I sort of am calling out AR10 dudes.  Because there is a lot of love lately for them.  I really don't know anything about them but some of you all act like they can shoot 1 hole groups at 200 yards just using the mag for monopod.    OK, maybe nobody has claimed that, but sometimes there is just a lot of "hype" around a gun and I'm always curious if it's BS or not.  Maybe it deserves the rep.  So I'm going to post my groups and range report, and you all can comment on how much it sucks and how much better your AR10 can shoot.  

So, I shot my M1A loaded today at 50 and 100 to get it zero'd.  The reason those groups aren't POI / POA is because I still had to adjust.  But wanted to get a feel for the accuracy.  I personally always had pretty good accuracy with it.  And I'm using the not so great Gen III Springy mount, some Leupold rings and a Leupold VX-II 3-9.  

After shooting it today, I remember why I mostly shoot AR's...  LOL.  I'm such a wuss.  I should see if I can get a rubber buttpad for it.  

I'm pretty sure I would tighten those groups up if I was on the concrete, prone, with some sandbags.  But it was at the end of my range session today, I'm getting older and didn't want to work that hard.  Maybe next time.











I'm not trying to  start a fight.  I really am curious how AR10's truly stack up.  Obviously this model is a little accurized, (better barrel than a normal ole USGI and lighter trigger).  But that's pretty much it.  No bedding.

You shoot very well and have an accurate rifle.  I don't have an AR10 but the PSA copy. With good ammo it will group like that.

Perhaps you could send me a case of that Portuguese ammo to confirm.

Nice
24 or 20 inch bbl?
Looks like a 20

Looks more like a 21".

OP, come back in 1000 or 1500 rounds and tell us what your groups, and your bedding look like.

M1A's (or M14 clones) aren't that hard to get shooting good, they are just hard to keep shooting good.  

(Owner of 2 M1A Supermatches and one all out build by Ted Brown)(and a dozen other M14 type)

It's got at least that many rounds through it.  And stayed consistent, from what I can tell.  Although admittedly, I changed stocks from the original wood one to a synth one.  Maybe the synth one would loosen up after time.  But this gun has always shot like this and maybe a hair better a few times.  

I gotta check the log as to how many rounds it has.  And I get your point.  But I'm not sure it's as bad as some make it out to be.  Now, if I had 5k through it, I might be cursing it, so I hear ya.  But It would be interesting to hear if people have that many through their AR10's and if they degrade in any way, for any reason.

It's kind of smokey.  But it shoots real good.  

You all, a standard M1A length barrel is 22", if my memory serves me correctly.  The loaded is standard length, but medium weight under the handguard.

My little experience with the wooden autoloading M-rifles (as-issued and accurized) - when everything is pretty new and snug, 1.5 MOA is about average with a standard HP load.



Not gnat's ass, but not quite a bullet sprayer.

Yeah, no arguments here.  It will groups smaller at times, obviously.   But I think on average that's about what it does for me.  But to be honest, I think if I went prone with bags (because I was definitely moving slightly at times on the bench.  It wasn't as rock solid as I've gotten prone with bags) and handloaded, I think it could probably be more of a MOA or less gun, consistently.  

Again, I have no arguments about how long the bedding will last.  But if you had to tighten it up at times after lots of shooting, I don't really see that being a big issue.  Aren't most precision bolt guns bedded in some way?  I like the idea of the metal chassis for this reason, but danged if they're not real expensive.  And I just like a traditional type stock.  But a metal bedding would probably be less likely to stretch all that much.  Obviously.

I have M1As and a LaRue PredaTOBR (AR10) and my LaRue will outshoot my M1A all day, everyday.  Not that the M1A is bad, but the design adds some accuracy challenges if you want to shoot bug holes. Here's a suppressed group from the LaRue using FGGMs at 100y.  I understand some purists will argue the 3-shot versus 5-shot, but this is what it will do when I do my part.



ETA:  Here's a pic of my M1A in a JAE chassis, which tightened this rifle by 1/2 MOA.

It's interesting to note that you've got 3 rounds touching.  In my experience any autoloader doesn't do that well.  First shot usually is pulled out of the rest of the group.  And yeah, I'd have to take your word that the AR is that much better.  Because (1) 3 shot group of your .308 AR isn't what I'd call overwhelming evidence that they shoot better.  That is a nice tiny little group, but I'm with most people, it's gotta be 5 or 10 to really get a feel for it.  But having said that, even if it shoots like that with 3 shots it's gotta have something going for it.    But it's not like you posted a whole bunch of them.  I've never really spent much time around dudes with AR10's.  Last guy I saw shooting one was with handloads and he was all frustrated with it.  So.....  that's about my first hand experience.  It still was shooting pretty small groups, but not like sub moa.

Your M1A is nice.

Not every group was that tight, but as I said, it will do it's part if I do mine.  I took your question to be how well the AR platform shoots versus the M1A, not necessarily how well the shooter performs, be it 3 or 5 shot groups. If you cruise the M1A forums you'll note that 1.5MOA is pretty common and it tightens from there depending on what you do to the rifle; chassis versus stock, bedding, NM barrel, unitized gas system, TiN gas piston, etc., etc.  The AR10 simply has less design influencing accuracy and some AR10 rifles will shoot better than others, as they say, your mileage will vary.

Some other groups, same outing:  







Horizontal stringing - me not doing my part:



A different type of exercise at 100y:



First shots from this rifle to dial it in (suppressed), including a cold bore, 50y:

That's about what you can expect from a good one.  I spent a bit of time on M21s we had in 2 of my Scout Sniper Platoons, as well as a few NM guns over the years.

Here's what 4 different loads look like from my GAP .260 Rem AR10, 5rd groups:






That was just load development, seeing what would work with the 139gr Scenar.

If I was going to stay stubbornly married to the M14, I would pillar bed on a dual-lug receiver.  I like the feel and handling of a rack-grade M14 with the light barrel, especially shooting positions, but I've never liked it enough to own one, probably never will.

Great shooting guys.  

LRRPF52, I'm pretty sure handloading would help mine too.  But I don't yet.  But I hear what you're saying that it's not a tailored load.  I also think a standard USGI set up in the M1A / M14 feels really good.   With the skinny barrel.  

One thing is for sure, I doubt I'm going to sell this thing to get an AR10.  You always lose.  And I like the retro feel of it.  I wouldn't mind finding a better mount though.  And a rubber buttpad.  And handload some rounds that it likes.  

All of these groups were shot with a 16" AR-10 pattern .308 rifle @ 100 yards by me.... I do this for a living, so I get to shoot a lot though. I mostly use a Nightforce ATACR-F1  25x with an H-59 Reticle. I shoot 5 shot groups with these rifles.


Ryan

Anyone have target pictures of a fresh M1A versus when it works loose?

You make some good points as my AR10 thrives on 168gr FGGMs while my M1A prefers a heavier bullet.

LRRPF52: I have a .260 AR on order so I also appreciate the load data as I may start to handload to see what I can get out of that rifle.

I have an m1a loaded and use the casm mount . It is a very solid mount but you do have to remove the rear sight since it bolts in the housing , It also has some cant to it so you do gain some elevation . Mine likes 168 grain hornady amax  , I have got some .7-.85 inch groups but Im not going to say its sub moa all day because I cant shoot that good and even a blind hog finds an acorn every now and then . so far I am averaging around 1.35 moa  . you can get a recoil pad from springfield that replaces the metal one . mine come with it and its pretty nice .

1. Keep the M1A

2. save up and buy an AR10 also

3.  WIN

Great shooting.  Am I reading that correctly, you're using a 25 power scope?  My goodness.  Nice rig!!!!

I'm interested in hearing and seeing this too. The AR-1X fans (I'm one of them too, nobody get upset) say this all the time but I've never seen the evidence to support it.

I know match M1A/M14 shooters hsd a good bit of work to do to keep their rifles up to match spec, but how long did they honestly last? How many rounds before their groups started opening up?

I fully appreciate the AR system, but is the M1A/m14 really that hard to keep accurate?

FWIW, I believe the short answer is yes.  The standard M1A starts as a 1.5MOA rifle out of the box and it will stay that way unless you tweak it and your loads. The rifle suffers from barrel whip and if there is any stress on the barrel you won't get a consistent return to zero.  Pinch points on the stock / receiver affect accuracy, if the stock is loose to the receiver accuracy suffers; if the gas systems is loose or doesn't time right, the front band isn't tweaked and lubed or the gas piston is not NM quality, you have carbon build up, etc., you get accuracy issues. You end up chasing your tail or you put some additional money into accuracy solutions to make it a sub 1MOA rifle. Don't get me wrong, I love my M1As / M14s but they are a challenge to shoot with consistency and I accept them as an inherently less accurate rifle compared to a high quality AR10.  

As to how long before the groups start to open, I can't say as I only put a few hundred rounds out a year, but from reading the forums, high power M1A shooters who have invested in lugged receivers, heavier barrels, bedding, unitized gas systems, etc., general shoot multiple seasons before they see accuracy issues; they simply clean the barrel / receiver and lube as needed without removing from the bedded stock. The 7.62 also isn't a throat burner like some of the higher speed rounds, so you can get thousands of rounds from a good barrel.

Nice good shooting. How do you like the H59? I have one that I don't have much time with, the more I spend with it the more I'm liking it so far.

I've had an SAI M1A, and a TRW M14NM.  (State RPA issued match gun I shot for years in high school.)  I love the nostalgic feel and look of the M14 pattern rifles, but after screweing around with them for years, I finally realized that the AR platform is just better.  



The SAI M1A




Typical Iron sighted groups using a sling.  Not a bagged rest.  It was pretty easy to tell when the bedding went as the groups would open up, and the zeros would shift and wander.  

Started out as an SAI loaded.  2 years, and almost $3k MORE later, I had a sub MOA gun.  (So long as I was up to it. . . )  Steel bedded, McMillan Stock, Kreiger Heavy NM barrel, unitized gas cylinder, the works.  
Shot like it had eyes.  Keeping it that way was time consuming and expensive.  Steel bedding lasted longer than the normal glass bedding, but it still needed a refresh every 1k-1.5k rounds to keep it shooting well.  Cleaning the rifle without pulling it from the stock sucked.  (Fun repair tip - you can replace the ejector and extractor without pulling the action from the stock by using a punch and a 30-06 case)  Carbon buildup could cause accuracy issues if not carefully cleaned out, or cause malfunctions.  It just needed a lot more time and effort and attention to detail to keep it shooting like that.

Trying to mount a scope on it was a pain the ass.  Adding a Bipod was rather annoying to do as well, at least while trying to keep it service rifle legal.  Couldn't suppress it easily, or reliably.  (M1A QD FH adaptors at the time weren't that common.  Even today your selection is kinda thin.)  Had to keep a stash of gas plugs with holes drilled in them of varying diameters, to handle the different gas pressures and bullet weights I'd shoot so that I didn't bend the op rods.  (168, 175, 178, suppressed, unsuppressed, etc.)  Mags are more expensive.  ($30-35, vs $18 PMag LR's)  Spare parts are more expensive and can be hard to find.  Most require someone who knows how to work on the platform to fit and install them.  (Compare swapping an M14 trigger vs swapping an AR style.)  

The M1A's ended up tipping the scales at a little over 13 lbs empty.  15 with a loaded mag.  17+ with optic.  Made carrying them. . . well suck.  A lot of the M1A chassis systems are even heavier.  (SAGE, etc)  

Ended up selling it and eventually got an SR25 ECC.  Don't regret it at all.  Its lighter, easier to scope, and easier to shoot, clean and service.

If you want an accurized M1A for nostalgia or M14NM/M21/M25 clone reasons, thats all well and good.  But for an accurate gasser, stick with the AR platform.  Parts are cheaper, the gun is easier to work on, get parts for, mount optics, suppress, and will usually eat anything you feed them without risking a major part failure.

I try to get an H-59 in all my scopes. The little dot in the middle is great for shooting like the above. We do some fast hold calls and such on steel from different ranges and the H-59 is great for that. If I have to use something else, I will find a wind dot, and shift over to that in the reticle to do accuracy testing.

FYI: I don't want to seem intentionally obtuse with that question. I've shot a match grade M14 (actual M14) and I have had a couple M1As, one a Loaded. All shot decent to excellent (the M14 was sublime). Compared to an AR of course, there *is* a lot of maintenance required. Grab a match-tuned M14 or M1a by the (epoxied, for consistency) hand guard and watch it's owner flip his lid at you. Grab any AR by the forend, no big deal.

I get it on mounting optics too. And all the stuff flopping around that the AR doesn't, that contributes to accuracy issues, etc. I get it.

Just wondering if it's as agonizingly difficult as a lot of guys claim it is.

The handguard grab on an M14 might get you buttstroked depending on the owner.    

And in my case, scoping that M1A was a royal pain in the ass.  The scope 'groove' was just enough out of spec to cause any 'normal' scope mount to sit at a significant angle off to the right.  In the end, I ended up with a custom Sadlak, and it finally stopped being a problem.  Went thru an SA Gen 3, couple of ARMS 18's, a basset machine tool, even ponied up for a old BPT M25 mount.  Lotta time, effort, ammo, and wasted range trips in figuring the scope situation out.  

Its just that on an AR, a lot of the things you just have to set up, torque, and then not worry about them.  The M14?  You'd better bring a wrench.  And a file.  And an armorer.  And a mobile machine shop. . . . .

I own 2 m1as and an armalite ar10 national match. One of my m1as was built by Jon Wolfe, it is very accurate. Gun shoots sub moa even at 600 yards. I was shooting in a blistering 15 degrees while snowing like a blizzard.  Guys I was shooting with had some bolt action guns howa,  tikka..etc and we're very impressed how the m1a shot. Given it was with iron sights in a blizzard.
One of the pics from that day the snow stopped

As for my ar10, it is also an accurate gun however I have more money in my m1a and the m1a does seem to shoot more accurate at 600y. Could it be the barrel difference? Don't know,but if I am shooting iron sights at 600 plus I will take my m1a.

I just want to say, we're not worthy...

Dunno if this is sarcasm, but I was not trying to brag as I am far from a great shot. Just posting my thoughts on the m1a platform. If anyone wants the specs of my rifle or load I'd be more than happy to post.

No sarcasm at all, just recognizing someone shooting irons at 600, in a blizzard!  I'm old and my eyes are about 10 years past irons.

I would agree with this and add a few points but first my background.

An M1A was the first semi auto I bought with my own money as a teenager and I loved that rifle and shot a lot of bears and caribou with it. During that period I also had a M-24 clone and tried many times to get the M1A built up to be accurate, once in a while I'd see it hover in the area of just less than an MOA but never shot really good. Now if I had a better budget I'm sure it could have done better. And like I said I loved the rifle and it always functioned great.

Fast forward 20 years and I get my first Larue, second trip to the range it spot a better than 1/2 MOA group for me. The cheek weld was easy after trying to use an M1A with an optic. I could clean every part of it (that piston in the M1A did corrode in place the first year of college and required a gunsmith). The AR balances a little better for alternate firing positions. It reloads a lot faster. All around it just runs a lot easier and gives way better accuracy, consistently, without having to change any functionality of the gun (ejection, stripper clip guide, parts). Over all the AR is just way more conducive to accuracy.

So coming back to my two things to add:
M1A hard (not impossible) to work on without a smith.
Lots of mass moving around when it cycles after firing that has a lot of potential to reduce accuracy if not properly maintained.

It was the gun of Camp Perry for a long time, no doubt it can shoot when it's tuned up.

Very cool!!!!  I think the irons on an M1A might aid in accuracy over an AR, since they are longer.  Quite a bit longer.

Home built 20" Armalite AR10 just for reference.
10 shots, 200 yds.



My EBR Socom



National Match

Nice shooting!

Thank you sir. The rifle definitely makes me look good.

Excellent post.

My LR-308
$650+tax
$20 PG
$25 Ambi safety
$45 BUIS
$45 MOE Stock
$70 PA 6x optic
$24 rings
$30 red dot
$115 7 mags
-----------
$1000 ish



These are three and five round groups shooting benches with sand bags. 165 gr Horn BT over 41gr of
3031

Recent 100yd



100m

A year ago-100m right off the bat with a cheap Chinese optic.

Yeah holy crap.  I'm not sure what to say about that.  It looks like it should be a 100 yard group.  WOW.  That's like .5 MOA at 200 yards.  What ammo were you using?  And can we get a pic of your rig?  

I do like your M1A's also.  

168 FGMM. Honestly, I've never shot another group like that in my life. The group is a little over 1". I think I still have the target somewhere, I'll put some calipers to it. I'm not a real fenatic when it comes to shooting, in fact, I had thrown this target in the trash can at the range that day, and my friend made me keep it. (That's why it's a little wrinkled up).
This is a pic of both my AR10 .308's. They're Armalite uppers on Aero Precision lowers (I lived in CA when I built these), both have stainless Walther barrels and SWS E1 rails. The top one is the 20" that shot this group. The bottom one is a 16" that's darn near as accurate. Both were built from parts that I bought individually. Top rifle has an IOR optic and since, I've gone back to an A2 stock. Top rifle will shoot ~.5 moa @ 100yds. I've never done handloads for it. Never saw the need. Bottom rifle, now wearing a USO scope, shoots ~.7 moa @ 100. Both rifles were as "accurized" as possible for an AR build.

Well dang, you don't need to reload when they shoot that good with factory ammo.  Although you could maybe save some money since FGMM is expensive.  

Nice rifles.

Have you read the Trouble with Triples?





 

Hmmm, maybe I'll throw a scope on the M1A and see what happens.

What I know I don't like... the heavy wood stock. The bipod attaches directly to the barrel. Difficulty in mounting optics. They just don't seem to be designed to easily take an optic. I too have the infamous gen3 Spring mount. Ill need to figure out a comb riser (not using tape and foam). Mounting anything else, like a handguard, seems sloppy and expensive. The chassis are far from cheap, but I guess I can't whine about that too much.

Match accuracy from an M1A seems like more of a frustrating journey.

But I have the factory match ammo on hand. Might shoot some groups to see.

You've seen the trouble I'm having with the MWS, but that should be a fluke and hopefully changes.

I'd say look at match/competition targets and guns to see what AR vs M1A peeps are getting.

Trouble with Tripple - utter horse shit. Unless you are trying to build pics for a
thread like this.

Three shot groups are fine for providing adjustment data.

Five is better proof of potential accuracy.

You want LaRue proof? Send ten.



The AR design ( HB ) fired rapidly has never given me verticle strings or horizontal slides. Been laying down behind them for 26 years.
My M1A , And PSL, I played with, both could hit at 400, but you could never depend on the zero after having stored it for a season. My trust of my zero on all my AR, HK, and FALs was never an issue. Just those two types. It is my belief that the side mounted scope rails are the point of failure. The iron sights can be depended on to keep a cold bore zero.

You want to see a M1A shit the bed? Shoot three ten round groups at 200. Fire every five seconds if you can manage it. No pause for cool down. Now - how big is that trail of tears?

First ones fine: 2 MOA WOOT! Second group: hits high and low.... "but they're hits by god!" Third ten round group: AK accuracy going north.

I never did that test, but you may be right.  However, I didn't do too much cool down when I was shooting my groups.  I really don't remember how much though.  I probably did some.  It was only a couple of weeks ago and I don't recall what I did.  LOL.  Sucks getting old.   I know that I wasn't shooting other guns in between those groups.  I don't think.  LOL.  I think I fired them pretty consecutively.  But when I'm shooting for groups with any gun I usually try not to get it burning hot and then sit down and shoot for a group.  I mean any gun will be affected by that.  Maybe AR10's aren't affected by heat......  ????  Seems kind of unlikely though.

You should do it.  But for crying out loud, not with that bipod.    Just use some bags for the love of all that's holy and see if you can't make it group.  

If you'll notice, I can't remember if I said it, I only attached the Gen III mount with the one attachment.  I originally used the stripper clip attachment a long time ago, but then I noticed that in Vietnam, the M21's didn't have a mount with a second attachment.  Plus mind didn't seem to fit overly well.  So I just use the one attachment and use a big screw driver and torque it down.  I don't even loctite it because I want it to come off.

But the bipod is mil spec!

I'll probably bag it in front. I really don't care about it and it's not even my gun. But still interesting. Also, excuse to shoot before snow.

Also, if you meant the Atlas, it's now replaced with the PSR version. Feet won't roll the gun all the way down range now.

I have fired some unbelievable rapid fire groups from this rifle....


She has a FDE ACS and a 2.5-10x32 PST on her now. And I can't shoot groups that tight with the 10x scope but it's good enough to bang 10x12 plate at 1k. Pretty good for a 18 inch gas gun in my book.






This one is 16 inches and loves Prvi M80, it shoots almost as well as match.

I have really good luck with the Privi as well.

Just came across this thread, I've wanted an M1A off and on for 20 years.  

Looking at the Super Match, when accuracy "goes bad", how bad are we talking?  If just for a range toy smacking steel targets out to 400 yards or so does the accuracy get that bad?

Not if it is an ARMALITE  20" - 24" AR-10A4 or 10T.  That's 20" of chrome-lined or 20' - 24" of SS goodness for those in Rio Linda.

Taught at Stone Bay for two years. {'85 - '86}

First thing we offered to our Army SF and Ranger students, on day one (1), were M40A1s for the rest of the course.

Since 1999 and @ dozen ARMALITE AR-10s SS or C-L'd, 20" - 24", I'd stake my life on either gasser and never even pick up a surveyed M-21 w/ART II scope.

Today, not even with a S&B of choice.