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Posted: 3/15/2014 4:08:29 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
So what i'm getting at is the technology worth it VS standard manifold injected engines? That's kind of a moot point. Just like when EFI replaced the carb DI will replace port injection and ALL cars will have these systems. Cost will go up, as will economy. The consumer and manufacturers will cash out these economy and efficiency gains out as MORE power @ the same economy as before and cars will do absolutely nothing they didn't do before except be even faster and more expensive. |
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Posted: 3/15/2014 7:03:36 PM EDT
[#2]
I will add this is really about the 2015 Subaru WRX VS WRX STI.
WRX should get 29-30 MPG highway VS 23 on the STI due top last years motor being reused. 
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Posted: 3/15/2014 8:15:02 PM EDT
[#3]
A member here is a mechanic and he's posted about having to routinely take apart Lexus engines to clean some nasty ass carbon deposits. It may be the "new way", but I am thankful that both of my vehicles are NOT DI, and I use Techron on a regular basis, and can feel it work. But on the other hand, there are plenty of Porsche owners that have no issues with it.
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Posted: 3/15/2014 9:03:17 PM EDT
[#4]
It's simple - If you're buying a used car with more than 70,000miles on the clock, avoid it if it's GDi/DI - Becuase I guarantee the past owner hasn't had anything serviced with respect to the fuel system, if you're buying it new it'll be fine providing the fuel in your area isn't garbage.
Personally if I was buying a new GDi vehicle I'd be installing an additional quality filter somewhere in the system before running up the Mileage. |
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Posted: 3/15/2014 9:11:53 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A member here is a mechanic and he's posted about having to routinely take apart Lexus engines to clean some nasty ass carbon deposits. It may be the "new way", but I am thankful that both of my vehicles are NOT DI, and I use Techron on a regular basis, and can feel it work. But on the other hand, there are plenty of Porsche owners that have no issues with it. |
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Posted: 3/15/2014 9:44:53 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's simple - If you're buying a used car with more than 70,000miles on the clock, avoid it if it's GDi/DI - Becuase I guarantee the past owner hasn't had anything serviced with respect to the fuel system, if you're buying it new it'll be fine providing the fuel in your area isn't garbage. Personally if I was buying a new GDi vehicle I'd be installing an additional quality filter somewhere in the system before running up the Mileage. No not buying used 2015 WRX/STI isnt even at the dealers yet. And people are already buying them before they arrive.  
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Posted: 3/15/2014 10:10:05 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's kind of a moot point. Just like when EFI replaced the carb DI will replace port injection and ALL cars will have these systems. Cost will go up, as will economy. The consumer and manufacturers will cash out these economy and efficiency gains out as MORE power @ the same economy as before and cars will do absolutely nothing they didn't do before except be even faster and more expensive. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So what i'm getting at is the technology worth it VS standard manifold injected engines? That's kind of a moot point. Just like when EFI replaced the carb DI will replace port injection and ALL cars will have these systems. Cost will go up, as will economy. The consumer and manufacturers will cash out these economy and efficiency gains out as MORE power @ the same economy as before and cars will do absolutely nothing they didn't do before except be even faster and more expensive. DI has been around a long time in the diesel world. The only real issue is the lubricity of diesel vs gasoline. The results are shown in the HP vs the fuel economy. |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 5:24:13 AM EDT
[#8]
I own a 2007 335 that is one of the first widely produced gas engines to use direct injection so my experience is more related to BMW and DI:
The Bad: 1. BMW had a hard time creating a reliable HPFP for this vehicle, as of 3 or 4 years ago all is good and they have a 10y/120K mile warranty for all cars with this part 2. Fuel does not wash over the intake valves so you have to get your intake ports/valves cleaned every 30K-60K with special equipment ($300 locally for my engine) 3. Injectors are loud at idle, if someone didn't know about DI and gas engines they would swear your engine doesn't "sound right" at idle The Good: 1. Gas mileage and power: its amazing how much more efficient and powerful a DI setup is just by putting that injector spray directly in chamber(and compression ratio can be bumped up even though its boosted). My engine in stock form puts out 300 wheel torque from factory and gets over 30mpg on freeway and around 20 in city. That is amazing, 2. Fuel system capacity: after boosting inline or replacing your LPFP the rest of the DI fuel system can move an AMAZING amount of fuel from the factory. Guys pay big bucks to be able to move as much fuel as my car can from the factory. 3. Direct Injection and E85: You can't appreciate what this combo brings to the table until you experience it for yourself. The cooling effects in the chamber with DI in general mixed in with the cooling effects and octane of E85 in the chamber brings an amazing amount of tuning ability(I.E. safety) and power to the table. I've only spent about $1000 in mods and I went from 280whp/300wtq to 430whp/475wtq. Prices on things: HPFP $300 part but again is on a 10y/120K warranty so unless you're highly modding just take it into BMW, either way part is easy to replace. DI injectors $150 each and they need to be programmed into the car ($25 INPA cable and a laptop), being an inline engine again easy to replace |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 5:31:19 AM EDT
[#9]
The carbonized intake valve is a result of the crank case ventilation exhausting into a dry manifold. Install a blow by tube and catch can and eliminate entirely the problem for under $100
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Posted: 3/16/2014 9:40:48 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I own a 2007 335 that is one of the first widely produced gas engines to use direct injection so my experience is more related to BMW and DI: The Bad: 1. BMW had a hard time creating a reliable HPFP for this vehicle, as of 3 or 4 years ago all is good and they have a 10y/120K mile warranty for all cars with this part 2. Fuel does not wash over the intake valves so you have to get your intake ports/valves cleaned every 30K-60K with special equipment ($300 locally for my engine) 3. Injectors are loud at idle, if someone didn't know about DI and gas engines they would swear your engine doesn't "sound right" at idle The Good: 1. Gas mileage and power: its amazing how much more efficient and powerful a DI setup is just by putting that injector spray directly in chamber(and compression ratio can be bumped up even though its boosted). My engine in stock form puts out 300 wheel torque from factory and gets over 30mpg on freeway and around 20 in city. That is amazing, 2. Fuel system capacity: after boosting inline or replacing your LPFP the rest of the DI fuel system can move an AMAZING amount of fuel from the factory. Guys pay big bucks to be able to move as much fuel as my car can from the factory. 3. Direct Injection and E85: You can't appreciate what this combo brings to the table until you experience it for yourself. The cooling effects in the chamber with DI in general mixed in with the cooling effects and octane of E85 in the chamber brings an amazing amount of tuning ability(I.E. safety) and power to the table. I've only spent about $1000 in mods and I went from 280whp/300wtq to 430whp/475wtq. Prices on things: HPFP $300 part but again is on a 10y/120K warranty so unless you're highly modding just take it into BMW, either way part is easy to replace. DI injectors $150 each and they need to be programmed into the car ($25 INPA cable and a laptop), being an inline engine again easy to replace That's not bad at all considering it's BMW i would hope that subaru would be cheaper. Price seems to be about the same as normal manifolld cars injector. |
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Posted: 3/17/2014 2:41:08 PM EDT
[#11]
I thought those BMW injector pumps were like 2k. I know that was not a cheap repair when they first started having problems.
Anyway, the biggest issues these days are the carbon buildup, and fuel diluting the oil, but neither of those are really a big deal. Using proper oil and good gas will go a long way, and a catch can save a lot of headache. I think VW/Audi have actually started combining port injection and direct injection. They get the power advantage of direct injection under high load, but under low load they get the efficiency and clean valves from port injection.
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Posted: 3/17/2014 3:42:03 PM EDT
[#12]
VW tech here. on the newer (06 and up) 4 cylinder turbos with direct injection, we have to remove intakes and manually clean intake valves. I've seen them get NASTY at as low as 40,000 miles.
Before 
After 
So for me MPI it is. |
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Posted: 3/17/2014 4:16:36 PM EDT
[#13]
Mercedes has started using it. So far, the main issue is noise. The pumps and injectors are very noisy. For that matter, it appears to run in a stratified charge mode (even if they say it doesn't) cyclically and that makes a lot of combustion noise.
Valve issues? Too new to say. We haven't seen any yet. Requires special spark plugs with 12 point sockets to install, and a specific torque to orient the electrode in just the right spot. The complexity of the system far outweighs any advantage I see. For example the last generation 5.5 liter V8 made 382hp. The new 4.6l biturbo makes 402hp. Its a LOT more complicated though. Far more shit to go wrong, added expense and complexity come time for repairs and service. The AMG versions are making ridiculous numbers. 560hp and similar torque with AWD.... however they lack that beautiful noise the old 6.3 N/A motor had. When something does go wrong, its really, really hard to figure out what it is. There are more places for the fuel to bleed off.... so losing fuel pressure means it could be an injector, a pump, a valve.... its not a matter of simply watching the fuel pressure gauge hooked to the rail and seeing the fuel pressure drop, pulling the rail and watching for injector drip.... you cannot do any of these simple tests with the high pressure system. Its a fucking bitch to diagnose. Its hard as hell to work on and has seemingly impossible standards for dumb shit like measuring fuel line fittings for sealing area and stretch.... Something like contaminated fuel could really fucking ruin your day. It was bad enough with a port injection system. Now imagine throwing a few thousand dollars more worth of parts and labor in to it. |
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Posted: 3/17/2014 5:29:58 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
VW tech here. on the newer (06 and up) 4 cylinder turbos with direct injection, we have to remove intakes and manually clean intake valves. I've seen them get NASTY at as low as 40,000 miles. Before <a href="http://s247.photobucket.com/user/KeasbeyNights_01/media/20131121_113742.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg147/KeasbeyNights_01/20131121_113742.jpg</a> After <a href="http://s247.photobucket.com/user/KeasbeyNights_01/media/20131122_082408.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg147/KeasbeyNights_01/20131122_082408.jpg</a> So for me MPI it is. Holy shit. Now I'm someone who knows NOTHING about this direct injection, so why does it cause that kind of buildup? |
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Posted: 3/17/2014 5:46:09 PM EDT
[#15]
Normally the fuel spray with its added detergents sprays over the intake valves on its way in to the cylinder, thus cleaning them. In direct injection engines the fuel never sees the valve as it is sprayed at high pressure directly in to the cylinder. So the intake valves do not benefit from this cleaning effect. They get carbon build up from crankcase ventilation fumes and exhaust gas reversion and stuff like oil from the slight leakage of turbocharger seals and oil from the crankcase that was carried out with gases but didn't quite get removed in the oil separators. The intake valves operate cooler than exhaust valves so stuff sticks rather than getting burned off on the really hot exhaust valves.
I assume the reduction in airflow causes a significant performance drop and possibly uneven idling and running as the deposits might vary from cylinder to cylinder. I've heard on port injection vehicles the carbon build up on intake valves can absorb fuel and make cold starts an iffy proposition. I've never run in to this. Usually carbon build up on the stuff I see causes cold start knocks and some top engine cleaner or various carbon removal techniques will make a marked difference in the noise. |
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Posted: 3/17/2014 5:55:03 PM EDT
[#16]
I think the only way around the intake port carbon issue is to also run port injection for the sole purpose to wash intake valves with fuel.
But then at that point you have additional complexity on top of DI. One way around this is to run meth injection as its sprayed upstream and keeps intake valves clean but that not realistic to run for most people. |
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Posted: 3/17/2014 6:00:43 PM EDT
[#17]
From what I've been reading just now the design of the egr and crankcase ventilation systems have a lot to do with how much carbon build up you will see. Perhaps this explains why it's not a problem I see but others do on different car lines. One article noted injection events were timed specifically to reduce carbon build up.
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Posted: 3/17/2014 6:05:08 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Normally the fuel spray with its added detergents sprays over the intake valves on its way in to the cylinder, thus cleaning them. In direct injection engines the fuel never sees the valve as it is sprayed at high pressure directly in to the cylinder. So the intake valves do not benefit from this cleaning effect. They get carbon build up from crankcase ventilation fumes and exhaust gas reversion and stuff like oil from the slight leakage of turbocharger seals and oil from the crankcase that was carried out with gases but didn't quite get removed in the oil separators. The intake valves operate cooler than exhaust valves so stuff sticks rather than getting burned off on the really hot exhaust valves. I assume the reduction in airflow causes a significant performance drop and possibly uneven idling and running as the deposits might vary from cylinder to cylinder. I've heard on port injection vehicles the carbon build up on intake valves can absorb fuel and make cold starts an iffy proposition. I've never run in to this. Usually carbon build up on the stuff I see causes cold start knocks and some top engine cleaner or various carbon removal techniques will make a marked difference in the noise. Nailed it. Tie crankcase gases loaded with oil recirculated into the intake, with no more washing of the valves by injectors (moved from intake runner firing into intake port, to firing directly into the combustion chamber) and you get carbon. I advise all my D.I. customers is to run quality 93 fuel, and too put your right foot down once in a while. Don't just baby it everywhere. When I test drive, I'll usually get on a customer car, not full throttle, but "accellerated" for a couple thousand rpms. I can tell who listens to me and who doesn't. They can look like diesels if the valves are carboned up and WOT'd through 1st and 2nd. ETA: Yes it does rob performance. It's night and day before and after a clean. Symptoms don't show up to the customer because to them it's a gradual degradation of performance. Most customers won't notice till it affects cold idling, causing misfires, and a CEL. Easy to diagnose if you have a borescope. But can cover up a faulty coil or injector, due to multiple cylinder misfires till after the valves are clean. |
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Posted: 3/17/2014 6:09:19 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
... run quality 93 fuel, and too put your right foot down once in a while. Don't just baby it everywhere... Ah, the 'Italian tuneup' 
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Posted: 3/17/2014 6:14:09 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ah, the 'Italian tuneup' Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
... run quality 93 fuel, and too put your right foot down once in a while. Don't just baby it everywhere... Ah, the 'Italian tuneup' And I HATE cleaning them. It's not bad money, and it's easy to do. Intakes come off real quick after you've done 40 or so. That carbon shit is just filthy. Have to scrub/pick it out, and it sticks and stains. I'll have black spots on my arms for days till it all washes off. You'd think I'd learn by now to buy a cheap jacket to cover myself, but I'm stubborn. 
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Posted: 3/17/2014 6:47:43 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And I HATE cleaning them. It's not bad money, and it's easy to do. Intakes come off real quick after you've done 40 or so. That carbon shit is just filthy. Have to scrub/pick it out, and it sticks and stains. I'll have black spots on my arms for days till it all washes off. You'd think I'd learn by now to buy a cheap jacket to cover myself, but I'm stubborn. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
... run quality 93 fuel, and too put your right foot down once in a while. Don't just baby it everywhere... Ah, the 'Italian tuneup' And I HATE cleaning them. It's not bad money, and it's easy to do. Intakes come off real quick after you've done 40 or so. That carbon shit is just filthy. Have to scrub/pick it out, and it sticks and stains. I'll have black spots on my arms for days till it all washes off. You'd think I'd learn by now to buy a cheap jacket to cover myself, but I'm stubborn. Surprised there's no tool to help. With the BMW I6s just take the intake off, make sure the valves are fully closed on the port you're working on and hookup a machine that uses walnut shells and a vacuum and hit the button. |
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Posted: 3/17/2014 7:14:36 PM EDT
[#22]
So... after reading all this, I am beginning to rethink looking at the Ecoboost F150 as my next truck. Any Ford techs with experience with this one the Ecoboosts?
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Posted: 3/18/2014 12:01:32 AM EDT
[#23]
Watched a few video's on youtube sound lie some of the newer cars are having less problems with carbon buildup.
One claimed you ca get the engine hot enough to burn it off. Looks like crankcase breather into the intake needs a catch can or just vented outside the intake. |
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Posted: 3/18/2014 12:13:04 AM EDT
[#24]
I have a Scion FR-S which uses a suburu boxer engine coupled with a Toyota direct injection system. From my understanding it also has port injectors that it switches on and off depending on engine load. So far I haven't had many problems other than a loud HPFP but I haven't put many miles on it. From what I am reading though other people aren't reporting many problems with it either in regards to fouling of the direct injectors.
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Posted: 3/18/2014 12:22:34 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have a Scion FR-S which uses a suburu boxer engine coupled with a Toyota direct injection system. From my understanding it also has port injectors that it switches on and off depending on engine load. So far I haven't had many problems other than a loud HPFP but I haven't put many miles on it. From what I am reading though other people aren't reporting many problems with it either in regards to fouling of the direct injectors. Yes it has both types. Nice car but no room for dogs. |
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Posted: 3/18/2014 12:27:39 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes it has both types. Nice car but no room for dogs. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I have a Scion FR-S which uses a suburu boxer engine coupled with a Toyota direct injection system. From my understanding it also has port injectors that it switches on and off depending on engine load. So far I haven't had many problems other than a loud HPFP but I haven't put many miles on it. From what I am reading though other people aren't reporting many problems with it either in regards to fouling of the direct injectors. Yes it has both types. Nice car but no room for dogs. |
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Posted: 3/18/2014 5:23:11 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Surprised there's no tool to help. With the BMW I6s just take the intake off, make sure the valves are fully closed on the port you're working on and hookup a machine that uses walnut shells and a vacuum and hit the button. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
... run quality 93 fuel, and too put your right foot down once in a while. Don't just baby it everywhere... Ah, the 'Italian tuneup' And I HATE cleaning them. It's not bad money, and it's easy to do. Intakes come off real quick after you've done 40 or so. That carbon shit is just filthy. Have to scrub/pick it out, and it sticks and stains. I'll have black spots on my arms for days till it all washes off. You'd think I'd learn by now to buy a cheap jacket to cover myself, but I'm stubborn. Surprised there's no tool to help. With the BMW I6s just take the intake off, make sure the valves are fully closed on the port you're working on and hookup a machine that uses walnut shells and a vacuum and hit the button. Media blasting was the first thing we tried. Walnut just stuck to the carbon and built up over it. Have to soak it in brake clean or throttle cleaner, then scrub and pick off whats left. Takes avout 30 minutes per cylinder. |
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Posted: 3/18/2014 9:14:35 AM EDT
[#28]
My daily driver is a Nissan Juke with a 1.6 DIG Turbo motor in it. I have been following information about the car and so far nobody has been reporting issues with the injectors. (timing chains tho... yeah....) I have had it for a year and apart from the shitty OEM tires (Goodyear RSA) have had no issues with it. I do all required service at the proper intervals and only use 93 octane gas |
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Posted: 3/18/2014 1:03:06 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Media blasting was the first thing we tried. Walnut just stuck to the carbon and built up over it. Have to soak it in brake clean or throttle cleaner, then scrub and pick off whats left. Takes avout 30 minutes per cylinder. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
... run quality 93 fuel, and too put your right foot down once in a while. Don't just baby it everywhere... Ah, the 'Italian tuneup' And I HATE cleaning them. It's not bad money, and it's easy to do. Intakes come off real quick after you've done 40 or so. That carbon shit is just filthy. Have to scrub/pick it out, and it sticks and stains. I'll have black spots on my arms for days till it all washes off. You'd think I'd learn by now to buy a cheap jacket to cover myself, but I'm stubborn. Surprised there's no tool to help. With the BMW I6s just take the intake off, make sure the valves are fully closed on the port you're working on and hookup a machine that uses walnut shells and a vacuum and hit the button. Media blasting was the first thing we tried. Walnut just stuck to the carbon and built up over it. Have to soak it in brake clean or throttle cleaner, then scrub and pick off whats left. Takes avout 30 minutes per cylinder. These guys were sucessfull with walnut media blasting. |
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Posted: 3/18/2014 3:08:49 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Holy shit. Now I'm someone who knows NOTHING about this direct injection, so why does it cause that kind of buildup? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
VW tech here. on the newer (06 and up) 4 cylinder turbos with direct injection, we have to remove intakes and manually clean intake valves. I've seen them get NASTY at as low as 40,000 miles. Before <a href="http://s247.photobucket.com/user/KeasbeyNights_01/media/20131121_113742.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg147/KeasbeyNights_01/20131121_113742.jpg</a> After <a href="http://s247.photobucket.com/user/KeasbeyNights_01/media/20131122_082408.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg147/KeasbeyNights_01/20131122_082408.jpg</a> So for me MPI it is. Holy shit. Now I'm someone who knows NOTHING about this direct injection, so why does it cause that kind of buildup? Like any car with a PCV valve, liquid oil seepage and fumes. This is what all intake valves would look like if they didn't have gasoline (a very good cleaner/solvent) spraying over them. If you know your engines and own an HCCI engine you want to use an induction cleaner at idle with a good throttle snap every minute or so every time you change the air filter. No intake valve buildup to worry about. |
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Posted: 3/19/2014 11:39:18 AM EDT
[#31]
With any new technology there's always luddites, but there's also teething issues.
I expect to see DI become more common, and as it does the issues related to it will be resolved. |
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Posted: 3/19/2014 11:52:21 AM EDT
[#32]
The oil accumulation is not only a DI problem, but it is much worse in DI's. MPI gets it too and its because of the EPA required emissions equipment. The egr pumps air right back into the intake manifold and the heavier vaporized oil accumulates. Its believed that the engine will burn off most of the oil, but it also reduces the octane of the fuel and causes spark retard.
Here is the inside of a 6.1 hemi engine 
Most people who know run a catch can. It catches the oil before the oil can be introduced back into the intake manifold. 
Accumulation of oil between a single oil change. 
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Posted: 3/19/2014 12:11:26 PM EDT
[#33]
Do any of these issues relate to a 2011 Nissan 3.5 like in the Maxima,Murano,etc?
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Posted: 3/19/2014 12:23:24 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Do any of these issues relate to a 2011 Nissan 3.5 like in the Maxima,Murano,etc? Certainly does. There are a lot of people putting them on 3.5 Nissans after seeing how bad the intake valves look. |
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Posted: 3/19/2014 12:39:27 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Certainly does. There are a lot of people putting them on 3.5 Nissans after seeing how bad the intake valves look. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Do any of these issues relate to a 2011 Nissan 3.5 like in the Maxima,Murano,etc? Certainly does. There are a lot of people putting them on 3.5 Nissans after seeing how bad the intake valves look. I would love to learn more about this. I just got this 2011 Murano SL AWD and want it to last. I have been reading the Murano forums. |
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Posted: 3/19/2014 1:08:54 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The oil accumulation is not only a DI problem, but it is much worse in DI's. MPI gets it too and its because of the EPA required emissions equipment. The egr pumps air right back into the intake manifold and the heavier vaporized oil accumulates. Its believed that the engine will burn off most of the oil, but it also reduces the octane of the fuel and causes spark retard. Here is the inside of a 6.1 hemi engine <a href="http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/archtaan/media/04.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m608/archtaan/04.jpg</a> Most people who know run a catch can. It catches the oil before the oil can be introduced back into the intake manifold. <a href="http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/archtaan/media/images-1.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m608/archtaan/images-1.jpg</a> Accumulation of oil between a single oil change. <a href="http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/archtaan/media/images2.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m608/archtaan/images2.jpg</a> Thats all pretty cool and I have been wondering about doing it. But...does catching the oil do anything other than keep the intake manifold clean? What does the spark retard result in? Just curious, I do not know that much about this side of things. |
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Posted: 3/19/2014 1:19:10 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thats all pretty cool and I have been wondering about doing it. But...does catching the oil do anything other than keep the intake manifold clean? What does the spark retard result in? Just curious, I do not know that much about this side of things. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The oil accumulation is not only a DI problem, but it is much worse in DI's. MPI gets it too and its because of the EPA required emissions equipment. The egr pumps air right back into the intake manifold and the heavier vaporized oil accumulates. Its believed that the engine will burn off most of the oil, but it also reduces the octane of the fuel and causes spark retard. Here is the inside of a 6.1 hemi engine <a href="http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/archtaan/media/04.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m608/archtaan/04.jpg</a> Most people who know run a catch can. It catches the oil before the oil can be introduced back into the intake manifold. <a href="http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/archtaan/media/images-1.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m608/archtaan/images-1.jpg</a> Accumulation of oil between a single oil change. <a href="http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/archtaan/media/images2.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m608/archtaan/images2.jpg</a> Thats all pretty cool and I have been wondering about doing it. But...does catching the oil do anything other than keep the intake manifold clean? What does the spark retard result in? Just curious, I do not know that much about this side of things. Catching the oil does 2 things. 1st, It ensures your intake charge is not contaminated since the egr/oil filled charge takes up space combustible air would have occupied. This fresher charge will allow more power to be made. If the spark retard senses detonation due to the decrease in the octane of the fuel, then it will pull timing to protect the engine which results in less efficiency = less power/mpg's. 2nd- It keeps the intake and valves cleaner which prevents the buildup on the surfaces. This build up causes the airflow to become more turbulent and less efficient = less power. Severe build up on the pistons and inside the combustion chamber decrease the volume which increases the combustion ratio. This with a combination of a reduced octane rating from the vaporized oil results in detonation. The detonation causes spark to be retarded and the cycle keeps going till you either brake something or start throwing codes. |
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Posted: 3/19/2014 1:33:40 PM EDT
[#38]
Wish I knew about these things when I had a northstar engine. That sucker was a oil burner galore.
Still going to install one on my Ford triton asap. It burns oil too but not as bad. |
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Posted: 3/19/2014 2:05:54 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wish I knew about these things when I had a northstar engine. That sucker was a oil burner galore. Still going to install one on my Ford triton asap. It burns oil too but not as bad. Sound like you are having other problems.......not DI related. |
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Posted: 3/22/2014 9:21:05 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The oil accumulation is not only a DI problem, but it is much worse in DI's. MPI gets it too and its because of the EPA required emissions equipment. The egr pumps air right back into the intake manifold and the heavier vaporized oil accumulates. Its believed that the engine will burn off most of the oil, but it also reduces the octane of the fuel and causes spark retard. Here is the inside of a 6.1 hemi engine <a href="http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/archtaan/media/04.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m608/archtaan/04.jpg</a> Most people who know run a catch can. It catches the oil before the oil can be introduced back into the intake manifold. <a href="http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/archtaan/media/images-1.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m608/archtaan/images-1.jpg</a> Accumulation of oil between a single oil change. <a href="http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/archtaan/media/images2.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m608/archtaan/images2.jpg</a> Are there kits for various applications or are these specific to vehicles/engines? Or is this a DIY/custom shop setup? 
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Posted: 3/22/2014 10:03:08 AM EDT
[#41]
PCV can probably just be vented to atmosphere and block off the intake hole/hose.
Just a little oil mist. |
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Posted: 4/5/2014 8:00:38 PM EDT
[#42]
Bump
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Posted: 4/5/2014 9:35:03 PM EDT
[#43]
Depends on the implementation. Better designs are able to wash fuel over the intake valves via reversion or extra manifold injectors.
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Posted: 4/6/2014 6:30:19 AM EDT
[#44]
BMW came out with a special tool to blast the valves with walnut shells.
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Posted: 4/6/2014 8:55:11 AM EDT
[#45]
Have their ever been any complications from forcing abrasive media into the head ports? I know you make sure the valves are closed first, but I'd be more than a little apprehensive about doing that. I guess the importance of cleanliness and avoiding dirt and debris during engine assembly has really been drilled into my head over the years.
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Posted: 4/6/2014 11:57:47 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Have their ever been any complications from forcing abrasive media into the head ports? I know you make sure the valves are closed first, but I'd be more than a little apprehensive about doing that. I guess the importance of cleanliness and avoiding dirt and debris during engine assembly has really been drilled into my head over the years. There is a video of them using that BMW tool everything gets vacuumed out. I don't thing walnut shells are very abrasive anyway. I bet they can do it with dry ice pellets also. |
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Posted: 4/6/2014 1:23:10 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Have their ever been any complications from forcing abrasive media into the head ports? I know you make sure the valves are closed first, but I'd be more than a little apprehensive about doing that. I guess the importance of cleanliness and avoiding dirt and debris during engine assembly has really been drilled into my head over the years. No issues. It's basically closed system once it attaches to the port you're working on. |
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Posted: 4/6/2014 1:41:27 PM EDT
[#48]
Had a 2008 HHR SS for four years. Direct injected, 2.0 inter cooled turbo. Ran it with a GM stage II kit and HP Tuner getting 21 lbs of boost. 5 speed manual trans w/ diff. I only put 23k miles on it and never had any problems with the motor. Did have to put an Exedy Hyper Single clutch and flywheel as the stock one didn't hold up to the added boost, and went through 2 sets of tires
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Posted: 4/6/2014 4:35:04 PM EDT
[#49]
This used to happen with fuel injected cars as well. Carbon build up was bad even though the fuel was being sprayed directly at the valves. Carbureted cars have also had the issue in the past, depending on how they were driven and serviced.
To solve the issue on FI, additives were added to the fuel to clean the carbon. Have you heard of Techron? It was Chevrons trademarked name for the additive. All fuel suppliers were required to add cleaners, they just didn't use a "brand name" cleaner. There is no way to stop EGR from making carbon on the valves, but we used to use a chemical to clean carbon from engines. It was sold by GM under the name "Top Engine Cleaner" and was around before I was working on cars starting in the '80's. It is designed to clean carbon from the intake, valves and combustion chamber. It used to be pour in, but now comes in an aerosol can. It works really well. I hear Seafoam does pretty good at the same thing, but I know Top Engine Cleaner is Catalytic converter safe. Toyota/Subaru has the right idea, but it seems a bit complicated and expensive, I still like it. This is just my opinion and observations, YMMV. |
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Posted: 4/6/2014 8:49:04 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This used to happen with fuel injected cars as well. Carbon build up was bad even though the fuel was being sprayed directly at the valves. Carbureted cars have also had the issue in the past, depending on how they were driven and serviced. To solve the issue on FI, additives were added to the fuel to clean the carbon. Have you heard of Techron? It was Chevrons trademarked name for the additive. All fuel suppliers were required to add cleaners, they just didn't use a "brand name" cleaner. There is no way to stop EGR from making carbon on the valves, but we used to use a chemical to clean carbon from engines. It was sold by GM under the name "Top Engine Cleaner" and was around before I was working on cars starting in the '80's. It is designed to clean carbon from the intake, valves and combustion chamber. It used to be pour in, but now comes in an aerosol can. It works really well. I hear Seafoam does pretty good at the same thing, but I know Top Engine Cleaner is Catalytic converter safe. Toyota/Subaru has the right idea, but it seems a bit complicated and expensive, I still like it. This is just my opinion and observations, YMMV. I've used another cleaner called Lawn Mower Tuneup. Used to buy it at Lowes but haven't been able to find it there for awhile. Now have found it at Tractor Supply. It's a really good carbon cleaner. I even use it to clean AR15 bolts because it works so well to remove carbon. LMT |
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