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Posted: 2/3/2015 10:02:15 PM EDT
Currently I'm loading 168 AMAX and getting good results at closer ranges but I would like to try a projectile with better wind bucking ability and better transonic performance.  Both of these Hornady bullets are cheaper than the Sierra/Berger options, so I'm pretty set on giving one of these a try.  Which one would you choose and why?  I'll be loading for my Remington 700 LTR in .308 with a 1:12 twist 20" barrel.  

The HPBT has significantly higher BC, but that doesn't necessarily translate to better transonic performance.  Is there any conceivable reason to go with the AMAX instead of the HPBT (like better boat tail angle for transonic stability or something)?  I'm leaning toward the HPBT for the extra BC but if there's any argument for the AMAX, I'd love to hear it.
Link Posted: 2/4/2015 1:23:51 PM EDT
[#1]
You should buy a box of each and see which bullet your rifle prefers.

Both of Hornady's 178s get very good marks, so you're not going to be short-changing yourself.

Also, Hornady has been known to inflate their BC numbers, so take them with a grain of salt and figure out your own tables.

Chris
Link Posted: 2/4/2015 4:31:40 PM EDT
[#2]
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Originally Posted By ChrisGarrett:
You should buy a box of each and see which bullet your rifle prefers.

Both of Hornady's 178s get very good marks, so you're not going to be short-changing yourself.

Also, Hornady has been known to inflate their BC numbers, so take them with a grain of salt and figure out your own tables.

Chris
View Quote


I just got the HPBT since they have a higher BC.  Even if it's inflated, is still probably higher in relation to the AMAX.  Still curious about anyone's experiences with both projectiles though.  
Link Posted: 2/7/2015 9:21:31 AM EDT
[#3]
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Originally Posted By weaverftw:


I just got the HPBT since they have a higher BC.  Even if it's inflated, is still probably higher in relation to the AMAX.  Still curious about anyone's experiences with both projectiles though.  
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Originally Posted By weaverftw:
Originally Posted By ChrisGarrett:
You should buy a box of each and see which bullet your rifle prefers.

Both of Hornady's 178s get very good marks, so you're not going to be short-changing yourself.

Also, Hornady has been known to inflate their BC numbers, so take them with a grain of salt and figure out your own tables.

Chris


I just got the HPBT since they have a higher BC.  Even if it's inflated, is still probably higher in relation to the AMAX.  Still curious about anyone's experiences with both projectiles though.  


I am no expert but even if you are right I think you want to stick to facts or published data, don't start making assumptions  or you will create at the very least a lot of extra work for your self or problems.

Link Posted: 2/10/2015 8:28:04 PM EDT
[#4]
As said above, buy a box of each and do some testing. I cant ever find the BTHP so I always go AMAX. I get great results from the 178's and I am sure you will too.
Link Posted: 2/14/2015 4:55:54 PM EDT
[#5]
Link Posted: 2/14/2015 5:06:21 PM EDT
[#6]
This thread is relevant to your interests.











OK, guys...check it out. I just got in from a 16-hour day at the range and at the reloading bench.



First a big THANK YOU to everyone who has helped up to this point - and a special thanks to AR15barrels who put the bug in my ear about tuning at 400 for vertical and more-or-less ignoring the wind for the moment. That was the single best piece of advice that I have listened to in a long time. And the next best goes to whoever suggested trying the 178gr HPBT. Holy shit, that's not just a little different from the AMAX, it's a LOT different. Third best was quit being a pussy and push that thing a little. What I found out was that loads that would probably smoke primers in my gun with the AMAX yielded completely normal-looking primers and case heads with the HPBT, and will leave me enough velocity at 1000 to actually get to 1200 supersonically.



Left the house this morning and I picked up a couple of hundred 178 HPBTs on the way out to the farm just to give them a spin, but not having read much about them I didn't think they'd be much different from the AMAX. My intent was to shoot my then-current best load (so I thought) at 400 to check out its vertical dispersion. On the way out, I loaded up 5 HPBTs using the same data (43.0 of Varget) and went outside to the range and fired ten rounds at 400. Meh. 5" and a little bit of change. No good. So, says I to myself, I'm going to start pouring on the throttle and see what happens. I start going up in .5gr increments watching for pressure signs, and left the chronograph in the box for now.



As I kept increasing my charge, a funny thing kept happening. The vertical ES kept shrinking....and shrinking...and shrinking...I started going up in .2 increments now....and shrinking.....then BOOM it opened back up again. Back down to the load giving the smallest vertical ES (these were 5 round groups), and it does it again - 1.741". I look at the primers and cases, and they look exactly the same as they did at 43.0 - no flattening, just the slight cratering I was experiencing before, no ejector rub marks (though those look different in an FN, because it's a slot rather than a plunger). YGBSM, I think to myself.



So I run it back to 100 to chronograph it - and I get a .133" 5-round group, and a velocity in the believable range for the charge, I'm just amazed at the lack of pressure signs, especially since it's 95 degrees and bright/sunny. I'm pushing this 178gr HPBT to 2730 with no pressure signs. Now I'm curious, and I look up the BC - according to Hornady it's .530 (again, holy shit) which if BulletFlight isn't completely dicked up means that it should arrive at 1000 traveling 1400fps, taking 9.3mrad of elevation to get from 100 to 1000. For ****in' real?



I go inside and start processing brass, and I load 5 rounds of the best load in unfired brass to shoot at dusk when the wind drops off. I went out at 2100 and there was still some 1-4 variable winds, but I figured I'd take a whack at it anyway.



I fire off five quick shots and race down the levee to pull the target.



Result: Vertical ES of 1.189", and a horizontal spread of 3.29".



SOLD to the man with the green FN!



The winning load:



Hornady 178gr HPBT

New Lapua brass

New CCI BR-2 primer

45.9gr Varget

COAL base to ogive 3.133" using Sinclair ogive tool

Loaded round neck OD .337"



Loaded on a Redding T-7 with Redding standard dies, charges weighed with a PACT combo scale/dispenser. I threw back anything that wasn't dead nuts on 45.9gr.



Avg. MV 2730fps, and I no longer trust the ES reading on my chronograph, so I'm not going to give it. I will say, however, that 2.1 mils of elevation indicated by BulletFlight to get to 400 from 100 was dead-nuts on the money, so I'm going to guess the velocity is correct.



Gun is a 24" barreled FN A3G, 1:12 CL barrel.



I spent the last two and a half hours loading 100 of them for the match next weekend. Hand weighed each charge, etc.etc. The only question I have now is that the Redding seating die seems to be leaving some kind of circumferential mark on the ogive - do I need some kind of special VLD seating stem for these bullets? The AMAX never has any marks. They don't seem to affect accuracy, at least not at the level I'm operating at, but I can't imagine they're adding anything.

Last edited by QuietShootr; 06-17-12 at 14:23.






Link Posted: 2/14/2015 5:22:58 PM EDT
[#7]
Link Posted: 2/17/2015 9:33:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: ZachTA] [#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Rob01:
I would warn anyone looking to use either bullet to NOT start near 45.9grns of Varget especially with Lapua brass. The Hodgdon listed max if 45grns and compressed. I would start around the 43grn mark and work up unless using LC brass then start around 42grns. Most find a load between 43.5 and 44.5grns of Varget. My load in Hornady brass is 44.2grns and it gives me around 2690fps from a 20" barrel. From my 22" barrel it's at 2730fps.

The rings on his bullets were probably from compressing the powder as that is a stout load. A friend also had that problem when seating a bullet deep into a case due to a short lead in his chamber.
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This is the exact info I was looking for

I have one question though, I fully understand that Priv-Partison ammo, even in there Match 175gr ammo will only net 1 to 2mao @ 100yds size grouping, but I am curious if I pull bullets, seperate them by actual weight and re scale the powder charge if I could improve the accuracy enough to use for steel plates at 300yds?
Link Posted: 2/17/2015 10:33:39 AM EDT
[#9]
Link Posted: 2/17/2015 10:47:46 AM EDT
[#10]
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Originally Posted By Rob01:
Best answer to that is maybe LOL Sorry but it's got a lot of variables going there with brass, bullets and powder. Give it a try and see. Might be worth the time but might not.
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I have about 30 boxes of the Hornady 178gr. But im just trying to find a cheaper close round for hitting steel targets and such, i wouldnt be opposed to taking the powder and bullets and loading them into my LC casings to see if theres an improvement at $16 a box its to cheap not to try haha
Link Posted: 2/17/2015 11:45:17 AM EDT
[#11]
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Originally Posted By ZachTA:


I have about 30 boxes of the Hornady 178gr. But im just trying to find a cheaper close round for hitting steel targets and such, i wouldnt be opposed to taking the powder and bullets and loading them into my LC casings to see if theres an improvement at $16 a box its to cheap not to try haha
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Originally Posted By ZachTA:
Originally Posted By Rob01:
Best answer to that is maybe LOL Sorry but it's got a lot of variables going there with brass, bullets and powder. Give it a try and see. Might be worth the time but might not.


I have about 30 boxes of the Hornady 178gr. But im just trying to find a cheaper close round for hitting steel targets and such, i wouldnt be opposed to taking the powder and bullets and loading them into my LC casings to see if theres an improvement at $16 a box its to cheap not to try haha


You have 30 boxes of 178gr bullets, or ammo?

'Mexican match' is time consuming as Rob says above and not stuff that you'd take to a match, even if done carefully.  How big are your steel targets at 300 yds?  Shouldn't be hard to get a 2-3 MOA round set up with surplus pull-down powders and/or pulled bullets.

Chris
Link Posted: 2/17/2015 12:21:06 PM EDT
[#12]
What's the listed bc of the amax?

Txl
Link Posted: 2/17/2015 12:32:44 PM EDT
[#13]
Link Posted: 2/17/2015 2:13:44 PM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ChrisGarrett:



You have 30 boxes of 178gr bullets, or ammo?

'Mexican match' is time consuming as Rob says above and not stuff that you'd take to a match, even if done carefully.  How big are your steel targets at 300 yds?  Shouldn't be hard to get a 2-3 MOA round set up with surplus pull-down powders and/or pulled bullets.

Chris
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Originally Posted By ChrisGarrett:
Originally Posted By ZachTA:
Originally Posted By Rob01:
Best answer to that is maybe LOL Sorry but it's got a lot of variables going there with brass, bullets and powder. Give it a try and see. Might be worth the time but might not.


I have about 30 boxes of the Hornady 178gr. But im just trying to find a cheaper close round for hitting steel targets and such, i wouldnt be opposed to taking the powder and bullets and loading them into my LC casings to see if theres an improvement at $16 a box its to cheap not to try haha



You have 30 boxes of 178gr bullets, or ammo?

'Mexican match' is time consuming as Rob says above and not stuff that you'd take to a match, even if done carefully.  How big are your steel targets at 300 yds?  Shouldn't be hard to get a 2-3 MOA round set up with surplus pull-down powders and/or pulled bullets.

Chris


Ammo, and i have no plans to shoot match with it, i just want better cheap ammo for practice, that is mildly accurate. And im shooting either 10" plates or a 66% IPSC torso target
Link Posted: 3/1/2015 4:03:14 PM EDT
[#15]
Anyone shoot this bullet barrel out of a 1:12 ?
Link Posted: 3/1/2015 4:30:26 PM EDT
[#16]
Link Posted: 3/1/2015 6:41:49 PM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Rob01:
They will work fine from a true 12 twist.
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Thanks
Link Posted: 3/21/2015 9:33:56 PM EDT
[#18]
Good info here.  I'm about to start working up a tuned .308 loading using 178 HPBTs, Winchester brass, Fed 210Ms, and Varget.  I've been using 178 AMAXs out to 700 on steel plates to decent effect - these should be better.  Due to the shape of the bullet they need to be loaded really long to get close to the lands - longer than mag length in my FN SPR A1.

Spooky
Link Posted: 4/25/2015 10:02:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Ruin] [#19]
After Rob01 pushed me to the 178 AMAX I've been a believer for years now.

I'm loading the 178 AMAX into LC LR brass, 210M primers, and a 43.5 grain charge of Varget. I get about 2675 fps from a 24" rock creek barrel.
Link Posted: 9/3/2016 7:51:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: QCB] [#20]
Anyone using the 178 ELD or ELD match with Varget?

I am shooting a 20 inch Rem 40 X with Badger Creek bottom metal and AI magazine so am llimited to about 2.86 OCL.
Link Posted: 10/4/2016 1:13:28 AM EDT
[#21]
Rob01,

Have you tired pointing the 178 HPBT?
Link Posted: 10/4/2016 7:25:04 AM EDT
[#22]
Link Posted: 10/4/2016 7:41:18 AM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By QCB:
Anyone using the 178 ELD or ELD match with Varget?

I am shooting a 20 inch Rem 40 X with Badger Creek bottom metal and AI magazine so am llimited to about 2.86 OCL.
View Quote

Thats all I use is varget for my 308. Am really enjoying the 178 ELD-X that hornady came out with. Shooting these out of my Savage 10T 308 w/ 24 inch bull barrel and 5R rifling. Using 43.9 gr of varget w/ 2720 fps according to my chrono. Loading them at 2.800. Tried close to lands but shot better at 2.800.
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