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Posted: 8/27/2015 3:07:08 PM EDT
[#1]
Hell yes. If my "adviser" doesn't have any more knowledge than I do, and quite possibly less, why would I take (and even worse, pay for) his advice?
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Posted: 8/27/2015 3:39:39 PM EDT
[#2]
I voted yes - but with a caveat:
A college degree isn't the "be all end all", this from someone with a degree in Accounting (which involves plenty of Finance and Economics classes). I don't use an "adviser". I also don't believe I have any special gift of knowledge of the financial markets. I did the simple (to me at least) math and realized that it took a whole lot less time and was much more profitable to just "be the market". That is: buy low cost/ no load broad index funds. No adviser needed. Someone has to pay for that adviser's fancy office, house, his kid's private school education and that shiny car. I'm not going to be the one paying for it. |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 3:55:57 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I voted yes - but with a caveat: A college degree isn't the "be all end all", this from someone with a degree in Accounting (which involves plenty of Finance and Economics classes). I don't use an "adviser". I also don't believe I have any special gift of knowledge of the financial markets. I did the simple (to me at least) math and realized that it took a whole lot less time and was much more profitable to just "be the market". That is: buy low cost/ no load broad index funds. No adviser needed. Someone has to pay for that adviser's fancy office, house, his kid's private school education and that shiny car. I'm not going to be the one paying for it. Did you double major, because my accountant friends from college, didn't take many 400 level finance classes. |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 5:29:48 PM EDT
[#4]
I didn't know my last advisors education but he began talking about an account they had a 500k min balance and I was know where near it. It was the most unproductive meeting I was ever in.
No I make my own decisions and trade with the online interface |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 5:39:37 PM EDT
[#5]
Give me results and I care not for credentials.
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Posted: 8/28/2015 8:32:38 AM EDT
[#6]
Not important.
First, I have a finance degree. It's useless. Second, at age 18 I interned at a Merrill Lynch under an advisor who had only graduated high school. It was about this time that I learned what really matters is your advisor's approach. They all essentially know the same stuff, but you always have that advisor who thinks he's Ray Dalio and you get lack luster performance because this guy thinks he's got the next big win. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 8:53:44 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not important. First, I have a finance degree. It's useless. Second, at age 18 I interned at a Merrill Lynch under an advisor who had only graduated high school. It was about this time that I learned what really matters is your advisor's approach. They all essentially know the same stuff, but you always have that advisor who thinks he's Ray Dalio and you get lack luster performance because this guy thinks he's got the next big win. Why do you feel your degree is useless? |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 8:58:57 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Give me results and I care not for credentials. Concur. School trained economist are fettered and encumbered by the doctrine instilled into them. Unfortunately, most schools are based on Keynesian thought. Look where that got us today. I'd rather use someone with a demonstrated track record of sound performance. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 9:11:09 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did you double major, because my accountant friends from college, didn't take many 400 level finance classes. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I voted yes - but with a caveat: A college degree isn't the "be all end all", this from someone with a degree in Accounting (which involves plenty of Finance and Economics classes). I don't use an "adviser". I also don't believe I have any special gift of knowledge of the financial markets. I did the simple (to me at least) math and realized that it took a whole lot less time and was much more profitable to just "be the market". That is: buy low cost/ no load broad index funds. No adviser needed. Someone has to pay for that adviser's fancy office, house, his kid's private school education and that shiny car. I'm not going to be the one paying for it. Did you double major, because my accountant friends from college, didn't take many 400 level finance classes. I did CLEP for my econ classes, and only had a couple of finance classes, but intermediate accounting is VERY finance heavy. I did finance classes after having done intermediate accounting. Everyone else was groaning about finance, but I thought it was a breeze. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 5:03:03 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why do you feel your degree is useless? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Not important. First, I have a finance degree. It's useless. Second, at age 18 I interned at a Merrill Lynch under an advisor who had only graduated high school. It was about this time that I learned what really matters is your advisor's approach. They all essentially know the same stuff, but you always have that advisor who thinks he's Ray Dalio and you get lack luster performance because this guy thinks he's got the next big win. Why do you feel your degree is useless? You don't truly learn something until you practice it. A degree doesn't mean anything. A book can tell you something, but a student doesn't see the application. My point is that I'd take an advisor who never graduated high school, but has managed people's money successfully for forty years before I'd trust a kid with a degree from Wharton who hasn't experienced a single market cycle in the real world. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 5:51:23 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You don't truly learn something until you practice it. A degree doesn't mean anything. A book can tell you something, but a student doesn't see the application. My point is that I'd take an advisor who never graduated high school, but has managed people's money successfully for forty years before I'd trust a kid with a degree from Wharton who hasn't experienced a single market cycle in the real world. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Not important. First, I have a finance degree. It's useless. Second, at age 18 I interned at a Merrill Lynch under an advisor who had only graduated high school. It was about this time that I learned what really matters is your advisor's approach. They all essentially know the same stuff, but you always have that advisor who thinks he's Ray Dalio and you get lack luster performance because this guy thinks he's got the next big win. Why do you feel your degree is useless? You don't truly learn something until you practice it. A degree doesn't mean anything. A book can tell you something, but a student doesn't see the application. My point is that I'd take an advisor who never graduated high school, but has managed people's money successfully for forty years before I'd trust a kid with a degree from Wharton who hasn't experienced a single market cycle in the real world. I see what you mean, experience matters. If experience is similar, would you want the degreed person? FWIW, a degree is a pre req to become a CFP now. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 9:47:48 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I see what you mean, experience matters. If experience is similar, would you want the degreed person? FWIW, a degree is a pre req to become a CFP now. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Not important. First, I have a finance degree. It's useless. Second, at age 18 I interned at a Merrill Lynch under an advisor who had only graduated high school. It was about this time that I learned what really matters is your advisor's approach. They all essentially know the same stuff, but you always have that advisor who thinks he's Ray Dalio and you get lack luster performance because this guy thinks he's got the next big win. Why do you feel your degree is useless? You don't truly learn something until you practice it. A degree doesn't mean anything. A book can tell you something, but a student doesn't see the application. My point is that I'd take an advisor who never graduated high school, but has managed people's money successfully for forty years before I'd trust a kid with a degree from Wharton who hasn't experienced a single market cycle in the real world. I see what you mean, experience matters. If experience is similar, would you want the degreed person? FWIW, a degree is a pre req to become a CFP now. It's not a huge factor in my decision. I don't know where my financial advisor went to school or if he even graduated college. I'm fairly certain he did, but maybe it's just my expectation that he did. I vetted financial advisors based on their integrity (no bull shitting me), their philosophies on investing (my advisor has some different views but he can justify it, otherwise I liked what he said), and finally their personality, do I like them, did they sell me. Face it, the job of your basic financial advisor is sales and customer relations. Do you do your job well? Can you sell me on the fact that you do your job well? |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 9:21:05 AM EDT
[#13]
There was this guy, he was never my financial advisor, but he could have been. He was to some friends of mine, (he is now retired). My friends liked him, and his performance. I am not too sure about his educational background. I do know that prior to working in finance he was mowing yards.
I recently met his successor, at a work sponsored retirement meeting. I don't know his background either. I do know that I was underwhelmed, and that most of my co-workers thought even less of him. I consider myself to be my financial advisor. Also, my tax advisor, (the IRS hates this, BTW). So, to answer the original question; It wouldn't bother me at all if an advisor had worked other jobs, I would consider that a positive. As far as having a degree in economics/finance, no, I wouldn't consider that a requirement. Depending upon the person, I might even consider it a negative. They call economics the dismal science. I wouldn't call finance a science, I think of it as an art. Science can be taught, I don't believe that art can. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 9:27:57 AM EDT
[#14]
For me it all boils down to track record over a period of some bull and bear markets. I have stopped using advisors. I have been in the market for almost thirty years a nd have decided to only buy boring companies that pay a dividend instead of the next big thing.
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Posted: 8/30/2015 9:37:49 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For me it all boils down to track record over a period of some bull and bear markets. I have stopped using advisors. I have been in the market for almost thirty years a nd have decided to only buy boring companies that pay a dividend instead of the next big thing. This approach will work. If given the choice between some one who has the best educational credentials, but no experience, and some one who has no educational credentials, but lots of experience, I would choose experience every time. Of course, my educational credentials are nil, and my experience covers decades, so I consider it natural that I think that way. |
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Posted: 8/31/2015 4:50:06 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Give me results and I care not for credentials. That sounds great, but the problem with that is 98% of the public wouldn't be able to pick a "good" fund manager vs. "bad". |
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Posted: 8/31/2015 4:54:30 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That sounds great, but the problem with that is 98% of the public wouldn't be able to pick a "good" fund manager vs. "bad". Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Give me results and I care not for credentials. That sounds great, but the problem with that is 98% of the public wouldn't be able to pick a "good" fund manager vs. "bad". true, I think arf,com is over represented in financial experts. 
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Posted: 9/1/2015 9:51:36 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
true, I think arf,com is over represented in financial experts. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Give me results and I care not for credentials. That sounds great, but the problem with that is 98% of the public wouldn't be able to pick a "good" fund manager vs. "bad". true, I think arf,com is over represented in financial experts. http://fortune.com/2015/02/03/berkshires-buffett-adds-to-his-lead-in-1-million-bet-with-hedge-fund/ Seven years into a 10-year performance wager, the Berkshire Hathaway CEO is winning easily.
Results are in for the seventh year of what’s sometimes called The Million-Dollar Bet—Warren Buffett’s 10-year wager that the S&P 500 would outperform a sampling of hedge funds—and, for now at least, it’s looking like a rout for the CEO of Berkshire Hathaway BRK-B . Under the terms of the wager, Buffett is betting (with his own money, not Berkshire’s) on the stock market performance of an S&P 500 index fund while Protégé Partners, a New York money manager, is banking on five funds of hedge funds (the names of which have never been publicly disclosed) that Protégé carefully picked at the outset. Through the seven years, Vanguard’s 500 index fund, as represented by its Admiral shares, is up 63.5%. That’s the portfolio carrying Buffett’s colors. Protégé’s five hedge funds of funds are, on the average—the marker the bet uses—up an estimated 19.6%. (The “estimated” takes into account that not all of the five funds have final figures for 2014). ... continues at link above ... http://www.people.hbs.edu/ptufano/bbenefits_Nov2004.pdf Assessing the Costs and Benefits of Brokers in the Mutual Fund Industry Daniel Bergstresser Harvard Business School John M.R. Chalmers University of Oregon Peter Tufano Harvard Business School and NBER Abstract Many investors purchase their mutual funds through intermediated channels, engaging and paying brokers or financial advisors for fund selection and advice. We analyze five possible benefits to consumers of brokered fund distribution: (a) Assistance selecting funds that are harder to find or harder to evaluate; (b) Access to funds with lower costs excluding distribution costs; (c) Access to higher performing funds; (d) superior asset allocation, and (e) Attenuation of behavioral investor biases. Along these dimensions, we find it difficult to identify the tangible benefits delivered by brokers. While brokerage customers are directed toward funds that are harder to find and evaluate, they pay substantially higher fees and the funds they buy have lower risk-adjusted returns than directly-placed funds. Brokered funds exhibit no better skill at asset allocation. Furthermore, funds sold through brokers demonstrate more performance sensitivity than funds sold through the direct channel. While the costs of brokers’ services are relatively clear, their benefits are not easily captured by the tangible measures explored in this paper. ... continues at link above ... ar-jedi ar-jedi |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 10:58:15 PM EDT
[#19]
Considering what hedge funds do, I am not surprised they underperformed on a total return basis.
I think I have said it before, if the only thing you intend to do is buy and hold using modern portfolio theory with mutual funds then do it yourself. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 12:20:53 AM EDT
[#20]
Ar Jedi, that study you published is flawed from the get go, assuming it's used solely to say advisors are useless. They state that they use no actual account data and do not take behavioral finance into account.
I am sure you very very disciplined but not every one has that much resolve when the news is bad. Especially, when they are using their money to love off of. But I will agree that buying all mutual funds in a wrap account isn't exactly adding a lot of value. |
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Posted: 9/5/2015 5:53:28 AM EDT
[#21]
I am sure you very very disciplined but not every one has that much resolve when the news is bad. Especially, when they are using their money to love off of.
Using your money to love off of is the surest way to financial ruin. It can be a lot of fun, though. |
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Posted: 9/5/2015 6:08:45 AM EDT
[#22]
My first experience with an "advisor," nearly 20 years ago now, quickly taught me that the title was often nothing more than a fancy term for "salesman." The term, without context, is meaningless to me.
Early this year I moved about 100k into a professionally managed account... while it hasn't done any better than some of my less managed funds, it has done better than my own managed stock portfolio of "play money" (mainly due to two stocks that I keep throwing good money at, convincing myself it I had found the bottom). It will be interesting for me to compare things across the board as the years go on. |
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Posted: 9/5/2015 9:56:05 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Using your money to love off of is the surest way to financial ruin. It can be a lot of fun, though. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am sure you very very disciplined but not every one has that much resolve when the news is bad. Especially, when they are using their money to love off of.
Using your money to love off of is the surest way to financial ruin. It can be a lot of fun, though.
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Posted: 9/5/2015 9:59:29 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My first experience with an "advisor," nearly 20 years ago now, quickly taught me that the title was often nothing more than a fancy term for "salesman." The term, without context, is meaningless to me. Early this year I moved about 100k into a professionally managed account... while it hasn't done any better than some of my less managed funds, it has done better than my own managed stock portfolio of "play money" (mainly due to two stocks that I keep throwing good money at, convincing myself it I had found the bottom). It will be interesting for me to compare things across the board as the years go on. That's also a big problem with the industry. They hire anyone with a pulse and just throw it all on a wall at see what will stick. Not going to mention the firm, they had a mission to pretty much double their advisors in 10 years. You aren't going to get there by not hiring a lot of unexperienced people. |
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Posted: 9/13/2015 5:38:10 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You don't truly learn something until you practice it. A degree doesn't mean anything. A book can tell you something, but a student doesn't see the application. My point is that I'd take an advisor who never graduated high school, but has managed people's money successfully for forty years before I'd trust a kid with a degree from Wharton who hasn't experienced a single market cycle in the real world. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Not important. First, I have a finance degree. It's useless. Second, at age 18 I interned at a Merrill Lynch under an advisor who had only graduated high school. It was about this time that I learned what really matters is your advisor's approach. They all essentially know the same stuff, but you always have that advisor who thinks he's Ray Dalio and you get lack luster performance because this guy thinks he's got the next big win. Why do you feel your degree is useless? You don't truly learn something until you practice it. A degree doesn't mean anything. A book can tell you something, but a student doesn't see the application. My point is that I'd take an advisor who never graduated high school, but has managed people's money successfully for forty years before I'd trust a kid with a degree from Wharton who hasn't experienced a single market cycle in the real world. kinda have to go with this.  Experience and history mean more to me than an education.
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Posted: 9/13/2015 11:30:33 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
kinda have to go with this. Experience and history mean more to me than an education.Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Not important. First, I have a finance degree. It's useless. Second, at age 18 I interned at a Merrill Lynch under an advisor who had only graduated high school. It was about this time that I learned what really matters is your advisor's approach. They all essentially know the same stuff, but you always have that advisor who thinks he's Ray Dalio and you get lack luster performance because this guy thinks he's got the next big win. Why do you feel your degree is useless? You don't truly learn something until you practice it. A degree doesn't mean anything. A book can tell you something, but a student doesn't see the application. My point is that I'd take an advisor who never graduated high school, but has managed people's money successfully for forty years before I'd trust a kid with a degree from Wharton who hasn't experienced a single market cycle in the real world. kinda have to go with this. Experience and history mean more to me than an education.Experience in financial advising only tells you what happened since you've been in the biz. Education should give you a broader perspective and appreciation for history and markets in general. |
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Posted: 9/13/2015 12:45:27 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Experience in financial advising only tells you what happened since you've been in the biz. Education should give you a broader perspective and appreciation for history and markets in general. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Not important. First, I have a finance degree. It's useless. Second, at age 18 I interned at a Merrill Lynch under an advisor who had only graduated high school. It was about this time that I learned what really matters is your advisor's approach. They all essentially know the same stuff, but you always have that advisor who thinks he's Ray Dalio and you get lack luster performance because this guy thinks he's got the next big win. Why do you feel your degree is useless? You don't truly learn something until you practice it. A degree doesn't mean anything. A book can tell you something, but a student doesn't see the application. My point is that I'd take an advisor who never graduated high school, but has managed people's money successfully for forty years before I'd trust a kid with a degree from Wharton who hasn't experienced a single market cycle in the real world. kinda have to go with this. Experience and history mean more to me than an education.Experience in financial advising only tells you what happened since you've been in the biz. Education should give you a broader perspective and appreciation for history and markets in general. Good post, I really like hearing the replies. Fwiw, your adviser may sounds like they know what they are talking about but normally it's just regurgitation they got from the home office. I once had a old vet in the industry tell me you never hurt anyone selling them a muni bond. 
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Posted: 9/13/2015 1:49:19 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good post, I really like hearing the replies. Fwiw, your adviser may sounds like they know what they are talking about but normally it's just regurgitation they got from the home office. I once had a old vet in the industry tell me you never hurt anyone selling them a muni bond. I got a payout from a class action suit for an oppenhimer municipal bond fund that bombed in 08. It is what fund the ameriprise rep was pushing at the time. she quit not long after that |
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Posted: 9/13/2015 1:54:32 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hell yes. If my "adviser" doesn't have any more knowledge than I do, and quite possibly less, why would I take (and even worse, pay for) his advice? Yes. Experience in the field means more to me. |
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