So with these 'books'(see list below) in circulation in the post apostolic period, Christians simply 'knew' which were canonical and which were not? Nope, some overriding authority filtered thru them and decided. It wasn't any protestant branch since they did not exist prior to the reformation. There was only one Church.

• 
  
  
  Protoevangelium
  of James
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Infancy
  Gospel of Thomas
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Gospel
  of Pseudo Matthew
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Syriac
  Infancy Gospel
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  History
  of Joseph the Carpenter
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Life
  of John the Baptist
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Gospel
  of the Ebionites
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Gospel
  of the Hebrews
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Gospel
  of the Nazarenes
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Gospel
  of Marcion (mid 2nd century)
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Gospel
  of Mani (3rd century)
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Gospel
  of Apelles
  (mid-late 2nd century)
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Gospel
  of Bardesanes
  (late 2nd - early 3rd century)
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Gospel
  of Basilides
  (mid 2nd century)
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Gospel
  of Thomas
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Gospel
  of Peter
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Gospel
  of Nicodemus (also called the "Acts of Pilate")
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Pseudo-Cyril
  of Jerusalem, On
  the Life and the Passion of Christ
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Gospel
  of Bartholomew
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Questions
  of Bartholomew
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Resurrection
  of Jesus Christ (which claims to be according
  to Bartholomew)
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  The
  Diatesseron
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Apocryphon
  of James (also called the "Secret Book of James")
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Book
  of Thomas the Contender
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Dialogue
  of the Saviour
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Gospel
  of Judas (also called the "Gospel of Judas
  Iscariot")
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Gospel
  of Mary (also called the "Gospel of Mary
  Magdalene")
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Gospel
  of Philip
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Greek
  Gospel of the Egyptians (distinct from the Coptic
  Gospel of the Egyptians)
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  The
  Sophia of Jesus Christ
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Coptic
  Apocalypse of Paul (distinct from the Apocalypse
  of Paul)
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Gospel
  of Truth
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Gnostic
  Apocalypse of Peter (distinct from the Apocalypse
  of Peter)
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Pistis
  Sophia
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Second
  Treatise of the Great Seth
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Acts
  of Andrew
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Acts
  of Barnabas
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Acts
  of John
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Acts
  of the Martyrs
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Acts
  of Paul
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Acts
  of Paul and Thecla
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Acts
  of Peter
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Acts
  of Peter and Andrew
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Acts
  of Peter and Paul
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Acts
  of Peter and the Twelve
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Acts
  of Philip
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Acts
  of Pilate
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Acts
  of Thomas
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Acts
  of Timothy
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Acts
  of Xanthippe, Polyxena, and Rebecca
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Acts
  of Andrew
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Acts
  of Barnabas
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Acts
  of John
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Acts
  of the Martyrs
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Acts
  of Paul
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Acts
  of Paul and Thecla
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Acts
  of Peter
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Acts
  of Peter and Andrew
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Acts
  of Peter and Paul
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Acts
  of Peter and the Twelve
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Acts
  of Philip
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Acts
  of Pilate
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Acts
  of Thomas
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Acts
  of Timothy
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



• 
  
  
  Acts
  of Xanthippe, Polyxena, and Rebecca
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

 

Please read history.  Yes there was only one Church.  Christianity.  There were different denominations, for lack of a better term, and the Catholic Church was but one.  The RCC was not around at this point. If it was, in your opinion, are you saying that Paul was Roman Catholic?

"Let
us note that the very tradition, teaching, and faith of the Catholic
Church from the beginning, which the Lord gave, was preached by the
Apostles, and was preserved by the Fathers.  On this was the Church founded; and if anyone departs from this, he neither is nor any longer ought to be called a Christian."  St. Athanasius, "Four Letters to Serapion of Thmuisc," c. 360 A.D.

 

I said denominations for lack of a better term.  I'm not saying they were Methodist, Presbyterians, baptist etc.  you know that.  What does Ecumenical mean?  There were multiple ecumenical councils.  Why use that term if they were not in fact ecumenical?  They were catholic.  I said that.  Read the definition man...  The Roman Catholic Church was not the precursor, it formed from the ecumenical catholic Church. yes there is a line all the way back to Jesus.  No one says otherwise.  But to say Paul was Catholic? I am assuming you don't use the term Roman Catholic, because he wasn't, but capitalize Catholic to try to infer he was...I'd say that by his teachings he would be considered in anathema by the RCC of today.  I may be mistaken but did he believe and teach indulgences? Immaculate conception? Assumpion of Mary? Purgatory? Surely if anyone would teach these things it would be Paul.  Or maybe Peter? Where did he write of these things?

All of your quotes are well and good until you recognize that church refers to all Christians and catholic means all encompassing.  Then they still are fine, but don't lead the direction you are intending to pigeon hole them into.

Forget it, Twire. They can't be reasoned with.

They don't need a Pope because they have given the title to themselves, each of them individually.

If they don't like what their fellow Bible Christian says, they just run off and start their own Bible Church.

Wash. Rinse. Repeat...

you, and I enter these discussions with presuppositions.  In order to have a worthwhile discussion, you, and I, must understand this.  There are terms, like catholic vs Catholic etc, that mean different things.  Grace means something different to you than to me.  Until we can agree on the differences in definition, or at least that there is one, these threads turn into sarcastic im better than you pile ons.  I will not get into that.  I actually enjoy good thought out discussion with people of different faith when they can be addressed point by point in a non mocking manner.  If I have digressed into that I apologize.

No one that I know has given the title Pope to themselves.  The reason I have no need for a pope is because Jesus is my high priest.  I deal directly with Him.  My church does have earthly leadership and accountability, and a ways to handle disputes and differences.

I think you missed one of the main points of the quotes. You can capitalize or not capitalize the word Catholic. Doesn't matter. What do the quotes describe? A church that offers the same worship, the same beliefs, the same traditions, the same scripture to all. So what church did that back then? What church does that now?





Yes, Paul's epistles are heretical to Catholics. That's why they are read avery Sunday at mass! Ridiculous. And then to follow up with every anti-Catholic canard on the internet--all of course based on the false and clearly non-scriptural doctrine of sola scriptura! That's hilarious.

Quoted:





No, and Sola types acknowledge tradition also.  Lots of stuff we do is tradition.

 

I'm honestly trying to follow you here..when I brought up those things I wasn't saying it to be anti catholic.  How could I? The RCC teaches them.  That isn't anti catholic.  Are you saying they were taught since the time of Christ? Ok, show me where the apostles taught that.  Or I will even step outside my Sola Scriptura mind and ask you to show me where AS a CHURCH they were taught in the first century.  Not just that one person said it.  Because you define ecumenical in a way that would say everyone believed these things.  Second century?

I really don't believe you understand what Sola Scriptura means.  Everything we need to know for our salvation is found in the Bible.  We do have traditions.  Liturgy for instance.  No one says that we do not have traditions.  We claim that traditions of men do not get us to Heaven.  But we do have them.

I am open to dialogue but you seem to just want to throw sarcasm and try to belittle people.  Not being Catholic, I still assume that a devout follower of the RCC would want others to find their views to be just and correct and for them to convert to Roman Catholisism. The attitude you take does not imply that, and in many cases seems to be an elitist know it all attitude that turns people off to your religion and causes them to disregard what you say.  That is not an insult.  Don't take it that way.  I have said the same to fellow Protestants in other threads.  I myself get caught up in these debates and lose my temper at times.  Hopefully I haven't done that here.

Why follow Luther or Constantine? Come out of the world and follow Yeshua, with the help and guidance of the Ruach Hakodesh.
The building of a fence around our Father's everlasting TORAH, and substituting in of men's traditions by the Sadducees and Pharisees is a perfect picture of Protestant's and Catholic's bickering about their own traditions of men.

Wash the inside of your cup.

Funny thing is there is no "RCC", officially. It's the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church that is commonly known as Roman Catholic, but other rites exist within the larger Catholic Church. There was no need to refer to the Church as "Roman Catholic", when "the Church" or the "Catholic Church" was enough as there was a singular Christian church at the time. (Sorry, kind of jumped across a couple of replies with that statement).

As far as what the Apostles taught...simply look at the Catholic Church (or Orthodoxy, the two are very close in theology). You can't simply look at the Bible, there are passages in the Bible itself that state everything was not written down. That is where Sacred Tradition helps fill in the gaps, so to speak.  Look at the writing of the Church Fathers; these will be viewed as commentary on the teachings of Christ. Obviously there will be issues that the early Church do not address, but the lines of thinking were set and can be used as a foundation upon which to build a discourse regarding whatever the latest issue might be.

My friend, I would welcome a discussion with you.  Thank you for your reply.

Overriding Authority? Yes its called the Holy Spirit. Seems you treat the things of God with contempt just like Gods Word. The Bible.

2 Tim
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, , and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

But its obvious you know nothing about the Holy Spirit.
So you have read all these books? How more are needed? Was the Gospel of Judas actually written by Judas Iscariot?
Some of those books listed were written by the Gnostics.

Maybe I'll ask you since Twire didn't answer this. Was Pauls letter to the Romans written to what is now called the Roman Catholic Church?

 

 

2 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 1Cor2:1-2

Paul taught only one thing and was consistent in all his writings and that was He Preached and Teached Jesus Christ crucified. Which means Salvation for the sinner, And sanctification for the Saint/Believer. (Getting the sin out of your life!) And that can only be done by the Blood that Jesus Christ shed on the Cross at Calvary.
Which I am sure are the traditions He handed down to Timothy.
Matter of Fact! The whole Bible is about the Cross of Calvary and the Story started in the garden.

And Paul and others who wrote the Epistles vehemetly spoke out against so called Christians bringing in Old testament law and other church rules, ceremonies, traditions, destructive heresies no matter how good they sounded.
The Roman Catholic church probably grew out of one of these groups.
Your not the original church, Just the oldest of the False.

Simple question? Who wrote the book of Judas? Whats hard to understand? In the meantime I will try to figure out why you listed all these books in the first place. You badmouth "sola scripture" so are these books where you get your theology from?
I cant wait for your crushing reply.

I'm not going to critique the catholic churches practices any further in this thread. I don't agree with what they do because from what I've seen and read they are engaged in practices that are in direct contradiction to what is written in the Holy Bible. However, they are not the only church disobeying the word.

No church or body of men hold power or authority over the power of God. You don't need to go through any mortal man or church to be forgiven.

Only Christ.

John 10:27-28
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."

John 14:15-17
“If you love me, you will obey my commandments.  I will ask the Father, and he will give you another helper who will be with you forever. That helper is the Spirit of Truth. The world cannot accept him, because it doesn’t see or know him. You know him, because he lives with you and will be in you.

Do you know how many verses talk about being born again and the Holy Spirit dwelling in the hearts of believers?

Link with cross reference verses on the right side of the page

I am a born again follower of Christ and the Holy Spirit lives within me. I have experienced and witnessed miracles, have had prayers answered instantly and in time, and experienced the power of the Holy Spirit. I am thankful to the Lord for all He has done for me in this life.

I hope all of you know Him.

 

"If I were not a Catholic, and
       were looking for the true Church in the world today, I would look for
       the one Church which did not get along well with the world; in other
       words, I would look for the Church which the world hated. My reason for
       doing this would be, that if Christ is in any one of the churches of the
       world today, He must still be hated as He was when He was on earth in
       the flesh. If you would find Christ today, then find the Church that
       does not get along with the world. Look for the Church that is hated by
       the world as Christ was hated by the world. Look for the Church that is
       accused of being behind the times, as our Lord was accused of being
       ignorant and never having learned. Look for the Church which men sneer
       at as socially inferior, as they sneered at Our Lord because He came
       from Nazareth. Look for the Church which is accused of having a devil,
       as Our Lord was accused of being possessed by Beelzebub, the Prince of
       Devils. Look for the Church which, in seasons of bigotry, men say must
       be destroyed in the name of God as men crucified Christ and thought they
       had done a service to God. Look for the Church which the world rejects
       because it claims it is infallible, as Pilate rejected Christ because He
       called Himself the Truth. Look for the Church which is rejected by the
       world as Our Lord was rejected by men. Look for the Church which amid
       the confusions of conflicting opinions, its members love as they love
       Christ, and respect its Voice as the very voice of its Founder, and the
       suspicion will grow, that if the Church is unpopular with the spirit of
       the world, then it is unworldly, and if it is unworldly it is other
       worldly. since it is other-worldly, it is infinitely loved and
       infinitely hated as was Christ Himself. But only that which is Divine
       can be infinitely hated and infinitely loved. Therefore the Church is
       Divine."



Archbishop Fulton Sheen

Who really cherrypicks scripture? The sola scripture people who only use the Bible as their authority? or those who have other writtings as there authority then pick a few verses to supposedly support there argument?
If you want to know what the Church was like then look at the Book of Acts and what happened on the day of Pentecost.
The Disciples were baptised in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues. Peter which denied the Lord a short time earlier now stood up and preached Jesus Christ Crucified to the very people that crucified Jesus. Peter held a evangelistic crusade on the streets of downtown Jerusalem. They went on to perform miracles of healing and other signs that could only be of God and operated in the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Peter was a Born again tongue talking Pentacostal evangelist.
And thats what the early church was, what some refer to as pentecostal. and that is not limited today to a denomination.
And when you read Peters 2 letters, He sure does not sound like a Roman Catholic of today,

Paul in his first letter to the Corinthians laid out the proper way to use the Spiritual Gifts, tongues, interpretations prophecy, the Lords supper when beleivers gathered together. (worship service) It sure is not what the catholics call Mass.
And in Pauls letter to the Romans laid out the Theology of the Church for salvation and sanctification. As the original Church members walked away from their sinfull lifestyles.

And what would I know about the Catholic church? I grew up in it. went to a catholic grade school with nuns teaching. A lot of catechism, religious talk and printed material from the church but never a Bible, never ever!

I knew sooner or later you would post a quote from this guy and his victim mentality.

I grew up in the catholic church. My mother would always tell me to stop drinking and smoking, and she sure didnt like my Harleys and the sinfull life that I was living.
When one day my sin caught up with me in 1996 and I asked God for help the Lord came thru.
After getting saved the Lord changed my heart and no longer did I have a desire to live the way I was, I sold my 2 harleys, left that sinfull lifestyle of bars, sexual immorality, drunkeness.
The Lord took away any desire I had to drink alcohol and cure my nicotine addiction.

Now do you think that my Mother a staunch catholic would thank the Lord and praise Him for the change Jesus made in my life? That she always told me I should do?
No! When she learned I left the catholic church for an Assembly of God she told me I joined a cult!
Heard a lot off other obnoxious and Godless comments from the original church crowd.
maybe there just feeling guilty about there own sin that they are still stuck in.

I understand the quitting smoking and drinking...and maybe selling ONE Harley...but did you have to sell both?

I could make a good case that he should consider the LDS using that criteria.

I'm not implying that owning a Harley is sin, it is not. neither is Gun ownership. I was born again into a new life with Christ. I looked at them one day and the chrome did not shine like it used to so I sold them.
There was a scripture that when I read it described how I felt. Cant find it at the moment. But Jesus said "The Kingdom of Heaven is like a man who found a great treasure in a field. Then he went and sold everything he had and bought that field." Now you have me wanting to get out my Bible and find it.

Smoking and drinking alcohol are a bondage. they are unGodly, unhealthy habits that control part of your life. Costing you money and in the case of alcohol. It may cause you do do things you would not when sober.
And more then likely that thing alcohol makes you do is sin.

I agree with you.  I sold a bike right before I got married 17 years ago and still miss it sometimes.  I wasn't implying it was a sin, just joking with you.

Matthew 13:44

Yep! That was the Scripture, and thats how I felt.

 

That explains a lot. Rebellious children generally remain rebellious.



 

Especially on this board!



But really his point is pretty valid. Secularists hate the Catholics, Protestants barely tolerate the Catholics, fundamentalists damn us to hell. Sheen was on the money in that off the cuff radio reply.



 

Typical Godless response.
It was the Holy Spirit that delivered me from a sinfull lifestyle.
Oh well. The pharisees blasphemed the Holy Spirit when Jesus cast out demons. Your response does not surprise me and I even heard worse from your church.

Real Christians don't hate anyone. We detest sin, including our own when we commit one.

I only bring up the blasphemies of the catholic church because it's what we are supposed to do when we see a brother in Christ stumbling.

2 Timothy 2:23-26
Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

Also read Matthew 18:15-18

“Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth” (1 Corinthians 13:6)

Here are some examples.

What does the Bible say about idolatry? Bowing before statues and graven images?













What does the Bible say about who you are to worship? Just who does the pope think he is sitting on a golden throne?







What about the scripture where it says call no man father?

In Matthew 23:1–12, Jesus is denouncing the Jewish scribes and Pharisees for rejecting Him as their Messiah, in particular for their hypocrisy in elevating themselves above others with titles such as “teacher” and “master.” The Jewish teachers affected that title because they supposed that a teacher formed the man, or gave him real life, and they sought, therefore, to be called “father,” as if they were the source of truth rather than God. Christ taught them that the source of all life and truth is God, and they ought not to seek or receive a title which properly belongs to Him.

In the case of the “holy father,” there is no doubt this is unbiblical. No man can take on the title of “holy” anything, because only God is holy. This title gives the pope a status that is never intended for any man on earth. Even the apostle Paul referred to himself as the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15) and cried out, “Who will deliver me from this body of death?” (Romans 7:14). Clearly, Paul made no claim to holiness. Although as Christians we have exchanged our sin for the righteousness of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21), holiness will not be attained until we are in heaven and have left the last vestiges of our sin natures behind. Until then, the pope has no more holiness than the average Christian and is not entitled to be called “holy father.”

But there is no reason not to call our earthly parents “father” and “mother” because in doing so we are not giving them an elevated title or position that belongs to God. Our earthly parents are worthy of honor, not just on one special day of the year (Father’s Day, Mother’s Day), but we are to honor our parents daily in the spirit of Exodus 20:12, Matthew 15:4, and Ephesians 6:1-3.

Read the rest at this link: Click here

The Bible says that it is good for a man to marry. Yet the catholic church forbids their priests from doing so.

Read an explantation here

I could go on and on with other non-biblical practices and blasphemies of the catholic church.

I encourage you to put your faith and adoration in God and not a corrupt institution.

If you choose to ignore these blasphemies and accept the excuses of the catholic church for their actions, then that is between you and God.

I only encourage you to seek the truth and read your Bible. Your faith should not be put in rules and regulations written by catholics over the years. Actually read the Bible and the words of our Messiah Jesus Christ.

Put your faith in Him, humble yourself before Him, and He will answer. He says He will, and He always keeps His word.

The Bible says God is the giver of wisdom in James 1:5

My hope is that you all do or will know Him, and are led by the Holy Spirit.

You really have no idea what you are talking about. But I'm sure reverend Billy Bob learned  you about them Catholics.

Your little rant is right out of a Jack chick tract.

Its your story, not mine. Please clarify how I am wrong. You rebelled in school, your behaviors separated yourself from the Church that your were raised in and your mother. You never cared to study or understand the faith passed on to you by your parents. You eventually sought forgiveness and change outside of the Church or your family, and did not have the wherewithal to try and reconcile yourself to it. The prodigal son came begging forgiveness and followed the 4th commandment. The story that YOU related did not seem to indicate that you followed that pattern. That's why I concluded that you are still in a state of rebellion.

Sheer ignorance.



 

How blind are you? Does satan cast out satan?
Do you have power over the devil and demon spirits? Can you walk out of sin by your own power?
The devil was defeated at the cross of Calvary and by the Power of the Holy Spirit which is and indwelling Gift inside the heart of the beleiver. It gives the power over sin.

You'd think that original church Christians such as Twire would rejoice at someone defeating the devil. But instead they badmouth and belittle you because you left there church.
Ever thought that your Church and its own teachings actually keep you in sin?
And you shall know the Truth and the truth shall make you free. John8:32
If the Son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed! John 8:36

However if you follow false teaching about God, you'll fall into and stay in sins bondage. Just ask Adam and Eve.
If the Roman Catholic church ever was the first church, Its fallen from Grace long ago.
I suggest picking up the Book of Romans and re-read it or read it for the first time.
For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under Grace.   Rom 8:42

Am I going to hell because I left your church?

Sin no longer has dominion over my life! Thank you Jesus for what You did on the Cross!

My mistake on the scripture, It is Romans 6:14
So what does the catholic church teach on how to get sin out of your life?

I think you know the answer already. Prayer, sacraments.



613      Christ’s death is both the Paschal sacrifice that accomplishes the definitive redemption of men, through "the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world,”⁴³⁹ and the sacrifice of the New Covenant,
which restores man to communion with God by reconciling him to God
through the "blood of the covenant, which was poured out for many for
the forgiveness of sins.”⁴⁴⁰ (1366, 2009)

618      The cross is the unique sacrifice of Christ, the "one mediator between God and men.”⁴⁵²
But because in his incarnate divine person he has in some way united
himself to every man, "the possibility of being made partners, in a way
known to God, in the paschal mystery” is offered to all men.

         

          "Apart from the cross there is no other ladder by which we may get to heaven."

1Cor 6:9-11
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God

When Paul wrote this he was talking to the church, not pagans. it says "That is what some of you were" So this tells us that people can get of of there sinfull lifestyle. I am not talking about being "sinless" Thats impossible.
I am talking about getting out of sin that defines your life. People are known as murderers, thieves, adulterers, etc.

My answer to them would not be Prayer or Sacraments. I'm sure "those priests" prayed and partook of your Sacraments but it did not do them any good.
2 Reasons, if taking a Sacrament will get them out of sin, Why didnt it? Did they not do it enough? Or is the Sacrament not what you say it is?

The main problem with that is you are telling them to "do something" which is a work of the flesh and thats why they fail.
I did the same thing! And this is when I was not a Catholic. I was saved and had a life changing experience with Jesus Christ. However, I still had an issue with a sin in my life. (don't need to say what it was)
I did not want to do it but found myself giving in to it. Paul talked about struggling with sin. so was I.

I talk to a pastor and they would tell me, You have to try harder, pray more, fast, tithe, get involved in the church, etc. Did all that but still had that thing that would not go away.
What they were telling me was I had to "do something" in order to receive a deliverance. It does not work that way. God does not owe you something because you do whatever. The Holy Spirit will
not work among your work of the Flesh. The Holy Spirit can only work when you exhibit faith in what Jesus did on the Cross. Then the Holy Spirit can work in your life. When I figured that out. That thing in my life left.

You had a good statement. "Apart from the cross there is no other ladder by which we may get to heaven." Not only is the Cross the ONLY way to the Father, it is also only way out of sin.
Not works of the flesh but by the Lords Spirit.

Sacraments are not works of the flesh. They are works of God. Performed by God in us. The word sacrament means 'mystery.'

Remember this catechetical gem from the Baltimore edition:



Question: What is a Sacrament?

Answer: A Sacrament is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace.

If it is what you say it is, A work of God performed in us. Just receiving the Sacrament would have the evidence of an outward change in the person. But yet there is no change in there life.
But then first you say a Sacrament is a work of God performed in us, But then say is an outward sign instituted by God to give grace. Not following this at all. you say its 2 different things.

How many times do you need to receive it before anyone in sin starts to actually walk away from it? I am just using "those Priests" as an example. Not picking on them. For the non catholic world has its problems and I have seen it in the church I attended. And I already mentioned my own issues.
I am sure they were receiving the Sacrament even before becoming priests. But still stuck in that sin?

Now going to Mass, reading the Bible, fasting, getting involved at church, etc is wonderfull. However people start thinking because they do those things that they are Godly and God owes them something. Thats self rightousness, based on a work of the flesh and God will not accept it.

 

Putting your faith in what Jesus did at Calvary as the Sacrificial Lamb is the only thing that the Father will accept for Salvation and Sanctification.
Many think that because the Say that Jesus is the Son of God that they are saved. However they really might be putting there faith in the church they attend, the things they do, the church rules they follow etc.
Matthew 7:21
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Doing things does not save or sanctify.

You are correct.



 

Enjoy your Thanksgiving, Thank the Lord for all He's done and continuing to do until His return.
And Thank him for the freedom we have to speak freely in this forum.

Likewise, sir

It's not that our Protestant brethren are ignorant, it's just that they know so much about Catholicism that just isn't so...

That goes both ways.  And to compound things I'd say there are many Protestants and Catholics who don't know much about what their church believes.  I think there are lots on both sides that are what they are because that's what their parents were etc.  they don't look any further than that.  Parents were Baptist, Catholic etc so they don't question anything and that's what they are.