Interesting enough observation.  Over 25 or so years I have come up with the following 'categories' if you will and I'm still making changes.  Thinking along these lines got me into the calibers listed.  Maybe the OP and others classify things a bit differently.

"Centerfire - cheap to shoot yet accurate out to 2-300 yards if I want it to be"
223 Wylde chambered AR-15.

"Texas Deer & Pig" - the deer in this part of the state are rather small.  Shots beyond 200 yards are common just like finding a $50 bill in your happy meal.
Surprisingly this is wide open at the moment - my heavier guns are filling this role at the moment.  Prior guns were 6.8SPC and a 7mm-08 bolt gun.

"Long range critters up to Elk sized" (for me this is 400 yards absolute max-I do not get to practice enough for me to be comfortable beyond this) my
7mm Mag and 308 go here though I'm not 100% satisfied yet.  I have a re-barrel pending and 7mmSTW may get the nod.

"Dedicated target rifle-accurate regardless of ammunition cost"
6.5x47 chalked in here - this is a long way off.

"Alaskan large / dangerous game, African plains and big cats"
9.3x62 - it seems there is just nothing this round will not kill.

"Africa caliber which is not huge overkill on bears"
.416 Rigby - ammo availability in that part of the world is good.  Hand-loaded it isn't too expensive to shoot.  Even custom rifles hold their value well.

I can see the Grendel doing #1 so-so, it's hard to beat .223 for cheap.  2 I can see it doing par excellence.  3 - if it was anything but elk.. they are just so damn tough, the 6.5 part works but I'd prefer 6.5x284.  #4 I can see 6.5g competing OK with the Lapua cartridge? Not my area.  #5 & #6 no way - wrong line of business.  These animals can and will kill and eat you.  Their bones are thick, their hides are thick, their attitudes are often very, very bad.

*I guess the point here is 6.5g can take a stab at a number of these that I do not think the other alternative AR-15 calibers can...

I've been thinking along these lines lately as well, but I think 2 rifles could cover them all.

Centerfire cheap to shoot:  6.5 Grendel steel case

Hog & Pig, whether Texas or Warthogs even:  6.5 Grendel

Elk to 400yds:  6.5 Grendel or 6.5 Creedmoor using 120gr TSX or 129gr ABLR or 129gr SST

Elk past 400yds:  6.5 Creedmoor with some precision rifle training/instruction and a good guide/partner

Target rifle: Take both.  6.5 Creedmoor will hit harder, have a little less wind drift, and be flatter, but both are supersonic past 1200yds.  Both have affordable ammo cost and ready availability.

African Plains and Alaska:  Either will do just fine in a marksman's hands.  WDM Bell preferred the 6.5x54 Mannlicher or even 6.5x53 Rimmed Mannlicher for his kudu, giraffe, springbok, warthog, and regular game-harvesting for meat, and would trade the meat and hides from these animals with tribal leaders for information about where the herds of elephants were.  The 6.5s were the rare cases when he would use expanding bullets for "normal game" , whereas he preferred FMJs for brain shots on elephants.  He tried one of the dangerous game rifles, a .450/400 Jeffrey double rifle on his first safari, and ditched it after that, after seeing that they died just the same with smaller calibers.  For Africa, you have to consider the laws now, as there are places that won't allow chamberings that WDM Bell used.

I go to Scandinavia a lot, and moose are like rats up there, whereas little roe deer are more scarce in Finland.  Millions of moose have been killed with 6.5x55 Mauser dating back to the late 1800s.  Aside from the .458 Win Mag and .45-70, the 6.5mm and 7mm produce the least travel distances from the shot when looking at the Scandinavian moose hunting survey, which included 14,000 samples from Norway, Sweden, and Finland.  The worst performing cartridges were .30-06, .308, and .300 Win Mag, and I think recoil is the main factor in that, not terminal performance.  They still brought the game down, but average travel distances with the .30 bores was noticeably different across that many thousands of samples to be more than coincidence.  When you look at the challenges of optics holding zero, and muzzle blast/recoil-induced flinching, I think that's what is accounting for the reduced performance on target.

In well-trained hands, a .30 bore will get the job done all day long, but as WDM Bell concluded, why fight yourself if there is an easier way?

I've been planning a 2018 Namibia trip.  In this planning I found most of the places I looked at required 40 or 41 caliber - period for heavy / dangerous game.  That is the very, very last part of the world you want to find yourself in violation of game restrictions.  Even my 9.3 - which also has a tremendous Africa reputation isn't sufficient, which is why I never bothered with a 375.  I figured go to the Rigby, though I seriously considered 404 as well.

Anyhow - back to the smaller calibers; I've hunted in AK quite a bit and I'm not sure I'd be comfy with 6.5 in a 'stop bear' or 'stop cat' situation.  For plains game I suppose it would be OK.  You don't need to tell me it will take moose - IDK what it is but moose seem happy to fall for just about any deer rifle - perhaps it's that huge vital area.

The big cats are ballistics-wise an odd duck and they've been written about extensively.  They have really complex, high-strung nervous systems and it doesn't take a lot to get them to stop and take notice.  Still - one shot life vs. death I wouldn't at all mind a heavier caliber.  I'd never go hunt for one (I'd rather watch a trophy leopard than take it) but that doesn't mean they don't hunt you.

Anyone, I mean anyone that recommends shooting Elk with either the 6.8 or 6.5G at 400 yards should be ignored for everything they say about anything.
Yes both cartridges have done it.
By extremely talented guys in 2 cases.

Elk are very hard to kill and can run off after being hit with a 300 Win mag.

A caliber with the available energy of either of these to should never be used on a game animal of the size of an Elk at those distances. 200 yards and in at the most, with a damm well placed shot.
It is completely unethical any further out.

The ability to do so being stated is being done strictly as a unethical sales ploy.

And WM Bell, he killed 80% of the elephants he did with a 7x57, his favorite cartridge. With close in brain shots.

Well then lets outlaw bow hunting completely.
What is the energy left at 25yds in a 125 grain broadhead?
Oh no the horror!!
Ya know what a GOOD/ETHICAL bowman knows that most people don't....Practice and take clean ethical only shots that will bleed out quickly.
And they also owe it to the community to be very efficient trackers.
When my sone got the bow bug, I made him shoot from his tree stand and I was his arrow fetcher and send em back up.
Over and over again, and he learned to track.

300 mag run off my ass, thats a poor shooter and possibly a poor bullet selection or both.

A bow is no comparison
If you dont know why then.....

I know that alot of hunters think they can make up for lack of hunting skills and shooting abilities by going bigger caliber.
And that is stupid.
As far as bow vs rifle, if your taking vital shots vs CNS shots, then guess what?? Hemorrhaging out is just that,no matter how the wound was inflicted.
Blood loss is blood loss, broadhead, bullet, spear, pointy stick, doesn't matter.

Thank you all for your time and opinions. But, this is not a 6.5 vs 6.8 showdown nor am I hunting dangerous Big game at long distances..

I read through some of the wright up in that link that was posted earlier. It seems the writer likes slow big fragmenting rounds or strong fast lightweight bullets, depending on game. From what I read, the solid copper bullets are fine as long as they are lightweight and fast. He recommends a minimum velocity of 2600fps at impact to get the shock wave needed to drop game fast. The 6.8 with a 95g Barnes TTSX bullet will do that out to 100 yrds (within my average shooting distances) With a bullet this light, it needs to be strong to punch through shoulders, or to take a head on or tail on shots. Hence the solid copper bullet. I have heard in the past that some of the experts say that a 120g bullet is as light as they would go for a deer rifle. This is why I asked the original question. I know a lighter bullet will do the job. I've killed several deer with 95-100g bullets and properly placed shots, and with newer bullet construction (Barnes TTSX) I wonder if the 95g is comparable to a standard lead core 120g bullet of yesteryear???

So, it looks to me like there is no magical flat shooting caliber out there that does a better job than the 6.8. I was hoping to sling a heavier bullet at the same velocity but perhaps that's not necessary or possible in an standard AR15.

Thanks again for your help.
swampie

Agree completely.  Same thing with a 243 etc.  If you want to shoot 400 yards or more on elk you really need to step up to bigger cartridge like a 7mm mag or bigger.  I am sure someone will come here and say they killed a elk with a 243 at 800 yards or the Grendel at 500.  People have killed a boatload of deer with the 22lr doesn't make it even a decent idea unless its a survival situation

Sorry if the topic got sidetracked.
Opinions vary, as you can see.
And to the other posters, I consider the sharing of debatable info, just that.
I view debating as a way to lean , and other posters who may not agree with some things I feel, it was not arguing, but debate.
I enjoy it , and respect your opinions even if I disagree.

Difference is a broad head is typically going to have at least a 11/2 " cut where as a 6.5 if your lucky will get double expansion or a .528 cut that's one third a broadhead.  Your wound channel with a TTSX past 150 yards isn't going to be much more than the bullet width itself.  That's why a faster expanding bullet like a SST can kill quicker because you get some fragments that expand the wound cavity

How many grains is an arrow?
375 to 600 grains?
Its not comparable on any level.
You dont have expansion slowing down the travel, robbing kinetic energy instantly.
I dont know, I dont bow hunt, someday but not yet.

Mine run around 410 grains

Sitting around comparing arrows all day will never make the Indian more proficient...

IDK. If my ancestors would have had the best arrows back in the day.........there might be a few more of us around :D lol

swampie

Post back when you get it so we can check it out.

A 95gr solid with double caliber expansion will behave similarly to a 160-180gr soft point, as long as you get the rapid expansion.

Oftentimes, expansion isn't consistent or since the bullet doesn't fragment, the wound channels tend to be more straight-through, versus lead-based cores that will blow the frontal lead core apart radially, while the base with the remaining lead continues through the tissue and exits.

There are differing approaches to how to get solids to create a more destructive wound channel.

Pedals that peel back and boat-motor through
Mushrooming
Cylinder

Most rely on retaining weight for penetration, with different ways of causing tissue damage other than the permanent wound path, and several companies have their own ideas about what is better for different game applications, so you will see different expansion thresholds and expansion methods even, depending on what bullet line you are looking at.

Within 250yds, an 18" AR15 in 5.56 will still have expansion with the 70gr TSX load, and that bullet is a proven killer.  The solid copper and target bullets in 5.56 make the effort of going with 6.8 kinda pointless.

Again 223 is not allowed to hunt deer with in my state.

swampie

Pick any of the ones available that are legal, and go practice with it if you know for sure you will be limited to 250yds.

If you want more wiggle room with hit probability and sectional density, get 6.5 Grendel, go practice with it, and enjoy your new hog slayer.  You can get a case of 500 Wolf for $139.95 for practice if you want, and that load has been used to kill hogs already.  The 123gr SST has had the best results for DRT and affordability so far in brass-cased ammo, but not a lot have been shot with the cheaper PPU 120gr MPT.

Shooter skill level
Guide/spotter skill level
Bullet construction
Proper rifle and optics set up
LRF & Ballistics program + Kestrel

Those are more important than the cartridge.  People have and continue to do it with every center fire cartridge you listed.

If you can put a double supersonic piece of metal through the vitals of the animal, and the damage is enough to rapidly shut down their circulatory system, they will go down quickly.

WDM Bell killed multiple African Buffalo in one sitting with a .22 Savage High Power (5.6x52mm).  If only he would have had the internet back then to inform him of his capabilities and limitations.

Beware of the marksman who trains regularly, and challenges themselves continually with measurable performance increases with each range or field shooting session.

Sawmpie.

LR is the Super Moderator of the Grendel Forum.
Hes going to say whatever he can to try and sway you away from the 6.8
It seems to be his mission in life.

What he he wont tell you is things like the BC Hornady claims is inflated.
Its .462 not .510, according to real testing by Brian Litz of Applied Ballistics.
There have been quite a few bullet manufacturers that have adjusted their numbers based on Litz real world testing.
Will tell you you can use the 127 LRX, wont tell you it takes a 24in barrel to even move 2350fps, they are so long they take up to much case capacity.

As a reloader you will love the returns you get handloading the 6.8.
The Grendel is already maxed out and flattening primers with factory ammo.

The hunting bullet selection you will have that perform at 6.8 speed is second to no other variant.
The 6.8 has the most industry support in the hunting world of any AR caliber as this is where it shines.
It is the #1 caliber for deer and hogs in an AR
The 6.8 guys here are not as vocal, they dont have to be, the 6.8 is the gold standard in AR hunting.
Its what the 5.56 should have been.

Nice to see you admit that to hunt with a Grendel you need a Kestrel, a ballistics program, a guide or spotter, a range finder, high dollar optics.
All because if you dont put the bullet in exactly the right spot it wont do its job.
And all this for inside 300 yards.

It always strikes me as odd to see you quote Bell, when he was known for close up well planned head shots. He dissected the skulls and studied exactly where to shoot for brain kills.
He wasn't killing Water Buffalo at 400 yards with a .22
You advocate using to small a caliber on big game at distances most guys cant shoot at.
Then quote someone that was known for close up shots with small caliber.
Do you even think this stuff thru before you say it?
No, silly question, never mind

You can listen to novices and amateurs, or heed advice from people that have been doing this for decades.

I see why Pat Rogers no longer visits AR15.com though.

A Grendel wont push a 95g bullet fast enough to achieve the 2600fps at impact it takes for "the shock value" to play in either. 6.8 will do this out to 100yrds. I'm not real sure how much the shock value plays into effect in real life situations but it's nice to know it's legally available in a hunting caliber for the AR.

swampie

Swampie / OP

If you use your favorite search engine to find "95gr TTSX Kill Shot" you'll find some good visual aids.

<meat warning>

Meat

Also - there are other alternatives.  120gr here IIRC

More Meat

Regarding caliber vs caliber - I prefer sitting on the fence and watching the fight - though I've been known to egg it on.  I have no specific favorites but I do try to pay attention to "does it check all the boxes I listed?" and somewhat ignore check boxes I did not list.

Yes Lone Star Boars is sponsored by LWRC, Hornady, Cutting Edge, Armasight, Vortex and more. He shoots a 6.8

Those hog pictures are extremely impressive.

This is funny, I have been hunting elk since I was a small boy 50 years ago and every single elk I have shot over the years has been with a .270, I started hand loading when I was 14 years old and have been using the same exact load, I used 160 grain Nosler Partition bullets and have never had a problem bringing an elk down.

If you are having run offs with a .300 win mag, then your shot placement is piss poor!

Not me, good friend who runs a guide service and what he sees clients do .
.270's a great round
The point I was making was advising people to go out and shoot at Elk at 400 yards with a Grendel or a 6.8 for that matter.
I dont feel either are right for an ethical kill at the distance.

I don't shoot elk at 400 yards and have never shot at a big game animal over 100 yards, but that is just me, I am also a bow hunter and I don't shoot big game animals over 20-25 yards with my bow.

But this thread was not even about shooting at 400 yards, the OP was asking about a caliber out to 250 yards and it looks like he got the information he was looking for.  The .270 is 7mm, but carries a bigger charge behind it and carries good energy, I load 100 grain hollow points for ground squirrels and it is devastating on them.  This year I will be carrying my .300 blackout for deer and I don't expect to shoot over 75 yards for anything.

I do remember my father dropping a bull elk at close to 500 yards with his model 600 Remington, which is chambered in a .308 and has an 18 inch barrel!  I believe I was about 13-14 when he did that, I would not do it, but he did.  But talk about a rifle that will punch you in the shoulder!  I own it now since he has passed away

Oh really?

Wilson Combat 85gr TTSX 6.8
2920fps mv
BC .246

Impact speed at 100yds:  2549fps

Arbitrary "shock value" figures are just that.  You want DRT on a hog for half the money of a premium Barnes projectile, shoot them with an SST.

It's always good to run the numbers though to check these claims people are making.  What I've noticed over the years is that the majority of time, the ones making them haven't done independent research to find out that a lot of assumptions were just that, with no valid data.

It usually results on the approach of trying to equate muzzle velocity with on-target performance, without looking at BC.

You can push a low BC pill fast and get the same impact speed as a slower mv but higher BC pill at 100, and then the higher BC pill will continue to out-perform the lower BC pill as the distance increases.

Sorry to hear about your father.

I am going to take my 6.8 out this year for Elk in the Crazies.
But its a 22in barrel with 130gr Federal Fusions moving 2700fps at the muzzle.
Im planning on limiting my shots to 200 yards. Not that I cant make a 400 yard shot because I can.

You crack me up.
The OP said he's a handloader.
The 95 TTSX @ 2900 to 2950 which ever he loads to does it.
Your not paying attention.........
100gr AB does it too
110 AB does it
As well BC is meaningless at his 250 max yardage.

Good luck to you on your upcoming elk hunt, seriously.

The info from your elk guide buddy may be true, but a bad shot with 300 mag is just that a bad shot.
I'm sure he sees all kinds of ill prepared hunters.
I never got into the caliber war going on in this thread, but yall can debate all ya like.
Its still about training and shot placement, no matter the projectile whether at 100 or 400.

But alot of hunters shoot very seldom, that is ashamed.
Caliber be damned, a man can drop serious money on rifle, optics, and wants cheap ammo, and 3 zero shots.
That may not apply to anyone in this thread, but you know damn good and well that describes the average hunter.

I know a local guy who shoots 300 UM, in a custom rifle and good optic, with range finder.
He has a 600yd personal range and practices, he loves elk hunting, Your guide buddy would like him as a client.

There are way more projectile options for a hand loader with 6.5mm in the AR15.

This isn't even half of them:



Bottom row:

85gr Sierra HP Varminter
86gr GS Customs
90gr Speer TNT
95gr Hornady VMAX
95gr Lehigh Defense Controlled Chaos
95gr GS Customs
100gr Lapua FMJ Pelt saving bullet
100gr FMJ with Cannelure
100gr Nosler Partition
100gr Hornady Soft Point
100gr Barnes X
100gr AMAX
100gr Nosler Ballistic Tip
100gr Berger HPBT
100gr Barnes TTSX
100gr Scenar-L
105gr Pure Precision
107gr Sierra Match King
107gr SMK Moly
108gr Scenar
110gr Barnes Banded Solid
120gr Speer Hot Cor
120gr Norma FMJ
120gr SMK Moly
120gr SMK
120gr Barnes TSX BT
120gr Berger
120gr Scenar-L
120gr TTSX
120gr Hornady GMX

Middle row is 123-130gr, including the 127gr LRX which has been used already from 18" Grendel to take Oryx.  The claim made in this thread that it takes up too much capacity to work well in 6.5 Grendel is false, and you can see the video of the hunt on youtube.  The LRX expands down to 1600fps.

The 123gr SST is the most popular hunting bullet so far, with at least a 66% DRT record.  If you want to load an expensive bullet fast, you could do any of the lightweight solids, but the Lehigh Defense High Velocity Controlled Chaos is about the same price as a lot of cup and core bullets, so you can have solid and economical with it.

BC certainly does matter within 250yds, as a higher BC projectile will retain its energy longer.  It isn't just something that applies to long range shooting, especially when we are looking at the AR15 and shorter barrels.

The 2600 fps figure was from a link I posted from Nathan Foster of ballisticstudies.com it wasn't in regards to any caliber but a study on the new non lead alternatives like the GMX, etip and ttsx.  Foster's theory is that the mono bullets don't kill well unless they impact  at over 2600 fps or if you hit bone.  His theory, not mine I won't debate it, is that because these bullets retain all their weight they don't make much of a secondary wound cavity and with out the hydrostatic shock they are slow killers.  He actually advises that hunters use bullets like the SST, but laments that many places are forcing these non lead bullets to be used.

Some hog hunters prefer to use the Barnes and other solids when they encounter really large hogs, as it gives them more penetration through such a tough animal.

In most cases, a good bullet with high SD does the job just fine.

For static position of the animal, behind the ear shots are preferred on hogs.

For runners, a good vital zone shot works.  Hogs have a different vital zone when you look at their lungs.

There is an argument that they aren't any more tough than other animals, and that their lung arrangement makes getting a lung shot harder, so people confuse this with toughness.

I have a Rem 600 in .308 as well. No kidding I'd rather target practice with a 12 ga and slugs.

 

Yea, a lot of folks think hogs are bullet proof.
I hung hog and deer anatomy charts in out camp just for that reason.
The young teens are the ones that study em, older grumpy guys not so much.
Just come in to camp griping about hard to kill hogs, asking to borrow my old Marlin 444.
Think they need a big bore till I let em shoot it with a 305gr Corbon penetrator.

The 444 I have one and with 300 grain loads that thing kicks.  I don't mind shooting it off hand but I hate shooting it in.  I have to get it right in 8 to 10 shots or I am done. After that the 308 seems mild!

To be sure you can't hit the hog in the tail and expect to blow their eyes out and flip them over dead.  

What you do get IME with monoliths is a wound channel that greatly resembles a wiffle-ball bat if not quite that big around.  Little on the grip end tapering up gradually.  The bullets tend to work well whether a shoulder got in the way or not.  I'm sorry but you can't always control that.  Also I like a bullet that holds together - if nothing else it's convenient.

That thick 'scar plate' people refer to is generally only there on large hogs and it certainly isn't impenetrable.

The box as I understand it...

Fits in an AR-15.
>.223 to legally hunt whitetail.
Practical out to 250 yards.

6x45 fits inside the box. It is the most powerful or deadly? Not hardly, but it is reasonable.

I'm going with the 6.8 ARP and 95g TTSX bullets because.......

1. I can get more velocity from a 16" barrel (not 24") than any other option I have seen

2. I can achieve 2600fps at IMPACT from 100yrds or less

3. I can hold dead on, all the way out to 250yrds and still hit vitals.

4. IMHO there is no better bullet than a Barnes. I like them, they are killing machines and penetrate deep and hold together. JMHO

5. The cross sectional area is greater (slightly) than with a 6.5

&submitst=+Create+Chart+]Shooters calculator Click on "create chart"


I honestly see no reason why anyone would prefer the Grendel over the 6.8???? I understand BC but who's gonna shoot a deer at 600yrds with a Grendel??? I sure wouldn't. And who wants to carry an extra 8" of barrel??? No doubt the Grendel will kill deer but it's not the caliber for me.

Thank you all for your facts, opinions, and help.

swampie

What do you think the velocity will be with the 100gr ttsx from a 16" 6.5 Grendel? I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that you need an 24" barrel to shoot the Grendel.

2744fps from a 24" barrel according to this site: reloading data It's not an exact science but from what I've read on the forums.................the 6.8 does better with a 16" barrel. I KNOW the 95g TTSX from a 16" 6.8 ARP barrel will do slightly over 2900fps. I read (here on the forums) that a 6.5 is lucky to get 2600fps at the muzzle with a 16"er. You don't need a 24" barrel to shoot the Grendel but it is my personal opinion that you need more velocity to improve lethality.

swampie

"deadly" isn't so much about cartridge as it is about bullet....

You can take a solid monolithic non-expanding 416 Remington or 458 Lott and center punch a deer broadside thru both lungs.  That bugger is gonna run and run and run.  You've done a great job killing the hillside behind the deer.  Now take something like the little old 30-30 with a 150 grain fast expanding flat point and I'd wager the 30-30 drops the buck sooner than the 416....

If you take either the 6.8 or the 6.5 Grendel, and use the right bullet, it will be impressive.  Both of these really aren't super fast.  2700-2800 is modest by modern speeds.  Use a fairly lightly constructed, rapid expander like a Nosler Ballistic tip or a Hornady SST and have at it.  It will be all the killing power your need.  

This may be counter-intuitive, but using a super super premium bonded deep penetrator like an Accubond or Barnes X will likely show LESS killing power than the earlier mentioned fast expanders:  Deer aren't big, and SPC and Grendel speeds won't open those premiums up as fast as your Magnum rifles would.  You'll get less explosive opening, deeper penetration and less actual damage inside the deer (and a very very dead hillside again).

Match the bullet to the cartridge impact speed and the game.  it will turn out well.

Agree completely.  to many hunters are now using to tough a bullet.  I once saw a hunter carrying a 30-06 with 180 grain ttsx.  That bullet isn't going to be as effective on deer as a 150 grain sst.  the SSt in 150 grain will still completely penetrate a large bucks shoulder.  The tougher bullets should be left to bigger game.  Unfortunately the trend is to tougher and heavier bullets.

If you can't use a .223, like we can't in Virginia, then 6.8 would work.

6.8 has served me really well.  good to 330 yards with my 120gr SST loadings

I have an 18" Grendel that shoots factory 123gr ammo at 2530fps.