Hah!  Now I know why you have different dimensions of comb...for different uses for each cell.

That's pretty darn cool.

I just started on "Beekeeping For Dummies"...seems pretty informative.

Originally Posted By Duranda1: Hah!  Now I know why you have different dimensions of comb...for different uses for each cell. That's pretty darn cool. I just started on "Beekeeping For Dummies"...seems pretty informative.

Yes, it's a good book.

And the worker bees build the size cells in the numbers they want for more workers (female, non-fertile bees) , for drone (male bees) and specialized cells for replacement queens.

The queen measures the cell with her front legs and lays the proper egg for that type of bee in the cell based on the cell's size.

The more you find out about how they work, and how complex their society is, the more amazing it becomes.

Kitties

P.S.  Now you begin to see why I kept ranting about the wax strips and my bees not handling them well.  They built cells the size of moon craters--they were basically lazy and just built these gigantic cells to keep from doing more work (or so I assume).  It was a mess.

Because of the palstic?  I thought there was wax foundation laid in on the plastic.

Originally Posted By Duranda1: Because of the palstic?  I thought there was wax foundation laid in on the plastic.

No, I don't think we're talking about the same thing.  Okay I keep editing to try to make this confusion more clear, and I'm probably just making it muddier.


If you use plastic foundation, which I should probably refer to as plastic "comb" or Permacomb (the main brand that I know of), the cells will be the size the cells ARE--you will likely have to buy brood comb and/or drone comb made of plastic.  And I think some people coat their plastic foundation (permacomb) with wax, which to me kinda seems like a redundancy cuz you aren't saving the labor of installing wax--one of the main reasons to use permacomb--but someone here in this thread uses permacomb--I'll have to go back and look--and would be the one to ask about those specifics.  I think they do this coating of the plastic comb with wax for various reasons.  One reason is to get the bees to accept the plastic comb better.  Some beekeepers do great with the plastic comb.  Other beekeepers have said they have trouble with the bees being willing to accept this plastic comb.


When you use wax foundation: you buy beeswax sheets and install them into the frames, they come pre-printed with little hexagonal "cells"--these are just starting points for the bees and get the bees kinda "going" the way you want.  The bees then build the comb entirely out of wax from the diagram on the foundation sheet.  The bees will tend to follow the pattern, and make a nice, even comb with the cell size of your preference.  HOWEVER there are minor differences in cell sizes even on the same comb, and the bees create them this size for the reasons I suggested above--to control the amount of worker brood and drone brood that the colony produces.

We have also spoken of small cell foundation, both in plastic and wax:  I make special effort to order "small cell foundation" which is beeswax sheets imprinted with cells that are about 4.9mm across rather than the 5.2 that most beekeepers use.  THIS IS FOR A DIFFERENT REASON ENTIRELY.  THEN all the cells--both worker and drone--will be OVERALL SMALLER but they will still vary according to what the bees decide they need--drone cells will be larger than worker cells within this smaller parameter.  The point of this is to produce a smaller bee.  A smaller bee takes a couple days less to grow and mature from egg to mature bee, and thus interrupts the life cycle of the varroa mite, which develops within the larvae of the bee.   SMALL CELL FOUNDATION  is used for varroa control by SOME beekeepers.  I am one of them.  But even within this small cell foundation, the bees still build the cells slightly different sizes to maintain proper population controls/ratios of worker bees to drone bees, etc.


WHEN you use wax strips:  Instead of giving them a whole sheet of wax that fills the entire frame, you're basically just giving the bees an inch or an inch and a half of wax at the top of the frame to get them headed in the right direction, and they have to build all the comb themselves, without the little hexagonal "guidelines" to influence them.  THIS was when I had problems.  My bees, once they got past the edge of the wax strips, started building all kinds of wonky cells--an inch wide, etc.  It was just ridiculous.  They got lazy.  They rebelled.  Some of the frames they built the comb across three or four frames going the wrong way--it was a mess.  Had to clean all that out and lose all their work.


Okay have I confused you more?

The wax cells on Permacomb--the bees gotta work with that, period.  With wax, the little cell imprints are kinda like the Pirate Code--"really more like guidelines."
Don't overcomplicate it now.  I shouldn't have said anything.  Now I've just got you confused.  Sorry.

This will all be much clearer when I get the chance to build some equipment and take pics while doing so.

Maybe the person who uses the permacomb will take some pics of his stuff took, if he has digital camera capability.  Good to have lots of viewpoints.


Kitties

Originally Posted By uxb: Dang it!  I wish this freakin computer did not remember the last person to post from here.  Grrrr.  This is Kitties, not uxb. Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: Originally Posted By raygixxer89: Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: Originally Posted By raygixxer89: Who do I contact to get rid of a bee hive that is located inside a rotted railroad tie? I was outstide cutting some branches and was attacked and stung several times. I don't want to use poison because I would like to harvest the comb if possible. There isn't enough room inside a railroad tie for a colony of honeybees.  You almost certainly are dealing with yellowjackets (google for pics so you can see the difference).  Just kill them--spray at night when they can't see. Trust me,I grew up with wasps and bees,these are bees. What's the difference between honey-bees and regular bees? I thought they all made honey. I can walk up to the rr tie and watch them come and go. The rr tie is rotted out in the middle,the opening is about 4 inches in diameter. Google Images will give you a pic of "honeybee" and "yellowjacket"--they are NOT the same thing.   Beekeeper is right.  There are BIG differences in yellow jackets and honeybees--though they look somewhat alike, they are nothing alike in behavior.  And I just clued in that you said "rotted out" railroad tie.  These are almost certainly yellow jackets, since yellow jackets nest in the ground, and a rotted out railroad tie would be far more akin to the "ground" than the type of place honeybees would colonize.

No!NO!NO! I know the difference between bees and wasps! These are bees! I have a few wasp nests hanging from the soffits on my house! The ones I'm talking about are bees! The rail road tie is rotted in the middle,it's about 3 feet in length and is part of a decorative barrier in my back-yard. this tie is in between 2 ties that are placed length-wise and it goes into the ground. I can see the bees coming and going whenever I'm in the yard. They are bees.

Originally Posted By raygixxer89: Originally Posted By uxb: Dang it!  I wish this freakin computer did not remember the last person to post from here.  Grrrr.  This is Kitties, not uxb. Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: Originally Posted By raygixxer89: Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: Originally Posted By raygixxer89: Who do I contact to get rid of a bee hive that is located inside a rotted railroad tie? I was outstide cutting some branches and was attacked and stung several times. I don't want to use poison because I would like to harvest the comb if possible. There isn't enough room inside a railroad tie for a colony of honeybees.  You almost certainly are dealing with yellowjackets (google for pics so you can see the difference).  Just kill them--spray at night when they can't see. Trust me,I grew up with wasps and bees,these are bees. What's the difference between honey-bees and regular bees? I thought they all made honey. I can walk up to the rr tie and watch them come and go. The rr tie is rotted out in the middle,the opening is about 4 inches in diameter. Google Images will give you a pic of "honeybee" and "yellowjacket"--they are NOT the same thing.   Beekeeper is right.  There are BIG differences in yellow jackets and honeybees--though they look somewhat alike, they are nothing alike in behavior.  And I just clued in that you said "rotted out" railroad tie.  These are almost certainly yellow jackets, since yellow jackets nest in the ground, and a rotted out railroad tie would be far more akin to the "ground" than the type of place honeybees would colonize.   No!NO!NO! I know the difference between bees and wasps! These are bees! I have a few wasp nests hanging from the soffits on my house! these are paper wasps. Paper wasps look NOTHING like yellow jackets or other "bee-like" wasps.  Those giant yellow sand hornets the size of your thumb--those are wasps.  There are LOTS of kinds of wasps, and only a few kinds look like the ones hanging from your soffits.  Did you look at the pic of the yellow jacket I posted next to the honeybees?  At a distance of two or three feet they look almost EXACTLY alike to someone who is not a beekeeper. The ones I'm talking about are bees! The rail road tie is rotted in the middle,it's about 3 feet in length and is part of a decorative barrier in my back-yard. this tie is in between 2 ties that are placed length-wise and it goes into the ground. I can see the bees coming and going whenever I'm in the yard. They are bees.

Okay, they may be bees.  But all bees are not the same, and all bees are not honeybees.  And although the technical designation is "wasp", most people consider yellow jackets to be bees.  The simple fact that you were attacked and stung several times without provocation is part of the "uncharacteristic for honeybees" behavior.  But it is not uncharacteristic for yellow jackets.   Honeybees do not nest in the ground, or in anything that is "like" ground.  Yellow jackets and some other types of bees nest in the ground.  

There is nothing we can do to convince you.  You are going to have to get a pest control person or a beekeeper to come out there and look at the nest for you.  

raygixxer89:

I have changed my mind.

They are Africanized killer honeybees.  You are going to die.  You have no choice but to leave me all your guns.

Kitties

height=8

Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: Stuff about moving bees.

Awesome!  Thanks for the response.  There's a local beekeeping club meeting coming up in a couple of weeks, and I think I'm going to attend and start learning what I need to know to start.

Originally Posted By Beefington: Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: Stuff about moving bees. Awesome!  Thanks for the response.  There's a local beekeeping club meeting coming up in a couple of weeks, and I think I'm going to attend and start learning what I need to know to start.

Most excellent.  Let us know how it goes!
Kitties

These bees didn't attack unprovoked. I was cutting some logs with a chainsaw right next to the entrance of their hive. OK,I just went to take a CLOSER look,and they kinda look like bees,but they move MUCH faster. The wings are longer,yep they're wasps! No wonder these guys attacked me like in the cartoons! Thanks guys!

Ray
P.S.
Should I just burn these guys out,or what? I can't do anything out there while they are around. My barbeque pit is right next to them for crying out loud! What kind of wasps are these anyway? they don't look anything like the paper wasps I have living under my roof.

Originally Posted By Beefington: Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: Stuff about moving bees. Awesome!  Thanks for the response.  There's a local beekeeping club meeting coming up in a couple of weeks, and I think I'm going to attend and start learning what I need to know to start.

We'll have to compare notes...my local group meets next week.  I am about 40 pages into "Beekeeping For Dummies"  I highly recommend it.  Not of answers to questions I did not know I needed to ask.

:)

Originally Posted By raygixxer89: These bees didn't attack unprovoked. I was cutting some logs with a chainsaw right next to the entrance of their hive. OK,I just went to take a CLOSER look,and they kinda look like bees,but they move MUCH faster. The wings are longer,yep they're wasps! No wonder these guys attacked me like in the cartoons! Thanks guys! Ray P.S. Should I just burn these guys out,or what? I can't do anything out there while they are around. My barbeque pit is right next to them for crying out loud! What kind of wasps are these anyway? they don't look anything like the paper wasps I have living under my roof.

Oh SUUUUUURE!

Nooooooow you say that after I put in my request for your guns after your certain demise.  Uh-huh.  

Well, if you burn them out, you're going to set your RR ties on fire, so I would not suggest that.    I would go to WalMart or Lowe's and get a can of FOAMING wasp and hornet spray.  You can nail the hole with the foam from a distance and just soak the entry and surrounding area with foam.  Be sure to spray plenty right in the hole.  The foam is valuable because it hangs on and the ones who are coming out will have to crawl through it.  It may take you a couple of "attacks" to get them all this way if it's a large nest.  

They are quite probably yellow jackets.  Notice that they look just like honeybees in the pics I posted, except their thorax is not fuzzy and their wings are longer.  There are other differences, but these are the most obvious.  Oh, and BTW, don't be fooled.  Bees can move VERY fast.  If you are thinking of bees being slow because you have observed Bumblebees, that is not typical of bees.  Honeybees and other bees can move just as fast, or faster, than most wasps.

There are gobs of different kinds of wasps--everything from the paper wasps you're familiar with, to dirt dobbers, to tiny little insect killing/eating(Brachynid I think--not sure of the spelling) wasps (they are the ones that lay the white eggs on tomato hornworms--eggs hatch and the wasp larvae feed on the hornworm)  Neither the dirt dobbers nor the tiny wasps sting humans as a rule, and they are not aggressive. They are considered beneficial insects.   All kinds of hornets are actually wasps, including the giant yellow "sand hornets" and the regular kind that build the oval shaped, typical "hornet's" nest in trees (this is also a "paper" nest and thus these hornets are paper wasps) and other high places.  Wasps come in all shapes and sizes.  Bees do too.  But honeybees are Apis species.  Other bees are not.

Kitties

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: As you obviously aren't going to do what I suggested several days ago (google image for "yellowjacket" and "honeybee") I did it for you: You have these (yellowjackets):  tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:rFgHRJ1SSn59MM:http://www.insectslimited.com tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:gq0Rxlohz_AHuM:http://www.worsleyschool.net You do not have these (honeybees): tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:nMu-ckDs-n6ZKM:http://www.otago.ac.nz/news/news/2006/26 tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:40ZdqfxCCrFJHM:http://statelibrary.dcr.state.nc Honeybees are about the same length, but they are "fatter" and leather-colored with black stripes, and hairy.   Yellowjackets are yellow with black stripes, more slender, and shiny with NO hair.  They are much stronger fliers, don't gather nectar or pollen, and forage at such places as rotting fruit and garbage cans (and picnics).   Honeybees are a bit clumsy in flight.   Oh, you'll also not want to confuse "yellowjackets" and bumble bees.  I found when I moved to central Illinois people here call bumble bees "yellowjackets"--for reasons I can't imagine.

Yeah, I did it for him too--a couple pages ago, though my pics were not as cool as yours.  Weird that midwesterners call yellow jackets bumblebees.  'Zere sumpin' in da watta up der?

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: <snip> Weird that midwesterners call yellow jackets bumblebees.  'Zere sumpin' in da watta up der? Not "midwesterners"--it seems to be specific to central Illinois.  I'm from Wisconsin, so I'm very much a midwesterner, and everyone I ever recall knows the difference between the two.  It's like confusing a glider with an airplane--kinda similar but VERY different.

More like a helicopter and an airplane--our bumblebees and yellow jackets look NOTHING alike.

Well, they both fly.  That's about it.

Regional idiosyncracies are interesting.

Oh, wait.

You're from WISCONSIN?  Well, that explains it.  Of COURSE people there know the difference.  Summer only lasts one day, so when the bugs come out, people pay attention cuz that's the only day it gets above freezing.

Kitties

Hey,thanks Kitties,and Beekeeper! I saw the pics in the first pages but didn't get a close look at what I had until today. What really made me wonder was that these yellow-jackets moved very quick from side to side,unlike the bee. I grew up with all sorts of flying stingers,whats that big red wasp with the black wings called? Oh,and over here we call the wasp/hornet that makes paper nests up high a yellowjacket. Funny,I neer noticed the true yellow-jacket before. I think what threw me off was that I always thought that wasps/hornets had the longer thorax unlike the honey-bee. Those YJ's look pretty cool from the pic,kinda like a bullet!

Again,thanks alot! Oh,and Kitties,if I fail my mission on pest removal,I will my middie to you!

Originally Posted By raygixxer89: Again,thanks alot! Oh,and Kitties,if I fail my mission on pest removal,I will my middie to you!

I'll be waitin' fer yer death announcement.  

height=8

Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: Originally Posted By Duranda1: If you use plastic foundation, which I should probably refer to as plastic "comb" or Permacomb (the main brand that I know of), the cells will be the size the cells ARE--you will likely have to buy brood comb and/or drone comb made of plastic.  And I think some people coat their plastic foundation (permacomb) with wax, which to me kinda seems like a redundancy cuz you aren't saving the labor of installing wax--one of the main reasons to use permacomb--but someone here in this thread uses permacomb--I'll have to go back and look--and would be the one to ask about those specifics.  I think they do this coating of the plastic comb with wax for various reasons.  One reason is to get the bees to accept the plastic comb better.  Some beekeepers do great with the plastic comb.  Other beekeepers have said they have trouble with the bees being willing to accept this plastic comb. We have also spoken of small cell foundation, both in plastic and wax:  I make special effort to order "small cell foundation" which is beeswax sheets imprinted with cells that are about 4.9mm across rather than the 5.2 that most beekeepers use.  THIS IS FOR A DIFFERENT REASON ENTIRELY.  THEN all the cells--both worker and drone--will be OVERALL SMALLER but they will still vary according to what the bees decide they need--drone cells will be larger than worker cells within this smaller parameter.  The point of this is to produce a smaller bee.  A smaller bee takes a couple days less to grow and mature from egg to mature bee, and thus interrupts the life cycle of the varroa mite, which develops within the larvae of the bee.   SMALL CELL FOUNDATION  is used for varroa control by SOME beekeepers.  I am one of them.  But even within this small cell foundation, the bees still build the cells slightly different sizes to maintain proper population controls/ratios of worker bees to drone bees, etc. The wax cells on Permacomb--the bees gotta work with that, period.  With wax, the little cell imprints are kinda like the Pirate Code--"really more like guidelines." Don't overcomplicate it now.  I shouldn't have said anything.  Now I've just got you confused.  Sorry.h.gif Kitties

A few clarifications on the above.  Permacomb is already fully drawn comb.  It looks like plastic honeycomb, not just a flat plastic sheet that the bees use as a guide to build on.  Permacomb is ready for the queen to lay in as soon as they are put in the hive.  There is no "drawing it out" like there is with wax.  I scrub a wax block on the surface of my permacomb in order to get better acceptance by the bees.  Some people coat it with hot wax via a method described over on the beesource website.  This is to make the cell size smaller to help with varroa control.  4.9 sized cells offer the best control.  Permacomb is 5.1 in size out of the box, and by wax coating it, the cell size drops to 4.9.  Another great advantage of permacomb, is all the cells are worker cells, and the bees can't reshape it to drone cells (which varroa love drone cells).  There are gobs of benefits to permacomb in my opinion, although its a little pricier than wood and wax.  It does save you a lot of assembly time though.  Bee space is violated a little when using permacomb because they are a little shorter than a standard medium sized frame.  Because of this the bees generally build drone cells or sometimes worker cells in-between the frames.  I like this because during hive inspections I scrape it away with the hive tool and it gives me a chance to look for varroa in the open cells.

Chris

Originally Posted By dcwilliams:  Because of this the bees generally build drone cells or sometimes worker cells in-between the frames.  I like this because during hive inspections I scrape it away with the hive tool and it gives me a chance to look for varroa in the open cells. Chris

To add one thing for the new people:  Some people put entire frames of drone-size cells in their hives to get the varroa to gravitate toward that frame of larvae/brood, and leave their worker larvae alone--all this is controlled by cell size and the choice the beekeper makes--so when dcwilliams is cleaning out those "in-between the frames" sections of comb (which is kinda messy of course) and thus tearing out the drone cells, he is, effectively, removing a higher ratio of varroa mites from his hives, since the varroa prefer the larger larvae, which is the drone larvae/larger cell.  Its just another chemical-free method of 1) monitoring the number of mites in the hive 2) removing mites from the hive before they do damage and can reproduce and 3)controlling mites without chemicals.

You can also buy "drone wax" which is the flat sheet of wax imprinted with slightly larger cells--to encourage the workers to "draw out" wax honeycomb the size of drone cells.  This is for those folks who don't want to use plastic comb, or who have had trouble with their bees accepting the plastic comb.

If you want to save labor, have money for the initial startup/purchase of permacomb and the bees will accept it, I think plastic comb is a really cool thing.  BUT if you want to make comb honey, like in my pic of my jars with comb in there that the customer can eat, you will have to use wax.  

dcwilliams:
Have you made comb honey, and if so, have you successfully mixed plastic and wax in the same hives?

Kitties

You can still make comb honey.  but I would certainly use only permacomb in the brood chambers.  When you put those supers of wax on top, the bees will happily draw them out.  You never want to mix wax and plastic in the same super, and my observations have been that when the brood chambers are all wood and wax, and you try to put plastic on top for honey the bees are more reluctant to draw it.  With any plastic comb, the bees are a little reluctant to work it, but once the queen lays in the frames or the bees start to work them, they are no different than wood and wax.  If you move already previously used permacomb into another hive, the bees take right to it.  The reluctance is only with brand new frames, but scrubbing both sides down with a block of wax, and spraying the surface with sugar water mixed with Honey-B-Healthy seems to really help with acceptance.  In my opinion the benifits far outweigh the little extra work at the beginning.

Chris

height=8

Originally Posted By Duranda1: Because of the palstic?  I thought there was wax foundation laid in on the plastic.

This is called plastic "foundation".  Sometimes this foundation is coated with wax by the company that produces it, but the actually sheet that is embossed with cell imprints is made of plastic.  The advantage is that there is no wiring frames, and the plastic cannot be totally destroyed by waxmoth.  When this is inserted into the hive the bees draw out the actual cells in wax - so its wax comb drawn on a plastic base.  Permacomb is entirely plastic, base and comb.  It looks like plastic honeycomb - and there is no need or time wasted with the bees "drawing" out the cells.  Bees use quite a bit of honey in order to produce wax and I think that permacomb gets the hive moving more quickly because the queen immediately has something to lay in from day 1.

Chris

Originally Posted By dcwilliams: You can still make comb honey.  but I would certainly use only permacomb in the brood chambers.  When you put those supers of wax on top, the bees will happily draw them out.  You never want to mix wax and plastic in the same super, and my observations have been that when the brood chambers are all wood and wax, and you try to put plastic on top for honey the bees are more reluctant to draw it.  With any plastic comb, the bees are a little reluctant to work it, but once the queen lays in the frames or the bees start to work them, they are no different than wood and wax.  If you move already previously used permacomb into another hive, the bees take right to it.  The reluctance is only with brand new frames, but scrubbing both sides down with a block of wax, and spraying the surface with sugar water mixed with Honey-B-Healthy seems to really help with acceptance.  In my opinion the benifits far outweigh the little extra work at the beginning. Chris

About Permacomb:

Chris this mostly makes perfect sense to me--especially about the bees being reluctant to draw the plastic honey supers when they have wax in the brood chamber.  I had not heard about rubbing the wax on the permacomb until you mentioned it in an earlier post, though I have heard of spraying with sugar water.

Why do you say you would not want to mix wax and plastic within a super?  I can guess at the answer--they'll be picky about what they use or not--but not sure if this is true?

For sake of the new people, as well as my own interest in the permacomb, what are the cost differences in setting up a ten-frame hive with the permacomb or with wood frames/wax?  I pay about $60 per 100 frames,  and about $70 per hundred sheets of wax for deeps plus the tiny amount for wire and grommets.  This ends up being about $13 per deep ten-frame body.  Of course, there is then, the LABOR of assembly.  Which some people enjoy, but as you get more hives, it can become a real chore.  Can you break down your costs for comparison?

Also, if you want to coat the permacomb with wax to get to 4.9, what is the process for that?  Easily done?  Any special equipment required?

thanks for the insights into the permacomb!

Kitties

height=8

Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: About Permacomb: Chris this mostly makes perfect sense to me--especially about the bees being reluctant to draw the plastic honey supers when they have wax in the brood chamber.  I had not heard about rubbing the wax on the permacomb until you mentioned it in an earlier post, though I have heard of spraying with sugar water. Why do you say you would not want to mix wax and plastic within a super?  I can guess at the answer--they'll be picky about what they use or not--but not sure if this is true? For sake of the new people, as well as my own interest in the permacomb, what are the cost differences in setting up a ten-frame hive with the permacomb or with wood frames/wax?  I pay about $60 per 100 frames,  and about $70 per hundred sheets of wax for deeps plus the tiny amount for wire and grommets.  This ends up being about $13 per deep ten-frame body.  Of course, there is then, the LABOR of assembly.  Which some people enjoy, but as you get more hives, it can become a real chore.  Can you break down your costs for comparison? Also, if you want to coat the permacomb with wax to get to 4.9, what is the process for that?  Easily done?  Any special equipment required? thanks for the insights into the permacomb! Kitties

Here is a link to the distributor for permacomb.  I have purchased hundreds of frames from John Seets: http://www.beesource.com/bee-l/bulletinboard/seets/permacomb.htm
There are also some great pictures on his page.  The hosting site: www.beesource.com is the best beekeeping site on the web, and has a GREAT forum with tons of VERY knowledgeable people on it, including commercial beekeepers. I scrub a block of wax on the face of the permacomb and spray it with sugar syrup and find that the bees accept it a little faster than with sugar syrup alone.  

When having bees draw out comb, you would not want to mix wood and wax with plastic in the same super, because the bees will overdraw the wax, and not touch the plastic.  Permacomb runs about 3.50 per frame, but there is no time spent putting it together, it lasts forever (Mr. Seets is still using frames he got back in the early 80's - if it gets dirty wash it with a power washer), and bees do not have to spend a lot of time drawing it out.  Bee literature estimates that bees utilize 5 to 15 pounds of honey to draw out 1 pound of wax.  If the bees do not have to draw out lots of comb for honey production, this equates into money in my pocket because I can instead sell that honey that would have been used for wax production at 5.00 a pound.  Another benefit is that you cannot deform permacomb - so you can extract as quickly as you want.  You will also never have a bunch of ruined comb because a drone laying queen uses up a brood supers worth of wax laying drones (bees don't reshape drone cells to worker cells later - once drone, always drone).

In regards to coating the frames, I myself did not perform this step, but a fellow named Michael Bush over on beesource has documented the process.  It is an outside process for sure, and involves heating the permacomb in the oven, then dipping it is melted wax and shaking it off good, thoroughly coating it.  Some studies have shown that benefits of small cell start to become apparent even at the 5.1mm size cells, and that is what permacomb is, so I just use it as it comes.  

Chris

Originally Posted By dcwilliams: Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: About Permacomb: Chris this mostly makes perfect sense to me--especially about the bees being reluctant to draw the plastic honey supers when they have wax in the brood chamber.  I had not heard about rubbing the wax on the permacomb until you mentioned it in an earlier post, though I have heard of spraying with sugar water. Why do you say you would not want to mix wax and plastic within a super?  I can guess at the answer--they'll be picky about what they use or not--but not sure if this is true? For sake of the new people, as well as my own interest in the permacomb, what are the cost differences in setting up a ten-frame hive with the permacomb or with wood frames/wax?  I pay about $60 per 100 frames,  and about $70 per hundred sheets of wax for deeps plus the tiny amount for wire and grommets.  This ends up being about $13 per deep ten-frame body.  Of course, there is then, the LABOR of assembly.  Which some people enjoy, but as you get more hives, it can become a real chore.  Can you break down your costs for comparison? Also, if you want to coat the permacomb with wax to get to 4.9, what is the process for that?  Easily done?  Any special equipment required? thanks for the insights into the permacomb! Kitties Here is a link to the distributor for permacomb.  I have purchased hundreds of frames from John Seets: http://www.beesource.com/bee-l/bulletinboard/seets/permacomb.htm There are also some great pictures on his page.  The hosting site: www.beesource.com is the best beekeeping site on the web, and has a GREAT forum with tons of VERY knowledgeable people on it, including commercial beekeepers. I scrub a block of wax on the face of the permacomb and spray it with sugar syrup and find that the bees accept it a little faster than with sugar syrup alone.   When having bees draw out comb, you would not want to mix wood and wax with plastic in the same super, because the bees will overdraw the wax, and not touch the plastic.  Permacomb runs about 3.50 per frame, but there is no time spent putting it together, it lasts forever (Mr. Seets is still using frames he got back in the early 80's - if it gets dirty wash it with a power washer), and bees do not have to spend a lot of time drawing it out.  Bee literature estimates that bees utilize 5 to 15 pounds of honey to draw out 1 pound of wax.  If the bees do not have to draw out lots of comb for honey production, this equates into money in my pocket because I can instead sell that honey that would have been used for wax production at 5.00 a pound.  Another benefit is that you cannot deform permacomb - so you can extract as quickly as you want.  You will also never have a bunch of ruined comb because a drone laying queen uses up a brood supers worth of wax laying drones (bees don't reshape drone cells to worker cells later - once drone, always drone). In regards to coating the frames, I myself did not perform this step, but a fellow named Michael Bush over on beesource has documented the process.  It is an outside process for sure, and involves heating the permacomb in the oven, then dipping it is melted wax and shaking it off good, thoroughly coating it.  Some studies have shown that benefits of small cell start to become apparent even at the 5.1mm size cells, and that is what permacomb is, so I just use it as it comes.   Chris

Thanks for this info Chris.  Michael Bush is the guy I referred to in an earlier thread, but couldn't remember his last name.  He knows a lot about bees and beekeeping.  He is, btw, the one who encouraged me to try the wax strips rather than full sheets of foundation, which works great for him, but did NOT work for me.  He was not into Permacomb when I was following his threads over there when I first started.  Interesting that he's using that now.  I spent a lot of time on BeeSource when I started beekeeping, but became frustrated with the argumentative attitude that some people seem to take.  The truth is, I think they just like to argue.  

And you are correct.  You do get SOME positive benefit at 5.1.  But for a full "regression" to small cell, then you'd need to go one more down  to get to 4.9.  Even with the small cell wax, it takes starting them the second time on fresh wax (usually the second or third year) to get them drawing the cells at 4.9.  The first year they use the small cell, they'll draw 5.1 cells even though the imprinted cells are in fact 4.9.  The second year, the bees will all be smaller, and the smaller bees will then draw the second round of small cell wax at 4.9.  This is one of the most difficult things to get folks to understand.  It's not an instant or automatic fix.  And it's a pita to get a bunch of hives fully regressed.

I'm likin this Permacomb idea more and more, though if the wax dipping to make it small cell is time consuming or requires more equipment, that will take away from its labor-saving qualities.  When I get time I'll go over there and see if I can find his thread on dipping the permacomb.

What an awesome thread this has turned out to be!  Cool!

Kitties

Since I purchased all of my permacomb another company started making fully drawn frames as well.  they are at www.honeysupercell.com, and from what I understand - their frames are at 4.9.  There is no regression time with fully drawn plastic - it is what it is, and the bees will either lay in it or not.  This is another reason I like the fully drawn stuff. I have also used starter strips as you mentioned, and they worked out ok, but not really for extracting, and the combs sagged a little in the summer when they first were drawing them out.  If you don't have much money to spend you can get 10 frames of wax with 1 sheet of foundation - not bad for those strapped for cash.

Chris

Originally Posted By dcwilliams: Since I purchased all of my permacomb another company started making fully drawn frames as well.  they are at www.honeysupercell.com, and from what I understand - their frames are at 4.9.  There is no regression time with fully drawn plastic - it is what it is, and the bees will either lay in it or not.  This is another reason I like the fully drawn stuff. I have also used starter strips as you mentioned, and they worked out ok, but not really for extracting, and the combs sagged a little in the summer when they first were drawing them out.  If you don't have much money to spend you can get 10 frames of wax with 1 sheet of foundation - not bad for those strapped for cash. Chris

Well, from what you've said, you could do a full regression with permacomb by giving them the regular 5.1 permacomb the first year, then the second year you could rotate in some "wax coated" permacomb at 4.9.  This would result in the full regression, without buying a second round of permacomb.  Or I suppose if you had limiteless funds, you could buy the newer 4.9 permacomb to rotate in.  Though I don't know any beekeepers who have "limitless" funds.  I'm not one anyhow.

I tried the wax strips when the bees needed wax NOW and I had no foundation, and not time/way to get any quickly enough.  So I cut up some full sheets.  I don't plan to ever do that again unless I have no choice, and don't know why some beekeeepers do really well with it, as I did NOT.  My bees just made a huge mess of it.  

Kitties

Well, I went to my first REAL open hive demo today.  It rocked.  I met with some of the local Bee Keepers as well as a group of wanna-bees like me, will be joining their organization, attend their next meeting in November, and then place my order for bees the first week in January.

2 3lb packages for right now and I plan on doing all Illinois hives.

The open hive demo was pretty neat because it showed us what happens after honey was taken for commercial use, then the drought hits hard forcing the bees to consume stores.  The GOOD hives had nothing but brood...no stored food at all.

We got to see what they thought was a dying colony only to find that in fact, it had died and the bees were simply checking it out...lots of traffic but the entire thing was ruined by those wax moths.

The third hive was a on the borderline of disaster.  It had an active queen that was laying eggs, but the entire colony had moved into the upper medium and part of the upper Deep.

It really is amazing how passive the bees are if everyone is careful, the keepers are experienced, and the bees are in a good move.

Here are some photos:





Find the Queen:


A frame from the wrecked hive:


Me getting a closer look...

An interesting thing...one of the keepers there said he switched to nothing but the foam hives, with wood frames and white latex outside.  He thinks it helps them regulate the hive temperature a whole lot easier, winterize easier and more smoothly, and not suffer from large temperature swings.  Its still in the experimental stage but it is his opinion that they are helping his bees attain just a little more healthy life and help them fight off other possible diseases or maintain good numbers.

Not that I know enough to really comment.  He simply suggested it and said regardless of what he used for his frames, if he he had to start over again the would all be mediums and no deeps.  From what I have read and discussed with others, as newcomers adopt that method, decades from now that sole use of mediums) will be more common than anything else.


Interesting stuff!

Originally Posted By Duranda1: An interesting thing...one of the keepers there said he switched to nothing but the foam hives, with wood frames and white latex outside.  He thinks it helps them regulate the hive temperature a whole lot easier, winterize easier and more smoothly, and not suffer from large temperature swings.  Its still in the experimental stage but it is his opinion that they are helping his bees attain just a little more healthy life and help them fight off other possible diseases or maintain good numbers. Not that I know enough to really comment.  He simply suggested it and said regardless of what he used for his frames, if he he had to start over again the would all be mediums and no deeps.  From what I have read and discussed with others, as newcomers adopt that method, decades from now that sole use of mediums) will be more common than anything else. Interesting stuff!

Wooot!  Good for you!  Another beekeeper sucked into...uh...JOINS our ranks.



I'm not a fan or foam hives or plastic, but that's just me.  ONE beekeeper.  And as you will soon find out, ask ten beekeepers, get eleven opinions.    If this group doesn't meet again until November, you'll need to read a bunch, and spend time with one of the beekeepers as he/she tends their bees through the fall (I assume they told you what they were gonna do with each of these hives to "help" those that can be helped to make it through the winter, right?)  There's so much to learn.  OUr meetings are monthly, and I attend two different ones.    Have an entire shelf of books on beekeeping that I've just donated most of to the local county agent for our beekeeping library.  Kept "The Hive and the Honeybee", and gave the rest away.  

Interesting that he echoed my wish that I'd started with Illinois boxes.  Duranda, did he give any reasons?

Oh, and great job getting a pic of the frame with the queen on it.  I haven't been able to do that thus far.  They can move fast when they want to!

Kitties  

Duranda, did they talk about feeding to get ready for winter for the hives with no stores?  

Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: Wooot!  Good for you!  Another beekeeper sucked into...uh...JOINS our ranks.

Just ordered 10 Illinois supers, and woodenware for two hives...bases, SBBs, top covers inner covers, top feeder etc.

Next order will be for frames.  I haven' figured out the nuances of the different types of wood ones.

If this group doesn't meet again until November, you'll need to read a bunch, and spend time with one of the beekeepers as he/she tends their bees through the fall (I assume they told you what they were gonna do with each of these hives to "help" those that can be helped to make it through the winter, right?)  There's so much to learn.

I am trying to find someone.  Sent several emails to the officer of the organization, hopefully I'll get some replies.  Maybe I can find someone in Northern Kentucky.

OUr meetings are monthly, and I attend two different ones.    Have an entire shelf of books on beekeeping that I've just donated most of to the local county agent for our beekeeping library.  Kept "The Hive and the Honeybee", and gave the rest away.

I wish these guys were a little bit better together.  Maybe I am just TOO excited and they do not want to bother with me.

Interesting that he echoed my wish that I'd started with Illinois boxes.  Duranda, did he give any reasons?

Mainly the ease in swapping gear, the costs, and the weight.

Oh, and great job getting a pic of the frame with the queen on it.  I haven't been able to do that thus far.  They can move fast when they want to!

Its easy when someone else holds it.  :)  That said, she moves fast.

Duranda, did they talk about feeding to get ready for winter for the hives with no stores?

Right now they are doing raw, unmixed sugar, and then waiting to see if the rains we got right after the meeting would bring some weeds and flower up and about for one last hurrah and a small run and then I think they were planning on doing a top feeder.

Originally Posted By Duranda1: Next order will be for frames.  I haven' figured out the nuances of the different types of wood ones. If this group doesn't meet again until November, you'll need to read a bunch, and spend time with one of the beekeepers as he/she tends their bees through the fall (I assume they told you what they were gonna do with each of these hives to "help" those that can be helped to make it through the winter, right?)  There's so much to learn. I am trying to find someone.  Sent several emails to the officer of the organization, hopefully I'll get some replies.  Maybe I can find someone in Northern Kentucky.

If you're right across the Ohio river, you're only about an hour from Kentucky University in Frankfort.  That's the main beekeeping research facility we have in the state.  The state apiarists are located there too.  Lexington/Versailles area has the Bluegrass Beekeepers' Association.  If that's within driving distance, let me know and I'll get your their schedule.  You could also attend our KY State meetings, which are held there in Frankfort too, once per quarter (theyalways have a good speaker or a learning lab set up).  KY is ahead of some places in getting our beekeepers organized for certain.  We have a number of folks from Southern Ohio and Northern Tennessee who come over for the classes and other learning opportunities.

There's another beekeeper's association in the Louisville area as well. If you're closer to that side of the KY/Ohio line, I'll find out their info.

For CERTAIN, if you can, plan on attending the Bluegrass Beekeeping School in Lexington/Versailles in February.  Tom........crap, can't remember his last name...H'es the guy in my pics--Ph.D. entomologist--specialist in varroa mites.  Anyhow, he teaches a one-day crash course for beginning beekeepers, and it's the best one I've ever seen.  This will be right before you get your colonies, so the timing will be ideal.

Kitties

Attempting to clean house this week and make space in the kitchen to do woodenware assembly and take pics.  I dunno if we'll make it or not.  May be another week.

Kitties

I'll probably do the February thing.  I've fired off one more email to the last SWOBA member listed and one to the Northern Kentucky group president.

I have 10 Illinois and 100 frames unassembled on order and some other stuff.  Now I am in regardless.

I'll take pictures as well.

Where'd you order your stuff Duranda?

When you get your frames in, we can talk more about wax if you want.

BTW:  I have a pamphlet on Varroa, one on hiving new packages, and a book called "Beekeeping in the midwest" that I will send you if you'll IM me your address.  Also I htink I have a couple of copies of bee culture and some other magazines still here that I'll put in if you're interested.

The book is not a great book, but might be more useful to you than it is to me.  I'm cleaning and getting rid of stuff.  Would rather give this stuff away to another beekeeper than throw it away.


Kitties

Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: Where'd you order your stuff Duranda? When you get your frames in, we can talk more about wax if you want. BTW:  I have a pamphlet on Varroa, one on hiving new packages, and a book called "Beekeeping in the midwest" that I will send you if you'll IM me your address.  Also I htink I have a couple of copies of bee culture and some other magazines still here that I'll put in if you're interested.

I ordered from Better Bee...I know they are in New York, but shipping was no different in cost than from others that were more local and the cost was just about the same.

I figure when I know more and think I can handle it I'll order a skid and pick it up from Dadant or Walter T. Kelly...maybe.  There is a group in Ohio too, but all opinions on all the stuff seems to range and be pretty much the same, so I just used the internet and best deal for the numbers.

Originally Posted By Duranda1: Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: Where'd you order your stuff Duranda? When you get your frames in, we can talk more about wax if you want. BTW:  I have a pamphlet on Varroa, one on hiving new packages, and a book called "Beekeeping in the midwest" that I will send you if you'll IM me your address.  Also I htink I have a couple of copies of bee culture and some other magazines still here that I'll put in if you're interested. I ordered from Better Bee...I know they are in New York, but shipping was no different in cost than from others that were more local and the cost was just about the same. I figure when I know more and think I can handle it I'll order a skid and pick it up from Dadant or Walter T. Kelly...maybe.  There is a group in Ohio too, but all opinions on all the stuff seems to range and be pretty much the same, so I just used the internet and best deal for the numbers.

Nothing wrong with Better Bee.  When you attend one of the bee schools, you'll get copies of the current catalogs from about every supplier in the country.  They send boxes to the bee schools for distribution.  

Kitties

Uxb found a link to this beekeeping story in general discussion.  I thought I'd put it here too, since people interested in beekeeping read this thread and might miss that one.


Hope the cross posting of the link is okay....there are some pics on the actual page.

3000 year old Beekeeping site

Sep 4, 11:04 PM EDT Archaeologists Discover Ancient Beehives By MATTI FRIEDMAN Associated Press Writer JERUSALEM (AP) -- Archaeologists digging in northern Israel have discovered evidence of a 3,000-year-old beekeeping industry, including remnants of ancient honeycombs, beeswax and what they believe are the oldest intact beehives ever found. The findings in the ruins of the city of Rehov this summer include 30 intact hives dating to around 900 B.C., archaeologist Amihai Mazar of Jerusalem's Hebrew University told The Associated Press. He said it offers unique evidence that an advanced honey industry existed in the Holy Land at the time of the Bible. Beekeeping was widely practiced in the ancient world, where honey used for medicinal and religious purposes as well as for food, and beeswax was used to make molds for metal and to create surfaces to write on. While bees and beekeeping are depicted in ancient artwork, nothing similar to the Rehov hives has ever been found before, Mazar said. The beehives, made of straw and unbaked clay, have a hole at one end to allow the bees in and out and a lid on the other end to allow beekeepers access to the honeycombs inside. They were found in orderly rows, three high, in a room that could have accommodated around 100 hives, Mazar said. The Bible repeatedly refers to Israel as a "land of milk and honey," but that's believed to refer to honey made from dates and figs - there is no mention of honeybee cultivation. But the new find shows that the Holy Land was home to a highly developed beekeeping industry nearly 3,000 years ago. "You can tell that this was an organized industry, part of an organized economy, in an ultra-organized city," Mazar said. At the time the beehives were in use, Mazar believes Rehov had around 2,000 residents, a mix of Israelites, Canaanites and others. Ezra Marcus, an expert on the ancient Mediterranean world at Haifa University, said Tuesday the finding was a unique glimpse into ancient beekeeping. Marcus was not involved in the Rehov excavation. "We have seen depictions of beekeeping in texts and ancient art from the Near East, but this is the first time we've been able to actually feel and see the industry," Marcus said. The finding is especially unique, Marcus said, because of its location in the middle of a thriving city - a strange place for thousands of bees. This might have been because the city's ruler wanted the industry under his control, Marcus said, or because the beekeeping industry was linked to residents' religious practices, as might be indicated by an altar decorated with fertility figurines that archaeologists found alongside the hives.

Well I just got half of my two hives today...

5 Mediums, 50 frames, BB, SBB, top feeder, telescoping top, inner top, hive tool, and a veil/jacket.  I found this one that looked super comfortable and easy to put on.

Anyways, now I in further...with money spent.  

I probably won't touch this stuff again till after we get our corn out and some stalks baled.  Then it'll back to the bees.

I have the perfect spot for the two hives and I just need to build/landscape a couple things to make it weed free with a little bit more late after noon shade.

More good news, they began reclaiming a 45 acre piece of property of our.  We had sold the gravel rights to a company that completed excavation about two years ago.  The Ohio DNR require them to grade it out, put 3 to 1 slopes in and plat lots of stuff to avoid erosion.  While the initial stuff is going to be rye so a fast crop comes up before winter, the rest is going to be clover, alf-alfa, and grass.  That is where I plan to build the next set...part of the 2nd year.  :)

OH, that'll be EXCELLENT.

Some thoughts on alfalfa and clovers:

If you plan to harvest the alfalfa, apparantly there's a spray that gets applied during bloom time (at least around here. I don't grow agronomic crops so I dunno what it is) but it will kill the bees.  Check into that before you plant if you plan to actually get hay from the alfalfa/clover.  That pest (and the resulting pesticide you'd need to use) may not affect you in your area.

If you plant clover, consider white dutch, as that's a favorite for the honeybees. Ladino has the same type of bloom head, and I guess would make a better hay crop. They will work red clover, but here,  the flower structures are so long and deep on a head of red clover that they often can't get to the nectar, and will choose another source if they have it available.  

You could plant dandelions.    Honeybees LOVE those.    And you could sell your honey as "DurandaFarms' Southern Ohio Dandelion Honey."    

Kitties
PS.  Good luck and be safe cutting corn.  They're done with corn here.  On to beans, which have produced almost nothing because of the drought.  The farmers are hurting for pasture so badly they're turning the cows into the harvested corn fields to graze on the corn remains.  I doubt there'll be any hay coming from our area this year.

Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: OH, that'll be EXCELLENT. Some thoughts on alfalfa and clovers: If you plan to harvest the alfalfa, apparantly there's a spray that gets applied during bloom time (at least around here. I don't grow agronomic crops so I dunno what it is) but it will kill the bees.  Check into that before you plant if you plan to actually get hay from the alfalfa/clover.  That pest (and the resulting pesticide you'd need to use) may not affect you in your area. If you plant clover, consider white dutch, as that's a favorite for the honeybees. Ladino has the same type of bloom head, and I guess would make a better hay crop. They will work red clover, but here,  the flower structures are so long and deep on a head of red clover that they often can't get to the nectar, and will choose another source if they have it available.   You could plant dandelions.    Honeybees LOVE those.    And you could sell your honey as "DurandaFarms' Southern Ohio Dandelion Honey."     Kitties PS.  Good luck and be safe cutting corn.  They're done with corn here.  On to beans, which have produced almost nothing because of the drought.  The farmers are hurting for pasture so badly they're turning the cows into the harvested corn fields to graze on the corn remains.  I doubt there'll be any hay coming from our area this year.

We don't spray.  Never had a problem with insects.  We get weevils in our first crop of alf-alfa and that's that.  2nd and 3rd cutting do not.  They vanish with the 1st cutting.  Not too sure why.  They just do.

We spray some herbicides here and there...around posts, and edges of barns.  Soy beans if we have vines popping up.  That's about it.

I'll try to post some pictures here soon of the both the initial location as well as the "prime" location.

I've been busy researching some stuff for the county regarding our infestation of Emerald Ash Borer.

Blah.

Got my nails and glue to put together my mediums...I may try to figure out how to build a couple medium nucs this winter to pass time and get something that is compatible with the system I have in place come spring.

Duranda, if you go to BeeSource.com, there are plans there for almost anything you want to build.

And they'll be standard sizes and all that.  Michael (can't remember his last name again) uses all mediums, so he'll have plans for medium nucs in the plans section almost certainly.

You know, you might consider getting a regular deep nuc or two--they're cheap and not much trouble--because you could use one in case you need to get packages from established beekeepers and they're using all deeps or something--if you buy a nucleus colony, you'll get three frames or so of brood and bees, and you could devise a way to set this up underneath a medium body or on top of one maybe, and you could go from there.  Maybe not.

But you're going to encounter situations where you may need to house a deep frame or two of bees and brood.  Having one deep nuc, or maybe just a deep body around might be useful.  Of course, you've already got one or two, right?

Kitties

Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: Duranda, if you go to BeeSource.com, there are plans there for almost anything you want to build. And they'll be standard sizes and all that.  Michael (can't remember his last name again) uses all mediums, so he'll have plans for medium nucs in the plans section almost certainly. You know, you might consider getting a regular deep nuc or two--they're cheap and not much trouble--because you could use one in case you need to get packages from established beekeepers and they're using all deeps or something--if you buy a nucleus colony, you'll get three frames or so of brood and bees, and you could devise a way to set this up underneath a medium body or on top of one maybe, and you could go from there.  Maybe not. But you're going to encounter situations where you may need to house a deep frame or two of bees and brood.  Having one deep nuc, or maybe just a deep body around might be useful.  Of course, you've already got one or two, right? Kitties

Are you talking about Michael Bush?  The Bush Farm/Bees guy?

True...I've been kicking around a whole lot of ideas lately but really all it is is me spinning wheels till the next SWOPA meeting in November.

Figures I pick a hobby that I have to wait till next spring to start.  Bah I tell you!  Bah!

I did put together my first Illinois last night.  Glued and nailed.  I was in the shop, I had just finished stapling the masonite backing to the wife's new cork board (a rather huge picture frame that she will glue corks to and use as a cork board) and I figured what the hell.  If I build them all, then I'll need to order more.  :)

I also have some ideas for ventilation that I want to work into a garden style hive top, but I am not too sure if this is a direction I need to be heading in right now.

On another positive note, the began to really tear up our gravel pit and begin reclamation.  This is where the new alf-alfa and clover fields are going to go, and maybe a stand of fruit trees and a small vineyard.



This is where I want to build my permanent apiary...eventually.

Yes, Michael Bush.  I don't know why I can't remember the man's last name.

Anyhow, I'm fairly certain you will find plans on BeeSource for a medium nuc if there is such a thing.  Michael Bush used to hang out there when I first started getting into bees.  I don't know if he's still there or not.  He's the one who talked to me about going with all mediums, but everyone around here was doing deep/medium combinations so I did too.  I was really worried about something going wrong and not knowing what to do to fix it.  

That was silly.  I shouldn't have worried so much, but I did.  

The thing is, if you wanted to buy a regular deep nuc box, all you'd have to do would be run it through a table saw and rip the boards to size before you assembled it.  (Be sure to rip the BOTTOM of the boards off, not the top, so you don't rip the edge off that has the lip to hold the frames.  You'll be using regular illinois frames in it.  Nucs use normal size frames. They're just built to hold fewer of them.  Also, you'd want to maybe have one more frame in an illinois nuc box than you'd have in a deep.  The point is giving the bees enough space to maintain themselves with just four or five frames.  They need a certain amount of wax/comb available to do that.  To keep the cycle of brood going.  I haven't ever done this--Illinois depth nucs, but somebody has, I'm certain.  

Michael has entire threads over there in the archives where he talks about going to all mediums (he used to use deeps) and the issues he had with it and how he handled that.  He cut all of his deeps down to mediums--even disassembled and cut his frames down.  (Ya gotta wanna pinch pennied BAD to do this.)

When you come to bee schools starting in January, be sure to pick the brains of the entymologists about overwintering in all mediums.  There'll probably be some little subtle things you might do differently, and they may have some suggestions.

Kitties

Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs:When you come to bee schools starting in January, be sure to pick the brains of the entymologists about overwintering in all mediums.  There'll probably be some little subtle things you might do differently, and they may have some suggestions. Kitties

Wow, completely missed your post...thanks Feral for bumping this.

I am reading all sorts of stuff about over wintering and how colony clusters like large frames.  Can they winter well in just a medium?  I have not read all of Bush's stuff so I am not sure his opinion on it.

I am really considering doing two sets of colonies.  2 in mediums only and 2 in the standard 2 deep set-up.

Bee thread on 60 mins right now !

ETA: Hackenberg Bees , he was talking about how bad CCD is nationwide ! They were showing cropdusters spraying chems and putting the blame on them ( guess what I do for a living..... )

never mind it was answered above