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Posted: 12/18/2014 8:39:32 PM EDT
Lets just start small shall we.


Mary is the Mother of God.  


Can we all agree on this much?

2) Mary is His true mother (Is 7:14; Matt 1:16,18;  2:11,13,20; 12:46; Lk 1:31,35,43; Jn 1:15; 2:1; Gal 4:4).




 
Link Posted: 12/18/2014 8:56:07 PM EDT
[#1]
She's the genetic conduit to both the Levites and David, making the diminished corporeal manifestation of God a prophetic fulfillment... I think.
Link Posted: 12/18/2014 8:58:48 PM EDT
[#2]
Tagging for anti-Catholic vitriol disguised as passion for "scriptural truth."
Link Posted: 12/18/2014 9:05:43 PM EDT
[#3]
Without a doubt!  This was formally declared at the Council of Ephesus in 431.  At the time of the council, Nestorius refused to use the term Theotokos (bearer of God) and preferred Christotokos (bearer of Christ).  Seems like a subtle difference, but it was so important because it's the difference between Jesus being God or not.  

If Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God.  If He's not God, then Mary is not the mother of God.  It's that simple.

Good reading here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theotokos

ETA:  Even when I was a Protestant I was agreeable to this.  It feels a little weird calling a human the Mother of God at first, but it makes more sense when you realize it refers to the incarnation of God, not that Mary is the mother of Father and Holy Ghost as well, as if she somehow predated the Trinity.
Link Posted: 12/18/2014 9:17:11 PM EDT
[#4]
Who is this question directed to, Protestants, Catholics, or both?  I wouldn't want to answer the question and then be called a Catholic hater if my answer doesn't line up with the Catholic Church as Bohr Adams already predicted would happen.
Link Posted: 12/18/2014 9:37:16 PM EDT
[#5]
yes, I can agree that she is the mother of Jesus, what I can't agree with is worshipping her,  she was a normal woman with no special feets or deeds done on her own.  In fact, I can only think of one reference to her after Jesus was born,  anyone know which reference I am referring too?
Link Posted: 12/18/2014 9:37:40 PM EDT
[#6]
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Who is this question directed to, Protestants, Catholics, or both?  I wouldn't want to answer the question and then be called a Catholic hater if my answer doesn't line up with the Catholic Church as Bohr Adams already predicted would happen.
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Catholic Hater!  





Link Posted: 12/18/2014 9:40:11 PM EDT
[#7]
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Quoted:
yes, I can agree that she is the mother of Jesus, what I can't agree with is worshipping her,  she was a normal woman with no special feets or deeds done on her own.  In fact, I can only think of one reference to her after Jesus was born,  anyone know which reference I am referring too?
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The Finding of Jesus in the Temple?  The Wedding Feast at Cana?  The Crucifixion?  Revelation 12?
Link Posted: 12/18/2014 9:42:57 PM EDT
[#8]
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Catholic Hater!  





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Who is this question directed to, Protestants, Catholics, or both?  I wouldn't want to answer the question and then be called a Catholic hater if my answer doesn't line up with the Catholic Church as Bohr Adams already predicted would happen.


Catholic Hater!  






No, no, no!  You're suppose to wait until I answer!  You jumped the gun on that one and ruined the surprise
Link Posted: 12/18/2014 10:00:49 PM EDT
[#9]
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The Finding of Jesus in the Temple?  The Wedding Feast at Cana?  The Crucifixion?  Revelation 12?
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yes, I can agree that she is the mother of Jesus, what I can't agree with is worshipping her,  she was a normal woman with no special feets or deeds done on her own.  In fact, I can only think of one reference to her after Jesus was born,  anyone know which reference I am referring too?


The Finding of Jesus in the Temple?  The Wedding Feast at Cana?  The Crucifixion?  Revelation 12?

In revelation 12 the woman is believed to be Israel

"d. A woman clothed with the sun: Scripturally, this woman clothed with the sun should be identified with Israel, according to Joseph's dream (Genesis 37:9-11). In that dream, the sun represented Jacob, the moon represented Joseph's mother Rachel, and the eleven stars were the sons of Israel which bowed down to Joseph. In this sign with twelve stars, Joseph is now among the other tribes of Israel.

i. In other Old Testament passages, Israel (or Zion or Jerusalem) is often represented as a woman (Isaiah 54:1-6, Jeremiah 3:20, Ezekiel 16:8-14, and Hosea 2:19-20)."
Link Posted: 12/18/2014 11:22:53 PM EDT
[#10]

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In revelation 12 the woman is believed to be Israel



"d. A woman clothed with the sun: Scripturally, this woman clothed with the sun should be identified with Israel, according to Joseph's dream (Genesis 37:9-11). In that dream, the sun represented Jacob, the moon represented Joseph's mother Rachel, and the eleven stars were the sons of Israel which bowed down to Joseph. In this sign with twelve stars, Joseph is now among the other tribes of Israel.



i. In other Old Testament passages, Israel (or Zion or Jerusalem) is often represented as a woman (Isaiah 54:1-6, Jeremiah 3:20, Ezekiel 16:8-14, and Hosea 2:19-20)."
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Quoted:


Quoted:

yes, I can agree that she is the mother of Jesus, what I can't agree with is worshipping her,  she was a normal woman with no special feets or deeds done on her own.  In fact, I can only think of one reference to her after Jesus was born,  anyone know which reference I am referring too?




The Finding of Jesus in the Temple?  The Wedding Feast at Cana?  The Crucifixion?  Revelation 12?


In revelation 12 the woman is believed to be Israel



"d. A woman clothed with the sun: Scripturally, this woman clothed with the sun should be identified with Israel, according to Joseph's dream (Genesis 37:9-11). In that dream, the sun represented Jacob, the moon represented Joseph's mother Rachel, and the eleven stars were the sons of Israel which bowed down to Joseph. In this sign with twelve stars, Joseph is now among the other tribes of Israel.



i. In other Old Testament passages, Israel (or Zion or Jerusalem) is often represented as a woman (Isaiah 54:1-6, Jeremiah 3:20, Ezekiel 16:8-14, and Hosea 2:19-20)."
So the city of Israel gave birth to Jesus?





 
Link Posted: 12/19/2014 12:32:02 AM EDT
[#11]
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So the city of Israel gave birth to Jesus?

 
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yes, I can agree that she is the mother of Jesus, what I can't agree with is worshipping her,  she was a normal woman with no special feets or deeds done on her own.  In fact, I can only think of one reference to her after Jesus was born,  anyone know which reference I am referring too?


The Finding of Jesus in the Temple?  The Wedding Feast at Cana?  The Crucifixion?  Revelation 12?

In revelation 12 the woman is believed to be Israel

"d. A woman clothed with the sun: Scripturally, this woman clothed with the sun should be identified with Israel, according to Joseph's dream (Genesis 37:9-11). In that dream, the sun represented Jacob, the moon represented Joseph's mother Rachel, and the eleven stars were the sons of Israel which bowed down to Joseph. In this sign with twelve stars, Joseph is now among the other tribes of Israel.

i. In other Old Testament passages, Israel (or Zion or Jerusalem) is often represented as a woman (Isaiah 54:1-6, Jeremiah 3:20, Ezekiel 16:8-14, and Hosea 2:19-20)."
So the city of Israel gave birth to Jesus?

 

The city of Israel?
Link Posted: 12/19/2014 9:20:18 AM EDT
[#12]
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Tagging for anti-Catholic vitriol disguised as passion for "scriptural truth."
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This.

Although I'm not sure what the need is for this thread, given the ugliness of the last one.
Link Posted: 12/19/2014 9:28:55 AM EDT
[#13]
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So the city of Israel gave birth to Jesus?

 
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yes, I can agree that she is the mother of Jesus, what I can't agree with is worshipping her,  she was a normal woman with no special feets or deeds done on her own.  In fact, I can only think of one reference to her after Jesus was born,  anyone know which reference I am referring too?


The Finding of Jesus in the Temple?  The Wedding Feast at Cana?  The Crucifixion?  Revelation 12?

In revelation 12 the woman is believed to be Israel

"d. A woman clothed with the sun: Scripturally, this woman clothed with the sun should be identified with Israel, according to Joseph's dream (Genesis 37:9-11). In that dream, the sun represented Jacob, the moon represented Joseph's mother Rachel, and the eleven stars were the sons of Israel which bowed down to Joseph. In this sign with twelve stars, Joseph is now among the other tribes of Israel.

i. In other Old Testament passages, Israel (or Zion or Jerusalem) is often represented as a woman (Isaiah 54:1-6, Jeremiah 3:20, Ezekiel 16:8-14, and Hosea 2:19-20)."
So the city of Israel gave birth to Jesus?

 

Before I go any further I'll need you to sign a waiver that says I won't be called a catholic hater for stating my views. After all, you asked the question, right?

Is this a thread to see what non catholics believe and their evidence for such beliefs, or is it to state what the Catholic Church believes?  In the locutions thread, SAE was chastised by you for entering a catholic thread and stating his beliefs. I don't want to step on toes the way SAE apparently was viewed as doing. If you would like a discussion thread then I'm all for it, but if you or other catholics will take offense to someone disagreeing with you then I'll stay out from here on out.
Link Posted: 12/19/2014 11:09:35 AM EDT
[#14]
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yes, I can agree that she is the mother of Jesus, what I can't agree with is worshipping her,  she was a normal woman with no special feets or deeds done on her own.  In fact, I can only think of one reference to her after Jesus was born,  anyone know which reference I am referring too?
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Who worships her?

Never understood the fear people have of Mary. Everybody's supposed to consider her blessed after all.
Link Posted: 12/19/2014 11:32:04 AM EDT
[#15]
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Who worships her?

Never understood the fear people have of Mary. Everybody's supposed to consider her blessed after all.
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yes, I can agree that she is the mother of Jesus, what I can't agree with is worshipping her,  she was a normal woman with no special feets or deeds done on her own.  In fact, I can only think of one reference to her after Jesus was born,  anyone know which reference I am referring too?


Who worships her?

Never understood the fear people have of Mary. Everybody's supposed to consider her blessed after all.


Without their strawman, they are forced to actually discuss things like grown adults - respectfully.  Can't have that.  Instead, you have to take a woman that God chose among all others, to whoe Gabriel said "blessed art though among women," and dismiss her as "just some woman." Oh no, Gabriel was "worshipping" Mary!!!!! OMG!!!!
Link Posted: 12/19/2014 11:32:09 AM EDT
[#16]
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Quoted:


Who worships her?

Never understood the fear people have of Mary. Everybody's supposed to consider her blessed after all.
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yes, I can agree that she is the mother of Jesus, what I can't agree with is worshipping her,  she was a normal woman with no special feets or deeds done on her own.  In fact, I can only think of one reference to her after Jesus was born,  anyone know which reference I am referring too?


Who worships her?

Never understood the fear people have of Mary. Everybody's supposed to consider her blessed after all.


Yeah, the hidden premise behind the anti-Mary vitriol is a tacit rejection of Christ's humanity.

In that sense there's something somewhat Gnostic to it, if not a complete and explicit rejection of Christ's humanity, at least the suggestion that His humanity was incidental to the salvific nature of His sacrifice.  Which of course makes no sense since it was His humanity which suffered on the cross, His blood shed and His side pierced.
Link Posted: 12/19/2014 11:34:56 AM EDT
[#17]
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Without their strawman, they are forced to actually discuss things like grown adults - respectfully.  Can't have that.  Instead, you have to take a woman that God chose among all others, to whoe Gabriel said "blessed art though among women," and dismiss her as "just some woman." Oh no, Gabriel was "worshipping" Mary!!!!! OMG!!!!
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yes, I can agree that she is the mother of Jesus, what I can't agree with is worshipping her,  she was a normal woman with no special feets or deeds done on her own.  In fact, I can only think of one reference to her after Jesus was born,  anyone know which reference I am referring too?


Who worships her?

Never understood the fear people have of Mary. Everybody's supposed to consider her blessed after all.


Without their strawman, they are forced to actually discuss things like grown adults - respectfully.  Can't have that.  Instead, you have to take a woman that God chose among all others, to whoe Gabriel said "blessed art though among women," and dismiss her as "just some woman." Oh no, Gabriel was "worshipping" Mary!!!!! OMG!!!!


Not to mention that her suffering was intertwined with Christ's in a very unique and intimate way.  Thus Simeon's warning to her that her heart would be pierced 'as if with a sword'.

She knew from the start that extreme unhappiness and suffering lay at the end of her path and bore it anyway out of great faith and love.  In that sense she really is the mother of our salvation.
Link Posted: 12/19/2014 12:18:59 PM EDT
[#18]
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Without their strawman, they are forced to actually discuss things like grown adults - respectfully.  Can't have that.  Instead, you have to take a woman that God chose among all others, to whoe Gabriel said "blessed art though among women," and dismiss her as "just some woman." Oh no, Gabriel was "worshipping" Mary!!!!! OMG!!!!
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yes, I can agree that she is the mother of Jesus, what I can't agree with is worshipping her,  she was a normal woman with no special feets or deeds done on her own.  In fact, I can only think of one reference to her after Jesus was born,  anyone know which reference I am referring too?


Who worships her?

Never understood the fear people have of Mary. Everybody's supposed to consider her blessed after all.


Without their strawman, they are forced to actually discuss things like grown adults - respectfully.  Can't have that.  Instead, you have to take a woman that God chose among all others, to whoe Gabriel said "blessed art though among women," and dismiss her as "just some woman." Oh no, Gabriel was "worshipping" Mary!!!!! OMG!!!!


Yup, just some woman. Who somehow was full of grace (which only comes via Christ) before Christ had been conceived as man. Nope, nothing special about that. Just a vessel.

paris-dakar makes a good point about the Gnostic thing too. As has been said, all the new heresies are just old repackaged heresies.
Link Posted: 12/19/2014 12:52:21 PM EDT
[#19]
This thread seems an appropriate place to post this sad news:  A Scandalous Makeover at Chartres

Carried away by the splendors of the moment, I did not initially realize that something was very wrong. I had noticed the floor-to-ceiling scrim-covered scaffolding near the crossing of the nave and transepts, but had assumed it was routine maintenance. But my more attentive wife, the architectural historian Rosemarie Haag Bletter—who as a Columbia doctoral candidate took courses on Romanesque sculpture with the legendary Meyer Schapiro and Gothic architecture with the great medievalist Robert Branner—immediately noticed that large areas of the sanctuary’s deep gray limestone surface had been painted.  The first portion she pointed out was a pale ochre wall patterned with thin, perpendicular white lines mimicking mortar between masonry blocks. Looking upward we then saw panels of blue faux marbre, high above them gilded column capitals and bosses (the ornamental knobs where vault ribs intersect), and, nearby, floor-to-ceiling piers covered in glossy yellow trompe l’oeil marbling, like some funeral parlor in Little Italy...

The belief that a heavy-duty reworking can allow us see the cathedral as its makers did is not only magical thinking but also a foolhardy concept that makes authentic artifacts look fake. To cite only one obvious solecism, the artificial lighting inside the present-day cathedral—which no one has suggested removing—already makes the interiors far brighter than they were during the Middle Ages, and thus we can be sure that the painted walls look nothing like they would have before the advent of electricity.  Furthermore, the exact chemical components of the medieval pigments remain unknown. The original paint is thought to have flaked off within a few generations and not been replaced, so for most of the building’s eight-century history it has not been experienced with painted surfaces. The emerging color scheme now allows a direct, and deeply disheartening, before-and-after comparison...

Observant Catholics, whose primary interest in the cathedral is religious rather than aesthetic, have been particularly appalled by one aspect of the program: the repainting of Our Lady of the Pillar, the early-seventeenth-century devotional statue of the Virgin Mary and the Christ Child familiarly known as the Black Madonna. As Jean Markale argues in Cathedral of the Black Madonna: The Druids and the Mysteries of Chartres (1988)—an intriguing study of the links between the Christian sanctuary and the Druidic shrine it superseded—there was a direct precedent for Our Lady of the Pillar in the Celtic black mother goddess Sulevia, another case of early Christianity co-opting indigenous beliefs to attract pagans. Whenever and however Chartres’s Black Madonna acquired its mysterious patina—through oxidation or smoke from candles and incense—it was familiar as such to centuries of the faithful until its recent multicolored makeover, which has transformed the Mother of God into a simpering kewpie doll.  
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There are pictures at the link but they're profoundly depressing.  
Link Posted: 12/19/2014 1:01:29 PM EDT
[#20]
Doubtless she gave birth to Jesus, and was selected as blessed among women to bear the Son of God and to be honored throughout generations.  This much is clearly written.

What I find trouble understanding from scripture are things like this:

How is it however that she is the "Queen" of heaven? Mary Regina, a ruler of heaven?


How is it she is a "co-redemptrix"?


How is it that she is not subject to the curse of sin in all mankind in need of liberation by the savior?  Particularly when she says "and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior".  Who needs a savior when they have no punishment in store?

I think a good many people spend too much time reducing the role of Mary and ignoring the honor due her, but others spend a lot of time putting her on a pedestal even making her coequal with Jesus.  

I'm really not comfortable with either extreme with my understanding of scripture.

With that I conclude as I have no interest on debate of the subject, and merely seek to provide my response to the question asked

Peace.

Link Posted: 12/19/2014 1:18:51 PM EDT
[#21]
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Without their strawman, they are forced to actually discuss things like grown adults - respectfully.  Can't have that.  Instead, you have to take a woman that God chose among all others, to whoe Gabriel said "blessed art though among women," and dismiss her as "just some woman." Oh no, Gabriel was "worshipping" Mary!!!!! OMG!!!!
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yes, I can agree that she is the mother of Jesus, what I can't agree with is worshipping her,  she was a normal woman with no special feets or deeds done on her own.  In fact, I can only think of one reference to her after Jesus was born,  anyone know which reference I am referring too?


Who worships her?

Never understood the fear people have of Mary. Everybody's supposed to consider her blessed after all.


Without their strawman, they are forced to actually discuss things like grown adults - respectfully.  Can't have that.  Instead, you have to take a woman that God chose among all others, to whoe Gabriel said "blessed art though among women," and dismiss her as "just some woman." Oh no, Gabriel was "worshipping" Mary!!!!! OMG!!!!

I'm all for a respectful discussion. I'm waiting on a waiver though.
Link Posted: 12/19/2014 1:24:29 PM EDT
[#22]
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Doubtless she gave birth to Jesus, and was selected as blessed among women to bear the Son of God and to be honored throughout generations.  This much is clearly written.

What I find trouble understanding from scripture are things like this:

How is it however that she is the "Queen" of heaven? Mary Regina, a ruler of heaven?
http://www.catholic-convert.com/wp-content/uploads/Queen-of-Heaven.jpg

How is it she is a "co-redemptrix"?
http://www.interfaithmary.net/images/book/Vichy,crucifixion.jpg

How is it that she is not subject to the curse of sin in all mankind in need of liberation by the savior?  Particularly when she says "and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior".  Who needs a savior when they have no punishment in store?

I think a good many people spend too much time reducing the role of Mary and ignoring the honor due her, but others spend a lot of time putting her on a pedestal even making her coequal with Jesus.  

I'm really not comfortable with either extreme with my understanding of scripture.

With that I conclude as I have no interest on debate of the subject, and merely seek to provide my response to the question asked

Peace.

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Agreed!

Rom. 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom. 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Link Posted: 12/19/2014 1:33:52 PM EDT
[#23]
1) Queen of Heaven (Regina simply means "queen") goes way back, but the teaching was codified not too long ago, with a very well-written decree, here: http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_11101954_ad-caeli-reginam.html

2) "Co-redemptrix" is not official Church doctrine, but it has also never bveen viewed (that I am aware of) as heresy.  It is an age-old theological concept pretty well summed up above in paris-dakar's post, combined with the simple observation that the Salvation of mankind could not have occured without her doing her part. These discussions have gone on for nearly 2 millenia now.

3) Your other bit seems to be a challenge to the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. The idea that God is Mary's Savior would not rule that out, as she was arguably the "first saved," so that through her the rest of Mankind could be (yes, worded intentionally to tie back in to number 2).  The fact she spoke of being saved BEFORE the resurrection in no way ruled out that the Salvation hadn't already occurred (and arguably suggests the opposite - that it clearly already had). The Immaculate Conception, like Queen of heaven moniker, is probab;y best debated/discussed by starting with doctrine: http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ineff.htm

As for putting her on a pedestal?  Take that up with God, He seemed to think she was pretty special. Christians ever since have simply followed that lead.
Link Posted: 12/19/2014 1:45:16 PM EDT
[#24]
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1) Queen of Heaven (Regina simply means "queen") goes way back, but the teaching was codified not too long ago, with a very well-written decree, here: http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_11101954_ad-caeli-reginam.html

2) "Co-redemptrix" is not official Church doctrine, but it has also never bveen viewed (that I am aware of) as heresy.  It is an age-old theological concept pretty well summed up above in paris-dakar's post, combined with the simple observation that the Salvation of mankind could not have occured without her doing her part. These discussions have gone on for nearly 2 millenia now.

3) Your other bit seems to be a challenge to the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. The idea that God is Mary's Savior would not rule that out, as she was arguably the "first saved," so that through her the rest of Mankind could be (yes, worded intentionally to tie back in to number 2).  The fact she spoke of being saved BEFORE the resurrection in no way ruled out that the Salvation hadn't already occurred (and arguably suggests the opposite - that it clearly already had). The Immaculate Conception, like Queen of heaven moniker, is probab;y best debated/discussed by starting with doctrine: http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ineff.htm

As for putting her on a pedestal?  Take that up with God, He seemed to think she was pretty special. Christians ever since have simply followed that lead.
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Can you point where "Queen of Heaven" is used in the bible?
Link Posted: 12/19/2014 1:47:05 PM EDT
[#25]
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Can you point where "Queen of Heaven" is used in the bible?
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1) Queen of Heaven (Regina simply means "queen") goes way back, but the teaching was codified not too long ago, with a very well-written decree, here: http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_11101954_ad-caeli-reginam.html

2) "Co-redemptrix" is not official Church doctrine, but it has also never bveen viewed (that I am aware of) as heresy.  It is an age-old theological concept pretty well summed up above in paris-dakar's post, combined with the simple observation that the Salvation of mankind could not have occured without her doing her part. These discussions have gone on for nearly 2 millenia now.

3) Your other bit seems to be a challenge to the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. The idea that God is Mary's Savior would not rule that out, as she was arguably the "first saved," so that through her the rest of Mankind could be (yes, worded intentionally to tie back in to number 2).  The fact she spoke of being saved BEFORE the resurrection in no way ruled out that the Salvation hadn't already occurred (and arguably suggests the opposite - that it clearly already had). The Immaculate Conception, like Queen of heaven moniker, is probab;y best debated/discussed by starting with doctrine: http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ineff.htm

As for putting her on a pedestal?  Take that up with God, He seemed to think she was pretty special. Christians ever since have simply followed that lead.

Can you point where "Queen of Heaven" is used in the bible?


And see, this is what I mean about some people not realy wanting to have a serious discussion.
Link Posted: 12/19/2014 1:52:33 PM EDT
[#26]
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Can you point where "Queen of Heaven" is used in the bible?
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Must everything be a sola scriptura thread, ignoring Paul's own words about tradition and such? You also certainly didn't have enough time to read and process the document regarding such things that Bohr linked.
Link Posted: 12/19/2014 1:55:45 PM EDT
[#27]
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This thread seems an appropriate place to post this sad news:  A Scandalous Makeover at Chartres
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The major problem here is with who owns such buildings in France.

Thanks to the revolution and whatnot.
Link Posted: 12/19/2014 1:58:20 PM EDT
[#28]
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And see, this is what I mean about some people not realy wanting to have a serious discussion.
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1) Queen of Heaven (Regina simply means "queen") goes way back, but the teaching was codified not too long ago, with a very well-written decree, here: http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_11101954_ad-caeli-reginam.html

2) "Co-redemptrix" is not official Church doctrine, but it has also never bveen viewed (that I am aware of) as heresy.  It is an age-old theological concept pretty well summed up above in paris-dakar's post, combined with the simple observation that the Salvation of mankind could not have occured without her doing her part. These discussions have gone on for nearly 2 millenia now.

3) Your other bit seems to be a challenge to the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. The idea that God is Mary's Savior would not rule that out, as she was arguably the "first saved," so that through her the rest of Mankind could be (yes, worded intentionally to tie back in to number 2).  The fact she spoke of being saved BEFORE the resurrection in no way ruled out that the Salvation hadn't already occurred (and arguably suggests the opposite - that it clearly already had). The Immaculate Conception, like Queen of heaven moniker, is probab;y best debated/discussed by starting with doctrine: http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ineff.htm

As for putting her on a pedestal?  Take that up with God, He seemed to think she was pretty special. Christians ever since have simply followed that lead.

Can you point where "Queen of Heaven" is used in the bible?


And see, this is what I mean about some people not realy wanting to have a serious discussion.

What's wrong with the question I asked?
Link Posted: 12/19/2014 1:58:29 PM EDT
[#29]
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Must everything be a sola scriptura thread, ignoring Paul's own words about tradition and such? You also certainly didn't have enough time to read and process the document regarding such things that Bohr linked.
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Can you point where "Queen of Heaven" is used in the bible?


Must everything be a sola scriptura thread, ignoring Paul's own words about tradition and such? You also certainly didn't have enough time to read and process the document regarding such things that Bohr linked.


Such posts serve a role, lest others claim our claims of incessant Strawmen are not supportable.

As no claim that the term "Queen of Heaven" being taken from the Bible has ever been made, the disengenous nature of his post is clear to all, regardless of their own theological perspective.
Link Posted: 12/19/2014 2:00:51 PM EDT
[#30]
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What's wrong with the question I asked?
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1) Queen of Heaven (Regina simply means "queen") goes way back, but the teaching was codified not too long ago, with a very well-written decree, here: http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_11101954_ad-caeli-reginam.html

2) "Co-redemptrix" is not official Church doctrine, but it has also never bveen viewed (that I am aware of) as heresy.  It is an age-old theological concept pretty well summed up above in paris-dakar's post, combined with the simple observation that the Salvation of mankind could not have occured without her doing her part. These discussions have gone on for nearly 2 millenia now.

3) Your other bit seems to be a challenge to the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. The idea that God is Mary's Savior would not rule that out, as she was arguably the "first saved," so that through her the rest of Mankind could be (yes, worded intentionally to tie back in to number 2).  The fact she spoke of being saved BEFORE the resurrection in no way ruled out that the Salvation hadn't already occurred (and arguably suggests the opposite - that it clearly already had). The Immaculate Conception, like Queen of heaven moniker, is probab;y best debated/discussed by starting with doctrine: http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ineff.htm

As for putting her on a pedestal?  Take that up with God, He seemed to think she was pretty special. Christians ever since have simply followed that lead.

Can you point where "Queen of Heaven" is used in the bible?


And see, this is what I mean about some people not realy wanting to have a serious discussion.

What's wrong with the question I asked?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

I provided you the definitive reference on the doctrine of Mary as Queen of Heaven.  NOTHING in it suggests the term comes from the Bible.  And yet, there you are, demanding I show you where in the Bible we get the term.
Link Posted: 12/19/2014 2:01:00 PM EDT
[#31]
Just as I suspected from the usual catholic suspects. Y'all don't want a discussion.

I'm out
Link Posted: 12/19/2014 2:01:28 PM EDT
[#32]
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Can you point where "Queen of Heaven" is used in the bible?
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1) Queen of Heaven (Regina simply means "queen") goes way back, but the teaching was codified not too long ago, with a very well-written decree, here: http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_11101954_ad-caeli-reginam.html

2) "Co-redemptrix" is not official Church doctrine, but it has also never bveen viewed (that I am aware of) as heresy.  It is an age-old theological concept pretty well summed up above in paris-dakar's post, combined with the simple observation that the Salvation of mankind could not have occured without her doing her part. These discussions have gone on for nearly 2 millenia now.

3) Your other bit seems to be a challenge to the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. The idea that God is Mary's Savior would not rule that out, as she was arguably the "first saved," so that through her the rest of Mankind could be (yes, worded intentionally to tie back in to number 2).  The fact she spoke of being saved BEFORE the resurrection in no way ruled out that the Salvation hadn't already occurred (and arguably suggests the opposite - that it clearly already had). The Immaculate Conception, like Queen of heaven moniker, is probab;y best debated/discussed by starting with doctrine: http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ineff.htm

As for putting her on a pedestal?  Take that up with God, He seemed to think she was pretty special. Christians ever since have simply followed that lead.

Can you point where "Queen of Heaven" is used in the bible?


Jer. 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
Jer. 7:19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?
Jer. 7:20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.
Link Posted: 12/19/2014 2:02:46 PM EDT
[#33]
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Just as I suspected from the usual catholic suspects. Y'all don't want a discussion.

I'm out
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lol
Link Posted: 12/19/2014 2:10:11 PM EDT
[#34]
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

I provided you the definitive reference on the doctrine of Mary as Queen of Heaven.  NOTHING in it suggests the term comes from the Bible.  And yet, there you are, demanding I show you where in the Bible we get the term.
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1) Queen of Heaven (Regina simply means "queen") goes way back, but the teaching was codified not too long ago, with a very well-written decree, here: http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_11101954_ad-caeli-reginam.html

2) "Co-redemptrix" is not official Church doctrine, but it has also never bveen viewed (that I am aware of) as heresy.  It is an age-old theological concept pretty well summed up above in paris-dakar's post, combined with the simple observation that the Salvation of mankind could not have occured without her doing her part. These discussions have gone on for nearly 2 millenia now.

3) Your other bit seems to be a challenge to the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. The idea that God is Mary's Savior would not rule that out, as she was arguably the "first saved," so that through her the rest of Mankind could be (yes, worded intentionally to tie back in to number 2).  The fact she spoke of being saved BEFORE the resurrection in no way ruled out that the Salvation hadn't already occurred (and arguably suggests the opposite - that it clearly already had). The Immaculate Conception, like Queen of heaven moniker, is probab;y best debated/discussed by starting with doctrine: http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ineff.htm

As for putting her on a pedestal?  Take that up with God, He seemed to think she was pretty special. Christians ever since have simply followed that lead.

Can you point where "Queen of Heaven" is used in the bible?


And see, this is what I mean about some people not realy wanting to have a serious discussion.

What's wrong with the question I asked?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

I provided you the definitive reference on the doctrine of Mary as Queen of Heaven.  NOTHING in it suggests the term comes from the Bible.  And yet, there you are, demanding I show you where in the Bible we get the term.

1. I didn't demand anything, I asked a question.
2. Why would it be okay to refer to Mary as "Queen of Heaven" when that term was used to describe a pagan goddess in Jeremiah? It doesn't make sense.
Link Posted: 12/19/2014 2:20:55 PM EDT
[#35]
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1. I didn't demand anything, I asked a question.
2. Why would it be okay to refer to Mary as "Queen of Heaven" when that term was used to describe a pagan goddess in Jeremiah? It doesn't make sense.
View Quote


1. Because we're obviously walking the sola scriptura path, which is silly and not germaine.

2. Why not? Just because a word is used to describe one thing does not mean it can't be used to describe another. Did you read the document Bohr linked? After all, many nearby areas to Israel had Kings that they also considered God. Shall we not call Jesus a King because they used the term badly?

There's also a simple logical explanation for Mary's title.

Is Jesus a King? Is Jesus the King of Heaven? (go sing Hark the Herald Angels Sing). Yes?

Well, the Bible is of course very picky about lineage. Right there in the Gospel and elsewhere. Very picky about it.

Jesus is a King, of both heaven and earth. What is the standard title of one who gives birth to a King?
Link Posted: 12/19/2014 2:29:20 PM EDT
[#36]
"As for you, do not pray for these people. Do not offer a cry or a prayer on their behalf, and do not beg Me, for I will not listen to you. Don't you see how they behave in the cites (or in their places of worship) of Judah (or in the house of Judah) and in the streets of Jerusalem (or in the place where God's Name dwells)?

Their sons gather wood, the fathers (or their religious leaders) light the fire, and women knead dough to make cakes (or bake offering cakes) for the queen of heaven (or a pagan goddess), and they pour out drink offerings to other gods (or to other gods that they display for open worship) so that they provoke Me to anger."

This is the LORD's Declaration: "Isn't it they themselves being provoked to disgrace?"

The Old Testament Book of the Prophet JEREMIAH
Jeremiah 7: 16-19
Do Not Pray For Judah: Queen Of Heaven
Link Posted: 12/19/2014 2:35:24 PM EDT
[#37]
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1. Because we're obviously walking the sola scriptura path, which is silly and not germaine.

2. Why not? Just because a word is used to describe one thing does not mean it can't be used to describe another. Did you read the document Bohr linked? After all, many nearby areas to Israel had Kings that they also considered God. Shall we not call Jesus a King because they used the term badly?

There's also a simple logical explanation for Mary's title.

Is Jesus a King? Is Jesus the King of Heaven?
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Quoted:
1. I didn't demand anything, I asked a question.
2. Why would it be okay to refer to Mary as "Queen of Heaven" when that term was used to describe a pagan goddess in Jeremiah? It doesn't make sense.


1. Because we're obviously walking the sola scriptura path, which is silly and not germaine.

2. Why not? Just because a word is used to describe one thing does not mean it can't be used to describe another. Did you read the document Bohr linked? After all, many nearby areas to Israel had Kings that they also considered God. Shall we not call Jesus a King because they used the term badly?

There's also a simple logical explanation for Mary's title.

Is Jesus a King? Is Jesus the King of Heaven?

Jesus is the KING of Kings.

Certainly there were bad kings and there were good kings. The term 'king' was used as an earthly title. 'King of Heaven' and 'King of Kings' was used to describe Jesus and no one else, ever. 'Queen of Heaven' was only used to describe the pagan goddess and no one else, ever (in the bible).

Sola scriptura (scripture only) has nothing to do with this particular subject.
Link Posted: 12/19/2014 2:42:31 PM EDT
[#38]

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Yeah, the hidden premise behind the anti-Mary vitriol is a tacit rejection of Christ's humanity.



In that sense there's something somewhat Gnostic to it, if not a complete and explicit rejection of Christ's humanity, at least the suggestion that His humanity was incidental to the salvific nature of His sacrifice.  Which of course makes no sense since it was His humanity which suffered on the cross, His blood shed and His side pierced.
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yes, I can agree that she is the mother of Jesus, what I can't agree with is worshipping her,  she was a normal woman with no special feets or deeds done on her own.  In fact, I can only think of one reference to her after Jesus was born,  anyone know which reference I am referring too?




Who worships her?



Never understood the fear people have of Mary. Everybody's supposed to consider her blessed after all.




Yeah, the hidden premise behind the anti-Mary vitriol is a tacit rejection of Christ's humanity.



In that sense there's something somewhat Gnostic to it, if not a complete and explicit rejection of Christ's humanity, at least the suggestion that His humanity was incidental to the salvific nature of His sacrifice.  Which of course makes no sense since it was His humanity which suffered on the cross, His blood shed and His side pierced.
Correct. Its a mish-mosh of manichaenism, docetism and other dualist heresies. Although ancient philosophies, they certainly had their rebirth in the 'total depravity' crowd during the reformation.



I've been listening to some CDs reviewing John Paul II's theology of the body audiences (The Gift - Christopher West, highly recommended). It became abundantly and rapidly clear that the humanity of Jesus is integral to our understanding of salvation.
 
Link Posted: 12/19/2014 2:46:00 PM EDT
[#39]
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Quoted:


1. Because we're obviously walking the sola scriptura path, which is silly and not germaine.

2. Why not? Just because a word is used to describe one thing does not mean it can't be used to describe another. Did you read the document Bohr linked? After all, many nearby areas to Israel had Kings that they also considered God. Shall we not call Jesus a King because they used the term badly?

There's also a simple logical explanation for Mary's title.

Is Jesus a King? Is Jesus the King of Heaven? (go sing Hark the Herald Angels Sing). Yes?

Well, the Bible is of course very picky about lineage. Right there in the Gospel and elsewhere. Very picky about it.

Jesus is a King, of both heaven and earth. What is the standard title of one who gives birth to a King?
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Quoted:
Quoted:
1. I didn't demand anything, I asked a question.
2. Why would it be okay to refer to Mary as "Queen of Heaven" when that term was used to describe a pagan goddess in Jeremiah? It doesn't make sense.


1. Because we're obviously walking the sola scriptura path, which is silly and not germaine.

2. Why not? Just because a word is used to describe one thing does not mean it can't be used to describe another. Did you read the document Bohr linked? After all, many nearby areas to Israel had Kings that they also considered God. Shall we not call Jesus a King because they used the term badly?

There's also a simple logical explanation for Mary's title.

Is Jesus a King? Is Jesus the King of Heaven? (go sing Hark the Herald Angels Sing). Yes?

Well, the Bible is of course very picky about lineage. Right there in the Gospel and elsewhere. Very picky about it.

Jesus is a King, of both heaven and earth. What is the standard title of one who gives birth to a King?

A queen will give birth to a future king, yes. But, Jesus was the King of Kings since the beginning, way before Mary even existed. So you're saying that since Jesus has always been King of Kings that Mary was made a queen because she gave birth to his earthly body?  
A king will hand down his kingship, it does not come from the queen. The kingship always followed the kings blood line, not the queens.
Link Posted: 12/19/2014 2:48:49 PM EDT
[#40]
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Correct. Its a mish-mosh of manichaenism, docetism and other dualist heresies. Although ancient philosophies, they certainly had their rebirth in the 'total depravity' crowd during the reformation.

I've been listening to some CDs reviewing John Paul II's theology of the body audiences (The Gift - Christopher West, highly recommended). It became abundantly and rapidly clear that the humanity of Jesus is integral to our understanding of salvation.


 
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yes, I can agree that she is the mother of Jesus, what I can't agree with is worshipping her,  she was a normal woman with no special feets or deeds done on her own.  In fact, I can only think of one reference to her after Jesus was born,  anyone know which reference I am referring too?


Who worships her?

Never understood the fear people have of Mary. Everybody's supposed to consider her blessed after all.


Yeah, the hidden premise behind the anti-Mary vitriol is a tacit rejection of Christ's humanity.

In that sense there's something somewhat Gnostic to it, if not a complete and explicit rejection of Christ's humanity, at least the suggestion that His humanity was incidental to the salvific nature of His sacrifice.  Which of course makes no sense since it was His humanity which suffered on the cross, His blood shed and His side pierced.
Correct. Its a mish-mosh of manichaenism, docetism and other dualist heresies. Although ancient philosophies, they certainly had their rebirth in the 'total depravity' crowd during the reformation.

I've been listening to some CDs reviewing John Paul II's theology of the body audiences (The Gift - Christopher West, highly recommended). It became abundantly and rapidly clear that the humanity of Jesus is integral to our understanding of salvation.


 

I haven't seen anyone deny that Christ was 100% man and 100% God at the same time.
Link Posted: 12/19/2014 2:52:14 PM EDT
[#41]
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Jesus is the KING of Kings.

Certainly there were bad kings and there were good kings. The term 'king' was used as an earthly title. 'King of Heaven' and 'King of Kings' was used to describe Jesus and no one else, ever. 'Queen of Heaven' was only used to describe the pagan goddess and no one else, ever (in the bible).

Sola scriptura (scripture only) has nothing to do with this particular subject.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
1. I didn't demand anything, I asked a question.
2. Why would it be okay to refer to Mary as "Queen of Heaven" when that term was used to describe a pagan goddess in Jeremiah? It doesn't make sense.


1. Because we're obviously walking the sola scriptura path, which is silly and not germaine.

2. Why not? Just because a word is used to describe one thing does not mean it can't be used to describe another. Did you read the document Bohr linked? After all, many nearby areas to Israel had Kings that they also considered God. Shall we not call Jesus a King because they used the term badly?

There's also a simple logical explanation for Mary's title.

Is Jesus a King? Is Jesus the King of Heaven?

Jesus is the KING of Kings.

Certainly there were bad kings and there were good kings. The term 'king' was used as an earthly title. 'King of Heaven' and 'King of Kings' was used to describe Jesus and no one else, ever. 'Queen of Heaven' was only used to describe the pagan goddess and no one else, ever (in the bible).

Sola scriptura (scripture only) has nothing to do with this particular subject.


Other, that is, than being the basis of your argument?

Further, there were Pagan religions with "saviors" and "gods" and "altars" and what not as well.  The above argument that a term used by Pagans is therefore unable to be used by Christians is not consistent.
Link Posted: 12/19/2014 2:59:50 PM EDT
[#42]
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Other, that is, than being the basis of your argument?

Further, there were Pagan religions with "saviors" and "gods" and "altars" and what not as well.  The above argument that a term used by Pagans is therefore unable to be used by Christians is not consistent.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
1. I didn't demand anything, I asked a question.
2. Why would it be okay to refer to Mary as "Queen of Heaven" when that term was used to describe a pagan goddess in Jeremiah? It doesn't make sense.


1. Because we're obviously walking the sola scriptura path, which is silly and not germaine.

2. Why not? Just because a word is used to describe one thing does not mean it can't be used to describe another. Did you read the document Bohr linked? After all, many nearby areas to Israel had Kings that they also considered God. Shall we not call Jesus a King because they used the term badly?

There's also a simple logical explanation for Mary's title.

Is Jesus a King? Is Jesus the King of Heaven?

Jesus is the KING of Kings.

Certainly there were bad kings and there were good kings. The term 'king' was used as an earthly title. 'King of Heaven' and 'King of Kings' was used to describe Jesus and no one else, ever. 'Queen of Heaven' was only used to describe the pagan goddess and no one else, ever (in the bible).

Sola scriptura (scripture only) has nothing to do with this particular subject.


Other, that is, than being the basis of your argument?

Further, there were Pagan religions with "saviors" and "gods" and "altars" and what not as well.  The above argument that a term used by Pagans is therefore unable to be used by Christians is not consistent.



What term, "Sola scriptura?"
Link Posted: 12/19/2014 3:13:53 PM EDT
[#43]
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A queen will give birth to a future king, yes. But, Jesus was the King of Kings since the beginning, way before Mary even existed. So you're saying that since Jesus has always been King of Kings that Mary was made a queen because she gave birth to his earthly body?  
A king will hand down his kingship, it does not come from the queen. The kingship always followed the kings blood line, not the queens.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
1. I didn't demand anything, I asked a question.
2. Why would it be okay to refer to Mary as "Queen of Heaven" when that term was used to describe a pagan goddess in Jeremiah? It doesn't make sense.


1. Because we're obviously walking the sola scriptura path, which is silly and not germaine.

2. Why not? Just because a word is used to describe one thing does not mean it can't be used to describe another. Did you read the document Bohr linked? After all, many nearby areas to Israel had Kings that they also considered God. Shall we not call Jesus a King because they used the term badly?

There's also a simple logical explanation for Mary's title.

Is Jesus a King? Is Jesus the King of Heaven? (go sing Hark the Herald Angels Sing). Yes?

Well, the Bible is of course very picky about lineage. Right there in the Gospel and elsewhere. Very picky about it.

Jesus is a King, of both heaven and earth. What is the standard title of one who gives birth to a King?


A queen will give birth to a future king, yes. But, Jesus was the King of Kings since the beginning, way before Mary even existed. So you're saying that since Jesus has always been King of Kings that Mary was made a queen because she gave birth to his earthly body?  
A king will hand down his kingship, it does not come from the queen. The kingship always followed the kings blood line, not the queens.


All of that is correct.

Of course, the Kingship doesn't come from the Queen (hence why the Genealogy of Christ comes from David down to his adopted father Joseph), but as you said, a queen will give birth to a King. So you agree with me there. Mary has to be a queen. And since you can't divorce Jesus earthly kingship from his heavenly one (as they both exist at all times at the same time)...

On your part about Jesus always being King of Kings way before Mary even existed, that is correct. Somewhat.

Jesus has always been King of Kings, because Jesus is God. But while Mary "may not have existed" at the time of creation God knew she would exist before she was formed in Anne's womb(since he kinda knows everything). You seem to want to constrain Earthly (this universe) chronological order to a God that is not at all constrained by such things. The chronological timeline is immaterial.
Link Posted: 12/19/2014 3:17:23 PM EDT
[#44]
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Quoted:


Other, that is, than being the basis of your argument?

Further, there were Pagan religions with "saviors" and "gods" and "altars" and what not as well.  The above argument that a term used by Pagans is therefore unable to be used by Christians is not consistent.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
1. I didn't demand anything, I asked a question.
2. Why would it be okay to refer to Mary as "Queen of Heaven" when that term was used to describe a pagan goddess in Jeremiah? It doesn't make sense.


1. Because we're obviously walking the sola scriptura path, which is silly and not germaine.

2. Why not? Just because a word is used to describe one thing does not mean it can't be used to describe another. Did you read the document Bohr linked? After all, many nearby areas to Israel had Kings that they also considered God. Shall we not call Jesus a King because they used the term badly?

There's also a simple logical explanation for Mary's title.

Is Jesus a King? Is Jesus the King of Heaven?

Jesus is the KING of Kings.

Certainly there were bad kings and there were good kings. The term 'king' was used as an earthly title. 'King of Heaven' and 'King of Kings' was used to describe Jesus and no one else, ever. 'Queen of Heaven' was only used to describe the pagan goddess and no one else, ever (in the bible).

Sola scriptura (scripture only) has nothing to do with this particular subject.


Other, that is, than being the basis of your argument?

Further, there were Pagan religions with "saviors" and "gods" and "altars" and what not as well.  The above argument that a term used by Pagans is therefore unable to be used by Christians is not consistent.

Those words in quotations are all generic words that can have many different meanings. "Queen of Heaven" only has one meaning. Notice that it is capatalized in Jeremiah which means its a formal name or title.

The phrase “the queen of heaven” appears in the Bible twice, both times in the book of Jeremiah. The first incident is in connection with the things the Israelites were doing that provoked the Lord to anger. Entire families were involved in idolatry. The children gathered wood, and the men used it to build altars to worship false gods. The women were engaged in kneading dough and baking cakes of bread for the “Queen of Heaven” (Jeremiah 7:18). This title referred to Ishtar, an Assyrian and Babylonian goddess also called Ashtoreth and Astarte by various other groups. She was thought to be the wife of the false god Baal, also known as Molech. The motivation of women to worship Ashtoreth stemmed from her reputation as a fertility goddess, and, as the bearing of children was greatly desired among women of that era, worship of this “queen of heaven” was rampant among pagan civilizations. Sadly, it became popular among the Israelites as well.

Link Posted: 12/19/2014 3:25:51 PM EDT
[#45]
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Can you point where "Queen of Heaven" is used in the bible?
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This concept comes from Revelation 12.

If you disagree with the interpretation that the woman in that passage is Mary, that's fine. However, I don't see how you can argue that your interpretation is more authoritative than someone else's.


Link Posted: 12/19/2014 3:33:16 PM EDT
[#46]
Is there anywhere in Catholic church tradition which clearly states or clarifies that, "God the Father," of all creation made intentions, mentioned, or made solemn declaration through a prophet or any other that Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ, as Jesus Christ being Eternal One with Father, would enter into a state of Holy Matrimony with her at any time?
If so, is this why Joseph, the earthly husband of Mary, the earthly mother of Jesus Christ the Messiah, is not mentioned in Bible Scripture after Jesus was around twelve years of age?

That being, if Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ legally by God's own law could be entitled to the title here of: "Queen of Heaven?"
Jesus said, "I and My Father are One."

The Bible states that Joseph was a, "righteous man," does it not?
Why did God deem, "Joseph," righteous?
Link Posted: 12/19/2014 3:45:16 PM EDT
[#47]
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All of that is correct.

Of course, the Kingship doesn't come from the Queen (hence why the Genealogy of Christ comes from David down to his adopted father Joseph), but as you said, a queen will give birth to a King. So you agree with me there. Mary has to be a queen. And since you can't divorce Jesus earthly kingship from his heavenly one (as they both exist at all times at the same time)...

On your part about Jesus always being King of Kings way before Mary even existed, that is correct. Somewhat.

Jesus has always been King of Kings, because Jesus is God. But while Mary "may not have existed" at the time of creation God knew she would exist before she was formed in Anne's womb(since he kinda knows everything). You seem to want to constrain Earthly (this universe) chronological order to a God that is not at all constrained by such things. The chronological timeline is immaterial.
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1. I didn't demand anything, I asked a question.
2. Why would it be okay to refer to Mary as "Queen of Heaven" when that term was used to describe a pagan goddess in Jeremiah? It doesn't make sense.


1. Because we're obviously walking the sola scriptura path, which is silly and not germaine.

2. Why not? Just because a word is used to describe one thing does not mean it can't be used to describe another. Did you read the document Bohr linked? After all, many nearby areas to Israel had Kings that they also considered God. Shall we not call Jesus a King because they used the term badly?

There's also a simple logical explanation for Mary's title.

Is Jesus a King? Is Jesus the King of Heaven? (go sing Hark the Herald Angels Sing). Yes?

Well, the Bible is of course very picky about lineage. Right there in the Gospel and elsewhere. Very picky about it.

Jesus is a King, of both heaven and earth. What is the standard title of one who gives birth to a King?


A queen will give birth to a future king, yes. But, Jesus was the King of Kings since the beginning, way before Mary even existed. So you're saying that since Jesus has always been King of Kings that Mary was made a queen because she gave birth to his earthly body?  
A king will hand down his kingship, it does not come from the queen. The kingship always followed the kings blood line, not the queens.


All of that is correct.

Of course, the Kingship doesn't come from the Queen (hence why the Genealogy of Christ comes from David down to his adopted father Joseph), but as you said, a queen will give birth to a King. So you agree with me there. Mary has to be a queen. And since you can't divorce Jesus earthly kingship from his heavenly one (as they both exist at all times at the same time)...

On your part about Jesus always being King of Kings way before Mary even existed, that is correct. Somewhat.

Jesus has always been King of Kings, because Jesus is God. But while Mary "may not have existed" at the time of creation God knew she would exist before she was formed in Anne's womb(since he kinda knows everything). You seem to want to constrain Earthly (this universe) chronological order to a God that is not at all constrained by such things. The chronological timeline is immaterial.

Okay, so now by saying that since Jesus is King and Mary gave birth to him then Mary is a queen. But, a woman only becomes a queen when she marries a king. She can only give birth to a king if she is married to a king and that king impregnates her. There is no other way to become a queen except to marry a king. Does a daughter of a king (princess) automatically become a queen when her mother dies?  No, she does not become a queen until she is wed to a king.

We see throughout the whole bible where God is on His throne with Jesus at His side. Why was Mary never depicted in these discriptions as being the queen? Why wasn't she described as being on the throne with the King? That would be a very big deal to have the complete picture of royalty, would it not?

Rev. 3:21
"...just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on His throne."
Why didn't he say Mother and Father?  He never does. Anytime Jesus speaks of heaven he only talks about his Father in heaven, he never says anything about a mother or queen.

Link Posted: 12/19/2014 3:48:54 PM EDT
[#48]
This is the law of nature and God unless you are an ant or other such insect.
Link Posted: 12/19/2014 3:51:15 PM EDT
[#49]
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This concept comes from Revelation 12.

If you disagree with the interpretation that the woman in that passage is Mary, that's fine. However, I don't see how you can argue that your interpretation is more authoritative than someone else's.


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Can you point where "Queen of Heaven" is used in the bible?


This concept comes from Revelation 12.

If you disagree with the interpretation that the woman in that passage is Mary, that's fine. However, I don't see how you can argue that your interpretation is more authoritative than someone else's.



Okay, can you tell me what "clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of 12 stars on her head. " means?

What do these things have to do with Mary?
Link Posted: 12/19/2014 3:54:04 PM EDT
[#50]
:) A metaphorical example of a Jewish woman....
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