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DrDeath
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Posted: 8/20/2009 11:27:53 AM
What 223 deer hunting rounds do you guys use?
DanaHillen
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Posted: 8/20/2009 11:56:49 AM
I've killed a few with the Hornady 60 gr soft point.ALL were 1-shot kills and no deer traveled more than a dozen steps after being hit.
I did NOT try any shots over 50 or 60 yards and I was absolutely certain I could put the bullet where I wanted it to go.
The Hornady performed very well.
Dana
MouseGun87
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Posted: 8/20/2009 12:00:08 PM
I have used 64 gr SP, and 55 gr SP. But last year I went with 77 gr SMK (yeah, I know this is not a 'hunting bullet', but it is a hollow point and darn accurate). I killed one doe with the 77 gr SMK out of a 20" Bushmaster DCM with iron sight from 140-150 yards, kneeling. One frontal shot to the chest .... and it did this to the deer:

Entry wound (notice there is a lot of trauma on the upper section of the left front leg)


The trauma extended along the body (since it was a frontal shot).


There was also major trauma near the spine.


This is what the left under-arm looks like from the inside.


So the 77 SMK kills the deer effectively. But it also damage too much meat. So this year I will stick with a ballistic tip or soft tip bullet. But there is no question on the accuracy of the MatchKing paired with a DCM rifle.

Zoomer302
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Posted: 8/20/2009 12:49:29 PM
Not legal to hunt in my state with a 223. Not sure I would want to either - although those pics do show some catastrophic damage. I shoot deer with a 308, 30-06, 12 Ga. slug gun and a 50 cal muzzleloader. Most everyone I hunt with shoots a 30 cal of some sort. There's an occasional 270 or 7mm mag and maybe a 300 win mag or WSM if your over the cut corn fields() and have a long poke at one.

Not trying to start another caliber war here but with so many better choices out there, why would you want to use a 22?
DanParker
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Posted: 8/20/2009 2:53:41 PM
Originally Posted By Zoomer302:
Not legal to hunt in my state with a 223. Not sure I would want to either - although those pics do show some catastrophic damage. I shoot deer with a 308, 30-06, 12 Ga. slug gun and a 50 cal muzzleloader. Most everyone I hunt with shoots a 30 cal of some sort. There's an occasional 270 or 7mm mag and maybe a 300 win mag or WSM if your over the cut corn fields() and have a long poke at one.

Not trying to start another caliber war here but with so many better choices out there, why would you want to use a 22?

That question has been well answered to death on ARFCOM many, many times already. Let me respond with another question:

Define "better choice". If a given load has proven to be damned effective time and time again when properly used (just like any round should be), what would make for a "better" choice than that? Just how dead can you make a deer?
Zoomer302
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Posted: 8/20/2009 3:12:03 PM
Like I said - I dont want to start a caliber or interweb war with anyone. If you like it, are allowed to use it then by all means shoot what you like.

I (emphasis added) like a 150 - 168 grain Nosler Ballistic tip pushed out of a 308 or preferrably a 30-06.

I (emphasis added) consider a 55 grain A-max for use on deer a crime. It's a varmint bullet for Christs sake. Is it accurate..Yep. Can it kill a deer...Yep. But call a spade a spade there are "better choices" out there.
supremeweasel67
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Posted: 8/20/2009 3:49:05 PM
[Last Edit: 8/20/2009 3:52:14 PM by supremeweasel67]

Originally Posted By Zoomer302:
Like I said - I dont want to start a caliber or interweb war with anyone. If you like it, are allowed to use it then by all means shoot what you like.

I (emphasis added) like a 150 - 168 grain Nosler Ballistic tip pushed out of a 308 or preferrably a 30-06.

I (emphasis added) consider a 55 grain A-max for use on deer a crime. It's a varmint bullet for Christs sake. Is it accurate..Yep. Can it kill a deer...Yep. But call a spade a spade there are "better choices" out there.

Following the same logic, then a 308 or 30-06 is to light. Everyone should be shooting 300 RUM, 416 rigby's, 577s and so on.

I knew of an "Ol' Timer" who claimed he always used a 22 LR, because "Those fancy calibers were expensive", and a 22 would do the job just fine if you knew how to shoot.

Now, I usually use a 243/270/30-30/30-06/308 (depending on what I feel like carrying that day and type of terrain I am hunting), But I have been known to break out my 45-70, 300 RUM, .375 H&H Mag, 20 guage slug gun, 12 gauge slug gun, or even my 44 mag.


I have personally seen what a 223 does to "man size" targets at 300 meters. It did the job just fine.

So if someone wants to shoot it, then fine, to say there are better options out there, is the same as saying a Chevy is better than a Dodge, which is better than a Ford.
Not really, each have their advantages and disadvantages, it is just personal preference.

I started hunting with my 223 AR about 2 years ago (simply because I wanted to). It has worked for me.
Now I do prefer to shoot Winchester Ballistic Silver Tips.
I shoot them in all of the above calibers I can get them in.
I will tell you this, they make my 243 perform like my 308 or 30-06, with less thump to the shoulder.
I love them Werewolf Killers.
DanParker
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Posted: 8/20/2009 6:36:37 PM
[Last Edit: 8/20/2009 6:52:22 PM by DanParker]
Originally Posted By Zoomer302:
Like I said - I dont want to start a caliber or interweb war with anyone. If you like it, are allowed to use it then by all means shoot what you like.

You posed a question/challenge. I responded to it. If you didn't want it to be answered then you should have kept it to yourself.

I (emphasis added) like a 150 - 168 grain Nosler Ballistic tip pushed out of a 308 or preferrably a 30-06.

I (emphasis added) consider a 55 grain A-max for use on deer a crime.

Since no one here has said anything about the 55 grain A-Max (except you, that is) your indignation here is misplaced.

It's a varmint bullet for Christs sake.

And here's where you demonstrate topical ignorance. In the first place, .223 Remington is not a "bullet". It is a particular type of cartridge that uses the same diameter bullet (.224) as several other popular cartridges (22-250, 220 Swift, et al). Secondly, there is a vast array of different .224" bullets made that are designed for very different purposes. There are indeed some that are designed to fragment easily, and are intended for use in "varmint" rounds. Then again there are FMJ rounds that are intended for military use, recreational target shooting, etc. Then there are match bullets designed primarily with long-range accuracy in mind. And then there are the ones that are designed for controlled expansion and weight retention for use in hunting medium-to-large game like deer and hogs. The well-known Barnes X bullets and their replacements, the TSX/MRX lines for instance. Barnes even EXPLICITELY recommends their 52 grain and up (and one of their lighter ones, though I can't recall which) TSX .224" bullets in .223 Remington loads for hunting deer. There are several other brands/lines of .224" bullets designed for the same thing as well.

You really have no idea what you're talking about here in terms of the current state of .223 hunting rounds.

Is it accurate..Yep. Can it kill a deer...Yep. But call a spade a spade there are "better choices" out there.

I've already asked you to tell us what makes some of these other rounds "better choices" for hunting whitetail deer. Simply repeating the claim does not constitute an answer, no matter how ill-informed arrogance you couch it in.
Zoomer302
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Posted: 8/20/2009 7:18:39 PM
Very well written. Articulate, and to the point. I dont think I was being indignant though....
Like I said YOU want to hunt deer with a 22 go ahead. It's illegal where I'm from - in ALL its varieties.

Look, I realize that this is ARFCOM and we all love our AR's but I believe that a .308 150 - 168 grain ballistic tip is a far better choice for delivering terminal performance to a whitetails boiler room than a 5.56 NATO or 223 Rem is - regardless of bullet type construction. You dont. I really dont give a shit what you use - that's why it's your choice, but it's not for me. Me, I'll take a .308 diameter bullet thank you.

You are indeed correct in that I have no knowledge about the current state of 223 hunting rounds, nor do I care to find out, but dont assume that I dont know the difference between a 22-250 and a 22 short. I've been reloading for everything I shoot for over 20 years and am more than a little obsessed with accuracy



Thought you might like this one too (both with a 308 too!!)



Cant we just argue over how much better a 45 acp is over a 9mm? Or how much better the Giants are over the Cowboys?
DanParker
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Posted: 8/20/2009 7:38:47 PM
[Last Edit: 8/20/2009 7:42:42 PM by DanParker]
Originally Posted By Zoomer302:
Very well written. Articulate, and to the point. I dont think I was being indignant though....

Really?

Originally Posted By Zoomer302:
I (emphasis added) consider a 55 grain A-max for use on deer a crime. It's a varmint bullet for Christs sake.

Sounds pretty indignant to me.

Like I said YOU want to hunt deer with a 22 go ahead. It's illegal where I'm from - in ALL its varieties.

Look, I realize that this is ARFCOM and we all love our AR's but I believe that a .308 150 - 168 grain ballistic tip is a far better choice for delivering terminal performance to a whitetails boiler room than a 5.56 NATO or 223 Rem is - regardless of bullet type construction. You dont.

Well, that is the subject of this thread.

I really dont give a shit what you use - that's why it's your choice, but it's not for me. Me, I'll take a .308 diameter bullet thank you.

Then we're still left with why you bothered to type...

"but with so many better choices out there, why would you want to use a 22?"

...if you don't give a shit. Or even why you're in this thread to begin with. Pretty disingenuous of you. Again, don't ask a question if you don't want an answer.

You are indeed correct in that I have no knowledge about the current state of 223 hunting rounds, nor do I care to find out,

Then posting opinions as though you know what you're talking about is pretty foolish.

but dont assume that I dont know the difference between a 22-250 and a 22 short.

Uhhh....who the hell said anything about a .22 short? That makes even less sense than your comment about the 55 gr. A-Max. Strawman much?

I've been reloading for everything I shoot for over 20 years and am more than a little obsessed with accuracy

Good for you. So what?

Cant we just argue over how much better a 45 acp is over a 9mm? Or how much better the Giants are over the Cowboys?

If either of those were the subject of this thread, then yeah. But they're not. We're here talking about .223 Remington for deer hunting.
Zoomer302
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Posted: 8/20/2009 7:46:42 PM
I'm done with you Clyde. Have fun with your AR and your 55 Grain Spire points in the woods.
DrDeath
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Posted: 8/20/2009 9:25:58 PM
Hey guys Im the OP , so let's try to get back on the subject - now what I found interesting is that someone mentioned that lighter 223 bullets (50-52 grainers) are reccomended for deer hunting. I know my guns prefer black hills 52 g match ... So can anyone confirm this?
DanParker
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Posted: 8/20/2009 10:35:24 PM
[Last Edit: 8/21/2009 12:46:31 AM by DanParker]
Originally Posted By DrDeath:
Hey guys Im the OP , so let's try to get back on the subject - now what I found interesting is that someone mentioned that lighter 223 bullets (50-52 grainers) are reccomended for deer hunting. I know my guns prefer black hills 52 g match ... So can anyone confirm this?

I never left the subject. But I was off by one grain. Looking at my Barnes Reloading Manual No. 4 right now, and the 53 gr. TSX in .223 Rem. is identified as recommended for game from coyotes to deer. Interestingly, they also identify the 45 gr. TSX as good for 'yotes, pronghorn and deer. Sounds a bit light on energy to me though, even with an avg. muzzle velocity of ~3,300 ft./sec.
jcoffman55
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Posted: 8/21/2009 12:32:51 AM
Last year I shot two with AR's. My department was evaluating two possible duty loads and I decided to you know "field test" them. The first was the red box 55 grain tap police stuff. As you may know, it is basically a plastic tipped 55 grain bullet. To be honest, I did not expect much out of this bullet and I was a little worried. I picked my shot which was broadside on a young buck. I got him right in the heart. The bullet struck one rib on the way in and there was no exit wound. When I field dressed the deer there was no damage below the diaphragm. When I got the thing home and opened up the chest cavity, everything in there fell out in a red pudding on the floor. Nothing in the chest cavity was anything more than mush including the heart, lungs and esophagus. No wonder he dropped after only running about ten yards.


The second was with the red box 75 grain tap police ammo. I was a little more racy with this ammo because I figured I'd get quite a bit more penetration. I actually made a marginal shot on another young buck a little too far back and a little too low. It was still a fatal hit though and the deer went down after about 20 yards. I could see it laying in the leaves from my stand, so I finished it off with one to the temple to end its suffering. As I field dressed the deer I noticed that my bullet punctured the diaphragm as it traveled through the body. It had not struck any ribs upon entry, but did strike one on exit. There was a complete pass through. The exit wound was about 1.5 inches across. When I opened up the chest cavity, there was a fair amount of damage to the rear of the lungs and diaphragm with a nice, strait tract and good size exit. Strangely I did not find any bullet fragments, but then again I didn't run all the guts through a strainer or anything like that. As I said before, this wasn't my best shot ever, but the bullet did about the same damage as a 30-30 would have done on a similar shot, Well maybe a little less. I will be hunting deer again this year with my AR, but I will be using my old stand by which is a Winchester 64 grain PP over a good dose of IMR 4895. I hope this is the kind of thing you were looking for.
"Ya'll can go to hell, I'm going to Texas"
wessono
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Posted: 8/21/2009 11:36:24 AM
I used the Federal XMAE223SP with great success last year. One shot behind the front leg at 25 yards. The deer took 3 small steps and fell over.
DrDeath
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Posted: 8/21/2009 3:05:45 PM
Its surprising that the lighter bullets perform better
DanParker
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Posted: 8/21/2009 3:17:43 PM
Originally Posted By DrDeath:
Its surprising that the lighter bullets perform better

I don't think he said they performed better. He said the hit with the lighter round was a good heart shot, while the one with the 75 gr. was too far back and too low (possibly a non-vitals hit). I'd expect that to produce a less-desirable result no matter what round you were using. That's why the consistenly repeated mantra that shot-placement is key.
ProCharger
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Posted: 8/22/2009 12:28:53 PM
Originally Posted By Zoomer302:
Not legal to hunt in my state with a 223. Not sure I would want to either - although those pics do show some catastrophic damage. I shoot deer with a 308, 30-06, 12 Ga. slug gun and a 50 cal muzzleloader. Most everyone I hunt with shoots a 30 cal of some sort. There's an occasional 270 or 7mm mag and maybe a 300 win mag or WSM if your over the cut corn fields() and have a long poke at one.

Not trying to start another caliber war here but with so many better choices out there, why would you want to use a 22?
That is definitely a false statement. New York has similar caliber restrictions as Missouri. ANY centerfire cartridge is legal for big game in New York. If you don't believe me visit the New York DEC website.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/8310.html

DanParker
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Posted: 8/22/2009 1:03:46 PM
Originally Posted By ProCharger:
Originally Posted By Zoomer302:
Not legal to hunt in my state with a 223. Not sure I would want to either - although those pics do show some catastrophic damage. I shoot deer with a 308, 30-06, 12 Ga. slug gun and a 50 cal muzzleloader. Most everyone I hunt with shoots a 30 cal of some sort. There's an occasional 270 or 7mm mag and maybe a 300 win mag or WSM if your over the cut corn fields() and have a long poke at one.

Not trying to start another caliber war here but with so many better choices out there, why would you want to use a 22?
That is definitely a false statement. New York has similar caliber restrictions as Missouri. ANY centerfire cartridge is legal for big game in New York. If you don't believe me visit the New York DEC website.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/8310.html

So he's 0 for 2 in the Know What The Hell You're Talking About Before Spouting Off category, and hunts without even knowing one of his state's most fundamental regulations. Great.
GlockFace
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Posted: 8/24/2009 8:02:53 AM
Win 64gr power point bullet does the job.
shootemup123
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Posted: 8/26/2009 12:56:22 PM
I have used Federal 55gr. Gameking BTHP with very good results.
quick1911
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Posted: 8/26/2009 2:26:49 PM
When I lived in Missouri factory Winchester 64gr Power Point worked great. Shot placement is key with any caliber not just .223

If I could use .223 now I would try Barnes 55gr or 62gr TSX.
DrDeath
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Posted: 8/27/2009 8:08:43 AM
Some of us do not reload , so what Factory loadings are the best?
DanParker
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Posted: 8/27/2009 2:18:05 PM
Originally Posted By DrDeath:
Some of us do not reload , so what Factory loadings are the best?

As indicated, many people like the Winchester Power Point loads. If you want to try the Barnes TSX bullets then Corbon loads them in their DPX line.
quick1911
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Posted: 8/27/2009 11:43:32 PM
Originally Posted By DanParker:
Originally Posted By DrDeath:
Some of us do not reload , so what Factory loadings are the best?

As indicated, many people like the Winchester Power Point loads. If you want to try the Barnes TSX bullets then Corbon loads them in their DPX line.


Winchester Power Point 64gr work great and are not very expensive.

Looks like Silver State Armory also loads the Barnes TSX bullet.

JEBsGear
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Posted: 8/28/2009 1:10:23 PM
Well Im glad I fell into this thread. I am getting ready to hunt dear for the first time in many years. I have always hunted with a shotgun in the LP of Michigan. Living in Alabama I know many people hunt with the 30 06, 7mm mag, etc, etc. I really cant afford a new dear rifle and have a very nice 20 inch AR that I wanted to hunt with this year. It seems the take away from this conversation for me is that....

shot placement

round choice

is the key to successful .223 dear hunting. Ilike to think as we all do I shoot great with my ARs because they are mine and I have grown up shooting them since a wee lad in the Army. Maybe I will post some pictures of I get to take on this year. The last thing I want to do is shoot one and not kill it.
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