Much of the 9mm vs. 45ACP debate has shifted in favor of the 9mm with the advent of modern high performance bullet designs. In essence, what we read is that 9mm makes just as big a hole as a 45 with modern defensive hollow point ammunition.

But, what if modern ammo designs were not available (outlawed or TEOTWAWKI)? Would the balance shift back to 45 with it's bigger and heavier bullet?

On one hand 9mm shoots flatter, weights less, takes up less space, and requires less lead to cast.

On the other hand, the bigger bullets/holes have proven over and over to be a better man stopper.

If we hit a point where jacketed bullets were not available, then we likely will be in short supply of primers.  Does this tip the weight more to bigger calibers? If you only had 20 primers what would you rather load them into?

Just something that was crossing my mind this weekend.

If cast bullets were all I could use, and there was plenty of lead around, I would prefer to load and use .45 ACP.

200 grain semi wadcutters would be a good choice.  For my 625, I have the old 238 grain Keith mold.

Expanded .45 is still bigger. It's that 9mm is able to expand to big enough to be close, and you can carry more ammo.

Even if .45 doesn't expand it still makes a BIGGER hole then a 9mm that does.

Your thread is no different then countless others on the same subject.

In the FBI tests 147gr Gold Dot in 9mm expanded to .88 at it's largest, 230gr .45acp expanded to .98.  

So, being .10 difference IF they open all the way, you're just as well to have 15 rounds of 9mm over 8 rounds of .45.   There's always the thing of if they don't, and, how many rounds are you going to need to get a good hit.

If you were limited to the same amount of rounds, like in a state like NY, then .45acp is the only way to go for me. If you aren't limited, you have to weight your options and desires.

Basically I say carry what you shoot best, you're more likely to get hits, and only hits count.

I regularly carry a 9mm, and feel fully confident with it so long as it is loaded with premium carry ammo (147 HST).

However, I have very little confidence with the 9mm if I  forced to use any other non-premium ammo.  All bets are off with fmj or regular crappy HP bulk ammo.  If I need to hand cast bullets or use fmj, then 45 ACP wins.

Thus, I carry a Glock 43 and federal HST daily, but shtf carry guns are all .45's....

I regularly carry a 9mm, and feel fully confident with it so long as it is loaded with premium carry ammo (147 HST).

However, I have very little confidence with the 9mm if I  forced to use any other non-premium ammo.  All bets are off with fmj or regular crappy HP bulk ammo.  If I need to hand cast bullets or use fmj, then 45 ACP wins.

Thus, I carry a Glock 43 and federal HST daily, but shtf carry guns are all .45's....

IMHO if you want more punch than a 9mm and you're going to FMJ, 10mm is the direction you should be looking in, not .45ACP. Hits harder and hits further, shoots flatter, still has a bigger hole in FMJ than 9mm, and your capacity loss is negligible in a doublestack compared to a .45. That extra power also makes it a much more credible threat to hostile predators than both 9mm and .45ACP incase hostile humans aren't your only problem. And let's face it, unless you're in the inner city, hostile animals can absolutely be as much or more of a threat than hostile humans in various conditions.

Only real drawback is a lack of choice in firearms compared to the "big three" calibers; particularly if you want doublestack.

9mm cheap fmj kills thousands every year in the US. Don't overthink it. No matter what we are talking about .10 difference.

I have to agree.  I would add to just choose your favorite major caliber (9mm, 38/357, .40S&W, .45...), focus on hitting your targets from various ranges, shoot-move drills, practice your FTF/FTE drills, reloading, etc.  Hits are more important than caliber or bullet design.  Sure, I carry premium self-defensive ammo, but they are much less effective than ball/FMJ ammo if you can't hit your target.  You can hypothesize, debate and argue caliber and bullet designs to the grave, but there are far more important aspects to focus on such as training, tactics and decisions.

ROCK6

Agreed. Any hit is better than no hit. Pretty much any hit to vitals is better than a hit to non vital areas. With expected limited resources of primers, but probably not of lead, your level of training would be the same regardless of caliber.

I favor 9mm in our current world. Bullet performance between the two are almost statistically insignificant, 9 cost less to train with so I get to train more, and 9mm lets me carry more.

For some to compare 17rd G17 to an 8rd 1911 is disingenuous, G17 is 17+1 and the G21 is 13+1. A noticeable advantage but not twice as many rounds.

I planned on getting a glock 21 or 41 to add to the stable for this reason. I figure cast 45 would still be a good performed especially with a nice swc or tc bullet. (already cast for them) oddly enough my 9mm and 45 cast loads are the same both 5.2gr unique. one spits a 125gr 9mm at 1125 the other a 230 at 850.

I have also wanted to try one of Erik's hex hollowpoint bullet molds in 9mm. between that, careful alloy selection and powdercoating I think it would make for a great extended shtf load. but he requires 5 identical molds for the hex pin modification.

You're capacity argument is flawed. You are assuming a 1911.  G21 carries 14.

So go G17 at 18 rnds and a G21 at 14. That's apples to apples.

I have and carry both. Ct has 10 rnd mag limit. So my G30 with 10+1 is as capable as my G19. But if it serious, those regs go out the window.

I'm considering a barrel for cast bullets.
ETA
Beat on the capacity debate.

9mm is more plentiful with law enforcement and Feds.

You will likely find it during tough times of SHTF.

Learn to shoot. A 9mm to the head will not be much different than a 45 to the head.

Going bang bang bang without having to reload during a firefight is always a good thing.

I'm well aware of the capacity, but a .45acp with similar capacity of a 9mm has a much larger grip and is much heavier, and, extra mags are heavier as well. There is a penalty for high cap 45acp.

My daily carry for 6 years,

Even between .45 and 9mm using ball there is such a small difference in the real world to make the argument academic at best.

This initial premise is debatable.  The cause of a shift, if you believe one exists, can be argued:
1. 9mm is less expensive.  Cheaper to practice more often.
2. 9mm has less recoil.  You can shoot much more like a superstar without all that pesky recoil.  
3. The popularity of being "tactical" and the belief of some that what's necessary for the real tactical users is also necessary for everyday carry by regular people.
4. 9mm is manageable to a larger population of users- grown men to frail grandmas.

Modern bullet design didn't happen only to the 9mm caliber to the exclusion of all the others, thus it cannot be solely responsible for its popularity.  Nowadays it's popular to be tactical, and tactical is a lot easier to achieve with 9mm.

+1...  Get both...

Maybe its just me but I worry more about what my EDC CCW caliber is and use it because I like it, and it works for me, then which one will provide better cast ballistics for when I run out of ammo during SHTF or TEOTWAWKI and have to cast my own bullets because I ran out.

First of all if you plan on reloading store enough supplies.  If you enjoy casting your own bullets and shooting reloads then more power to you.  I reload, I enjoy it, but I would be living in fantasy land to think I could ever live through enough battles to actually use up even a few  of my emergency ammo cans worth of rounds on my own.

Pick whichever caliber suits your personal needs and performance, store the ammo you think you will need for yourself, then you won't have to resort to casting your own bullets because you had to use all your own ammo during a SHTF or WROL.

Attached File


-Anyways, to answer your 20 primer questions, If I was working with sub-par supplies I would be reloading for a revolver, not an auto, Which is why I keep a 9mm revolver in my stash.  I also do my best to run small primer 45acp when at the range with my 1911, because I all I keep on hand is small pistol primer, and large rifle primer.  My SHTF pistol calibers are 22, 9, & 45acp.

Though IMHO a few variety pack ammo cans packed full with some "do not touch emergency ammo only" and its something that no longer becomes an issue.  If for some reason you decide to cycle out the ammo, only do so when you have a replacement supply already on hand.

But yea, sub par mad max reloads go in a revolver.  

If you read up on handguns you will find most all handguns have crappy stopping power.  20 primers, give me a rifle.

I always find myself on the heavy end of the caliber.  My 1911s see 230 grain stuff.  My 40s&w sees 180 grain stuff.  My 44 mag is 240 grain for the most part I guess, I have all sorts of stuff including some dang heavy special lead bullets I got here and there in the ee and elsewhere for reloading but for the most part I settle into one setup and run it.

I stocked ball at first, it was easier to buy a case at a time.  Then I got a case of old hollow point ammo, I like to pick on winchester white box but dang have a shot a ton of it.  When I say old I am talking older technology and therefore cheaper ammo.

I was really happy when they had all those 9mm articles out,  I got a couple cases each of 40 and 45 ammo that is bonded jacketed hollow point ammo.  I almost feel guilty being so fancy and close to where others are at with this technology.

If you want to get into casting, get something that works well with it.  The 1911 was made for it in my opinion.  I am not knocking the revolver, I make oddball loads for my revolvers cause there is no feed ramp for the bullet nose to jam on and there is no worry on if the next round will cycle.  So if I have junk to use up, revolver works well.  And it is not like I am really talking junk junk, I am a sucker for a closeout on something to let me shoot more.

To some extent I see it the same as having a rifle in a straight wall cartridge, easier to reload and less picky on trimming and what not. 

Pick something that works, I recommend 9mm, 40s&w, 45acp, or something that competes with those really really well.  I skip 357sig cause I don't consider it as popular and I skip 45gap as a gimmick.  I was into 10mm but got out cause I was not happy with the platforms.

Buy ammo.  Go to real classes.  Buy more ammo.  If you enjoy reloading then have at it.  But pick something and train on it and carry it and practice with it.  Don't get hung up on 20 primers or what some article says. 

I started off with 9mm and to some extent if I did not enjoy the gun hobby I would be further ahead with shooting skills if I had spent my time on money on ammo and classes instead of various guns and changing this and changing that.

I hear this often but I strongly doubt that anyone will be handing out ammo during SHTF.    If the ammo is left unattended because the Feds, LEO, MIL are no longer alive or around to look after it then it be scavenged before most people knew that it was there.    Look at what is going on in Somalia.   The only ammo around to scavenge is in the sixty seconds after the gun battle ends.   And then I wonder how often it is the victor that scavengers it.

Since this is a survival forum, I would go with 9mm Para/NATO. More rounds, especially when you have to bug-out. The  45ACP round weights nearly double that of a 9mm. Hopefully you won't get into a firefight.

It doesn't matter.
You won't be alive long enough to start reloading if you've run out of ball ammo.


We also assume one shot stops and other fantasies. You shoot & shoot some more when engaging a bad guy...as long as you have bullets and an adequate caliber, it doesn't matter.

We all have opinions with fractional advantages built in...I'd roll w 9mm.
capacity, flatter trajectory, more variety of ammo, availability, carbine/rifle use w/same mags & other negligible stuff like quicker shot to shot recovery, less powder/lead when reloading, cheaper initially

If I find myself in need of something more "capable" than 9mm, I damn sure ain't stopping the bus at .45acp.

I've come to believe most of my ammo will be left behind if I bug out. So the 1000's of rounds don't matter.

Unless you're bugging in, or you're bugging out to a place where you have a lot of like minded , very, very close friends that you've confirmed bug out plans with, these ammo stashes are worthless. You can't carry them with you, even if you have a vehicle and a place to go, because you'll need the room for survival items and food and water. If you have food and water, ammo supplies and other supplies in your bug out location, then in the event that you need to bug out, it's more likely than not someone else has bugged out to your spot, and you've fed them, armed them, and given them other things, and they have the element of surprise on you when you get there.

You're not getting into a major firefight and living, and even if you did, you just brought attention to yourself. You're alive and you're fighting, so you must be fighting for something that is worth something to people in that kind of disaster, and others will come for it too.

Where I'm at, a mostly country setting, all of my neighbors are like minded, most current or former military, and we have gardens, animals, well water etc, and we all plan to bug in and protect each other. There's about 30 families , and we all have military type weapons of some sort, mostly AR15s, pistols, hunting rifles, etc, and we get together and shoot often.  We have plenty of land and the means to stay put and protect it. We already can survive on what we grow and raise without ever having to go to a store.

We might, might, survive, but that's the best chance you're going to get is being in that sort of situation.

If you're doing anything else, you won't. When you bug out, it will be like the great depression. Everybody figured they'd hunt deer and feed their families. Well, problem was, everybody did. There were almost no deer left after almost no time at all, and people were shooting each other in " hunting accidents " all the time, my great grandfather on my mother's side was shot in one of those "accidents" on his own land when he was after a deer for their table, and a trespasser saw he was about to get caught with a deer he'd killed. It was swept under the rug, as a lot of things like that were.

There aren't a lot of options in that sort of scenario that are in the least bit rosy, east of the Mississippi.

I have no real illusions about shooting it out with anyone. At best I can fight a delaying action if something like TEOTWAWKI happens. As such OP's argument is circular. I won't have time to re-load, etc. If the day comes I can afford a cabin in the woods or a bug out location, perhaps I will reconsider. Right now, being able to load my own ammo and shoot is a hobby, and a fun one. 9mm means I can carry more on me, thats basically it.

I agree, people do over think it.
9mm FMJ @ 1100+/- FPS have killed untold millions since the caliber came about. Ask any of the people not breathing because of it. Think WW2.
Hits count. Period.
I carry speer GD's because I can. If I had to, I'd carry FMJ's.
At one point in South Africa, I had to be content carrying 124gr FMJ's because there was no premium ammo available! I personally know 2 cops and one civvy that have killed someone (a few someones in the cops' cases) using FMJ's in 9mm and *GASP* .380!

Make no mistake, I love a 1911 and carried one for a long time, but with criminals running in herds now, I'd stick with capacity over a marginally bigger hole.

I have personally bartered for duty ammo - with a cop! Sure, it was in a different country, but everyone has a price if you have something they want/ need. I'm not predicating my preps on that, but it is something to keep in mind.