I've researched it and some said its fine and others say it's under-powered and shouldn't be used. What's your thoughts? And if you think it's fine with the right bullet, what bullet is good and how far is the max with it on deer?



And if that isn't fine, what about the .300 AAC Blackout with supersonic ammo and suppressor for deer? And if this works, what bullet is good?

How loud?

I use 125 grain Nosler Ballistic tip ammo in a hand load, pretty quiet through a can and send them ass over teakettle, one of my favorites, nice shooting, it is super sonic, but not loud at all.

How loud compared to a 5.56 with a suppressor and supersonic ammo?

"loud" is going to subjective and dependent on what can you're using and what load.

Subsonic (220gr sig sauer) through my omega can is just silly. Pellet gun loud.

Supersonic is a litter quieter than a .22lr through a rifle.

Thats about the best I can describe.

Neither hurts ears at all.

I can't speak for effectiveness on deer but I know subsonic doesn't work on hogs unless you hit their brain or hit the spine.  Seen too many run off even after multiple hits.  Supersonic ammo works well on hogs.  I'd say super sonic through suppressor is like regular 22lr fired through rifle.

Shot placement is key. Shoot them in the brain housing group. A 22lr will do the job.

Supersonic is roughly equivalent to a 7.62x39 Soviet.  It will work fine, provided you use a good expanding soft point (Nolser 125 BT works good) and ranges are modest.  The 300 whisper (forerunner of the AAC) has been used by the Contender hunting crowd for a long time, and the Nolser 125 has a reputation of working well at modest speeds.

The subsonics usually use a heavy for caliber bullet, along the lines of a 220-240.  These are often BTHP or FMJ type bullets.  No expansion.  Even if you could find a 220-240 soft point, impact speeds in the subsonic range mean virtually NO expansion.  In other words, you are hunting with a non-exanding, 220-240 grain bullet at muzzle velocities of roughly 1000 fps.  This isn't enough.   It's basically equal to a .45 ACP with 230 grain ball ammo, at 100 yards.  That isn't a reliable killer of deer.


The AAC can get it done.  The best available bullet is likely the 110 grn Barnes TTSX, which is designed specifically for the AAC.  It will open and work well.  I would feel comfortable with a 125 Nosler Ballistic Tip or equivalent light weight Hornady SST.  Max range is likely about 125 yards.  Beyond that you might hit the target, but reduced impact speeds begin to make expansion iffy.

I believe the old rule is, 1000 ft lb of energy to humanely kill a deer.

Just a follow up....  I got to thinking about .30 Carbine for a different project.  And it struck me as a comparison for the Blackout.  The old M1 Carbine pushed a 110 grain FMJ at 1990fps for about 970 or so Ft/Lbs.  And it gathered a fair bit of a reputation as a poor stopper.

The Subsonic blackout varies some, but a 220 at 1010 fps for 498 ft/lbs is representative.  In other words, HALF the so called power of the .30 cal Carbine load, again with a non expanding bullet.  That isn't so good.  To my mind, the proper comparison for the Whisper or Blackout isn't comparing it to other rifle cartridges.  Instead compare it to subsonic suppressed 9mm or even 45.  If you want a quiet weapon, that historically was a suppressed 9mm.  A 115 or 124 grainer, with a upper velocity limit of about 1010-1020, isn't a great performer.  Move to the subsonic AAC, and now its a streamlined 220 or 240, at the same speed, and it retains its speed.  That is a huge improvement within the limits of the suppressed world.

Improvement aside, the subsonic doesn't compare, even remotely, to any real supersonic rifle cartridge.  Step the AAC up to a 125 at 2200, 2300 and you've now got three things:

1) An expanding bullet that provides some internal damage to help insure clean killing on  deer

2) 1360 Ft/lbs of energy

3) a virtual ballistic twin of the 7.62x39

I didn't think of the .30 Cal Carbine analogy earlier, but I think it makes sense.  The AAC either offers HALF the Carbine performance in a Subsonic, or it offers about 40% MORE performance than the US .30 Carbine  in the supersonic load.

Subsonic? NO
Supersonic? YES

Interesting.

If you want to use subsonic for hunting i think the only round to look at is the Lehigh 194gr. I personally haven't used it for hunting but from what i have seen/read it's the only worthy candidate for an expanding subsonic round at the moment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDym4GXrPRw

I was just thinking about this, but from another angle. I KNOW 300BLK supersonic works fine on deer, I've got plenty of venison to prove that.





I have been using a 12.5" barrel to keep the velocity and energy up around 1000 ftlbs under 100 yards. My max distance is 105 yards (and I've got plenty of stronger medicine if I need to go longer).





I was thinking about building an 8.5" setup just for kicks but looking at the ballistics has me a little worried. With Barnes 110gr the energy is almost immediately under 1000 and around 780 at 100 yards. A bullet any heavier and the numbers are worse. Will that be effective on medium sized deer? I would probably keep distance to no more than 75 yards.





What do people think? Talking super sonic, 8.5" barrel, under 100 yards, medium size deer (Northern VA, no corn-fed bruisers here). Looking for personal experiences as I can theorize all day long





Thanks!


-Stooxie

 

Stooxie...

Energy is only part of the equation.  Bullet performance also matters, probably more than just energy.  

My concern with the shorty barrel and the AAC is velocity loss.  The AAC doesn't have a whole lot of speed to begin with.  Its not anything like the 2900, 3000, 3100+ many other cartridges get.    If you start using factory ammo with really really short barrels, you may well find that impact speeds have dropped far enough that the bullet no longer opens and expands reliably.  This isn't limited to just the AAC... My old moose rifle was a 350 Rem Mag.  The 225 grain Partitions really needed a decent 1900 FPS to open well.  Call it 2000 to be safe.  Well, those big bullets slow down in a hurry, and at 300 yards I'm down to 2076 fps.  At 350 yards its about 1900 fps.  I might be able to hit stuff farther, but the bullet won't open well.  I witnessed this on the cow moose I shot at 292 yards.  I dropped her, but the damage wasn't what you'd expect out of 225 grains of .35 cal partition.  Just too slow

I'd be really worried about the velocity loss.  Forget energy.  Think about expansion and performance.  I'm thinking the 8" barrel won't provide the speed needed to open up the bullet well.  I could be wrong.  I wouldn't be real excited about this, with only one exception:  Maybe something like the Barnes 110 TTSX has a larger velocity window.  

Supposedly the Barnes TTSX opens up at speeds above 1400 fps.  The Barnes factory laid supposedly does a bit over 2300 with a 16'.  8" barrels likely will loose what, maybe 200-250 fps?  I've seen some info indicating the AAC 110 barnes load will do about 2000 out of an 8" barrel.    At 100 yards you'll still have about 1750 fps and 750 ft/lbs.  The Barnes SHOULD open.    With numbers that low, I'd sort pretend I was bowhunting, and wait for the double lung broad side.

I'm not sure what the 8" barrel gets you in terms of any advantage.  With the 'made-specifically-for-the-blackout barnes bullet, its doable,  With something like the nosler 125 ballistic tips or others, its becoming iffy.  Sorry.  No personal experience with the combo.  Just years experience with bullets working inside and outside their sweetspot velocity wise

Yes. but if one is not willing to or able to put for the effort to make it work then they need to use something else.

I have plenty of deer that ended up in my freezer to prove it works.

The 3 most important aspects of subsonic hunting

Shot placement
Shot placement
Bullet design

there are a few companies making good low velocity expanding, heavy gr /30 caliber bullets.

Lehigh defence - all copper
Maker Bullets - all copper
Outlaw state - lead core/thin copper jacket

the 1000ft lbs of energy needed to ethically take down a deer is a myth, with zero basis in the real world.  Sure there are a few states that require that.  However challenge anyone to prove why 1000ftlbs, why not 800 or 1200?  back it up with facts.

You will notice people will say it fails.  however when they say it fails, more often then not they forget to mention the bullet they were using.  In my experience it takes several times of asking the same question before they will admit that they were using a non expanding bullet, ie. 220smk, 208 AMAX etc.  If they are using those bullets then they are using the wrong bullet, unless they are using a 1 in 10 twist, witch is rare for 300blk.  most barrels are 1 in 8 or 1 in 7.  with a 1 in 10 twist they may get the bullets to tumble, which does produce an effective exit wound, and therefore a good blood trail till they expire. However it is a crap shoot and while it can work, it is better and I recommend an expanding bullet.  with 1 in 8 or 1 in 7 you can still get bullets to tumble, however more often then not, they will only tumble after they have passed thru the animal.  With out that effect or preferably the effect of an expanding bullet, then the bullet simply drilled a .30 caliber hole straight thru. If their shot placement was where it was supposed to be, ie double lung, then the failure to recover is not on the 300blk.  If their shot placement was good but they used an ineffective bullet design, then they more then likely did kill the animal, however the bullet drilled that .30 caliber hole straight thru and that made it so that there was not a blood trail to follow so they lost the animal and could not track it.  

So those who say it does not work want to blame the 300blk for their failure to use an effective bullet design, either that or their bullet placement is not as good as they claim.  But it is not possible that the unethical one is the bad hunter.  gotta be the caliber.

Now many will poopoo everything I just posted.  and they are welcome to.  for years I have argued this and backed it up with real world results.  But some guy on you tube with possibly correctly calibrated ballistic gel or possibly not correctly calibrated ballistics gel, and a fancy opening sequence gets more credit, because he never took it into the field.  But by God he has a youtube channel.

To repeat my first statement.

Yes, but if you are not willing to put forth the effort, to get it done correctly, then either use supers or choose another caliber.

What bullet were you using?

It is an opinion. But not based on any actual reality.

Real question is, why?

Do you think you will get more opportunities at other deer because its quiet?

The sound of the bullet impacting the animal will be louder than the shot... It will in turn scare other deer off.

I'd skip the subs and run supers.

Why not?

I like it, because I hunt in dense Woods not far from a neighborhood. So at dawn when that nice buck is standing in front of me I don't piss off my neighbors when I shoot him.

I've had the good fortune to shoot multiple deer three times now. Twice with unsuppressed 7mm-08 and once with suppressed supersonic 300 blackout. I have shot enough single deer with suppressed 7mm-08 and 300 blackout to be pretty sure that shot noise, or lack thereof, doesn't reliably change their scattering or freezing behavior post shot.

Pissing off neighbors is another matter, but suppressed supersonic won't be annoying anyone unless you are outside their bedrooms.


-Stooxie

So you're willing to "increase"  the  chance of a marginally wounded deer, and possibly have to recover it on your neighbors property?

My real world results have not shown it to be any more of a risk then using a supersonic .308 Winchester.

And much less of a risk then a novice with a 300 win mag who flinches every time he pulls the trigger.

I have already proven multiple times is viable, and no where near as impossible or unethical as many claim.  

But I also state if one is not willing to put forth the effort to make sure it will work, as well as the confidence that they can do their part, then one needs to Use something else.

I fail to see why that is so hard to grasp.

OP,
    The major hurdle for the 300BLK caliber is dealing with the low impact velocity. At present, we only have a handful of bullets that have been designed from the ground up specifically for use in the .300BLK AR15/M16 platform but the Barnes 110GR. TAC-TX bullet is one of them. Barnes has stated that the minimum expansion impact velocity for their 110Gr. TAC-TX bullet is just 1350 FPS. And the factory Barnes 110GR. TAC-TX  based VOR-TX load chrono'd  2228 FPS from a  9" AAC upper with 762-SD can and 2435 FPS from a 16" RARR with 762-SD can. So this load should retain the minimum expansion velocity of 1350 FPS out to approx. 300yds. from the 9" AAC upper and 400yds. from the 16" RARR. Penetration on gel tests is usually 20" plus with approx. 2X expansion. The only drawbacks I see to the Barnes 110GR. VOR-TX load are price and overpenetration for LE/SD/HD use. We also have MILLED homogenous copper bullets designed by LEHIGH & MAKER that work extremely well in the 300BLK caliber. And we are getting more bullets designed to work well in the 300BLK every year. HTH

EDIT: I have now killed approx. (200) varmints/predators/whitetail with the 300BLK firing subs and supers. Luckily, I don't have many hogs to deal with yet but hogs are becoming more of a problem every year as the population explodes.. The 300BLK is quite capable of taking even large hogs efficiently as long as I use the proper expanding bullet type preferably in a super. All the 208 AMAX and 220 SMK heavy-weight subs do is punch deep holes with no expansion/fragmentation whatsoever so terminal performance on flesh & bone targets is very low. Multiple shots have been the rule with the non-expanding subs. Supers with expanding/fragmenting bullets have produced many light-switch kills and a single shot to the vitals has been the norm.

Factory advertisement:



Water-shot expansion/fragmentation tests:

My deal is - why handicap yourself for the sake of 10db.

He's hunting, where the intent is to kill the deer.

While suppressed subsonic is cool, it decreases said weapons lethality....

You are free use whatever you feel does not handicap yourself.  But someone somewhere will tell you it is not enough.

However I keep killing them just as dead as someone with a .270, .308, .30-06. 300 win mag.  And I know of plenty of hunters that use the above calibers and hunt the same sub 100yds that I do.  And for some reason they can shoot a spike buck at 50 yes and it is hand shakes and congrats.  I shoot a 9 point with a sub. Kill it just as dead as that spike.  And I have handicapped myself?

You see it as a handicap.  I don't.

OP,
    Here are (3) more interesting factory loads definitely worth testing with, at least for my purposes.  I should get a chance to use them on a 2 week hunt/shoot at the end of this month.



MAKER Bullets 200GR. REX expansion characteristics at subsonic impact velocity: If someone had given me a verbal on this before I saw this data, I would have thought they were smoking dope. Note that the largest expanded diameter shown is at the simulated 600yd. impact velocity. The REX bullet appears to fold on impact as it expands. So the Sample 1 bullet appears to have expanded to at least 1.160" as shown in Sample 4 as it folded to 1.02". Am I attempting to promote the use of subs at 600yds? Of course not. But if you can put either the MAKER 200GR. REX sub or the LEHIGH 194GR. ME sub into the kill zone at any reasonable distance, your flesh & bone target should bleed out very quickly.



The BHA gel shot test of their new 300 Whisper/300BLK 125GR. TMK load fired from a 16" barrel shows terminal performance observed on flesh & bone targets.




300BLK shooting sticks used for all lawful purposes including SD/HD/animal control & hunting as well as dealing with trespassers & poachers.