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Posted: 8/17/2015 4:44:19 AM EDT
We have been testing ammo against hogs for almost two years. Most of this testing focused on finding an effective subsonic 300BLK round.
Why? Because being quiet is sometimes essential. For pigs, it can help prevent a sounder from getting away. It is less bothersome to cattle. And neighbors. It allows you to hunt in places where you otherwise might not be able to. It minimizes downrange risk past your target. It is an effective test for home defense. The main issue is getting effective expansion without velocity. Large hollow points destroy ballistic coefficients, but for close ranges that is not critical. For a rifle round that has to feed in an AR it is. Not only is the bullet shape not conducive to a large hollow point like a handgun round would have, but if you were to try to create it your bullet would lose any advantage it had as a rifle round. Might as well just use a handgun. So the solution to this problem was a little engineering. A bullet could be designed to maintain it's shape for proper feeding in the firearm while expanding effectively in the target. This is achieved by weakening the bullet in just the right places to promote textbook petal expansion. But in order to get penetration and weight retention, it has to be a solid copper projectile versus any sort of jacketed design. So now we have a solid copper bullet with a number of cuts to ensure reliable and consistent expansion at subsonic velocities while retaining 100% of its weight and achieving penetration and energy transfer. These bullets are machined on CNC lathes spinning at 10000rpms which means they can not be out of center which in turn makes them fly truer. Like many other problems, this solution comes with a hefty price tag as a trade off. Worth their price definitely, but when you start shooting them in large quantities, those numbers add up quickly and can be prohibitive. What would happen if you took that exact same technology and put it into a regular supersonic round? The exact same thing happens. You get a bullet that feeds reliably, flies true, and maximizes expansion and energy transfer with good penetration. Because of the engineering, these bullets expand exactly the same way every time. These exotic bullets will work on anything, but they really are most effective on medium to large game. Over the years, we've found that for hogs, a solid copper bullet that retains 100% of its weight with maximum expansion has been the most effective round time and time again. But with $3-4/rd costs, it just isn't cost effective for the amount of shooting that we do. This can run from 30-100 or more rounds a night per person. So what are the alternatives? Some of the large ammunition manufacturers are making dedicated hog hunting rounds. Barnes has made the solid copper TSX bullet which has been very effective, and now Remington has loaded it into their Hog Hammer round. At almost half of the price of the exotics, this has been a very real solution for many myself included. However, its performance when compared to the exotics leaves a lot to be desired. Below is a sample of three rounds fired into water from 10yds away. On the left is a 200gr subsonic, in the middle a 125gr supersonic, and on the right a 130gr Hog Hammer TSX. So what can be done about the cost of the exotics? We've decided to get them made and offer them for a reasonable price. We're calling this ammo REAPR which stands for Rapid Expanding Anaerectic Projectile, Rifle (Anaerectic means destructive). So the two rounds above are: 1) Maker Bullet 200gr REX loaded into a new tactiblack coated brass case and Hodgdon Lil Gun Powder from St Marks. 2) Maker Bullet 125gr T-Rex (tipped) loaded into the same black electroless nickel coated brass case as above. The difference is that we're offering these rounds at $1.50-$2/rd which is half of the others, and much closer to the non-exotics out there. These will be packaged in TAC-PAC clear plastic ammunition containers that let you see exactly what you get, and can be used over and over again to carry your ammo. We are currently finishing testing on this ammo, but it will also be available in .223 and .308 shortly as well as 300BLK so this is not meant as an advertisement, but a place to discuss. In the field exit wounds: |
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Any chance of getting some of each type over to one of the guys on this board like Blue Falcon who does gel testing? |
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I may be interested in these once available in .300 BLK. View Quote That's all that's available. https://store.ar15.com/cat.html?cat=10 |
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Any chance of getting some of each type over to one of the guys on this board like Blue Falcon who does gel testing? If he's willing, then definitely. Awesome. I sent an IM to Blue Falcon about this. |
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How much Lil Gun powder is used in both loads, and what sort of velocities are you getting? What was the length of the barrel used in your tests? If a standard 16" barrel, what affect do you think the rounds would have in a 10" barrel? Just curious. Thanks.
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How much Lil Gun powder is used in both loads, and what sort of velocities are you getting? What was the length of the barrel used in your tests? If a standard 16" barrel, what affect do you think the rounds would have in a 10" barrel? Just curious. Thanks. View Quote Have to gather data off this batch. I'm shooting out of an 8" barrel. |
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What does "Anaerectic" mean? Not erect (as in no longer standing)? I looked up aerectic, no such word. Putting "an" before a word means "without", as in "anaerobic"--no oxygen. So, I could see spelling it "Anerectic". Just curious...
I know you haven't chrono'd the rounds yet, but do you know how much Lil Gun is being used in each charge? Who developed the round? Thanks. |
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How do they compare to,the Nosler 125's ??? View Quote Because the Nosler bullet is not scored as is the Maker rounds, the results would probably be similar to the Barnes TSX round shown in the photos when shot subsonic. Until the development of rounds like these, shooting the 300 BLK subsonic was like shooting FMJ--no expansion. |
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What does "Anaerectic" mean? Not erect (as in no longer standing)? I looked up aerectic, no such word. Putting "an" before a word means "without", as in "anaerobic"--no oxygen. So, I could see spelling it "Anerectic". Just curious... I know you haven't chrono'd the rounds yet, but do you know how much Lil Gun is being used in each charge? Who developed the round? Thanks. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
What does "Anaerectic" mean? Not erect (as in no longer standing)? I looked up aerectic, no such word. Putting "an" before a word means "without", as in "anaerobic"--no oxygen. So, I could see spelling it "Anerectic". Just curious... I know you haven't chrono'd the rounds yet, but do you know how much Lil Gun is being used in each charge? Who developed the round? Thanks. It means destructive. Not sure of current charge on these, but I'll get it and chrono the rounds. The bullet is from Maker Bullets (Rex and T-Rex). Quoted:
Is this basically a more budget friendly Lehigh type? Same concept. Same exact bullet as G2 Research rounds. |
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Any chance of getting some of each type over to one of the guys on this board like Blue Falcon who does gel testing? If he's willing, then definitely. I'd be happy to but I don't own a .300 Blackout. I think a friend of mine bought one, though. I'll have to check with him. |
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Because the Nosler bullet is not scored as is the Maker rounds, the results would probably be similar to the Barnes TSX round shown in the photos when shot subsonic. Until the development of rounds like these, shooting the 300 BLK subsonic was like shooting FMJ--no expansion. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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How do they compare to,the Nosler 125's ??? Because the Nosler bullet is not scored as is the Maker rounds, the results would probably be similar to the Barnes TSX round shown in the photos when shot subsonic. Until the development of rounds like these, shooting the 300 BLK subsonic was like shooting FMJ--no expansion. I shoot the 125's at about 2000 fps |
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It means destructive. Not sure of current charge on these, but I'll get it and chrono the rounds. The bullet is from Maker Bullets (Rex and T-Rex). Same concept. Same exact bullet as G2 Research rounds. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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What does "Anaerectic" mean? Not erect (as in no longer standing)? I looked up aerectic, no such word. Putting "an" before a word means "without", as in "anaerobic"--no oxygen. So, I could see spelling it "Anerectic". Just curious... I know you haven't chrono'd the rounds yet, but do you know how much Lil Gun is being used in each charge? Who developed the round? Thanks. It means destructive. Not sure of current charge on these, but I'll get it and chrono the rounds. The bullet is from Maker Bullets (Rex and T-Rex). Quoted:
Is this basically a more budget friendly Lehigh type? Same concept. Same exact bullet as G2 Research rounds. Anaerectic: I found it. A "rare" old word meaning just what you said, destructive. Learned something new today! I'm still wonder if it means rendering something "non-erect'. They really are nasty looking rounds. Can't wait to shoot them! Are they still in development or have you finalized the "recipe"? |
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Anaerectic: I found it. A "rare" old word meaning just what you said, destructive. Learned something new today! I'm still wonder if it means rendering something "non-erect'. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Anaerectic: I found it. A "rare" old word meaning just what you said, destructive. Learned something new today! I'm still wonder if it means rendering something "non-erect'. They really are nasty looking rounds. Can't wait to shoot them! Are they still in development or have you finalized the "recipe"? This is a first run with this powder, and we're actually looking to replace it with http://www.stealthgunpowder.com. The first step was testing of available rounds, once we found the right bullets, we were set there. But finding no existing commercial load that made financial sense for the large round count hunter, we've had to come out with our own which is how we ended up where we are today. Bottom line is that we can change whatever we need based on feedback from you guys, which is what this first session was for. Pigs couldn't wait for the Stealth Powder so we came out with an alternative for now which we've found to have negligible flash (out of suppressed guns anyway). Quoted:
I would be interested in trying this bullet and load out of a 16" unsupressed. Assuming you loaded it for subsonic in 8", it would come out supersonic at sea level st&p, at what range would it go subsonic - 75 meters maybe? Would that bullet hold together at point blank / supersonic velocities in hogs/whitetails? It will definitely hold together- the 125gr is the same design, loaded at full power. The 200gr subsonic you can see how long it is, there's no room in the case for more powder! But if you loaded it into a .308 for instance, it will definitely hold up. Our subsonic 200gr was not specifically loaded for the 8", so the key is to find the right load for most uses. |
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Quoted: It means destructive. Not sure of current charge on these, but I'll get it and chrono the rounds. The bullet is from Maker Bullets (Rex and T-Rex). Same concept. Same exact bullet as G2 Research rounds. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: What does "Anaerectic" mean? Not erect (as in no longer standing)? I looked up aerectic, no such word. Putting "an" before a word means "without", as in "anaerobic"--no oxygen. So, I could see spelling it "Anerectic". Just curious... I know you haven't chrono'd the rounds yet, but do you know how much Lil Gun is being used in each charge? Who developed the round? Thanks. It means destructive. Not sure of current charge on these, but I'll get it and chrono the rounds. The bullet is from Maker Bullets (Rex and T-Rex). Quoted: Is this basically a more budget friendly Lehigh type? Same concept. Same exact bullet as G2 Research rounds. I was going to ask if there was a Georgia connection, I was shown a very similar round about 3 months ago by the guy that engraved my SBR who is on the G2 team. Nice to see them show up in the AR15.com store. |
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So can you get those bullets in regular 308 chambering? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Yes. We'll have some available in the near future. Quoted:
future offerings for 6.8 SPC ? Certainly possible. |
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Yes. We'll have some available in the near future. Certainly possible. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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So can you get those bullets in regular 308 chambering? Yes. We'll have some available in the near future. Quoted:
future offerings for 6.8 SPC ? Certainly possible. when regular 308 is out please post it here!@ |
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I have tried many bullets for hog hunting, and this is by FAR the most effective bullet I have come across. It comes with a higher price tag, but you don't need to shoot as many. In the end it costs about the same for me because these bullets produce very few runners. Here is a video using the REAPR ammo with the Maker 125 super in 300BLK: |
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Any chance of getting some of each type over to one of the guys on this board like Blue Falcon who does gel testing? If he's willing, then definitely. Turns out he did get a .300 Blackout upper. I'll PM you my address. |
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Quoted: Great video Tyler, lotta DRT's. They do save ammo! JPK View Quote Even with the best expansion results possible, a bullet like the Barnes TSX still expands much smaller than the REAPR. Expansion is the #1 characteristic I look for in a bullet. If it doesn't expand, I might as well be shooting FMJs. |
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Yes. We'll have some available in the near future. Certainly possible. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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So can you get those bullets in regular 308 chambering? Yes. We'll have some available in the near future. Quoted:
future offerings for 6.8 SPC ? Certainly possible. I would love to see some 200gr subsonic 6.8 SPC ammo! The 200gr recipe (using a Woodleigh bullet) is available from Bison Armory. Bison makes fast twist 6.8 barrels to stabilize 200 gainers at subsonic velocities, and I have one. REAPR ammo is the best reason to buy or build a 300BLK upper I have seen! JPK |
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Sorry if I missed it but when do yall think you'll have some of this ready to ship?
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For those of us who prefer to load our own, is there any chance the projectiles will be sold as components?
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Quoted: For those of us who prefer to load our own, is there any chance the projectiles will be sold as components? View Quote http://www.makerbullets.com |
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Very nice performance.
How far did the hog run out of curiosity? Critters sometime amaze with how far they can go without a heart and/or with jellied lungs. ETA: Still hoping you all will add a subsonic 6.8 loading! JPK |
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Very nice performance. How far did the hog run out of curiosity? Critters sometime amaze with how far they can go without a heart and/or with jellied lungs. ETA: Still hoping you all will add a subsonic 6.8 loading! JPK View Quote Most hogs I've shot with the Barnes 110gr were bang-flops, I'd imagine this is similar in performance. I'd be curious to see some more results with the subs. |
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Most hogs I've shot with the Barnes 110gr were bang-flops, I'd imagine this is similar in performance. I'd be curious to see some more results with the subs. View Quote Yeah- this one didn't go more than a few steps, but hogs are definitely tough and I've seen them take a number of rounds (of lesser performance) and keep running, or fall and get up only to run away. Typically we shoot for the central nervous system, where "anything" will do the job, so taking a vitals shot to test bullet performance is not the way we normally would shoot them. Then trying to find a 125gr bullet in a 200b hog is no picnic either. We use a metal detector to make the job easier, but it's still not simple to try to preserve and document the damage along the way. I'd say documenting bullet performance through autopsy in the field at night by flashlight is definitely harder than taking a quality pic through night vision! Luckily we had a pathologist with us for this one... Will work on documenting some 300BLK sub kills next time. The problem is no one else is using them (they're typically hunting with 5.56), so it's harder to determine who shot what pig without cross contamination. I need a clean kill that no one else shoots. |
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I'm waiting to see the 300AAC subs report. Currently hunt deer with 110 barnes and they don't make it more than 10 yards. If there is a subsonic round with the same or better performance, my neighbors will thank you.
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Tested the 200 gr and 125 gr versions today. Videos should be up soon.
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Were both rounds fired the same? If so, I'm assuming the first shot didn't open up? Did you ever find the first bullet since it passed through all of the jugs? Did the denim clog up the bullet? That second bullet looks awesome
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Were both rounds fired the same? View Quote Yes. If so, I'm assuming the first shot didn't open up? View Quote I believe you are correct. It is common for denim to clog a small cavity at low speed. This shouldn't be an issue in its intended role of hunting. I did not recover the first bullet. |
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Ed,
The terminal performance is definitely there. Let us know about any further technical information whenever it comes available: BC for the REX & T-REX bullet REAPR loads, minimum impact velocity needed for expansion, a quick accuracy check. No loaded ammo was available in the store so I have both bullets coming from Maker. TIA |
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Perfect! I am using a suppressed 16" RARR and a 9" AAC upper. We appreciate it.
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Any load data for these bullets with other powders? I have found nothing online.
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https://youtu.be/KXoTUk1-r1w 125 gr REAPR fired from 8" 1:7" AR into calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin. BB calibration: 597.3 fps, 3.6" Big thank you to Ed Avila of AR15.com for providing the upper and ammunition for testing. |
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