This is so the other thread doesn't get ot.   The matter of a rapture is not a issue that defines whether or not you are a christian.  That said, christians have different views.  I personally don't believe christians will be beamed up before any tribulation.  If I'm wrong that's great.  Are you pre, post or mid rapture and can you back it up?

You guys still here?

 
 

Yea beamed up aint gonna happen.....to see the light you gotta die.

Historic pre millennialist here.

I think that the book of Revelation makes a heck of a lot more sense when read with the book of Exodus in mind.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 KJV
[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

All I know is this...

If there is a Rapture, and I'm left behind, I hope it happens while I'm still young enough to fight on the good side rather than sitting around useless...

Here are a few names you might recognize that believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture.C.I.Scofield,Harry A. Ironside, Gleason Archer,Donald G.Barnhouse, Hal Lindsey, John MacArthur, Charles Ryrie, Charles Stanley,Norman L. Geisler, and Tim LaHaye. There names appear in Rose Book Of Bible Charts,Maps & Time Lines. The church is not mentioned in Revelation from chapter 4 on to the end. Has Christ taken his bride [ The Church ]? We are not appointed to wrath. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 .John5:24, Rev.3:10, Romans 8:1. The Holy Spirit will be removed during theTribulation. The Holy Spirit indwells all believers.

Doesn't matter who "believes" in it.

Pre-tribulation rapture is a concept invented whole in the late 19th / early 20th century. It was neve believed by anyone in the Church before then. This is what happens when people without authority start making stuff up.

The next time Christ comes, it will be all at once. Game over. Time's up.

Revelation is so symbolic that it can be taken for ANYTHING...

Rev. 6:9  When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”
Rev 12:17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Matt 13:29 But he *said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”
(The tares are the ones "Taken Away".)

Luke 17:36 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left.” 37 And answering they *said to Him, “Where, Lord?” And He said to them, “Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered.”

Matt 24:29 “But immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Taken away is an Hebrew idiom for destruction.
I want to be LEFT BEHIND!

I was raised in pre-trib teaching, but I'm a post-trib guy now. The argument that "it was never believed before" is a moot point. The point is whether God's Word says it is so or not. If Christ's followers didn't figure it out until the past century or two doesn't make it any more or less likely to happen.

Also, since when is the book of Revelation the only book relevant to end times theology? (answer = it isn't)


Either way, I don't think it is in any way something that any of us should be dogmatic about. Prophecy is one of those things that is up to God. The Jews were waiting for the Messiah when He arrived on scene and most of them completely missed Him or thought Him a heretic. They had interpreted prophecy incorrectly and were waiting for the one that would come in a way much like what Jesus' second coming will be like. I think when it finally happens, a lot of theologians will be taken by surprise.

Yes. Luke 17 makes this pretty plain. "Just as in the days of Noah..." and the inclusion of Lot's wife and Sodom and Gomorrah. The "taken up" refers to the destruction and death that will ensue, not a free pass for the believers.

Those are the verses that pretty much  nailed it for me.  It is pretty hard to argue with.

you're forgetting the tribulation saints. if the church was meant to go through the tribulation then what about the jewish wedding theme amongst other things? the tribulation is meant for the nation of israel, not the church, there is a very clear distinction.

I agree. Thank you.

I thought you said earlier that the Holy Sprit was removed during the Tribulation. How then could the Spirit come into these tribulation saints?

This is typical pinheaded intellectual theology. Throw the Jews under the bus, while we're whisked away. We need to look at Scripture with the eyes of children.
Luke 18:17 Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.”

Members of the Church are also the Children of Israel. We are the wild branch, grafted in, who provoke the natural branch to jealousy, so that they may be grafted in again. That's kind of hard to do if the Church is gone.

Romans 11:11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”

27 “This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

The 2nd coming is just that, the 2nd coming. There is no 2nd coming A&B, or a partial 2nd coming to snatch the Church, and then return.
Their is one Messiah for ALL of Israel.

the church is the church, israel is israel, distinction and purpose. you're forgetting the 144,000 witnesses during the tribulation whom will be saved from israel.

Your the man ! What you are stating is what my church teaches. Hope to study my bible in the time we have left, and catch up with you. I want to back you up but, haven't spent the time I should have studying the book. Keep up the good work . Rev. 14:12   Revelation ends saved by grace , and brings back faith and works for tribulation saints.

If your left behind it means your NOT on the good side lol!!!

Please explain the verses where Jesus said the wicked will be gathered first.  Or how if Jesus comes to gather the believers and then the tribulation occurs and then He returns, we do not read about this? That would be the Third coming of Christ.
Gal 6 v 15-16 says there is no difference anymore
Romans 9 v 6-8
Galatians 3 v 29
And I am not saying the Church replaced Israel.  I am quoting the Bible as saying we are grafted in now.  One and the same.  God said that, not me.

Please tell me what verse tells you that the Holy Spirit will be removed during the tribulation.

Then show me one or two more to verify that fact.


Daniel 12 very clearly tells us who the restrainer is.   Angels
1“Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.

See Matt.  24  15“Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),      21“For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

Heb 12:14
Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to render service to those who will inherit salvation.




If you unable to provide a verse or two to prove your doctrine then maybe you should reconsider your beliefs as I had to do once presented with the truth.



The Church, IE, believers, saints are mentioned many times throughout the Revelation.   Were did they get their perseverance if they are all new converts?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YWoR4xnF_sk

The doctrine of imminence is joined at the hip with the pre-trib rapture. What imminence means is that there is no event that has to happen before the rapture. This doctrine is easily falsifiable by various Bible passages.

1 theselonians 4:16 says Jesus will return with a loud shout and a trump.  It says the dead in Christ shall be taken first then the Believers.  This matches the verses about the two men in the field and the two women.  Sinners taken first, then believers..then Judgement.  Plus Jesus coming with a shout is not a secret vanishing of believers as pre trib people like to say.

Here is another video, I may have screwed up that other link:
http://youtu.be/sgHg_mvfYjg

this notion sinners are raptured is as lurdicious as saying the church replaces israel. people are clearly failing to divide the Word as paul instructed.
life will be normal and then it will happen.

The tribulation is for Israel, not the church. there are tribulation saints who will be physically saved and matthew 24 deals with physical salvation not the spiritual aspect.

Bravo42, I agree with you about the church NOT replacing Israel. However, the pre-trib rapture is rather easily falsified by scripture.

I'll third that.  Nowhere does it say the Church replaces Israel.  Grafted in we are.....Jew and Gentile.  Not replaced.  The Jews are still there...we are the ones that are grafted into them.

Agreed! that said it better happen soon

KD5TXX - would you elaborate on "the dead in Christ shall be taken first then the Believers?" Are you suggesting that the lost are raptured prior to believers after the tribulation or are you suggesting that the lost are wiped out after the tribulation and the remaining believers are raptured?

I have not looked at that verse since ascribing to post-trib rapture. I had always heard that this verse referred to "dead believers" rising from the grave and ascending prior to the living believers in a pre-trib rapture scenario. I believe this is a big verse that folks point to in regards to the "soul sleep" idea also. I have never thought of the term "dead in Christ" to refer to lost sinners instead of dead believers.

You are correct to point out that I misspoke. The two illustrations are separate and I confused them.  The dead in Christ are resurrected believers.  The two verses I referenced and the one about the days of noah, talk about the sinners being taken.  Not this one.

Brother, I can barely do 20 push-ups while on my knees, and only the Lord knows how far I can drag my 300-pound butt.

So yeah, He better hurry.

Maybe you could just rapture away 100 pounds or so...

What about the others like me?

Debbie Downer...

He doesn't believe on ZombiesWalking Dead................

I don't believe in a pre trib rapture
The wheat and tares grow together until the harvest
I am a practicing Mormon

Can't speak for anyone else..but I've been saved from the wrath to come.    A proud member of the Grace Administration !    The Book of Revelation does not apply directly to me....Praise the Father !  

Can't speak for anyone else..but I've been saved from the wrath to come.    A proud member of the Grace Administration !    The Book of Revelation does not apply directly to me....Praise the Father !  

Amen. We might see each other real soon the way things are going.

My problem with pre trib rapture thinking( besides that I think it is wrong) is that a lot of believers in it think  they don't need to worry about things to come and get a free pass.  We should be working to spread the Gospel and trying to help others come to Christ before it's to late instead of  waiting on the curb for the Jesus bus.

That's how I see it too. Plus, it's just not Biblical.

Can't speak for others but, our church is having revival meetings every night this week. Our pastor gives and invitation to except Christ everytime the church doors are open. And he is pushing folks to witness and bring people to church all the time. The only buses we have are for picking up kids and taking them to Bible study and church. Too many churches are entertaining or ear tickling. Word not being preached, or Bible not being taught or read. We may see some trouble. Christian are being killed every day for their beliefs. But, When Christ calls his bride the Holy Spirit will be removed. Then my friend, you will really see trouble like never before. We are not being told to wait for the Christ bus at my church.

Good!  I don't mean to say that everyone who believes in pre trib does this.  But to say that it is easy to fall into this way of thinking.  I know of many pre trib believers who work hard to spread the gospel.

Our Messiah will return AFTER the tribulation.

The Glorious Return

Matt. 24:29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from ]the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.


The Return of Christ

Mark 13:24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

We still need to see this verse that tells you the Holy Spirit will be removed.    

If you can't show us a verse or two to support your teaching then,   were does that teaching come from?

As far as his bride, Revelation 19 is pretty clear about when she is ready to go.



Marriage of the Lamb

  19:7 “Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.” 8 It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

     9 Then he said to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.’” And he said to me, “These are true words of God.” 10 Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”



The Coming of Christ

     11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

Stogerman said
Asked my pastor about Holy Spirit being withdrawn 2 weeks ago. He couldn't give me a verse but, said it had to do with dispensationalism. Didn't have a lot of time as he was going to back of church to greet everyone as they left. When I get this nailed down, I will let you know. Let me close by saying many bible teachers have stated that the Holy Spirit will be removed in the end times. I just never asked exactly where that was in the bible. When I have the time, I will get this nailed down and respond.
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Dispensationalisim is a term invented to make people think that things written in the past do not apply to us now.

However the Bible declares that whatever was written, was written for our instruction.  Romans 15:4 and 1 Corinthians 10:11.

Many teachers can say whatever they want and if enough folks believe them does that make it true?   That's what Hitler did.  He told a lie over and over until they believed it.

I believed in a pretrib rupture because I kept hearing about it on the radio,( Hal Lindsey, Jack Van impe, Chuck Smith, J Vernon Magee and many others), but when I would read the Bible it  bothered me that I could not find any evidence of a disappearing church.  

Matthew 13 finally set me free.
49“So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,

A few verses that remind us not to alter His Word.

DO NOT ADD
Revelation 22:18-19 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

Deuteronomy 4:2 "You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you."

Proverbs 30:5-6 Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words lest He reprove you, and you be proved a liar."

Ecclesiastes 3:14 I know that everything God does will remain forever; there is nothing to add to it and there is nothing to take from it, for God has so worked that men should fear Him.

1 Corinthians 4:6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that in us you might learn not to exceed what is written, in order that no one of you might become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.