
[#18]

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Quoted:



Absolute rubbish.



How can scripture show/prove that its not saying what we think it says? Scripture cannot verify its interpretation. Your personal interpretation or your pastor's interpretation is not more valid than the interpretation present in the catholic church for the last 2,000 years. Your evangelical theology and scriptural bent is a few hundred years old at best. Until that 'novel' interpretation was invented, the church was one and universal in its belief. Now we have some 26,000+ 'christian denominations' based on the clear and simple message of the scripture.



No post in this thread or any other has claimed that we merit salvation by any other means than grace. You merely repeat the lie to throw a bone to your fellow evangelicals.

 
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Quoted:



Quoted:

Well I was hoping to have a civilized discussion.



The problem is what do you believe? Do you believe scripture, or what someone says about scripture? I provided scripture here that shows it isn't saying what you've been told it says.



BTW, if you really believe in the Trinity, then the entire Bible is what Jesus Himself said.



And Jesus said, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”  (John 10)



And He also said, "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."



See, the problem is that John told us we sin, (1 John 1:8) and James said if we break one part of the law, we break it all (2:10). Paul even admitted to sin in Romans 7. So this idea that you can do anything to attain salvation apart from grace makes no Biblical sense. It's all extra-biblical by people who ignore the Bible in favor of people's opinions.

Absolute rubbish.



How can scripture show/prove that its not saying what we think it says? Scripture cannot verify its interpretation. Your personal interpretation or your pastor's interpretation is not more valid than the interpretation present in the catholic church for the last 2,000 years. Your evangelical theology and scriptural bent is a few hundred years old at best. Until that 'novel' interpretation was invented, the church was one and universal in its belief. Now we have some 26,000+ 'christian denominations' based on the clear and simple message of the scripture.



No post in this thread or any other has claimed that we merit salvation by any other means than grace. You merely repeat the lie to throw a bone to your fellow evangelicals.

 
Where's your scripture?  You're doing exactly what you are accusing me of, deferring to men.



Btw,  the RCC didn't exist 2,000 years ago. Two thousand years ago their doctrine wasn't taught. How do we know? Because of the scriptures written 2,000 years ago that I am posting for you.






Link Posted: 1/27/2016 2:59:22 PM EDT
[#19]

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Quoted:



Where's your scripture?  You're doing exactly what you are accusing me of, deferring to men.



Btw,  the RCC didn't exist 2,000 years ago. Two thousand years ago their doctrine wasn't taught. How do we know? Because of the scriptures written 2,000 years ago that I am posting for you.

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Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:

Well I was hoping to have a civilized discussion.



The problem is what do you believe? Do you believe scripture, or what someone says about scripture? I provided scripture here that shows it isn't saying what you've been told it says.



BTW, if you really believe in the Trinity, then the entire Bible is what Jesus Himself said.



And Jesus said, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”  (John 10)



And He also said, "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."



See, the problem is that John told us we sin, (1 John 1:8) and James said if we break one part of the law, we break it all (2:10). Paul even admitted to sin in Romans 7. So this idea that you can do anything to attain salvation apart from grace makes no Biblical sense. It's all extra-biblical by people who ignore the Bible in favor of people's opinions.

Absolute rubbish.



How can scripture show/prove that its not saying what we think it says? Scripture cannot verify its interpretation. Your personal interpretation or your pastor's interpretation is not more valid than the interpretation present in the catholic church for the last 2,000 years. Your evangelical theology and scriptural bent is a few hundred years old at best. Until that 'novel' interpretation was invented, the church was one and universal in its belief. Now we have some 26,000+ 'christian denominations' based on the clear and simple message of the scripture.



No post in this thread or any other has claimed that we merit salvation by any other means than grace. You merely repeat the lie to throw a bone to your fellow evangelicals.

 
Where's your scripture?  You're doing exactly what you are accusing me of, deferring to men.



Btw,  the RCC didn't exist 2,000 years ago. Two thousand years ago their doctrine wasn't taught. How do we know? Because of the scriptures written 2,000 years ago that I am posting for you.

BTW, the Catholic Church did indeed exist 2,000 years ago and our doctrine was taught and believed by the entirety of the Christian world. The oldest extant documents from the post apostolic period bear this out. Be bold. Look it up. Find me some ancient quote from the year 90 that confirms sola scriptura. Love to read it.



What does that even mean, 'Where's your scripture?' You now want me to post scripture which says that scripture cannot verify itself? Maybe in your mind your question is clear, but it is not clear in your post. I made no mention of 'deferring to men' that's your language, not mine. You present your view of scripture as THE truth or THE correct interpretation. I'm telling you that your interpretation is novel in the context of church history. If you think that fundamentalist/evangelical belief is consistent with the 'early church' you would be sadly mistaken.



 
Link Posted: 1/27/2016 6:45:08 PM EDT
[#20]

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Quoted:



BTW, the Catholic Church did indeed exist 2,000 years ago and our doctrine was taught and believed by the entirety of the Christian world. The oldest extant documents from the post apostolic period bear this out. Be bold. Look it up. Find me some ancient quote from the year 90 that confirms sola scriptura. Love to read it.



What does that even mean, 'Where's your scripture?' You now want me to post scripture which says that scripture cannot verify itself? Maybe in your mind your question is clear, but it is not clear in your post. I made no mention of 'deferring to men' that's your language, not mine. You present your view of scripture as THE truth or THE correct interpretation. I'm telling you that your interpretation is novel in the context of church history. If you think that fundamentalist/evangelical belief is consistent with the 'early church' you would be sadly mistaken.

 
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Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:



Absolute rubbish.



How can scripture show/prove that its not saying what we think it says? Scripture cannot verify its interpretation. Your personal interpretation or your pastor's interpretation is not more valid than the interpretation present in the catholic church for the last 2,000 years. Your evangelical theology and scriptural bent is a few hundred years old at best. Until that 'novel' interpretation was invented, the church was one and universal in its belief. Now we have some 26,000+ 'christian denominations' based on the clear and simple message of the scripture.



No post in this thread or any other has claimed that we merit salvation by any other means than grace. You merely repeat the lie to throw a bone to your fellow evangelicals.

 
Where's your scripture?  You're doing exactly what you are accusing me of, deferring to men.



Btw,  the RCC didn't exist 2,000 years ago. Two thousand years ago their doctrine wasn't taught. How do we know? Because of the scriptures written 2,000 years ago that I am posting for you.

BTW, the Catholic Church did indeed exist 2,000 years ago and our doctrine was taught and believed by the entirety of the Christian world. The oldest extant documents from the post apostolic period bear this out. Be bold. Look it up. Find me some ancient quote from the year 90 that confirms sola scriptura. Love to read it.



What does that even mean, 'Where's your scripture?' You now want me to post scripture which says that scripture cannot verify itself? Maybe in your mind your question is clear, but it is not clear in your post. I made no mention of 'deferring to men' that's your language, not mine. You present your view of scripture as THE truth or THE correct interpretation. I'm telling you that your interpretation is novel in the context of church history. If you think that fundamentalist/evangelical belief is consistent with the 'early church' you would be sadly mistaken.

 

Can we agree that God will not contradict Himself? So whatever the Bible says the RCC must be in agreement correct?







Link Posted: 1/27/2016 7:57:29 PM EDT
[#21]
Notice how he doesn't answer any questions. He just keeps asking them....
Link Posted: 1/27/2016 8:10:28 PM EDT
[#22]

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Quoted:


Notice how he doesn't answer any questions. He just keeps asking them....
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Now that is flat-out untrue. Scroll up.
 
Link Posted: 1/27/2016 8:18:56 PM EDT
[#23]
And no, God does not contradict Himself. Ergo, anything claiming to be from God must agree with what we know, and agree, is of God, which is the word of God.





1 Corinthians 4:6 - Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.





Acts 17:11 - These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.





Colossians 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.


 
Link Posted: 1/28/2016 11:30:21 AM EDT
[#24]
The references to 'scripture' are references to the OT. Paul's letters were not 'scripture' til much later, nor was Acts. And when Paul referenced OT scripture he meant the Septuagint which contained the 7 books of the deuterocanon. In addition, you completely overlook the fact that Jesus Christ himself awarded the power to loose and bind, on earth and in heaven. So if the Church declares sacred tradition, Jesus Christ himself approves such a declaration.



God does not contradict himself. It is the protestant camp that draws all of the either/or lines in Scriptures, and bends around seeming contradiction. Catholicism is overwhelmingly a both/and interpretation and incorporates the entirety of scriptural insight.
Link Posted: 1/28/2016 1:20:25 PM EDT
[#25]
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The references to 'scripture' are references to the OT. Paul's letters were not 'scripture' til much later, nor was Acts. And when Paul referenced OT scripture he meant the Septuagint which contained the 7 books of the deuterocanon. In addition, you completely overlook the fact that Jesus Christ himself awarded the power to loose and bind, on earth and in heaven. So if the Church declares sacred tradition, Jesus Christ himself approves such a declaration.

God does not contradict himself. It is the protestant camp that draws all of the either/or lines in Scriptures, and bends around seeming contradiction. Catholicism is overwhelmingly a both/and interpretation and incorporates the entirety of scriptural insight.
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Paul was speaking of the TORAH, and by extension the whole TANACH, not necessarily a Greek translation of it.
Link Posted: 1/28/2016 8:40:45 PM EDT
[#26]
Matthew 16 in context:


13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”





14 So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”





15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?”





16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”





17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”





20 Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.








Now Look at this in Greek (click on the verse and click the "Interlinear" tab at the top, then click on the blue "Parse" boxes to see the tense and gender of each word). Peter's literal Greek name is "Petros", but when Christ says "upon this rock", it is the feminine "petra" for rock. Greek grammar requires the subject of a verb to be the same gender as the subject, so Christ was actually excluding Peter from this pronouncement.





By context "upon this rock" was aimed at Peter's statement in verse 16: "you are the Christ, the Son of the Living God", i.e. what they said He was.





As far as "binding and loosing", know that we are commanded to forgive, and in the very same context:





In Matthew 18:18 we see Christ repeat to all the disciples about binding and loosing, then goes into a parable:






18 "Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.





19 "Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”





The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant



21 Then Peter came to Him and said, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”





22 Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.





28 "But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.





35"So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”





Therefore, what Matthew 16 is and is not:





IT IS:


GOD makes the rules and our minister try to lead us to follow.





It IS NOT:


Man makes the rules and requires GOD to follow.





It is impossible that Jesus would give Peter total authority over his church or indeed any man in particular. Lets look at some of the reasons:



  • Jesus didn't ask Peter only for his opinion as to who he thought Jesus was. He asked his disciples (Matthew 16:15). Peter was just first in answering.


  • In the same chapter in verse 23 Jesus accuses Peter of being a stumbling block to the Lord for he didn't have in mind the things of God.


  • In Matthew 18:1 we see his disciples asking Jesus who was to be the greatest in the kingdom of Heaven. If Peter had been appointed the greatest, why would there be a doubt?.


  • In chapter 19 when Jesus was talking to the young rich man and when Jesus let him go Peter asked, "We have forsaken all and followed you, what shall we have therefore?" Why would Peter ask that question if Jesus had given him not only supreme authority but also the keys of heaven?


  • Jesus commanded his disciples to go and make disciples of all nations (the great commission Matthew 28) and yet in Acts 10 we find Peter unwilling to go to Cornelius house (the first gentile converted) because it was unlawful thing for a Jew to mix with gentiles (Acts 10:28). In fact Peter was astonished to see that the gentiles had also received the Holy Spirit (like at Pentecost, verses 45-46).


  • In Acts 15:13-19 at the council of Jerusalem, the true leader was James, the Lords brother and not Peter.


  • In Acts 9:15 we see the Lord choosing Paul for the ministry to the gentiles. Jesus also wanted Paul to go to Rome (Acts 23:11).


  • In Galatians 2:7-9 we see that the Jerusalem leaders were James, Peter and John. Paul had the ministry to the gentiles and Peter the ministry of the circumcision (Jews).


  • When Peter was at Antioch he was having fellowship with the gentiles but after the Jews came he stopped having fellowship for fear of the Jews ( verses 11-15).


































 
Link Posted: 1/29/2016 9:32:14 AM EDT
[#27]

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Paul was speaking of the TORAH, and by extension the whole TANACH, not necessarily a Greek translation of it.
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Quoted:

The references to 'scripture' are references to the OT. Paul's letters were not 'scripture' til much later, nor was Acts. And when Paul referenced OT scripture he meant the Septuagint which contained the 7 books of the deuterocanon. In addition, you completely overlook the fact that Jesus Christ himself awarded the power to loose and bind, on earth and in heaven. So if the Church declares sacred tradition, Jesus Christ himself approves such a declaration.



God does not contradict himself. It is the protestant camp that draws all of the either/or lines in Scriptures, and bends around seeming contradiction. Catholicism is overwhelmingly a both/and interpretation and incorporates the entirety of scriptural insight.




Paul was speaking of the TORAH, and by extension the whole TANACH, not necessarily a Greek translation of it.
It says that where? The deuterocanon is quoted and paraphrased multiple times in the NT. This was the canon of scripture that 1st century Jews were familiar with.



 
Link Posted: 1/29/2016 9:39:11 AM EDT
[#28]

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Quoted:


Matthew 16 in context:




13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”



14 So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”



15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?”



16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”



17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”



20 Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.



View Quote
Now Look at this in Greek (click on the verse and click the "Interlinear" tab at the top, then click on the blue "Parse" boxes to see the tense and gender of each word). Peter's literal Greek name is "Petros", but when Christ says "upon this rock", it is the feminine "petra" for rock. Greek grammar requires the subject of a verb to be the same gender as the subject, so Christ was actually excluding Peter from this pronouncement.

<snip>



 
That hermeneutic has been discredited so many times and so many ways by biblical scholars as to be a laughable argument. Again a novel, recent interpretation of scripture to reshape scripture to a protestant conformation.

Link Posted: 1/29/2016 9:51:57 AM EDT
[#29]

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Quoted:




It is impossible that Jesus would give Peter total authority over his church or indeed any man in particular. Except that the totality of the new testament bears out that he did. Lets look at some of the reasons:

  • Jesus didn't ask Peter only for his opinion as to who he thought Jesus was. He asked his disciples (Matthew 16:15). Peter was just first in answering.Because he was the leader and God inspired him to answer the way he did. Read it again.


  • In the same chapter in verse 23 Jesus accuses Peter of being a stumbling block to the Lord for he didn't have in mind the things of God. Like all men.


  • In Matthew 18:1 we see his disciples asking Jesus who was to be the greatest in the kingdom of Heaven. If Peter had been appointed the greatest, why would there be a doubt? The possession of the keys does not make one the greatest, it only makes you the one responsible.

  • In chapter 19 when Jesus was talking to the young rich man and when Jesus let him go Peter asked, "We have forsaken all and followed you, what shall we have therefore?" Why would Peter ask that question if Jesus had given him not only supreme authority but also the keys of heaven? Would it be even remotely  reasonable that no man would would exercise his authority in the physical presence of the Son of God? That's a ridiculous query.


  • Jesus commanded his disciples to go and make disciples of all nations (the great commission Matthew 28) and yet in Acts 10 we find Peter unwilling to go to Cornelius house (the first gentile converted) because it was unlawful thing for a Jew to mix with gentiles (Acts 10:28). In fact Peter was astonished to see that the gentiles had also received the Holy Spirit (like at Pentecost, verses 45-46).

  • In Acts 15:13-19 at the council of Jerusalem, the true leader was James, the Lords brother and not Peter. Who had the last word on everything at that council? Yes it was Peter. His word was final. James was the acting Bishop of Jerusalem.


  • In Acts 9:15 we see the Lord choosing Paul for the ministry to the gentiles. Jesus also wanted Paul to go to Rome (Acts 23:11). And so...what exactly?


  • In Galatians 2:7-9 we see that the Jerusalem leaders were James, Peter and John. Paul had the ministry to the gentiles and Peter the ministry of the circumcision (Jews). And so...what exactly?

  • When Peter was at Antioch he was having fellowship with the gentiles but after the Jews came he stopped having fellowship for fear of the Jews ( verses 11-15). And so...what exactly?



     



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Link Posted: 1/29/2016 4:42:12 PM EDT
[#30]

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Quoted:



Now Look at this in Greek (click on the verse and click the "Interlinear" tab at the top, then click on the blue "Parse" boxes to see the tense and gender of each word). Peter's literal Greek name is "Petros", but when Christ says "upon this rock", it is the feminine "petra" for rock. Greek grammar requires the subject of a verb to be the same gender as the subject, so Christ was actually excluding Peter from this pronouncement.

<snip>

 

That hermeneutic has been discredited so many times and so many ways by biblical scholars as to be a laughable argument. Again a novel, recent interpretation of scripture to reshape scripture to a protestant conformation.

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Quoted:



Quoted:

Matthew 16 in context:



13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”



14 So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”



15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?”



16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”



17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”



20 Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.



Now Look at this in Greek (click on the verse and click the "Interlinear" tab at the top, then click on the blue "Parse" boxes to see the tense and gender of each word). Peter's literal Greek name is "Petros", but when Christ says "upon this rock", it is the feminine "petra" for rock. Greek grammar requires the subject of a verb to be the same gender as the subject, so Christ was actually excluding Peter from this pronouncement.

<snip>

 

That hermeneutic has been discredited so many times and so many ways by biblical scholars as to be a laughable argument. Again a novel, recent interpretation of scripture to reshape scripture to a protestant conformation.

Except the first person to claim authority over the whole of the church was Constantine, the first to call himself Pope was Leo I. Peter never claimed any authority over the other apostles in the Bible, and he told Cornelius "stand up, I am also a man" (Acts 10:25) when the Roman tried to treat Peter like people treat the Pope today and prostrate himself.

 



Please provide a scriptural or linguistic argument.
Link Posted: 1/29/2016 5:07:25 PM EDT
[#31]

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Quoted:



It is impossible that Jesus would give Peter total authority over his church or indeed any man in particular. Except that the totality of the new testament bears out that he did. Lets look at some of the reasons:

  • Jesus didn't ask Peter only for his opinion as to who he thought Jesus was. He asked his disciples (Matthew 16:15). Peter was just first in answering.Because he was the leader and God inspired him to answer the way he did. Read it again.


  • In the same chapter in verse 23 Jesus accuses Peter of being a stumbling block to the Lord for he didn't have in mind the things of God. Like all men.


  • In Matthew 18:1 we see his disciples asking Jesus who was to be the greatest in the kingdom of Heaven. If Peter had been appointed the greatest, why would there be a doubt? The possession of the keys does not make one the greatest, it only makes you the one responsible.

  • In chapter 19 when Jesus was talking to the young rich man and when Jesus let him go Peter asked, "We have forsaken all and followed you, what shall we have therefore?" Why would Peter ask that question if Jesus had given him not only supreme authority but also the keys of heaven? Would it be even remotely  reasonable that no man would would exercise his authority in the physical presence of the Son of God? That's a ridiculous query.


  • Jesus commanded his disciples to go and make disciples of all nations (the great commission Matthew 28) and yet in Acts 10 we find Peter unwilling to go to Cornelius house (the first gentile converted) because it was unlawful thing for a Jew to mix with gentiles (Acts 10:28). In fact Peter was astonished to see that the gentiles had also received the Holy Spirit (like at Pentecost, verses 45-46).

  • In Acts 15:13-19 at the council of Jerusalem, the true leader was James, the Lords brother and not Peter. Who had the last word on everything at that council? Yes it was Peter. His word was final. James was the acting Bishop of Jerusalem.


  • In Acts 9:15 we see the Lord choosing Paul for the ministry to the gentiles. Jesus also wanted Paul to go to Rome (Acts 23:11). And so...what exactly?


  • In Galatians 2:7-9 we see that the Jerusalem leaders were James, Peter and John. Paul had the ministry to the gentiles and Peter the ministry of the circumcision (Jews). And so...what exactly?

  • When Peter was at Antioch he was having fellowship with the gentiles but after the Jews came he stopped having fellowship for fear of the Jews ( verses 11-15). And so...what exactly?

     






And so...Peter wasn't the authority of in the church. No one answered to him. He spoke up at the Council of Jerusalem, but remember, the dispute was with the Jewish believers, and Peter was the Apostle to the Jews, nothing more. The irony is that the RCC split with the Orthodox because Rome tried to rule over the other bishops! So if Rome was the authority prior then why did they split? Because Rome was never the authority, and still isn't.



Scripture says:



For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:5



"Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven." Matthew 23:9.











 
Link Posted: 1/29/2016 8:20:58 PM EDT
[#32]
Link Posted: 1/30/2016 8:15:53 PM EDT
[#33]
Back to the original topic, this is pertinent to the OP's situation:





Link Posted: 2/3/2016 12:25:10 PM EDT
[#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
It's kind of hard to explain. I accepted Christ as a teenager and as a young  adult even taught Sunday school. Through all of those years, I for want of a better description,  did the "Christian thing" bible study, prayer meeting, etc. But I never had any feeling that God was really "real" or that my prayers were more than an echo in the room; and I figured I just wasn't trying hard enough. Eventually I went to church less and less, over the years drifting away.

I lost my Wife to cancer 4 years ago and Christmas before last I was really low. I'd felt for awhile that God was calling me back and Christmas Day I began to read my bible again after many years. Since then I've read the bible and prayed  almost every day. Last year when I moved I started looking for a church home, found one that preached the gospel and began to attend regularly. It's a good church and the pastor really does preach the gospel. But a few months ago I began to realize I was in the same place, and the door was still closed. I've still never felt like God is real, Intellectually I might believe it, but from the hearts perspective I could be just trying to make it all up.

I have a sincere interest in the things of God  and listening to good preaching and teaching, love hymns, still read my bible and pray every day. But I still feel like I'm isolated from God, and none of it makes any difference in my life. I could stop all of it and my life would be just the same. I can't tell people what God did for me because other than what the bible says, I have no idea if he's ever done anything.g

I don't need healing or miracles, gee wiz experiences or great answers to prayers, speaking in tongues, a great life, etc. Just a little assurance from God that he's out there and he really does care about me.

Thanks guys, it's hard to put 50 years of struggle down in a few words.

And many thanks for your prayers too, maybe yours work better than mine.

View Quote

Your experience is not unique, many people go through valleys such as yours, I would dare to say all people at one point or another. But, you're describing your whole life as being a valley which is a little different. Here are some questions you may want to answer to yourself and not necessarily answer here:

1. Are you serving where God wants you to serve?  We are all given spiritual gifts and we have them to be used, not stored away or hidden. We are to use those gifts to further His kingdom and bring Him glory, not to receive glory or to glorify ourselves. 2. Are there any unconfessed sins in your life? Sin separates us from God. Not that He leaves us, but it creates a sort of cloud that makes it where we can't see or hear from Him. 3 Are you focused on you, or are you focused on Him?  We should seek Him first. 4. Are you doing your best to put on the full armor of God every morning? If you aren't familiar with it then I urge you to study it, it's very important. Note: the armor is not something we earn or achieve, it is given to us through Jeus Christ. 5. Do you really trust God with your whole life? This means everything; finances, relationships, career, etc.

Maybe these questions will help you to see if your heart is in the right place and if you're focused on the right things.

Link Posted: 2/4/2016 11:41:23 PM EDT
[#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I've spent most of my life seeking God and trying to be a Christian. Doing all of the things that I'm "supposed to do". At this point I've almost come to believe in the Calvinist doctrine of predestination, and I'm coming to the conclusion that I am not one of the elect and God doesn't want me.

Very hard to write this, but it is what it is. It seems that as much as I call out, there is never an answering , just the echo of my own cry.

For those of you inclined to pray for me; Thank You.
View Quote

No one seeks out God unless God first sought him. Dwell the on it.
Link Posted: 2/5/2016 1:55:34 PM EDT
[#36]
More pertinent to the OP's situation; this guy went through the same thing:





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