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fortuna
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Posted: 3/24/2012 7:26:34 PM EST
Just curious, is there any besides simplicity and not needing a computer to control the fuel flow?
vbfg135
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Posted: 3/24/2012 8:06:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/24/2012 8:09:48 PM EST by vbfg135]
I believe K-Jetronics series was mechanical fuel injection so no advantage for a carb.

http://www.dmcnews.com/Techsection/Bosch%20K-Jetronic%20Fuel%20Injection%20Manual%20-%20boschtech-12d.pdf
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jakoury256
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Posted: 3/24/2012 8:39:39 PM EST
Originally Posted By vbfg135:
I believe K-Jetronics series was mechanical fuel injection so no advantage for a carb.

http://www.dmcnews.com/Techsection/Bosch%20K-Jetronic%20Fuel%20Injection%20Manual%20-%20boschtech-12d.pdf


Yeah K-jet was mechanical. Used a big ass fuel distributer that was a nightmare to work on.

The only thing that some would consider an advantage of a carb is it's simplicity. No electronics and low fuel pressure
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BP03
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Posted: 3/24/2012 9:56:43 PM EST
Easy to work on I guess..No need for remapping and what not... But at the same time I know alot of guys who are well learned in fuel injection will say they are easy to work on as well..guess it depends
Barrelburner
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Posted: 3/24/2012 11:38:34 PM EST
Tell you what...I bought a carbed motorcycle not long ago, and it brought back all the memories of how carbed engines run before they warm up
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I'd drive all night just to get back home
desertw0lf
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Posted: 3/24/2012 11:42:17 PM EST
On bikes? Easier to tune for hot rodding, don't always have to go to a freakin Dyno.
t44e6
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Posted: 3/25/2012 4:38:41 AM EST
Originally Posted By fortuna:
Just curious, is there any besides simplicity and not needing a computer to control the fuel flow?


It is impossible to say without knowing the application.
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1iviper
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Posted: 3/25/2012 4:38:57 AM EST
in performance applications––- carb's

in a daily driver––- fuel injection
Quintin
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Posted: 3/25/2012 6:21:11 AM EST
No.

A carburetor is a precisely manufactured, complex device specifically designed to mix the incorrect amount of fuel with the incorrect amount of air at the incorrect time.

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Walkure
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Posted: 3/25/2012 6:50:10 AM EST
Originally Posted By BP03:
Easy to work on I guess.


This.

It is much easier to tune, troubleshoot, and tinker with carbs than with FI. (At least on your own without specialized electronic tools, that is.)

And when shit goes wrong with carbs, you can usually figure it out and fix it cheaply and easily with a part or two. When shit goes wrong with FI, you're generally going to be replacing entire assemblies or sub-assemblies instead of a couple of lone parts.
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slows2k
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Posted: 3/25/2012 7:11:08 AM EST
Originally Posted By Quintin:
No.

A carburetor is a precisely manufactured, complex device specifically designed to mix the incorrect amount of fuel with the incorrect amount of air at the incorrect time.

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This is the correct answer.
Krochus
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Posted: 3/25/2012 7:47:30 AM EST
Remember when an engine in just about any automobile was worn out at 100k


Yeah thank carburetors for that
Sniper_Wolfe
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Posted: 3/25/2012 9:01:43 AM EST
Originally Posted By Walkure:
Originally Posted By BP03:
Easy to work on I guess.


This.

It is much easier to tune, troubleshoot, and tinker with carbs than with FI. (At least on your own without specialized electronic tools, that is.)

And when shit goes wrong with carbs, you can usually figure it out and fix it cheaply and easily with a part or two. When shit goes wrong with FI, you're generally going to be replacing entire assemblies or sub-assemblies instead of a couple of lone parts.


Shit going wrong with carbs happens orders of magnitude more than shit going wrong with FI, though.
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akcaribouhunter
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Posted: 3/25/2012 9:41:56 AM EST
Engines with carbs are easier to get going in the real cold temps.
Especially with manual chokes.
Krochus
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Posted: 3/25/2012 10:20:37 AM EST
Originally Posted By Sniper_Wolfe:
Originally Posted By Walkure:
Originally Posted By BP03:
Easy to work on I guess.


This.

It is much easier to tune, troubleshoot, and tinker with carbs than with FI. (At least on your own without specialized electronic tools, that is.)

And when shit goes wrong with carbs, you can usually figure it out and fix it cheaply and easily with a part or two. When shit goes wrong with FI, you're generally going to be replacing entire assemblies or sub-assemblies instead of a couple of lone parts.


Shit going wrong with carbs happens orders of magnitude more than shit going wrong with FI, though.



QFT I've never heard of carburetors going anywhere near 200k on the original completely unserviced fuel delivery system. Efi does this all the time plus much much more.
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Posted: 3/25/2012 10:38:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/25/2012 10:39:33 AM EST by Chromekilla]
Originally Posted By Quintin:
No.

A carburetor is a precisely manufactured, complex device specifically designed to mix the incorrect amount of fuel with the incorrect amount of air at the incorrect time.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


I always thought that carbs were easier to work on. I had one on my 84 ford f250. It was brand new and I barely could dial it in. Forget jet changes. Carbs require a specialized set of experience, to include trial and error. I won't have another carbed vehicle if I have the choice, neither a gasoline rig, unless its a car or light truck.
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AssaultRifler
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Posted: 3/25/2012 11:51:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By BP03:
Easy to work on I guess..No need for remapping and what not... But at the same time I know alot of guys who are well learned in fuel injection will say they are easy to work on as well..guess it depends

In one sense yes, you don't have all the sensors, ECU, and other crap to deal with.

In another sense no, you've yards and yards of vacuum lines and then you have the carb itself. Try rebuilding one
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GTwannabe
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Posted: 3/25/2012 11:57:27 AM EST
Carbs suck... especially with today's crap ethanol gas.
I mean if this goes tits up...
Andrewh
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Posted: 3/25/2012 2:44:00 PM EST
carbs only have an advantage in a narrow window and cost.

in a specific altitude, specific humidity, specific ambient temp, a well tuned carb can out perform generic efi in both fuel economy, emissions and performance.

next day it rains or temp drops 1 degree and the efi wins.

cost is the only place it always wins.

a proper efi system will at a min run 2k for the associated stuff to run it.

carb can be put on and run for around 400.

you cannot tune a carb faster or easier than efi. it is just cheaper.

converted my 65 coronet to efi just because of how much of a pain it was to tune the carb engine.


the reason the carb engine doesn't last as long was due to fuel washing the cylinders of oil.

the 5.9 mag I pulled out of the yard with 80k miles on it still had the cross hatch in the cylinder bores.

whereas the 318 I pulled out of my car after 20k miles after the rebuild was already smooth.
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Posted: 3/25/2012 3:02:54 PM EST
Originally Posted By slows2k:
Originally Posted By Quintin:
No.

A carburetor is a precisely manufactured, complex device specifically designed to mix the incorrect amount of fuel with the incorrect amount of air at the incorrect time.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile



This is the correct answer.


not even correct.

Carbs:
easy/easier for the home mech to work on.
if you are at a fairly consistent altitude, carbs are as good as EFI

EFI:
better for big variations in altitude.

despite all the EFI vs. carbs, this is my my guess.

On an off road bike, I find it much easier to get the dirt out of a carb than injectors, plus no sensors to go fouling 100 miles from the nearest paved road.

so which is better? Depends on how/what/where you operate a vehicle


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Posted: 3/25/2012 3:04:37 PM EST
This, just changed out a set of o-ring injectors, PITA to get the fuel rail off. Carb rebuilding and jetting is an art. FI is all computers and sensors.

Originally Posted By 1iviper:
in performance applications––- carb's

in a daily driver––- fuel injection


Professional Troubleshooter
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Posted: 3/25/2012 3:05:59 PM EST
Originally Posted By Andrewh:
carbs only have an advantage in a narrow window and cost.

in a specific altitude, specific humidity, specific ambient temp, a well tuned carb can out perform generic efi in both fuel economy, emissions and performance.

next day it rains or temp drops 1 degree and the efi wins.

cost is the only place it always wins.

a proper efi system will at a min run 2k for the associated stuff to run it.

carb can be put on and run for around 400.

you cannot tune a carb faster or easier than efi. it is just cheaper.

converted my 65 coronet to efi just because of how much of a pain it was to tune the carb engine.


the reason the carb engine doesn't last as long was due to fuel washing the cylinders of oil.

the 5.9 mag I pulled out of the yard with 80k miles on it still had the cross hatch in the cylinder bores.

whereas the 318 I pulled out of my car after 20k miles after the rebuild was already smooth.


cars? i have no idea, I dont drive those death traps!

Bikes, I have never had rain cause any problems with ANYTHING carb'd.
Nor humidity.

I have had fuel cook out of the bowl in 100+ deg., flogging the shit out of an air cooled thumper. I looked at it as a time for ME to cool off
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Posted: 3/25/2012 4:15:14 PM EST
A carburetor is a pretty crude metering and mixing device compared to modern fuel injection.

The older TBI systems weren't much harder to troubleshoot (easier in some ways) than a carb.

However a properly tuned Quadrajet is probably the best carb ever made. I have seen them rival the performance and fuel economy of most TBI systems.

Fuel injection is really pretty trouble free. Most problems can be associated to bad wiring, bad vacuum hoses, etc.
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Posted: 3/25/2012 6:10:45 PM EST
Originally Posted By TruckinAR:
Originally Posted By slows2k:
Originally Posted By Quintin:
No.

A carburetor is a precisely manufactured, complex device specifically designed to mix the incorrect amount of fuel with the incorrect amount of air at the incorrect time.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile



This is the correct answer.


not even correct.

Carbs:
easy/easier for the home mech to work on.
if you are at a fairly consistent altitude, carbs are as good as EFI

EFI:
better for big variations in altitude.

despite all the EFI vs. carbs, this is my my guess.

On an off road bike, I find it much easier to get the dirt out of a carb than injectors, plus no sensors to go fouling 100 miles from the nearest paved road.

so which is better? Depends on how/what/where you operate a vehicle





The 2 guys that make a living repairing cars respectfully disagree.
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Posted: 3/25/2012 10:04:29 PM EST
Originally Posted By 1iviper:
in performance applications––- carb's

in a daily driver––- fuel injection


I think this is the winning post so far. I totally agree with this.


I will never go back to a four cylinder bike with four carbs again. It's fine when everything is clean and properly adjusted but it is a complete pain in the butt when there is any sort of problem. You also run a higher risk of having an issue because you have four sets of jets to clog, four sets of carb floats and needle valves that can leak, four sets of adjustment screws to adjust just right, two fuel petcocks that can leak (on my old bike at least), four carbs to keep in sync, etc... I personally would rather go back to point and condenser ignition then go back to having an old bike with four carbs again.

The other problem with cars with carb's is trying to find a decent mechanic that can still work on the carb and get good results. The last carb mechanic generation is in or almost in full retirement now. Almost every car mechanic technician now came from the EFI generation that is better at "Remove and Replace" then "Remove and Repair".

With the two above paragraphs being said, it takes a lot more money to adjust EFI then it is to adjust a carb. Want it to run a little richer then the stock lean setting? It only takes few bucks to get you a new set of jets. It takes a few hundred bucks to get you EFI programmer.
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Posted: 3/26/2012 5:02:54 AM EST
I still do a lot of carb work in the shop, including some really odd setups and I have to say that EFI is clearly better in most cases, but not all. Carbs do have their rightful place in the automotive hierarchy. There's something about a proper engine..say a nicely tuned Ponch 400 with either a Q-Jet -or for the more adventurous- a Tri-power setup that just wouldn't be right with EFI. The sound of the carbs violently gurgling down air and fuel as fast as mechanically possible is something to behold. I also agree with hobbsar, when it comes to carbs the Q-Jet is the most versatile and when properly tuned you can have great power when you really get on it..and decent fuel economy when you don't.

For those who live in places with extreme climate changes through the various seasons, EFI is always going to be your best bet for reliable starts.

Basically, I look at EFI almost the same way I look at Electronic Ignition systems vs. points/condensers. The electronic ignition is absolutely more reliable through a variety of climate and driving conditions, and also over a wider range of engine load and RPM's. EFI does the same thing for the most part.

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