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teddy12b
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Posted: 1/7/2013 1:12:38 PM
From time to time the topic comes up and while I don't see why I'd ever actually bury any of the things I've worked so hard to buy, I'd like to refresh myself on the basic rules of how to do it so that if/when you recover your items they are in good condition and serviceable.

1.) I'm assuming the container must be air tight.
2.) I'm assuming that the container must be at least 3' below ground to stay below the frostline.
3.) I'm assuming that you'd want the smallest container possible to hold whatever you wanted to minimize empty air space.
4.) I'm assuming that you'd want to put a coat of oil on anything metal you'd be burying.
5.) I'm assuming that you'd want to have O2 absorbers in the case for added protection.

While I don't see myself doing this I think it's an interesting topic and I like learning about new things. Is there anything you see that's blatantly wrong on this list, or anything that I should add?
vatopa
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Posted: 1/7/2013 1:55:11 PM
You missed the first and most important rule.

1, Don't let anyone else know where it is buried.

Rat_Patrol
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Posted: 1/7/2013 2:01:36 PM

Originally Posted By teddy12b:
From time to time the topic comes up and while I don't see why I'd ever actually bury any of the things I've worked so hard to buy, I'd like to refresh myself on the basic rules of how to do it so that if/when you recover your items they are in good condition and serviceable.

1.) I'm assuming the container must be air tight. Water tight is is what you need.
2.) I'm assuming that the container must be at least 3' below ground to stay below the frostline. Depends on your area. Such as a vertical PVC pipe, only the bottom needs to be below frost line.
3.) I'm assuming that you'd want the smallest container possible to hold whatever you wanted to minimize empty air space.
4.) I'm assuming that you'd want to put a coat of oil on anything metal you'd be burying. More like a grease, or cosmoline, or such. Oil will run off. Of course, you could fill the PVC pipe with oil and dump the metal <insert metal whatever here> in.
5.) I'm assuming that you'd want to have O2 absorbers in the case for added protection. Moisture absorbency is what you need. O2 of course won't hurt.

While I don't see myself doing this I think it's an interesting topic and I like learning about new things. Is there anything you see that's blatantly wrong on this list, or anything that I should add?

And OPSEC.
john575
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Posted: 1/7/2013 2:13:06 PM
Don't lose the map.
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rallykid
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Posted: 1/7/2013 2:43:57 PM
Make sure the ground is soft enough to dig. The ground is so hard where I am I bent a pick just trying to loosen up the ground enough to plant a small tree. Neighbor has a small bobcat and tore it up trying to dig up his yard. We aren't burying anything here anytime soon.
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BlkTracker
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Posted: 1/7/2013 3:18:51 PM
[Last Edit: 1/7/2013 3:28:37 PM by BlkTracker]
Originally Posted By Rat_Patrol:

Originally Posted By teddy12b:
From time to time the topic comes up and while I don't see why I'd ever actually bury any of the things I've worked so hard to buy, I'd like to refresh myself on the basic rules of how to do it so that if/when you recover your items they are in good condition and serviceable.

1.) I'm assuming the container must be air tight. Water tight is is what you need.
2.) I'm assuming that the container must be at least 3' below ground to stay below the frostline. Depends on your area. Such as a vertical PVC pipe, only the bottom needs to be below frost line.
3.) I'm assuming that you'd want the smallest container possible to hold whatever you wanted to minimize empty air space.
4.) I'm assuming that you'd want to put a coat of oil on anything metal you'd be burying. More like a grease, or cosmoline, or such. Oil will run off. Of course, you could fill the PVC pipe with oil and dump the metal <insert metal whatever here> in.
5.) I'm assuming that you'd want to have O2 absorbers in the case for added protection. Moisture absorbency is what you need. O2 of course won't hurt.

While I don't see myself doing this I think it's an interesting topic and I like learning about new things. Is there anything you see that's blatantly wrong on this list, or anything that I should add?

And OPSEC.


As stated a water tight/proof container. You can even run a bead of silicone to help seal off lids/ends if it doesn't have a rubber gasket. OPSEC as always, but depending on your family group situation more then one person should know the locations. Maps are great but physically showing someone where it is and the land marks helps too.

I "read" somewhere, and for the life of me I can't remember where, maybe it was a fiction novel.....but these people didn't want to leave all their supplies laying out in the open on there BOL (for multiple reasons) so they started burying supplies in strategic locations.

They said burying food grade 55 gal barrels (the ones with the screw tops) into the ground worked quite well. Mind you they had a tractor with backhoe which made short work of digging the a hole large enough to fit a 55 gallon drum........

If I remember correctly.....they checked the contents of the barrels a little over the one year mark and they were the same as the day they put in the ground. No noticeable rusting on any of the ammo cans or #10 cans. None of the ammo cans were pre-treated before burying.

Leaving some sort of tool in the 55 gal drum that lets you reach in to grab what ever it is you have stored inside is a sound idea if you go that route. Just in case you don't have the time or equipment to dig the actual 55 gal drum up and you just uncover the lid to access the contents (which is what they suggested). They also did not use any moisture absorbency or O2.

I think they even had a few guns stashed down there that made it one year without any issue. They just cleaned the weapons and applied a light coat of gun grease, wrapped them in a rag and vacuum sealed them (rag stopped the weapon from poking holes in the bag). Handguns where then placed into a ammo can, shotgun and KISS AR (AR was broken down) where just placed into the barrel.

I think this summer might mark the two year mark.....they did say they where going to unearth another one to see how everything held up at the two year mark.

I would also add that some people here have suggested salting the area you plan to use. Buy salting I mean either burying small metal parts around at random at different depths, sprinkling steel casings at random all with the intent of giving false hits to someone running a metal detector. And did anyone mention OPSEC?

Some evil bastard even suggested mixing gravel with the dirt above the buried drum to make digging by hand with a shovel tedious work......probably a good idea for that guy not to be present when you uncover the drum with a shovel



Hope that helps but remember, this is all something I vaguely remember reading about somewhere.......and I am just some guy on the internet.

Oh and OPSEC.




BT
EXPY37
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Posted: 1/7/2013 7:35:38 PM
A lot of folks think they can use silicone sealants for an effective long term seal and for the most part, IMO, they are dreaming.

I see these materials used a lot in maintenaince and the results are generally poor.

A better bet are the newer polyurethane sealants.

But a compressed gasket or O-ring is likely the most effective.



BlkTracker
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Posted: 1/7/2013 9:03:47 PM
In my previous post I was talking about running a bead of silicone in where the gasket or rubber o-ring normally would be, let it dry or set, then screw it down tight.....but in hind sight EXPY is right. There are better alternatives out there.




However, I do remember this one time I was experimenting with burying things in tubes, I have a nice stamp collection (the kind that you buy at the post office and mail letters with) and didn't want anything to happen to it so came up with ways to protect it......from the....um........the elements.

When using 8" black pvc pipe ( I have a lot of stamps in books that's why i needed the 8" pipe), you can seal the bottom with cement/sealant, take the screw top and cinch it down tight and run a nice thick bead of 100% white silicone in the thread/crack of the cap between the cap and pipe. Then I covered up the ends in a plastic trash bag because I figured it couldn't hurt, and buried it in the ground.

I unburied that tube 18 months later, and that silicone held up extremely well and was a major PITA to get off and under the cap. You may be pleasantly surprised to hear that during that 18 month stint my "TEST" stamps were in the same condition as when they had been sealed up.

In my experiment, in my AO (PNW) and timeline........the silicone held up very well in these conditions. As of now, 18 months is the longest I have waited.


BT
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Posted: 1/7/2013 10:02:32 PM
Has anyone ever buried a scope? How would it hold up being underground for ten years?
HomeSlice
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Posted: 1/7/2013 10:07:00 PM
Can you guys help me understand the concern about the frost line, and how that might impact a stamp collection?
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Rat_Patrol
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Posted: 1/7/2013 10:51:27 PM
[Last Edit: 1/7/2013 10:52:16 PM by Rat_Patrol]

Originally Posted By HomeSlice:
Can you guys help me understand the concern about the frost line, and how that might impact a stamp collection?

Frost pushes things up over time. If you bury the item within the frost layer, it will get pushed up. May take a few years, but it will poke out of the ground at some point.
ar-jedi
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Posted: 1/7/2013 10:55:41 PM
[Last Edit: 1/7/2013 10:58:35 PM by ar-jedi]
Originally Posted By HomeSlice:
Can you guys help me understand the concern about the frost line, and how that might impact a stamp collection?

in general, anything less dense than the soil itself can slowly be brought to the surface by the action of "frost heaving".
to ward off this problem, the item must be buried below the frost line. this is why foundation footings, for example, are
buried below the frost line per code...

http://www.huduser.org/portal/publications/destech/strdesign.html
http://www.huduser.org/Publications/pdf/strdesign.pdf
http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/oftdc/1998/images/ICODA2008081817542104946.jpg

interesting:
http://woodgears.ca/cottage/foundation.html

ar-jedi

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BlkTracker
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Posted: 1/7/2013 11:32:32 PM
Originally Posted By Rat_Patrol:

Originally Posted By HomeSlice:
Can you guys help me understand the concern about the frost line, and how that might impact a stamp collection?

Frost pushes things up over time. If you bury the item within the frost layer, it will get pushed up. May take a few years, but it will poke out of the ground at some point.


+1 for what Rat just said........


I have buried a barrel less then one foot from the surface, just over the year mark we opened it up and everything inside seemed fine, no rust, no moisture. It was a "food barrel" full of #10 cans.

IMHO, so long as you use the right container with a good seal, and prep the items inside accordingly, you should be fine.

Something to remember...... round here in the winter time digging down 40 some inches below the frost line is next to impossible. Hence why I experimented with shallow food caches.




BT
lukus
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Posted: 1/8/2013 12:41:07 AM
At least around here, the plastic barrels will crush in as the dirt swells from moisture. Even smaller 5 gallon buckets will squeeze in from the expansion and contraction of the soil.
teddy12b
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Posted: 1/8/2013 11:28:50 AM
An additional concern I have is that if I ever experimented with this it'd be in sandy soil near a river. In that case the in the event of a flood, I'd want as much air out of the container as possible so that the air wouldn't bring it up like a bobber. Obviosly I wouldn't experiment with this kind of thing where it would intentionally flood, but it could happen in certain areas and it's something else to take into consideration.

If I'm correct the standing rule on getting below the frost line is 3' or more. I think digging 3' or more of frozen dirt out during the winter would be a major undertaking and a pain in the arse, but if that's what you have to do you could always make that happen. Might be a good time to have a camp fire on top of the area first, if possible.
R2point0
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Posted: 1/8/2013 11:57:21 AM
Originally Posted By EXPY37:
A lot of folks think they can use silicone sealants for an effective long term seal and for the most part, IMO, they are dreaming.

I see these materials used a lot in maintenaince and the results are generally poor.

A better bet are the newer polyurethane sealants.

But a compressed gasket or O-ring is likely the most effective.





Agree. Elastomeric sealants rely on their adhesion to the substrate to make the seal; if the bond breaks, either via poor surface prep or flex due to frost heaving, etc., it ceases to be effective. Using adhesive sealants in place of o-rings is even worse - those joints are specifically designed to work with a gasket that compresses. Putting sealant in the groove and tightening up leaves the joint without that compressed element.

One thing I would advise is liberal use of a suitable o-ring lubricant. Not only does it help with assembly and tightening, minimizing the chances of pinching the seal, but some formulas are designed to make the material swell, increasing the sealing force.
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Rat_Patrol
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Posted: 1/8/2013 12:10:45 PM

Originally Posted By teddy12b:
An additional concern I have is that if I ever experimented with this it'd be in sandy soil near a river. In that case the in the event of a flood, I'd want as much air out of the container as possible so that the air wouldn't bring it up like a bobber. Obviosly I wouldn't experiment with this kind of thing where it would intentionally flood, but it could happen in certain areas and it's something else to take into consideration.

If I'm correct the standing rule on getting below the frost line is 3' or more. I think digging 3' or more of frozen dirt out during the winter would be a major undertaking and a pain in the arse, but if that's what you have to do you could always make that happen. Might be a good time to have a camp fire on top of the area first, if possible.

I wouldn't bury in a flood plane. Flood waters are POWERFUL. It is also hard to simulate a flood, unless you bury it in a river bed during the fall, and look for it after the spring melt.

Also, if my thinking is correct, removing the air from the container will lower density, thus causing MORE of a 'floating' action. You would want to increase the density: use lead shot or such to weight it down so it won't float. Things don't float due to air, things float due to density differences in a fluid.
EXPY37
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Posted: 1/8/2013 1:23:23 PM
[Last Edit: 1/8/2013 2:03:15 PM by EXPY37]
There's a two part sealant used in many aps, and one is in aircraft maintenance and assembly.

A brand is ProSeal and is a 2 part urethane compound that's use to seal, for example, wing tank assemblies in many light aircraft for jet and avgas fuel.

It's used many other ways to, to seal windows, fairings, etc.

Google Avial or Aircraft Spruce for more info.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/prosealant.php

Single part urethane adhesives are now readily available from hardware stores as building caulking. The grey masonry caulk is my go to for sealing metal buildings and various projects.

It has a bond that doesn't release like silicone adhesives. Amazing stuff.




EXPY37
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Posted: 1/8/2013 1:32:38 PM
[Last Edit: 1/8/2013 1:39:39 PM by EXPY37]
There is a grey "self leveling" urethane readily available now for fixing masonry cracks, comes in a caulking tube, is runny and works great.

In the past year or two I must have used a 100 tubes of various adhesives.

Most of these [except the 2 part ones] depend on air to cure and so filling a narrow void like a pipe cap will take a while to cure.

It's probably a good idea to drill and tap a pipe thread in the thickest part of a cap and purge the inside with a gentle air flow for a couple days and then install a plastic or brass pipe plug with teflon tape or urethane sealant.


Spartikis
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Posted: 1/8/2013 2:21:30 PM
Frost line varies, where i used to live in Northern Ohio it was typically 6', in southern Ohio its 4'. Since Indiana is roughly the same latitudes I'm going to say you want to be in that range.

Source: I'm a Civil Engineer
Moondog
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Posted: 1/8/2013 2:22:15 PM
Regarding landmarks for locating buried items, I read that during the Great Depression, it was common for farmers to bury glass or ceramic jugs along fence lines as a means to store and hide their money and valuables. They were more concerned with people accidentally working up ground, so fence lines and property markers were pretty safe.
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Posted: 1/8/2013 2:49:07 PM
Cosmoline is good stuff but can be a major pain to remove. What I have found works rather well for the long term storage of metal parts is thick motor oil and newspapers. Dunk the iteml to be preserved in the oil. Remove it and wrap it in newspaper or similar paper three thicknesses. Dunk it again in the oil and wrap in plastic wrap. The plastic is only to keep the oil from evaporating and or getting all over other items. Don't use a plastic bag as this will trap moisture. I have stored bare metal machine parts in damp wet un-heated or cooled warehouses for decades without rusting. It would probably work well for other items but I wouldn't know anything about that.
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Posted: 1/8/2013 6:00:05 PM
What about VCI packets and vapor barrier bags. Would those work for ultra long term? Say longer than a year if you put desicant packs in the vapor bags with the metal items and the vci packets? Thanks.
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batmanacw
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Posted: 1/8/2013 6:03:33 PM
Burying below the frost line means no access to your cache for many months a year. I wouldn't put the top more than a foot under ground here.
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Posted: 1/8/2013 7:33:35 PM
[Last Edit: 1/8/2013 7:34:20 PM by Rodent]
Cover the top with a square of rigid foam insulation, then a layer of waterproof plastic, then dirt and leaves. The ground won't freeze under the insulation. You'll only have to chip through a few inches of frozen ground.