I have been reading Veracity's thread re: EDC carry lights and am starting a different thread so I won't end up derailing or obfuscating his questions.  If you posted it in there, you don't need to post it here because I've read it.

I recently lost my corded bike light to a hunting partner who threw it overboard with some duck decoys we were setting.  I was using one of those bright eyes amazon Chinese el cheapo units, and they are good for about a year of lighting 10 miles of river bottom bike trail between my home and where I work. When I use them in the field they tend to die significantly more quickly - often via abuse.

Since I am going to spend @$38 to replace a light that has 1 to 1.5 year's lifespan, I figure I may as well buy quality at 2-3 times the initial cost and expect it to last longer.

That brings me to my question. I want to know what light those of you who are very familiar with a wide variety of options would suggest. Here are my parameters.

I want it to be super bright so that I can cover ground quickly on the timbered, dark bike trail for two hours of daily riding.  The further I can see up the trail, the better. This is the primary use.

USB charging would be nice so I don't need a battery charger as I go through the daily ritual from morning bike ride to evening traps.

It needs to be able to attach to handlebars via a non-cheap-chinese-bike-light-rubberband method.  

When not on the bike it will be used to navigate night predator calling areas that are often unfamiliar. It will be used to set duck decoys in the morning and get an overview of the general area before throwing dekes. (It needs to cover some distance to figure out overall pocket size and will not be lent to hunting partners.) It will be used to run a trapline during the winter months, requiring periodic use during about three hours of trapline time in the middle of each night in predominantly middle of winter conditions. (I run traps all the way until ice out in the spring so it needs to work in inclement weather.)

Being able to hook a tail up to it to mount to a pressure switch on a firearm would be nice, but really isn't necessary. I may find myself in a place where it is legal to hunt predators with a light someday, but right now it is illegal in my state. Ability to accept a red lens would be an even bigger bonus - still, not necessary.

I run a water trapline, so it needs to be fairly water resistant and still work after the 100th time I've pulled it out of ice water. I'm clumsy.

I want it small enough to fit into a pocket.  It can stick out a little, but needs to fit into a carhartt jacket-sized pocket or front jeans/bibs pocket without fear of losing.

Mode spacing? I have no idea what is available.  I'd like to be able to tone it down enough to be able to use while searching for something in the car without blinding a driver who is trying to see the road.

I don't mind getting into li-ion rechargeables, although I already have a boat load of nimh AA eneloops and a maha 9000 charger and don't have a quality li-ion charger.

From what I understand of Veracity's thread, I should be looking at the Fenix UC35.  However, I just ran you through quite a bit of text to make sure you understand fully what my use will be and hope that you will point me to other options at which I should be looking.

My current hunting light that is only used sporadically is a surefire 6p.  I normally rely on an eneloop AAA powered petzl headlamp for the bulk of my outdoor - non bike ride to work activities.  See the beginning of this post for the bike light.

You're asking a lot, pressure switches, 2-3 hours on high, bike light, NiMH batteries, instead of 18650 li-ions, super bright, etc..

Look at the ZebraLight SC600 mkIII cool white and neutral white lights--the first two and see if these will work for you.

It ticks some of your boxes, but not others.

It's very bright, very efficient, has plenty of different modes, the body is 30mm in diameter, can run on an 18650 li-ion, or two CR123As, is more floody, than a thrower, but it does put out a nice wall of light.

http://www.zebralight.com/

Chris

Chris,
When I go to 18650 li-ions, which is the way I fully expected to go with this, which charger do you suggest?

I'm an Xtar fan and since you already have a Maha C-9000 Wizard One, like I do, you can get by with the Xtar VP2, which is an excellent li-ion charger that charges up all three chemistries: 4.2v li-cobalt/manganese, 3.6v LiFeP04 cells and the newer 4.35v li-cobalt cells.  (you can buy some Sanyo UR16650ZTA 4.35v cells for your 6P!) and it'll charge the smaller 10440 (AAA) and 16340 (CR123A) cells with it's 250mA, 500mA and 1A charging rates.  It also doubles as a 1A USB power bank for charging other USB devices.

It runs off of a 12v wall wart and a 12v cigarette adapter, that comes with it.  12v is also good for solar, much like your Maha is.

Unless you need to charge up a lot of cells, it's could easily be the last li-ion charger you would need to buy, it's that flexible.  Here's a pretty good price (I paid $51 almost two years ago for mine) from a reputable US seller in Florida--Orbtronic.  They have cells too.

http://www.orbtronic.com/xtar-vp2-battery-charger-li-ion-imr-18650-18500-18350-16340-26650-batteries

Another one is the Opus BT-3100/3400 v.2.2 mult-chemistry analyzing charger:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BT-C3400-Battery-Charger-Analyzer-Li-ion-NiMH-18650-AA-AAA-Car-Adapter-BT-C3100-/331523442603?hash=item4d305647ab:g:ewkAAOSwqu9VIej8

The 3100 and the 3400 are identical, just rdana on Ebay has one specially branded for him.  They've had a few problems with the fan making noise, but I think I will buy one down the road, just to have the li-ion analyzing features it provides--much like our Maha C-9000s with NiMH batteries.

Finally, if you want something that works off of a 2.1A (Apple shit) 5v USB wall wart, or USB solar panel, the new Xtar VC2+ Master is now out.  It's only two bay, but it'll do NiMH and li-ions and it comes with a little display.  Plus it can act as a 1A USB power bank:

http://www.mtnelectronics.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=79&product_id=591

You can buy their 2.1A wall wart for $6 extra, if you don't have a good one to begin with.

I've dealt with all three vendors multiple times, so they're GTG IMO.

Look for the Sanyo/Panasonic NCR18650GA cells, the LG MJ1/MH1 cells and some others that you'll come across.

As far as lights go, you're a bit all over the map and maybe narrowing things down a bit, would be more helpful.

The Fenix PD35 is a nice light in that form factor, similar to the NiteCore PD12 and others in the 5.5"x1" size.

The ZebraLights are sophisticated and well built, but they're a bit spendy.

Still, while I have an original SC600, that new Mk III is looking pretty bitchin', even the Mk II at $85 is a much nicer light than my version.

We can address more lights down the road, after you start prioritizing things a bit more.

Chris

OP,

Are you sure you want one light to do all you list?

I am the light H8TER on this forum...really just ask Batman...

And yet

Even I have more than one light

That's a good point.

Seems like a few cheaper ones, like the Convoy M1, M2 and C8, for <$20 per light, might be better.

Still, that ZL SC600 Mk III will be plenty bright, a good size for handlebars, efficient, has many brightness levels, is IPX-8 waterproofed (2m for 30 min.) and while a tad fat in the bezel for some, it should fit in one's pocket unless they fancy skinny jeans as a rule.

Chris

Chris... if I may ask your opinion... I've become a fan of the SolarForce L2 bodies and XM L2 U2 modules ( a couple with multi modes, a couple powered by Samsung 18650s, but cr123s in the weapon lights)... Nitecore D2 charger... the rest of my hurricane electronics is Eneloop AAs...it don't really abuse them, and would like your opinion... I'll probably get a lower voltage module for the 18650s at some point... ... the M3 head puts out an alleyway full of light, but have not used any of the lights to really get them hot... would you recommend something like this for the OP?

Are we talking about the SureFire M3 head that went on the older SF M3 combat lights?

Those used incandescent bulbs, IIRC, right?

I put a Redilast (battery rebrander) P60 3 mode XM-L2 U2 drop-in in my SF 6P LED and it only draws 1.5A at 500LM and rarely gets hot until the 30 minute mark.  Since it's 'lower' drain, it doesn't draw too much current from my 2000mAh Redilast 17670 protected cells, which use the Sanyo 16650 4.30v cell as a base.

There are great drop-ins out there to use, but I'm not all that familiar with all of the SF heads/bezels that one can buy, if that's what we're talking about?

Chris

Thanks for giving me an idea of how much I was asking.

As I prioritize, the number one thing I need it for is putting a lot of light out a long way in front of me.  The bike trail would be primary, and it would be the same function I would need for getting an overview of a marsh pothole.  Every other function I desire outside of putting out a lot of light a long way can be handled by the petzl headset that I normally have handy.  A tool similar to this should keep the handheld light interchangeable for both functions:  http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00J2G30SC/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=1IFAA5T1CM9NZ&coliid=I1AJYA238LU4LG

My ride into work is an hour to an hour and twenty, depending on which way I am going (hills) and how hard I push myself.  There is nothing to keep me from charging a battery while at work or switching them out for the ride home. That gets me my 2-3 hours total time without much issue.

I guess the big thing I would like for the bike function is something that steps down before dying.  I hate how my past bike lights have gone from bright to me riding in the dark instantly.  Being able to limp home with a diminished beam is an acceptable solution.

My assumption is that just about anything I spend that much on will be able to make it through a rainy ride home or a quick drop in the water.  Correct me if I am wrong.

AAs were and afterthought in my original post because of how well I am set on them.  Going to 18650s should not be an issue.  I like the idea of an analyzing charger, but would probably start with the first one you mentioned since you speak of it being about as versatile as one can get.  I’ll actually look at that harder after I figure out the light.

Chris, I watched a video on the cool white vs neutral white for those zebra lights you mention.  It looks like the neutral white is more what I am looking for, but I am curious how much distance I lose on the illumination vs the cool white. I missed any comparison in the literature, and while distance differences were alluded to in the video, nothing quantifiable was mentioned. Any ideas?

It looks like the ZL SC600 Mk III is actually 1.5 inches shorter than the surefire 6p, which is a size that currently works well for me.  I also like the 1300 lumens vs the 700 on the Convoys you mention.

Did I narrow focus enough?

Chris... sorry, I was talking about the Solarforce M3 head....shown with a extended tube for (3) cr123s

This is what you speak of?
m3 head

Hi.

OK, it says right on the head that it's can take up to 9v, so that's 3xCR123As.

I don't know what your question actually is, but you do have some options with that light.

If you want to use lithium-ion cells, you're looking at 2x18500 cells, if they will fit diameter wise.  Remember a CR123A is 16mm wide, by 34mm long.  This is where we get the 16340 li-ion designation from.  First two digits are cell diameter, second two are cell length and the last digit--0 is for a round, cylindrical cell.

Consequently, an 18650 cell is 18mm wide and 65mm long.  An 18500 would be 18mm wide by 50mm long.

3xCR123As are about 102mm long, so we're close to two 18500s in length.

The problem we have with running two, or three, li-ion cells in series is is that they must be matched perfectly, otherwise the weaker cell(s) in the chain will deplete faster and then the stronger cell(s) will actually start to reverse charge the weaker cell(s) and well boys and girls, this is how we make home made grenades.

The solution to this is to add a little circuit breaker at the negative side of the cell, which has a low voltage, an over-current and an over-voltage safety built in, which essentially turn off the battery until reset (by charging.)

The problem with these PCBs (printed circuit boards) is that they have a thickness, usually 3-5mm, so that 18500 cell now becomes an18550 cell, which might cause fitment issues in particular lights.

So, as we can see, grabbing a bunch of stuff and just cramming it into your light isn't really a viable direction unless you know things a) fit and b) are safe for you to use.

Anyhow, with 2 li-ion cells, you're at 8.4v hot off the charger, with a nominal 7.2v-7.4v, so your M3 head, with that module in it, should be fine.  Maybe slightly underpowered due to the lower than 9v of 3xCR123As, but it'll work for sure and if it's regulated, you probably may notice a slight decrease, if at all.

I know this post is scattered, but follow-ups are welcome.

Chris

Chris... thanks for the reply... I guess I was really asking if you were familiar with the Solarforce lights in terms of longevity....I'll stick with the 123s until I make another order for an XP-G module to work with the lower voltage of the 18650 for the smaller L2M light

Not the M3 head, but I've almost purchased the L2P in blue, many times.

I already modded my SF 6P and while the SolarForce hosts are generally very well regarded on the budget scene, I found the budget brand Convoy at FastTech dot com and bought a few of them.  They're not really modular like SolarForce, but you have multiple tint bin options and four options on your driver board 1A, 1.4A, 2.1A and 2.8A, so they're quite configurable in that regard.

For under $22 for my M1, M2 and S2, they're really tough to beat and they're very well made, as you can see from JohnnyMac's short, but comprehensive review here:

http://budgetlightforum.com/node/19202

Anyhow, there are tons of lights out there and many for not a lot of cash and SolarForce, Roche and Convoy are three of them.

Just MAKE SURE that your 3xCR123As are all of the same date code and in the same condition when using three of them in series.  Install them in 3s and replace them in 3s.

Good luck.

Chris

ETA: tough to beat.

What brand of 18650s should I be buying?  I don't know much about rechargeable batteries once I step outside of NiMH.

Thanks for all of your help.

Depending on the light, the newer hybrid cells are giving top capacity (3200mAh-3500mAh) and decent load handling (10A continuous) capabilities, so it's a great time to buy 18650s.

Some lights have low voltage protection built in, some lights need a button top, some lights need shorter cells, some lights, you'll want a protection circuit, which adds length.

Sanyo Panasonic NCR18650GA 3500mAh/10A
(either naked, or with PCB protection circuit--might not fit some lights like the ZL SC600 Mk III.)

LG MJ1  3500mAh/10A

Samsung 30Q 3000mAh/15A

Panasonic NCR18650B 3400mAh/5A (The King is dead, long live the King)

Sony VTC 5 2600mAh/30A (King of the Vapes)

Lots of choices, but the light and its load will determine what cells you'll be buying.

Chris

oops- double posted as browser kept locking and I kept trying to edit/not lose what I had written.

OK,

I think I have figured this out.  At Fasttech the wide array of options on the same flashlight left me somewhat confused, but hopefully I've figured it out.  I am posting here regarding the orders I am going to place tomorrow in the hope that anything I've miscalculated on with the batteries or color of the light will get commented on by someone who actually knows what the stuff means beyond what they have read online or heard from someone else.

I decided to get some more exposure to some of the flashlights that were mentioned in this thread before spending $100 on the Zebra Light.

From Fasttech I am ordering the Convoy M1 Cree XM-L U2-1B 2-Group 3/5-Mode 900LM LED Flashlight and a set of Authentic Sanyo NCR18650GA 3.6V "3500mAh" Rechargeables. My hope is that the batteries will fit after reading on Mountain electronics that the fit could be tight on the C8 that I am buying through them. My other question regarding this light is if I will care one way or another about its 6500-7000 kelvin color temperature.

I will also buy the dedomed Convoy C8 Flashlight - XM-L2 U2 1A - Newest Version once Mountain Electronics gets them back in stock.  It was interesting to learn about what dedoming is, and at first I was under the impression that usable life of the flashlight may be affected.  My guess is that I will get the throw I want, and that my original fears of susceptibility to outdoor conditions or the light dying an early death due to dedoming were unfounded.

I've already purchased the Xtar VP2 from Orbtronics since the Li-ion batteries are a forgone conclusion. I have the Fenix ALB-10 mount on the way since it will fit everything I am looking at.

If I don't hear anything negative about battery fit or it being an obnoxious kelvin color temperature I will place the other orders tomorrow night.

Thanks for your help gents.  Your technical suggestions gave me areas of focus on which to learn more about the subject matter; the two most prominent being light color and battery parameters. The "more than one light" comments really helped be broaden my search to determine exactly how to fit the objectives I wish to fulfill without simply looking for one end-all-be-all bigger-better-faster-more answer.  Once I have had a look at the initial lights, I'll return to the subject and see if the $100 Zebra Light is a value purchase for my needs.

I appreciate the lack of kool-aid in this thread.

I'm also trying to learn with this thread... it seems the XP-G module better fits the voltage range of an 18650, though the lumens are less...I currently have XM-L2s in my P60 size lights....the XP-G module from SolarForce has a low voltage shutdown to keep the li-ion cell from over discharge... you might ask Chris for some help... I would appreciate his response as I just ordered one.. thanks

http://www.solarforceflashlight-sales.com/search.php?sname=xp-g+

Hi.

Just a FYI, Cree updates current LED emitters and hence, we'll see an XM-L get upgraded to and XM-L2 and we'll see the XP-G become an XP-G2.  The differences between the XP-G class and the XM-L (or XP-G2 and XM-L2) is basic 'die size.'  Without checking data sheets, the XP-G LEDs might be 4mm square and the XM-L LEDs might be 5.5mm square.

For smaller lights with smaller reflectors, say like the Fenix PD and Nitecore P12, the small die size of the Cree XP-Gx might actually throw farther, so there's that to consider.  The XM-Lx will output more lumens, but since it's a bigger die size, you don't get that focus as much.

After the XP-Gx and XM-Lx numbers, we'll usually see another pair of characters, like U2, U3 and R5.  These are the output bin designators.  The LEDs get rated and so a U3 with in a specific model LED will be rated for slightly more output (lumens) than the U2, or T6, for the XM-Lx LEDs.

Finally, after the R5, U2 and U3 output binning numbers, we'll see (but not always) a tint bin pair of characters like 5C, 4B, or 7A.  These describe the tints for any given model.  Usually 1A and 1B are cool white emitters, kind of in that 6000K-6500K color temperature and tint bins like 4C, 5B might be in that warm, or neutral temp. range.

Noon sun is described as 5500K (neutral) and warms are in that 4000K-4500K and even below.[list]

One can figure out what they want and seek out the output and tint bins accordingly.

More to come.

Chris

2 more questions as I start looking at upgrading my surefire 6p.

As I look at the Sanyo UR16650ZTA 2500mAh Button Top - 4.35v on Mountain Electronics I am confused about why the picture of the battery says it is 3.7v.  Likewise, when I look at fasttech, orbtronic, and other places it looks like the top end is 3.7v.  Here's the Mountain Electronics link: http://www.mtnelectronics.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=383  Are 4.35v hen's teeth, or are they all really 3.7 volts/the same battery?

Second question: Do you have a suggestion for a drop in upgrade to LED for my incandescent surefire 6p? I want to use it like it currently works - one brightness, either twisted on or pushed on momentarily. I want it to light a room/hallway/garage/backyard while I look for bumps in the night.  I normally keep my 6p next to my bed for midnight disturbances.  It seems like Malkoff m61 has a lot of votes.  It also seems there are brighter options than the 325 lumens and cheaper options than the $55. I guess my preference is for something neutral white.

Most li-ion Li-Co and Li-Mn (cobalt/manganese) cells use an older designation which is going the way of the pager and typewriter.  Newer cells use a combination of aluminum, nickel and cobalt, along with some maganese only cells.

Back in the day, a few years ago, we had 4.10v cells, or 3.6v nominal.  That got bumped up to today's 4.2v hot off the charger, or 3.7v nominal.  Really, they're all 4.2v cells, but some manufacturers label their cells 3.6 and/or 3.7v, as a matter of course, so don't get hung up.

However, recently, chemistries have bumped the voltages up on some Samsungs, some Sanyos and some LGs.  We now can get 4.30v (hot off the charger) and 4.35v hot off the charger.  These cells need a charger that can handle those higher voltages, like the Xtar VP2 and the Xtar SP2, among others.

4.30v and 4.35 volt cells can still be charged up on regular li-ion chargers, they just will stop at 4.20v and therefore, you won't realize the fullest capacity that that cell can absorb...so call the difference maybe 100mAh-200mAh.  Not a lot, but still enough to make me buy the VP2 charger for my LG D1s and E1s, which are 4.35v cells.

The Sanyo 2500mAh UR16650ZTA cells are 4.35v cells and the older 2000mAh UR16650ZT cells are 2000mAh (4.30v.)

I use the earlier UR16650ZT cells that Redilast modified and added a PCB protection circuit to, so they then become 17670s dimensionally.  They fit my unbored 6P tube just fine.  There is a problem, however, with the protected 16650s, in that the PCB is rated to cut charging at 4.20v and not 4.35v, so you're stuck with the diminished capacity, even though they work well in a 6P.

I added Redilast's 3 mode XM-L2 U2 P60 drop-in to my 6P and it works fine.  Only pulls 1.5A on 570LM, so much better than the 80LM OEM LED module that it came with.

There are plenty of others to check out, including those from LumensFactory dot com.  Look for their D26 series of bulbs and LEDs.  They make single mode drop-ins, so look around.

Chris

I really like Surefire G2x pro.   You have two power levels, one at 15 lumens, basically for 50 hours and another one at 320 lumens. I find that very practical.  

it runs on 2x123 or you can run a rechargeable Li-Ion 16650 from Sanyo, the 2500 mAh model that charges up to 4.3V.

My first choice is a bored 6P body with a Malkoff M61LL.  You get about 80 lumens for 10 hours.   A nice combination of runtime and lumens.  Or Malkoff M61L, which runs for 5 hours and you get 170 lumens.   You can run a 18650 cell and 2x123.  You have to buy a bored body or do it yourself.  

I find that Malkoff has a massive heat sink designed to handle 300+ lumens without dropping output like everything else. A cheap Chinese light that advertises 700 lumens does so but only for the first 2 minutes, then it drops in output significantly.

If you want the best, the most reliable, bulletproof single mode light, get a Surefire or a clone with a Malkoff devices drop-in module.  You can buy a pre-bored 18650 body from FiveMega.

I ended up going with the Malkoff m61 and 16650 batteries for the surefire 6p I already have. My timing seemed to be good, as they are on sale for $ 40.

I have been using it for the last couple of mornings as I ran the boat upriver predawn to set up for ducks and have been pleased with the improvement 325 otf lumens over the original incandescent bulb. The mornings have been exceptionally dark, and it is amazing how quickly I have gotten used to the extra light. I am pretty excited about the 900 lumen convoy m1 I have on the way and the c8 that will be ordered when they are back in stock.

The 16650 batteries showed up yesterday and will be rotated into service once the current pair of cr123 batteries dies.

You can't argue with Malkoff and Gene and his wife make great products, even though I don't personally own any.  There are many lights and for the money, the Convoy lights are well made lights for peanuts.

Google Convoy M1 review over on Budget Light Forums and look for the review by JohnnyMac.  He dissects one for us.

Chris

I found JohnnyMac's review after you mentioned the M1 here, and it is what convinced me it was part of what I was looking for.  It has been really eye opening to see what is available for not much money.  I really appreciate the help I've gotten in this thread.

Malkoff M61 is a fantastic choice, I have one, with a nice tint.  I really like the beam profile. It's a combination of throw and flood.  Not as throwy as maglites but very practical indoors and for most things outside, unless you need a 100m thrower.

Keep the 123s in your car, they resist weather real nice, not afraid of cold when everything else freezes.

Li-Ions are great for every day use, I got the Xtar charger that shows you the voltage, neat.

Been using the Malkoff M61 upgrade and the Convoy M1 daily for a little over two weeks now.  I am extremely happy with both choices.  The M1 is really more than I needed for a bike light. Both flashlights perform beyond what I imagined they could.

The Convoy C8 came back into stock at MTN Electronics and shipped today.  As I consider the range I am already getting with the M1, I really have no idea how much more to expect with the dedomed C8.

Thanks again guys. I am really glad I stepped away from NIMH AA batteries and picked up a decent LIon charger while upgrading my flashlights.

Keep us posted.

While the Convoy lights aren't the 'end all, be all' lights in the 'flashlight world,' they are a good value for the money spent.

Gene Malkoff's P60 drop-ins are well engineered items, so you should be happy with what you bought.

Chris

just a follow up and thanks for the information to all and principally Chris... for my first venture into the 18650 world...I received the single mode XP-G with the lower voltage range (.8 to 4.2v with low voltage cut off circuit), wrapped it with aluminum foil, and replaced the XM-L2 U2... switched out the 123s in the Solar Force L2M body, and added a Samsung 18650... the module came with the smooth reflector installed and an optional orange peel spare... as Chris commented, the smaller die size seems to throw better than the larger XM-L2, with a good hot center due to the smooth reflector... I couldn't be happier... thanks all

This is the second time on this site I have seen fleshlight and gotten all excited just to find out it is a flashlight.