So I was evaluating some things the other day and packed a SHTF (which is not a zombie apocalypse bs) bag. It's more for a ROWL or natural disaster type of scenario bag and realized a few things concerning the weapons which concerned me. So now I want a suppressed SBR. The question is do I stick to an AR or something else? Special interest arms makes a improved version of the De Lise .45acp bolt action carbine that's only 85db!!! (DAMN that's quiet!) But, it's bolt action, and lacks power for any mid sized game animal. Plus I think there not very light weight and well there a carbine size weapon, so still sort of long for what I'm looking for though the suppressor is integral so maybe the length isn't so bad?

Enter the Thureon SC basically a modern ar styled semi automatic De Lise, that use's Glock magazines, still in .45ACP, still very quiet, still not so great on mid sized game...unless you like tracking and slow kills, and I don't. Would be fine for bipeds up close though. So then theres the more obvious AR solution. First thought was BCM 14.5" mid gas upper in 5.56, but 5.56 is loud, put a can on it and now it's no where near short either. Ok so 10.5" and a can, well it's still sort, and now with a short gas system and a can, so I would think the action is going to be very violent as it's going to be very over gassed, maybe an adjustable gas block would solve this? But now it's even louder, weaker and less lethal on mid sized game (I'm thinking). So now enter the .458SOCOM I was reading about it last night and how it could go from subsonic to supersonic from 170grain (I think) to 600grain (INSANE!)  and that some of Lehigh defense's 300gr loadings were well over 2,000 ft/lb of muzzle energy. And was effective to approx. 200yards. It sounds perfect, I'm not sure how quiet a short barreled version would be with subsonic loadings suppressed. or how loud a full power round would be suppressed.  BUT it allows me to use a standard AR lower, which I like, it's semi auto, which I like, use's standard magazines, which I really like. It seems to do it all, so long as you don't want to engage an enemy threat at beyond 200yards. Which I don't.

So I guess is there any reason to NOT go with a .458 SOCOM Suppressed SBR or home defense & or survival scenario? I have read that the brass is hard to come across, and it would mean I would need a new set of dies for my press, which isn't a big deal. Does anyone know what the brass life is like on .458 SOCOM? It doesn't have much of a shoulder so maybe it lasts well, if I can get a good many reloading's out of the brass It seems like the best option?

300BO>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>458



If you want Can+SBR with the focus on HD the 300 BO will be a better fit than the 458.

I am no expert with either caliber, so please explain why you think .300 BO is the better choice. From what I am reading and seeing, it looks like the .458 has more energy and delivers with greater effects in either subsonic or super sonic loadings. though I guess at reduced capacity. Not sure how many fit into a standard 30rnd G.I. magazine...for either caliber.

Well, the only thing different about the 300 and 5.56 is the barrel. Bolt/mags, etc all the same. I like that for systems to be as modular as possible.


 

ETA: And you can make 300 brass from 5.56.

suppressed rounds=really no difference in ballistics, lead will only deform so much and the 300BO has better bullets for killing people.

<insert OMG .458 pi r squared -.308 pie r squared= so much moar!!! >
supersonic: the 300 has better rounds to kill people, for (big) animals the 458 will win. but bigger bullets also have more recoil.

do not get caught up in the "energy" bullshit arguments.

300BO holds the same as a 556, 458 is less

30BO will also do better (practically) at range. You can shoot 458, 300 yards but you need a ton of elevation with heavier bullets


IF youre talking a HD situation, the 30BO is better. If you want big bullets, 458 is it


you might want to shoot a 458 before you buy one

I would vote BO over .458 also: Many parts cross over from standard ARs and brass is easy to manufacture from 5.56mm.

I put together an 8.5" 300 BLK SBR with suppressor for this very thing (well, and for fun).

With subsonic rounds it is insanely quiet, and I am about to jump on the Omega can which will drop length, weight, and a few db off my current setup (Specwar 7.62). I can pull the pins and fit the whole setup in a small carry on size suitcase or mid size backpack easily. The round will easily take down any game in my area at a pretty good range, more than I should need.

If I am ever in a situation where I really need a semi-auto rifle, the last thing I'd want are handgun rounds (going back to the .45acp comment). Just MHO.

I agree on the hand gun cartridges. It was simply the extremely low report from the De Lise  (likely the quietest suppressed firearm period) that caught my attention, if you had to try to stay hidden and defend yourself, it would be an excellent option IF it weren't a bolt action. So then I saw the semi-automatics but there still not meeting any of the criteria I set for this weapon other than being really really quiet. Mostly because hunting mid sized game with it wouldn't be very realistic. The weapon doesn't NEED to be a 300yard weapon, it's to be a short, light, quiet weapon that I could use to defend myself and family BUT also hunt with if need be.

The thing that set me off on initially looking into the .458 at all was some youtube videos of the Lehigh Controlled Fracturing loading. It had a fairly "HOLY CRAP" amount of damage both early and deep, I'm pretty sure a center mass shot with that loading in that caliber = 1 shot stopper. That said, that ammunition is VERY expensive, though epic in it's own right. No idea how subsonic loads would perform other than deep penetration I'm sure.

Side bar question: Has anyone loaded cast bullets for either .300 BO or .458 SOCOM in subsonic obviously? I would think if you went with pure lead and kept the velocity right at 1000fps or so it would still deform some and be pretty mean. No idea though, just speculation. If I can cast load bullets for .300BO for handloading and just buy some $$$ supersonic Lehigh Defense loads for self defense. Then I suppose .300BO does make more sense. And as I understand it both use standard G.I. Mags? Or does the B.O. Require modifying the magazine?

The only change from 5.56 to 300 BO is the barrel. Everything else is the same. I know that some folks market mags that have been "optimized" for 300 BO but I don't know exactly what changes they have made.

Why have a two stamp gun when a one stamp gun does the same thing? Enter the 300 Blackout, suppressed, pistol with blade stabilizing brace. It was expensive, but it's basically my solution to the same question you're asking.  The weapon in the photo took about 4 years to build due to the market ups and downs, finances and sourcing parts for the right price, but it was worth it.  The Noveske barrel's gas port is drilled in such a way that it runs reliably suppressed with subsonic loads and unsuppressed with super sonic loads.  I was skeptical before I bought the can, but it really does run just fine in whichever capacity you ask of it. It's QUIET, it can be broken down and stowed in a backpack or case fairly quickly. The 1x4 Accupower is perfect for realistic distances. It uses the same magazines, bolts, etc. as a normal ar15, just has a 7.62 bore in the barrel.

.458 is great for pig hunting or bear defense or just plain fun.  It's harder to suppress, there are fewer options for .458 suppressors, .458 suppressors are bigger and heavier.  .458 ammunition is even harder to find than .300.  It's more expensive to reload, the bullets cost more, the brass costs more and is harder to come by, it uses more powder.  A standard 30rd mag only holds 10 rds of .458, still holds 30rds of .300.  Recoil is much more significant, making follow up shots more difficult.  And to top it off, most of the .458s on the market at the moment come from reverse engineered chamber reamers, which means chances are higher that they aren't up to snuff.

Ok, you convinced me to cross the .458 off the list, mostly due to weight, capacity and cost.  So it would be the only one left standing, but..New question: Has anyone been able to run 6.8 SPC II subsonic? If so I see the only draw back being higher cost due to more non-standard parts. And from what I just read earlier today manufactures are starting to really crank out the ammunition?

It's looking more and more like the B.O. is the more logical choice no matter how deep I dig. Hmm whats this 6.8 BSP? *reading*

I wouldn't do 458.   Ammo would be insanely expensive in any quantity.  And even reloading, the components are pricey.  And magazine cap and your carrying capacity are limited.

Do 300 AAC Blackout.  Supersonics have more energy than 556.  And decent range without undue drop.  And going subsonic takes it into scary quiet territory.  And ammo is somewhat more reasonable.  If you load, making brass from 556 isn't a big deal and its MUCH cheaper than 458.  Meaning more ammo for your prep dollar.  I do like the fact it uses all available regular AR components except the barrel.

I don't understand the jump from disaster firearm under extreme use to suppressed special caliber gun. And the conversation should include what the gun will shoot, and how far away.

It's been said Mission Drives Equipment, so, exactly what is the point of the gun? Self defense, ok, hunting edible game, ok, too. In the self defense situation it can be as diverse as urban combat to completely off grid. For food, usually not so urban. With that in mind, it's only going to take .22LR to .308 for the majority of the live targets. As you can only take so much in one 85 pound backpack, it's practical to consider that it's going to be just one cartridge and one weapon.

Most of the engagements with humans will be at relatively close ranges, well under 350m. Same with game. No pistol round will do that, and an extreme long range precision rifle is simply asking too much - if you are walking the streets hiking out of town to get back to home, it's not a discreet carry gun, it's a huge sign saying this dude should be taken down - and somebody for some reason might try.

I second the vote on a pistol AR - at 25.1/2" it will fit in a bag, broken down, ready for you to use if needed. Otherwise, there's no point to reveal it until necessary. If it's an AR, no reason to go up in bullet diameter for the negative offset of hard to find ammo that costs much more to practice with. So - stick to 5.56. As a 6.8 owner I can say it only gets shot when I need to keep it sighted in, but the 5.56 gun gets shot for fun - ammo is 3x cheaper. .300BO doesn't have cheap plinker ammo on the market anymore than 6.8 or 6.5Grendel, and that is what eventually stymies growth in alternate calibers. No Cheap Ammo.

Do you need a suppressor? If bullets are flying, it won't suppress their guns, or the guy teamed next to you. You need active electronic hearing protection, which is about 10 times cheaper than a suppressor and doesn't register you with the .Gov as someone to investigate - which is exactly what they have to do by law to allow you to have it. Even prior service LEO with Secret clearance still get that. You aren't trusted until you pay and then wait - all to have something on the barrel that will not keep the action from making noise and to work well needs downloaded ammo that doesn't have sonic crack breaking the sound barrier. The result is a weapon that can't reach out effectively to 350m. It's only useful for the urban combat scene inside buildings, where the military prefers it because teammates are usually in very close proximity. And they still wear electronic ear pro anyway. The suppressor just cuts down on blast near your face.

A firearm may well be needed in a bugout bag, but a suppressed SBR is something that only fits a narrow set of circumstances to fully justify. Having learned some lessons over the years owning an HK91, training with the M16, hunting with a 6l8 AR15 - I went with an AR pistol with 10.5" barrel. It's basically a KISS version of the MK18, which is mostly used for shipboarding or CQB missions. The military uses MK262 77gr OTM, for the few times I might need to shoot live targets Black HIlls is offering a TMK with better BC - if and when I can find some. Otherwise 69gr hunting loads will do.

That and a pair of Peltor active hearing muffs and it's good to go - the latest hunting rig, which will double the number of days available to deer hunt and amplify my hearing as needed.

Do you hunt? Goes to how to you keep up with traveling overland in inclement weather, know your gear and clothing works, and keep in shape? It won't do any good to find out when the world goes upside down, it will be too late. Gun up with something you know and practice with cheaply - we haven't discussed water purification, solar battery charging, or what you do when you wake up and find it's all gone.

For a bug out bag the last thing I would choose is a gun that's in a caliber that is not very common which describes the 300 blackout and 458 socom. I have a 300 BO gun that has an 8" barrel and suppressor, it is not the gun I will be grabbing if I have to bug out because I see 5.56 being easier to get either from a store or battlefield pickup. Now if your just looking for a fun quiet gun to shoot I love my blackout, I load subsonic rounds for it and plan on taking it deer hunting this year with supers.

I was thinking having a weapon that doesn't scream I'M OVER HERE! AND I JUST SHOT SOMETHING! Because I took a shot at a fox, calf, deer, whatever. Could be quite advantageous in such a situation.

I have electronic ear muffs,  but they don't help make my weapon quieter to anyone else. I have a large gym bag my .22lr breaks down to fit in the same bag with the AR just fine, and I bet you can't guess what it is, cause it's not a Ruger 10/22. The whole idea would be a weapon that would aid me and my family in staying hidden while taking game if the opportunity arose, that could also be used for self defense, and wasn't big and heavy. It's not something I would be shooting a hell of a lot, or in any senario other than some BS dream world would need to likely expend a large amount either. However the availability once things have gone to shit is a good point.

That said then I'm back to .300 B.O. or 5.56 in a suppressed SBR (because I like real stocks)

One reason I wasn't concerned about common ammo so much, was I'm not going to be carrying around 2,000 rounds of ammo or some retarded shit. Hell 20 mags would be pushing it  big time imo. and that's what 600 rounds.

I have a suppressed SCAR, it makes a huge difference.(7.62x51)
Now that you want a suppressor slide over to the suppressor sub forum and gather some more good ideas.

In any situation that I can think of where the world has gone so tits up that civilians are hunting for game for survival, game is wiped out in a matter of a couple of weeks or so.

If you want a suppressor, then go for it...but if your only justification is 'silent game getting', I think you're wasting your time.

It's not all tacticool or anything, and certainly not as sexy as a suppressed, tax-stamp covered rifle/pistol in an exotic caliber, but for four or five hundred dollars, you could procure enough tasty protein sources now that would keep you and yours fed without you ever having to leave the safety of your home, and leaving your family defenseless.

You need to hear and try a 5.56 AR supressed sometime before you go to a more exotic caliber and round. They get pretty impressively quiet and still have the punch to kill a deer at 300 yards in a 16" barrel. You need to unlearn all the taticool BS you read on this sight. I shot my first deer with Hornady 75 grn TAP at 373 yards out of a 20" barrel. It exited after destroying both lungs. DRT.

I would just buy a good quality supressor and stop focusing on clearing rooms with your shorty two stamp wonder plinker. You are better off with a great AR and great ammo.

^ One of the most sensible and direct posts I've seen in a long time.
I second what he said.

I just got finished converting a 300BO pistol to an SBR by adding a stock. (10.5" barrel). I also bought an Omega suppressor for it, and all the stamps just came in last week. So, I haven't shot it all together yet, but I'm happy with what I see.

To those who say to use .223 for deer, in this AO, that will wind you up in the klink, as it's very illegal. That's one of the reasons I converted one of my 5.56 pistols to a .300BO. It was the cheapest route to a legal deer rifle for me. All I needed was a .300BO barrel.

Obviously you would not use a 5.56 AR to hunt deer every year, but during shtf how exactly would anyone bother to arrest you for it? I only stated that it was effective.

Not concerned with killing the animal. I'm concerned with having to track it 300 yards if I made a bad shot or took a bad shot because it was my only shot.


I think I just figured out what i'm gonig to do. I'll just get a Ruger American in .22LR w/threaded muzzle and I will put a suppressir on that, the AR can then be used for defense and mid-sized game. Deer shouldn't be a BIG issue I suppose with a good hunting bullet like Barnes or something, I don't need but say 1-2 mags of those and keep the rest loaded with Silver Bear SP, Fusion or M193. I suppose asking what I am of 1 weapon is a pretty tall order. This is both more economical (cheaper), simpler and still does most of what I was looking for... I can just subtitue the .22lr my wife would have with the Ruger.

ETA: And i'm going to strart another AR build possibly next week, the plan at the moment is 5.56 but with a shorter barrel, right now I'm thinking 14.5" pinned, or maybe a AR pistol but I have mixed feelings on those.

Opinions?

(P.S.) I have read it before, but should I go the pistol for the new build. So long as I use a stripped lower reciever to start and don't put a stock on it, it's a pistol reguardless of length of barrel correct?

I would suppress a 16" barreled Ruger American in a heart beat before paying for an extra tax stamp on my AR. I like 10/22's so that would be my first choice. 2 MOA red dot sighted in for 60 yards puts you inside a squirrel head out to 75 yards.

Is this for a GHB or similar?  If so, carrying 2 rifles, 20 AR mags, and everything else you need is extremely unrealistic.

Then get a 22 pistol with a rimfire can, and get proficient with it.

Go with a 8" 300 blackout and a short. 30 cal can.  SilencerCo Omega or a Deadair Sandman S.  Quiet with subsonics and performance with supersonics.

Without reading all the other responses, I'll say this:

300 Blackout.
Ammo is available in many locations. I've seen BO ammo at Walmart.
You can go from AK type ballistics in a supersonic round, all the way to subsonic, super quiet rounds.
Basically, anything inside 300 yards is fair game with the supersonic rounds.
I've not had a chance to shoot a BO with a can, but from everything I've read and seen, it is super quiet and it packs more punch than a subsonic 9mm or 45ACP.
All you need to change is a barrel. The rest is the same. Same mags, bolt, manual of arms, etc.
You can really get it in a tiny package using that DOLOS kit and such.

The other route? Get a CZ Scorpion and SBR it, or brace it. Slap a can on it and bam. I'd still take the 300BO.