I didn't know if I should post this on the Armory-Tactical Gear thread or here.....but here ya go....

First off I am taking my official Ham test the end of the week:

I would like a military grade handheld, dual band, waterproof, do everything radio.  I would like to utilize a military style PTT / TEA system and a Sordin MSA or Peltor headset.  I do not spending a good chunk of money....less than $1,000 on the radio.  I like Motorola, Icom and Yeasu brands.

Please advise on what you would recommend....What device I would need.  Thank You.


ie:  Buy the Motorola ?; with a Peltor Comtac II and a PTT with a ? mating plug....

first question:
To whom are you planning on talking? Seems like overkill to chat back and forth complaining about how much your back hurts on the local repeaters.

second question:
What kind of terrain? This will dictate the band(s) that will work best.


There's no such thing as a "Do-Everything-WELL-Radio" there are some "kinda do everything" radios, and a lot of "do everything, but nothing well" radios.

Additional reading:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_10_22/649039_.html
http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=47545.0
ncairsoft.org/forum/showthread.php?15479-IMPEDANCE-Issues-SOLVED!

Honestly though, there are cheaper ways to play airsoft delta-force ninja.

^^^^ what he said

Here is your military radio for less than $1000. Anything else is stolen or from Vietnam.

We do have prc 153's which is the same as a Motorola xts2500, but they are not dual band. There are other pros and cons about them but Motorola's don't make good "intro" radios.

For less than $1000 there are ham radios that provide text messaging, poss tracking, digital capabilities and are much easier to program and accessories will be more plentiful and cheaper.

As someone who's livelihood has been military radios for the better part of a decade,I have never needed the ruggedness or waterproof abilities that so many seek for amateur radios.

I'ma Kenwood-Koolaid Drinker....but if I were looking for what you were looking for....I'd try one of these:

http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/ht/5270.html

http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/ht/0060.html

http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/ht/0008.html

here's a list of most all aval HT's on the mkt

oh and....you prolly wanna check this one out too!
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_10_22/672661_The_HT_thread.html

Good Luck on the Test(s)!

You and everyone else in the survival and tactical gear forums.
Here's your radio:
http://www.thalescomminc.com/datasheets/Thales%20MBITR.pdf

Or you can make a realistic assessment of the market options, your actual communications needs and budget, and make a choice that's actually viable.

So start by answering the following questions:

What radio service are you needing to use?
Who do you need to talk to?
What is your realistic budget?
How critical are your communications needs?

very

 

And did you realize that military grade handhelds cost around $12,000?

Yes, I know the Thales and the MBITR and various military stuff is quite costly....

Terrain: Hills but no mountains.  Texas and Louisiana regions.

Use:  Talking with other guys, less than 2 to 5 miles range.  Might be in duplicate as I have other guys I camp/hunt with....we would be using the family band in this case.

Budget: lets say a solid $600.00 or less on the radio.

Other Use:  want to be able to use in case of emergency.  Be able to its full power and able to reach someone many miles away in case of need.   Don't need text messaging, gps, etc.

Thanks to all.

A few miscellaneous items to cover:
You're making the mistake everyone that isn't knowledgeable about communications makes... asking "what radio do I buy" instead of asking "what kind of communications do I need, and are realistically possible" and then finding the radio service and the gear to facilitate that.

"Many miles away" of range from handheld radios IS NOT going to happen, regardless of what radios you buy.  It's physics.

Handheld to handheld, somewhere between 1/2 mile and 1 1/2 to 2 miles things are going to get really rough.  If both users are standing on hilltops, then you'll have more potential range.

Repeaters exist to facilitate longer range communications for handheld/portable and mobile radios.  Repeaters are an option in the amateur service, GMRS, and land mobile services.

IF all the people you will be talking to are going to be licensed amateur radio operators, AND what you're using the radios for is compatible with the amateur service, then amateur radio certainly opens up a lot of possibilities.  If that's not true, then need to explore options for other radio services like MURS, GMRS, or Land Mobile Radio.

Sounds like MURS is what you really want. Doesn't sound like Amateur Radio is exactly what you and your buddies want.

Find some rugged commercial blue-dot (or whatever color dot) radios and have fun.

I have a Sordin to Motorola XTS5000 TEA cord.  (amongs others)
They are expensive (the cord and radio) and they are good.
Yes, you can find deals.
And yes, they are tough, high quality radios that are usually better quality than your average mil radio of the like.  But they will run in the $500+ range.
That, and a royal pain in the ass to program, and no programing on the run.
The TEA cord for the Sordins to XTS5K will also work on many other Motorola P25 radios.  They will set you back an easy $250.  And that's for other radios too. Motorola has by far the best connector for a shoulder mike/connection cord hands down.  Everything else will break if you are hard on your gear, and sometimes not even all that hard for some.
And once you've programmed a Motorola and learn your way around that, everything else is "ahem.....amateur work".
I can't believe I said that.
As far as mil radios, anything 10 to 15 years old and newer will typically be stolen gear. You won't necessarily get in trouble but a CID, NCIS, or AFOSI Special Agent will come and "recover" that radio.  Ask me how I know.
And anything older than that would be on the heavy and out dated side.
So for a current mil grade hand held for tactical comms, a Motorola VHF or UHF it is.
Besides any XTS model should fit the bill or MTS, HT, JT Astro.  And they are a ton of Moto gear out there.  That proliferation of Moto gear does ofset some shortcomings when we get into programming issues.  
Of, by the way, single band models.  The only Moto with dual band capabilties are the new APX 7000 models.  They are branded 7000 because it reflects the price  at around $7000 and up a piece!!!
The Icom ID92D is a pretty robust dual band radio with a "tougher" than typical ham radio microphone connection.  And plus it's d-star digital.  A mode not typically monitored (scanned) so it's somewhat private sort of speak.
ETA:  Get your ham ticket.  Its still the best bang for your buck by far.



Then get your feet wet and learn your radios.





I get my gear at no cost for me.  Just need to submit a requisition and voila.  Just needed to disclose that fact as you are footing your expenses on my recommendations.
 

Military grade…Harris is probably the best option for that (though you may be able to find some Icom's floating around).

I'd recommend anything made by /\/\otorola or Icom (LMR side) as far as ruggedness and simplicity of operation (note I did not say simplicity of programming).
The Motorola HT750, HT1000, and GP200 models are my favorites (the GP300 is not a bad option either). The Icom F21's, F4021's, and F4GS radios are my favorite Icoms.

I'm a UHF guy. 95% of the time you'll never notice the difference between UHF and VHF outdoors. UHF duplexers are just much more convient for portable repeaters (whether it be lmr, ham, or GMRS). GMRS is the band that shares stuff with license free FRS…but at a considerable power increase.

Most of the commercial stuff has options for speaker/mics, headsets, and other doodads and doohickey's though a lot of the commercial radio connectors have made it over to ham equivalents.

Yeah, I wouldn't even bother trying to get anything modern military, maybe a PRC126/128 is about as "new" as you are gonna find and for what they go for I really wouldn't bother. Forget about an MBITR, even though Harris do have "clear" versions I don't think they sell to civilians. Realistically commercial high band VHF or UHF is your best bet, and for the ranges you want in the terrain you want I'd look at a repeater system. 6m might get you a bit more range simplex, but the antennas would be BIG, especially for handhelds.

I agree that mil grade stuff probably isn't needed in your intended use (mine either).



As a lot of the guys said, having someone to talk to is key.  So far
it's just me and my GF, as the other guys I train/hang with haven't got
into comms yet.  I have used my comms setup a bit over the last few
years, but in a different setting...a race boat team.  We use Motorola
CP-200 UHF radios for our pit to boat comms.  I have a set of swat-tac2
headphones with boom mic and the PTT that works quite well.  If/when the
SHTF, I'll use the same setup as part of my rig.  The CP-200 radios are
available to cover UHF or VHF frequencies.  I have the programming
cable and software (from Ebay) to program the radios, so you can make
the channels anything you want within the range the radios cover.  For
instance, my UHF radio is currently programmed for our itinerant freqs
for racing, but I can also put in ham freqs.  The radio will work from
438-470MHz, so I can have ham and non-ham freqs.  This gives me the
ability to talk to my group, and/or on ham freqs or repeaters should I
have the need, just by rotating a pre-programmed dial.  No numbers, no
keypad to mess with.





Same could be done with the VHF version of the radio.  You could program
some channels on 2m ham freqs, and other channels on MURS or even
marine VHF freqs.  Gives a lot of flexibility, depending on what you
think you will need.



Going forward, I have also thought about adding FT-60r's to my kit, so that I could take advantage of the cross-band repeat feature of a mobile radio with more power and taller antenna parked nearby any area I might be in.  Because the FT-60's are 70cm/2m, they could be used this way to extend the range for my group could talk.

Given your requirements: 2-5 miles in hilly/broken terrain you should really look at some sort of repeater system. Handheld to handheld might get you 2-3 miles (terrain dependent) if you are lucky. But if you can leave a vehicle with cross-band repeater (2m/440) radio parked on a nearby high point (hill) with a decently elevated antenna you can greatly increase your coverage.

http://www.gigaparts.com/Product-Lines/VHF-UHF-Radios_2/Yaesu-FT-8800R.html?gclid=CNLJv_aN9b0CFTIV7AodMycA1Q

Also this might be of use:




More charts here

I would stridently disagree with most of those figures.

In a physics book...

I'm not sure any of those are accurate.

Go take it up with the hfpack folks. I generally think they are average to somewhat pessimistic figures, you can certainly do better in some cases, and worse in others. I think those numbers are far more accurate than the 30 mile ranges quoted on blisterpack FRS/GMRS boxes I've seen.

Is there absolutely any engineering at all behind that claim?

SURE

take em to outer space

So free space path loss is a major factor.

I'm not running calculations for HF (5W on a good day has a several hundred mile path loss factor on a good day).

Where gonna be talking about VHF/UHF HT's assuming LOS (these are path loss calculations).

2m (5W)˜65 miles

MURS (2W)˜ 40 miles

70 cm (4W)˜ 19 miles

GMRS (4W)˜ 19 miels

FRS (1/2 W)˜ 3.5 miles

Now all that is assuming the receivers in the receiving radios can hear a -75 dBm signal. For FRS I used a -70 dBm signal. Most ham radios will hear a -75 dBm signal, most commercial radios will hear a -80 dBm signal or weaker. (GMRS and MURS HT's are commercial radios generally).

These figures seem overly pessimistic.  A Yaesu FT-60 should hear a -123 dBm (0.16 uV) signal on 2m and a -121 dBm (0.2 uV) signal on 70cm (for example).

I can't actually find where Yaesu lists the specs for their HT receivers.

Icom lists theirs as .18 µV or less on their dual band HT's. Me an a few friends have been meaning to test a few HT's…we've just never had the time to hook them up to signal generator. Might do that at some point. For most radios however, what we would call full quieting is a around a -70 dBm at least that's what I've noticed in the field. Haven't hooked anything up to a signal generator yet though.

You can find specs for Yaesu radios in the owner's manuals.


A full-quieting signal will be substantially stronger than this though.

...and this many posts later the OP is thinking one or more of the following things:

"But, but, but, in the movies they can always talk to whoever they want, wherever they want..."

and/or

"Stupid hams, always having to make everything so complicated..."

and/or

"Holy crap, I didn't realize how much TEA wants for some wire, a few connectors and a pushbutton! "

I think they are fairly representative of class of radios under general conditions, at least based on my experience, just make sure you are reading the chart right (red bar is good comms, yellow bar is marginal etc). And understand the major contribution to actual VHF range (or lack therof) is the local terrain. If I really want to see what a radio will do I use radio mobile and then go test it and adjust the model to match reality. Generally Handheld-Handheld or Vehicle-handhel ranges are a few miles where I live, depending entirely on terrain. Of course I can hit repeaters 100 miles away with my HT too, but they are 8000 feet higher than I am.

I have had this conversation with so many locals looking to get into it, and with guys I go hunting with... They just think because its a "military" radio its magically gonna provide cell phone like comms with 0 infrastructure.

The gain increases induced by green paint are well documented.

Yes, and the "o" color is soooo powerful it is the color that cannot even be mentioned...

Fuck yeah, that's why its soo toxic

Thanks for the link. I can use those charts for an intro doc I'm working up.

 

look at this water proof dstar fm radio led light fits the budget
















 
 
 

Most manufactures make semi-water proof handhelds. I say semi because they are usually only rated for like 1m for 3 min or 30 min or something similar. I've got a Yaesu FT-270, great radio but for as often as I use VHF (which is about once a month) it doesn't get used as much as it should. Fairly solid radio though. If I didn't have a literal box of HT750's I'd buy the FT-277 (UHF version).

VHF versus UHF, they are both highly reliant on line of sight. My personal opinion, UHF is the better band for local comms 90% of the time. HT to HT, a 4 or 5 W HT will talk beyond the LOS horizon. One can have more gain in a UHF antenna that is roughly the same size as a VHF antenna. The added gain (and antenna size factor) can easily make up for path loss differences. All in all, I think it just comes down to personal preference.

The Standard Horizon HX370S is an interesting radio.  Since it's Part 80 *and* Part 90 FCC type accepted, it can be legally operated on marine, land mobile and amateur frequencies.  It can't be legally operated on MURS frequencies though.

http://www.standardhorizon.com

OP if you really want a multi-band radio that is "Mil-spec" check out the Thales Liberty. Yes they do sell the Liberty to civilians (those who wipe their asses with $100 bills). The Liberty retails around $5000.

If I were you I would look at getting some older Motorola equipment. Check out some Astro Saber III's, HT1000's, HT1250's or an XTS3000. Just be aware with of the required technology for programming old equipment and the corresponding prerequisites.  

I clicked on this thread hoping to find a picatinny rail to mount on my Baofeng UV5R.

The Sith were soooo powerful as well....both best left out of the conversation

The Liberty is a pretty amazing looking radio. Some day when I've got FU money maybe I'll get one

I'm interested. Good comments. My style is bafung , spares, accessories, high quality antennas, and a car rig to act as a repeater when hunting/hiking apart.

Here's what we do for hunting, skiing, or whatever we feel like doing.


Despite what most people think…most portable UHF repeaters can be built for less than the price of a dual band mobile radio…including the duplexers.

Darn those orbiting FCC Satellite's! Always checking for the correct type approval.

The Russian federation has Icom F80Ts for 119.00 plus 20.00 shipping on the bay.

RS

Why don't you walk us through building one

I second this.  I would love to see a build thread on your repeater.  

ahem....3rd

gm300 UHF version ~$50 x2 $100
notch filter ~$50
coax ~$50
antenna ~$50

$250 using surplus /\/\otorola gear.

Yeah it is a really nice radio. Some day in the future it sure would be nice to have a Liberty.

Some things seem to be more waterproof than they are claimed to be. I had a Yaesu VX-5R for many years, and it was mightily abused. The VW Bug I drove at the time had a bad sunroof leak. I had left the radio on the floorboard of the car and forgot about it for a weekend. I came back out after a very rainy weekend to 4" of water inside my VW, and the VX-5 was pretending to be a submarine. It survived with no problem aside from two of the battery drop-in charger contacts corroding away(ugly and green when pulled out of the water, eventually fell off later on). Yaesu listed the radio as MIL-STD-810 compliant, no IP rating was given.



I don't worry much about Yaesu rigs and water anymore

 

One of my fav radios...