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5/29/2017 5:35:05 AM
Posted: 3/24/2012 8:26:34 PM EDT
Just curious, is there any besides simplicity and not needing a computer to control the fuel flow?
Link Posted: 3/24/2012 9:06:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/24/2012 9:09:48 PM EDT by vbfg135]
I believe K-Jetronics series was mechanical fuel injection so no advantage for a carb.

http://www.dmcnews.com/Techsection/Bosch%20K-Jetronic%20Fuel%20Injection%20Manual%20-%20boschtech-12d.pdf
Link Posted: 3/24/2012 9:39:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By vbfg135:
I believe K-Jetronics series was mechanical fuel injection so no advantage for a carb.

http://www.dmcnews.com/Techsection/Bosch%20K-Jetronic%20Fuel%20Injection%20Manual%20-%20boschtech-12d.pdf


Yeah K-jet was mechanical. Used a big ass fuel distributer that was a nightmare to work on.

The only thing that some would consider an advantage of a carb is it's simplicity. No electronics and low fuel pressure
Link Posted: 3/24/2012 10:56:43 PM EDT
Easy to work on I guess..No need for remapping and what not... But at the same time I know alot of guys who are well learned in fuel injection will say they are easy to work on as well..guess it depends
Link Posted: 3/25/2012 12:38:34 AM EDT
Tell you what...I bought a carbed motorcycle not long ago, and it brought back all the memories of how carbed engines run before they warm up
Link Posted: 3/25/2012 12:42:17 AM EDT
On bikes? Easier to tune for hot rodding, don't always have to go to a freakin Dyno.
Link Posted: 3/25/2012 5:38:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By fortuna:
Just curious, is there any besides simplicity and not needing a computer to control the fuel flow?


It is impossible to say without knowing the application.
Link Posted: 3/25/2012 5:38:57 AM EDT
in performance applications––- carb's

in a daily driver––- fuel injection
Link Posted: 3/25/2012 7:21:11 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/25/2012 7:50:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BP03:
Easy to work on I guess.


This.

It is much easier to tune, troubleshoot, and tinker with carbs than with FI. (At least on your own without specialized electronic tools, that is.)

And when shit goes wrong with carbs, you can usually figure it out and fix it cheaply and easily with a part or two. When shit goes wrong with FI, you're generally going to be replacing entire assemblies or sub-assemblies instead of a couple of lone parts.
Link Posted: 3/25/2012 8:11:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Quintin:
No.

A carburetor is a precisely manufactured, complex device specifically designed to mix the incorrect amount of fuel with the incorrect amount of air at the incorrect time.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile



This is the correct answer.
Link Posted: 3/25/2012 8:47:30 AM EDT
Remember when an engine in just about any automobile was worn out at 100k


Yeah thank carburetors for that
Link Posted: 3/25/2012 10:01:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Walkure:
Originally Posted By BP03:
Easy to work on I guess.


This.

It is much easier to tune, troubleshoot, and tinker with carbs than with FI. (At least on your own without specialized electronic tools, that is.)

And when shit goes wrong with carbs, you can usually figure it out and fix it cheaply and easily with a part or two. When shit goes wrong with FI, you're generally going to be replacing entire assemblies or sub-assemblies instead of a couple of lone parts.


Shit going wrong with carbs happens orders of magnitude more than shit going wrong with FI, though.
Link Posted: 3/25/2012 10:41:56 AM EDT
Engines with carbs are easier to get going in the real cold temps.
Especially with manual chokes.
Link Posted: 3/25/2012 11:20:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Sniper_Wolfe:
Originally Posted By Walkure:
Originally Posted By BP03:
Easy to work on I guess.


This.

It is much easier to tune, troubleshoot, and tinker with carbs than with FI. (At least on your own without specialized electronic tools, that is.)

And when shit goes wrong with carbs, you can usually figure it out and fix it cheaply and easily with a part or two. When shit goes wrong with FI, you're generally going to be replacing entire assemblies or sub-assemblies instead of a couple of lone parts.


Shit going wrong with carbs happens orders of magnitude more than shit going wrong with FI, though.



QFT I've never heard of carburetors going anywhere near 200k on the original completely unserviced fuel delivery system. Efi does this all the time plus much much more.
Link Posted: 3/25/2012 11:38:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2012 11:39:33 AM EDT by Chromekilla]
Originally Posted By Quintin:
No.

A carburetor is a precisely manufactured, complex device specifically designed to mix the incorrect amount of fuel with the incorrect amount of air at the incorrect time.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


I always thought that carbs were easier to work on. I had one on my 84 ford f250. It was brand new and I barely could dial it in. Forget jet changes. Carbs require a specialized set of experience, to include trial and error. I won't have another carbed vehicle if I have the choice, neither a gasoline rig, unless its a car or light truck.
Link Posted: 3/25/2012 12:51:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BP03:
Easy to work on I guess..No need for remapping and what not... But at the same time I know alot of guys who are well learned in fuel injection will say they are easy to work on as well..guess it depends

In one sense yes, you don't have all the sensors, ECU, and other crap to deal with.

In another sense no, you've yards and yards of vacuum lines and then you have the carb itself. Try rebuilding one
Link Posted: 3/25/2012 12:57:27 PM EDT
Carbs suck... especially with today's crap ethanol gas.
Link Posted: 3/25/2012 3:44:00 PM EDT
carbs only have an advantage in a narrow window and cost.

in a specific altitude, specific humidity, specific ambient temp, a well tuned carb can out perform generic efi in both fuel economy, emissions and performance.

next day it rains or temp drops 1 degree and the efi wins.

cost is the only place it always wins.

a proper efi system will at a min run 2k for the associated stuff to run it.

carb can be put on and run for around 400.

you cannot tune a carb faster or easier than efi. it is just cheaper.

converted my 65 coronet to efi just because of how much of a pain it was to tune the carb engine.


the reason the carb engine doesn't last as long was due to fuel washing the cylinders of oil.

the 5.9 mag I pulled out of the yard with 80k miles on it still had the cross hatch in the cylinder bores.

whereas the 318 I pulled out of my car after 20k miles after the rebuild was already smooth.
Link Posted: 3/25/2012 4:02:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By slows2k:
Originally Posted By Quintin:
No.

A carburetor is a precisely manufactured, complex device specifically designed to mix the incorrect amount of fuel with the incorrect amount of air at the incorrect time.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile



This is the correct answer.


not even correct.

Carbs:
easy/easier for the home mech to work on.
if you are at a fairly consistent altitude, carbs are as good as EFI

EFI:
better for big variations in altitude.

despite all the EFI vs. carbs, this is my my guess.

On an off road bike, I find it much easier to get the dirt out of a carb than injectors, plus no sensors to go fouling 100 miles from the nearest paved road.

so which is better? Depends on how/what/where you operate a vehicle


Link Posted: 3/25/2012 4:04:37 PM EDT
This, just changed out a set of o-ring injectors, PITA to get the fuel rail off. Carb rebuilding and jetting is an art. FI is all computers and sensors.

Originally Posted By 1iviper:
in performance applications––- carb's

in a daily driver––- fuel injection


Link Posted: 3/25/2012 4:05:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Andrewh:
carbs only have an advantage in a narrow window and cost.

in a specific altitude, specific humidity, specific ambient temp, a well tuned carb can out perform generic efi in both fuel economy, emissions and performance.

next day it rains or temp drops 1 degree and the efi wins.

cost is the only place it always wins.

a proper efi system will at a min run 2k for the associated stuff to run it.

carb can be put on and run for around 400.

you cannot tune a carb faster or easier than efi. it is just cheaper.

converted my 65 coronet to efi just because of how much of a pain it was to tune the carb engine.


the reason the carb engine doesn't last as long was due to fuel washing the cylinders of oil.

the 5.9 mag I pulled out of the yard with 80k miles on it still had the cross hatch in the cylinder bores.

whereas the 318 I pulled out of my car after 20k miles after the rebuild was already smooth.


cars? i have no idea, I dont drive those death traps!

Bikes, I have never had rain cause any problems with ANYTHING carb'd.
Nor humidity.

I have had fuel cook out of the bowl in 100+ deg., flogging the shit out of an air cooled thumper. I looked at it as a time for ME to cool off
Link Posted: 3/25/2012 5:15:14 PM EDT
A carburetor is a pretty crude metering and mixing device compared to modern fuel injection.

The older TBI systems weren't much harder to troubleshoot (easier in some ways) than a carb.

However a properly tuned Quadrajet is probably the best carb ever made. I have seen them rival the performance and fuel economy of most TBI systems.

Fuel injection is really pretty trouble free. Most problems can be associated to bad wiring, bad vacuum hoses, etc.
Link Posted: 3/25/2012 7:10:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TruckinAR:
Originally Posted By slows2k:
Originally Posted By Quintin:
No.

A carburetor is a precisely manufactured, complex device specifically designed to mix the incorrect amount of fuel with the incorrect amount of air at the incorrect time.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile



This is the correct answer.


not even correct.

Carbs:
easy/easier for the home mech to work on.
if you are at a fairly consistent altitude, carbs are as good as EFI

EFI:
better for big variations in altitude.

despite all the EFI vs. carbs, this is my my guess.

On an off road bike, I find it much easier to get the dirt out of a carb than injectors, plus no sensors to go fouling 100 miles from the nearest paved road.

so which is better? Depends on how/what/where you operate a vehicle





The 2 guys that make a living repairing cars respectfully disagree.
Link Posted: 3/25/2012 11:04:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 1iviper:
in performance applications––- carb's

in a daily driver––- fuel injection


I think this is the winning post so far. I totally agree with this.


I will never go back to a four cylinder bike with four carbs again. It's fine when everything is clean and properly adjusted but it is a complete pain in the butt when there is any sort of problem. You also run a higher risk of having an issue because you have four sets of jets to clog, four sets of carb floats and needle valves that can leak, four sets of adjustment screws to adjust just right, two fuel petcocks that can leak (on my old bike at least), four carbs to keep in sync, etc... I personally would rather go back to point and condenser ignition then go back to having an old bike with four carbs again.

The other problem with cars with carb's is trying to find a decent mechanic that can still work on the carb and get good results. The last carb mechanic generation is in or almost in full retirement now. Almost every car mechanic technician now came from the EFI generation that is better at "Remove and Replace" then "Remove and Repair".

With the two above paragraphs being said, it takes a lot more money to adjust EFI then it is to adjust a carb. Want it to run a little richer then the stock lean setting? It only takes few bucks to get you a new set of jets. It takes a few hundred bucks to get you EFI programmer.
Link Posted: 3/26/2012 6:02:54 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/26/2012 7:34:58 AM EDT
K-Jet was more hydraulic than mechanical. It was beautifully simple and easy to work on. A fuel pressure gauge was about the only diagnostic tool needed. Even when they added electronics to it. Even that only amounted to a device to better control the lower chamber pressure in the fuel distributor.

I'll take it over a carb any day.
Link Posted: 3/26/2012 8:14:19 AM EDT
I'm a member over on the Vintage Mustang Forums. At least 2 times a month, maybe more, a newby comes along that has always wanted a Vintage Mustang and finally found one.
I'm not talking about older guys. These are 20 somethings that have never even seen a carb. Even some teenagers.
And they don't know how to start a car with a carb. They don't understand why its running like shit one day, runs like a dream the next. They don't even know what a choke is.
We sometimes really throw them for a loop and ask them what their points gap is set at

In the end, they get a great education. Everyone there is a straight shooter that is out to help each other. One time I tried some AR15.com humor and it completely went over everyone's head.

But this thread is why I bought a F.A.S.T. FI system for my '66 project. The only time I want to open the hood is to show it off, or change the oil.
Link Posted: 3/26/2012 11:23:58 AM EDT
Mine has SIX carbs


Link Posted: 3/26/2012 1:30:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 1iviper:
in performance applications––- carb's

in a daily driver––- fuel injection


A carb can't precisely optimize the AFR for a cylinder across the entire RPM range at different throttle positions, even holding all atmospheric conditions constant, so...
Link Posted: 3/26/2012 2:34:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ColdEngineer:
Originally Posted By 1iviper:
in performance applications––- carb's

in a daily driver––- fuel injection


A carb can't precisely optimize the AFR for a cylinder across the entire RPM range at different throttle positions, even holding all atmospheric conditions constant, so...


carb's can make more power than FI can. that's why i said in a performance application i would prob take a carb and in a daily driver or just about any other application i would take FI. but as t44e6 replied right b4 me that without knowing the application it's hard to say which would be better. i was just generalizing.

ScottsGT––-go easy on me over on the vintage mustang forum if you see me asking some q's i don't post much but i do stop by every day over there to try and learn a few things to help with my resto. i'm "all good" on starting a car with a carb but i might have a few q's for you wise one's over there after i get a little farther along in the project
Link Posted: 3/26/2012 3:25:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2012 3:30:44 PM EDT by Krochus]
Originally Posted By 1iviper:
Originally Posted By ColdEngineer:
Originally Posted By 1iviper:
in performance applications––- carb's

in a daily driver––- fuel injection


A carb can't precisely optimize the AFR for a cylinder across the entire RPM range at different throttle positions, even holding all atmospheric conditions constant, so...


carb's can make more power than FI can. that's why i said in a performance application i would prob take a carb and in a daily driver or just about any other application i would take FI. but as t44e6 replied right b4 me that without knowing the application it's hard to say which would be better. i was just generalizing.

ScottsGT––-go easy on me over on the vintage mustang forum if you see me asking some q's i don't post much but i do stop by every day over there to try and learn a few things to help with my resto. i'm "all good" on starting a car with a carb but i might have a few q's for you wise one's over there after i get a little farther along in the project



On what to you base this assumption that carbs can make more power?

The only racing applications you still see carbs ran in are ones where the rules mandate their usage. Anything boosted via supercharger or Turbo will sport some sort of fuel injection. From f1 cars to top fuel dragsters, ralley cars to offshore power boats.

The real answer to the op's question is the one and only thing carburetors do better than efi is catch on fire and be easier to work on for the guy with minimal mechanical aptitude.


I can do both just fine. This weekend I went from wrenching on a 5.0 mustang to getting a 30 year since ran 1952 Chevy truck going.
Link Posted: 3/26/2012 5:34:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2012 5:37:13 PM EDT by VaFarmBoy]
Originally Posted By Krochus:
Remember when an engine in just about any automobile was worn out at 100k


Yeah thank carburetors for that


This. Excess unburnt fuel "washes" the cylinder walls of oil and increases wear, on top of wasting fuel.
Link Posted: 3/26/2012 5:59:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By desertw0lf:
On bikes? Easier to tune for hot rodding, don't always have to go to a freakin Dyno.


Also for fuel mileage on bikes. My bike has carbs and gets better mileage per HP than fuel injected liter bikes.
Link Posted: 3/26/2012 6:05:12 PM EDT
Whoever said carbs are easy to work on never messed with a Quadrajet
Link Posted: 3/26/2012 6:20:09 PM EDT
Ask this question in the survival forum and see what responses you get.

When I worked as a service writer for a motorcycle shop, probably 95% of the "runs like crap" bikes were carbureted.
Link Posted: 3/26/2012 6:32:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Gyrene84:
Originally Posted By desertw0lf:
On bikes? Easier to tune for hot rodding, don't always have to go to a freakin Dyno.


Also for fuel mileage on bikes. My bike has carbs and gets better mileage per HP than fuel injected liter bikes.

What is your bike, and what bike(s) are you comparing to? I bet HP per liter is different, too.
Link Posted: 3/26/2012 10:19:57 PM EDT
This is a fun topic and having driven carburated cars in the 70's (my fathers 64' Fairlane Staion Wagon, my 65' Mustang, and my friends Dodge Dart) going to EFI in my next 4 cars made driving so easy. No stumbling or dying on hard breaking or hard turning, no weather issues, and other aforementioned issues on this thread.
But there is a soft spot for carbs if you're into the nostolgic and I guess that's where carburated cars will always win... because some of the most beautiful automobiles were of the carburated era.

When I built my Factory Five roadster, one of the biggest obstacle was fuel delivery. But ultimately, the choice because clear: 4 barrel carburator - Barry Grant Mighty Demon to be precise. Thankfully, this isn't a daily driver but let me tell you, I've not had a problem yet that was carubrated related in the 14,000 miles it's been running. I will say it takes a GOOD tuner to know how to dial it in initially. While I'm pretty sure I can tune it myself now, the guy who tuned it for me, was well versed in the composition of todays fuel, and distributor timing and advance curves.... all essential in making a carb perform as expected and without any hhiccups. I can turn hard and stop hard and my engine never dies. I but anywhere between 12-14 afr based on the infrared sensor he used. And on a trip to Los Angeles (from the SF Bay Area), I averaged 16mpg with a best leg of 18.5mpg... keeping in mind the 'average' speed along I-5 is 80mph (18 wheelers will honk and pass you if yoiu're going 75).

I would never use a carb in a daily car. But on a project car, assuming no forced induction, I do like to mess with the venturi method.... but as a side note, I do have an electric pump and a return line because if I decided to run a supercharger in the future, I can upgrade the pump from 7 psi to whatever is required to support something like 600-700HP and the return line will already be present. I did plan smartly when I built this thing. :D
Link Posted: 3/26/2012 11:55:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Gyrene84:
Originally Posted By desertw0lf:
On bikes? Easier to tune for hot rodding, don't always have to go to a freakin Dyno.


Also for fuel mileage on bikes. My bike has carbs and gets better mileage per HP than fuel injected liter bikes.


My newer EFI bike is pretty much a modern day version of my old bike that had carb's. My new bike has a little bigger engine (1250 vs 1100), has more power, and gets much better gas mileage (even on the days when my old bike ran great).

I also have doubts that your bike (whatever it is) gets better gas mileage per horsepower then liter bikes like the BMW S1000RR, GSXR1000, Honda 1000RR, etc. Let's say those bikes average 175hp per liter at 38 mpg. That is a ratio of 4.61 hp per mpg. Please post your hp per mpg please.
Link Posted: 3/27/2012 3:14:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 1iviper:
Originally Posted By ColdEngineer:
Originally Posted By 1iviper:
in performance applications––- carb's

in a daily driver––- fuel injection


A carb can't precisely optimize the AFR for a cylinder across the entire RPM range at different throttle positions, even holding all atmospheric conditions constant, so...


carb's can make more power than FI can. that's why i said in a performance application i would prob take a carb and in a daily driver or just about any other application i would take FI. but as t44e6 replied right b4 me that without knowing the application it's hard to say which would be better. i was just generalizing.

ScottsGT––-go easy on me over on the vintage mustang forum if you see me asking some q's i don't post much but i do stop by every day over there to try and learn a few things to help with my resto. i'm "all good" on starting a car with a carb but i might have a few q's for you wise one's over there after i get a little farther along in the project


Just because every EFI application you've seen has been tuned for economy doesn't mean carb technology has more capability for power than EFI, because it doesn't.
Link Posted: 3/27/2012 6:39:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By flyguync:
Whoever said carbs are easy to work on never messed with a Quadrajet


Quadrajet ian't that difficult.


Thermoquads on the other hand...
Link Posted: 3/27/2012 6:45:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By hobbsar:
Originally Posted By flyguync:
Whoever said carbs are easy to work on never messed with a Quadrajet


Quadrajet ian't that difficult.


Thermoquads on the other hand...



Ill see your thermoquad and raise you a varijet
Link Posted: 3/27/2012 8:25:52 PM EDT
But carbs are sooooo much more fun to fiddle with

Link Posted: 3/27/2012 8:26:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ColdEngineer:
Originally Posted By 1iviper:
Originally Posted By ColdEngineer:
Originally Posted By 1iviper:
in performance applications––- carb's

in a daily driver––- fuel injection


A carb can't precisely optimize the AFR for a cylinder across the entire RPM range at different throttle positions, even holding all atmospheric conditions constant, so...


carb's can make more power than FI can. that's why i said in a performance application i would prob take a carb and in a daily driver or just about any other application i would take FI. but as t44e6 replied right b4 me that without knowing the application it's hard to say which would be better. i was just generalizing.

ScottsGT––-go easy on me over on the vintage mustang forum if you see me asking some q's i don't post much but i do stop by every day over there to try and learn a few things to help with my resto. i'm "all good" on starting a car with a carb but i might have a few q's for you wise one's over there after i get a little farther along in the project


Just because every EFI application you've seen has been tuned for economy doesn't mean carb technology has more capability for power than EFI, because it doesn't.


+1. Carbs cant touch a properly tuned fuel injection system.
Link Posted: 3/27/2012 8:50:50 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/27/2012 9:15:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2012 9:17:07 PM EDT by BP03]
Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:

Originally Posted By BP03:
Easy to work on I guess..No need for remapping and what not... But at the same time I know alot of guys who are well learned in fuel injection will say they are easy to work on as well..guess it depends

In one sense yes, you don't have all the sensors, ECU, and other crap to deal with.

In another sense no, you've yards and yards of vacuum lines and then you have the carb itself. Try rebuilding one


I have worked on them. More or less the same point i was trying to get across...in some ways they are easier, in some ways not..for some people they are easier, for some not.
Link Posted: 3/28/2012 1:47:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Quintin:
Originally Posted By 1iviper:
Originally Posted By ColdEngineer:
Originally Posted By 1iviper:
in performance applications––- carb's

in a daily driver––- fuel injection


A carb can't precisely optimize the AFR for a cylinder across the entire RPM range at different throttle positions, even holding all atmospheric conditions constant, so...


carb's can make more power than FI can. that's why i said in a performance application i would prob take a carb and in a daily driver or just about any other application i would take FI. but as t44e6 replied right b4 me that without knowing the application it's hard to say which would be better. i was just generalizing.

ScottsGT––-go easy on me over on the vintage mustang forum if you see me asking some q's i don't post much but i do stop by every day over there to try and learn a few things to help with my resto. i'm "all good" on starting a car with a carb but i might have a few q's for you wise one's over there after i get a little farther along in the project


There are fuel injected engines today that make 400+ HP naturally aspirated, deliver respectable fuel mileage, pass all federal emissions standards, last a long time, and come with a warranty. Carbs will never touch that.


I know I keep going back to motorcycles, but they are currently the master for hp per displacement for stock affordable engines. There are bikes like the BMW S1000RR that puts out 193 hp per liter. These bikes are naturally aspirated, warrantied, run on pump gas, and are EFI. I don't see a manufacturer being able to do the same with carbs while maintaining the reliability, ease of use, and engine longevity that EFI can provide. So for those that doubt that EFI can make power, you need to try driving something modern that is designed for performance instead of your car that is made for efficiency.
Link Posted: 3/28/2012 2:11:28 AM EDT
The ONLY time I can see a carb having any advantage over EFI is in case of an EMP.
Link Posted: 3/28/2012 2:15:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2012 2:17:25 AM EDT by gus]
Originally Posted By 1iviper:
carb's can make more power than FI can.




And I'm an old school carburetor guy. I used to make money on the side being paid to tune guys' Holley and other carbs at the drag strip. I resisted fuel injection vigorously!

The only way a carb can make more power is if the FI isn't working. There just isn't any comparison.
Link Posted: 3/29/2012 4:47:56 PM EDT
Another plus for EFI over carbs - running at steep angles when 4-wheelin'.
Link Posted: 3/29/2012 7:00:30 PM EDT
I am older than a few of you guys and am heavily invested in jets and tuning parts for Holleys . That said I would rather have EFI . Carbs suck in cold temp and fuel washing kills engine life . EFI has turned into a reliable product . Look at the power and reliability and miles per gallon of a a modern car . Carbs have hard time matching that . Except maybe Smokey's heat cycle engine
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