Just like an engineer, talk in circles and throw facts but no answers!
BTW, about the fastest way to offend people is to tell them your smart and a Egnijear.
Take it from an ME that has trained many over the years. The people that tell me "Trust me I'm an engineer" generally get blown off from the get-go.

Free shipping, nice.

Any chance I could convince you to make a few runs of "side-panel" armor?

I could use six, 6" X 8" flat panels for my few carriers' side pockets (at least,I believe that's the right size).

For what it's worth, congratulations on your research finally looking like it might pay off. "Persistence beats resistance", after all. Best of luck to you, sir!

Former11Bravo,

I can make any size you want.  We make 6x6 or 6x8 right now for side plates.  We make 10x12 or custom shapes up to 12x14 for front and back plates.  These are all formed in a 450 ton press to have a continuous curvature.  The 6x# plates have about 1/4" curvature.  The front/back have 1/2" to 5/8" of curvature, not the 4 individual brake press bends others do that work harden the steel locally which reduces ductility/toughness/ballistic resistance.

We individual pieces on Ebay if you search "Flash Bainite Body Armor".  Our business email for sales is "[email protected]" and we are already selling to two dealers who paint them, mark them up $50 a full set, and sell them at gun shows.

Not to be the wet blanket here but I'd like to pose a question to all of you who seem to be pondering running these plates.....What's the spall mitigation plan? I posted a link earlier in this post ref a guy who developed a method to decrease/ eliminate the spall. Is that the plan?

I can tell from my perspective running these straight in a carrier is not smart.  You're asking for a severed carotid or brachial artery....or maybe a femoral from the splash coming off of these it they aren't properly wrapped. In fact take a AR500 target and line up 2 IPSCs perpendicular on either side. Back up and run 2 or 3 rounds into the steel. That will be a very accurate analog as to what will be slashing up your arms, legs, face and throat if you use an unmitigated steel plate.  The $100 you saved won't seem very smart at that time..

As I cruise the SF it's apparent that many of the poster are just getting into the business of killing/surviving and it's important that no one walks away thinking that raw steel, regardless of composition and temper, is appropriate Body Armor. It's NOT.

So the question is....what's the plan to mitigate the splash?  


BL is that selling these as an ESAPI replacement is unethical as hell, regardless of the disclaimer on the web site.  It's beyond me why folks would try and save $100 on plates. If you need Body Armor then you NEED Body Armor. Buy the best that will do the job.

AM I understanding correctly though that one can still purchase them directly from you?

*Thanks for the quick response!  

ETA: To the poster questioning BL's ethics, regarding spall: FYI, spalling is indeed of great concern and an issue which must be addressed. Personally, I intend to do my own testing and then, if the plates prove adequate, to coat the plates myself with Rhino-liner.

I don't mind adding that your post comes off as pompous, presumptuous and wholly egotistical. Perhaps you might take a minute to reword it, as I have no doubt that was not your intent. Right?

Weight of Flash Bainite . . .   a 10x12 is about 8 lbs and a 6x8 side plate is 3.3lbs

BUT READ THIS.

it is not weight that matters, it is PERFORMANCE that you get from the weight.  According to US Army Labs testing that I just emailed to an AR15.com ask-er, here is the comparison of V50s to stop ZERO degree obliquity 0.30-cal M2AP  AND 20mm FSP:

10 pounds per square foot of Flash Bainite 500
12 psf of titanium armor
15-16psf of other steel armor like High Hard 500 Brinell (certified AR500)
17-18psf of aluminum armor

The comparison charts are on Ebay.com under "Flash Bainite Body Armor".  We list the US Army reports that the data was taken from and all are available on the internet.

Hope this helps, keep the questions coming.

Flash....
What about curving the plates,
1, to conform to the body, ie. same as ceramic plates
2, would this cause it to loose the strength
3, could your process be done with pre-curved plates, or is your process only designed for flat plates?

So, I decided to take up Flash Bainite's offer last night for his test reports. This morning I was sent three separate reports on testing that were from the US Army dating back to May of 2010. The first two had three separate tests for 30 cal AP, and the last had one for a 20mm. All passed. The reports look legit to me. I'm impressed. I think I'm going to  buy a small side plate to test it out. In my AO I doubt I will face anything AP (maybe SS109/M855). I guess I'll have to get some Kevlar fabric and make a wrap for it as well to see how well it contains fragments.

Honestly, I would be buying these plates for a SHTF/survival situation.

You owe it to yourself to read that 44 page post ref steel plate mitigation. IIRC Rhino liner didn't get it. The OP used Kevlar sheets cut to size and then glued/taped them to the steel plate. Once completed he then covered in nylon. I want to say it added about $75 to the cost of the plate, based on the materials that he used.  Also, my mistake on semantics....I was referencing splatter, not spalling. I'm sure these don't spall with normal small arms.

Ref my use of the term unethical. I meant exactly what I said and I stand by it. Not trying to project any ego or come off as pompous, etc..the intent is to warn the younger, less experienced members here that raw, un-mitigated steel plates SHOULD NEVER be used as a ballistic plate. If the Ebay disclaimer stated something to that effect I would certainly recant but it doesn't. The fact is that these are being sold as ballistic plates and 80% of the folks buying don't realize the danger.


Finally, I too don't mind adding that all too often I've seen throughout these types of boards and forums that a "love fest" often goes on between the poster and the manufacturers. In the ensuing love fest it seems that critical thinking seems to be lost.  I suppose it's the psychology of being able to connect into and feel a part of the industry. That's fine and no generally no harm done but I would humbly and politely suggest that everyone remain objectively critical, especially in terms of life support items such as body armor.

Tx-DevilDog,

We do make CURVED plates.  The 10x12 panels are put in a 450ton press.  They are bent to 1/2" to 5/8" curvature in a SINGLE radius stamping die.  The side plates have 1/2" of curvature since they are narrower.

THE OTHER GUYS' PLATES are bent 4 locations in a brake press.  This work hardens the steel locally in four places at the bend lines.  That increases the strength but reduces ductility and toughness locally.  I am sure the others will stop M2ball but those plates will have different performance in the flat vs bent areas.

FLASH BAINITE PLATES have a single formed radius to minimize any work hardening.  All of our testing is done on the CURVED Flash plates, including stopping SS109 green tip 5 of 5 times at 50 feet with an AR15 20" barrel.

Flash processing has been done on sheet, plate, round, and rectangular tubing.  It could be done on I-beams, C-channel, etc.  Flash Bainite at 1111F has been tested stronger than the A36 steel at room temperature which is used in the buildings today.

hello pdm,

I dont take offense with your comments as i have been hammered on by the best of them.  I fully agree the steel plates we have do not stop splatter.  I do like the post by someone though of the SHTF scenario.  We offer a lower cost, higher performance alternative than all the other folks selling $100Ks per year of just simple uncoated AR500 plates.  For now, it is our thought that it is better to get splattered in the arm and likely missing an artery than a bullet through the lung.  Not everyone can afford the expensive stuff.

We are working with a 35 year Sheriff, veteran, a retired Special Ops Colonel that still plays in the Sand, and many more to develop the a spall liner for our soon to be released AR600 that has already stopped 5.56-M193 at 50 feet.  SERIOUSLY, IF YOU HAVE SOME INSIGHT TO MAKE A LOW COST, ANTI-SPLATTER COVER, WE WOULD APPRECIATE YOUR INSIGHT TO BETTER PROTECT EVERYONE.

I like your quote from the USMC MG.  I too know dozens of General Officers who are fully behind Flash.  In fact, my business partner is the largest defense consulting firm in the World and employs 300 retired 1-4 Stars.

Our goal here is to protect people better that they would be by lesser performing AR500 made with 20th century heat/quench technology.  We ultimately will be making a Flash production that does twice the width of our current sheets.

As far as ETHICAL, It is time for the coverup/smear job that the US Army Lab TARDEC started 4-1/2 years ago to stop.  TARDEC tells everyone, including the Vice Chief of Staff of the Army, that i talked to, that they dont like Flash Bainite regardless of record setting testing at FOUR OTHER ARMY LABS (happy to email them to you).  I guess i should stop hiding the fact that the smear job started right after i refused to give a good friend of the research director exclusive military use rights to Flash.  Maybe the Army Inspector General should be the judge.  Although a friend of mine took Flash Bainite into TARDEC disguised as a different name.  TARDEC loved it until they found out it was GARY COLA's FLASH BAINITE.  The TARDEC meeting leader stood up and tried to leave the room purely because he did not like me and the Generals i work with promoting Flash.  If there is a lesson in ETHICS, it should be given to TARDEC Survivability.

I am impressed sir.

If I had the cash I would up armor my truck with this stuff......

Former11BRAVO,

Thanks for the support and yes Flash Bainite AR500 plates can be bought from me still.  I own the patents, have the Pilot production line, and am the only one in the world making Flash Bainite.  I am happy to share all the Aberdeen Test Center data with you and only ask that you post to this blog that it looks for real.

If you too have ideas on a better splatter system, lets talk.  While this may sound crazy, it is not my goal to make a fortune off body armor.  It IS my goal to get Flash Bainite out there in the world and protecting people better than all that common uncoated AR500 seemed like a good way to start.

Ultimately, Flash's ideal use is for A-cab hull of armored vehicles.  Notice that the three aluminum Joint Light Tactical Vehicles made of aluminum were cut from the competition.  The three steel A-cabs won.  I spent a lot of time educating folks on pound per pound strength and pound per pound ballistic resistance.

We are setting test records currently working with Auto OEMs on door impact beams and other high strength impact areas.  These OEMs make 1/4 of the world's cars.  Flash Bainite will be protecting families in minivans soon enough too.

Country_Boy,

You got it right on a new way to make bainite. What we do stumped the world's very best metallurgists for over four years.  We now know exactly why we make bainite in only 80 milliseconds and nobody else can do it without pirating our tech.

What we found is that we make 20% bainite and 80% martensite in only 5 seconds in dozens of low cost steel alloys.  Academics have known for over 30 years that 20/80 makes steel its absolute strongest.  ThyssenKrupp (Steel) Lab Services has test Flash AR600 to be pound for pound 14% stronger than the very best specs for titanium-6Al-4V STA Bar and still more ductile.  Flash AR600 is 290-300,000psi strength but still 8-10% ductility.

Flash is a topic of interest at Cambridge University UK at next year's conference.  Cambridge is the leading metallurgy University in the world (http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/apms/submit.html).

I am happy to share as much data as you want to see.  We have nothing to hide and are on a mission to help as many as we can.

E__WOK,

I agree 100% "let the armor speak for itself". It makes an awesome sound when the bullets are stopped.

If you are volunteering to shoot and report back to us all, a sample will mail tomorrow.

I would like to know what would happen if you laminate 1/4" of aluminum over this product to eliminate splatter.

to batmanACW,

good question and worthy of a test.  Adding 1/4" of aluminum for sure will add 2.8 pounds to the weight of a front plate.  I have a machine shop (we are a Boeing Gold Supplier) so i have easy access to material.

Tomorrow, I will try M2ball at 50 feet with 1/8", 3/16", and 1/4" aluminum as a spall liner at 1.4, 2.1, or 2.8 lbs respectively.  If it works, that would be a dirt cheap solution at <$10 for the aluminum.

Just plain stopping M2AP at 0d obliquity, steel always beats aluminum for a V50.  Against 20mm FSP, under 18 pounds per square foot (1.25" aluminum or just less than 1/2" steel) the RHA steel will outperform aluminum too.  Aluminum is beneficial because it is a gummy metal that is three times thicker than the steel.  Since splatter mostly runs parallel to the armor plate surface, aluminum might do the trick for the first dozen shots as long as they are spaced apart.

There might be a problem with separation between the aluminum to steel interface channeling the "splatter" straight out to the sides.  
This story sounds so much like Rearden Metal from Atlas Shrugged.  If it indeed is as good an item as it sounds to be then I for one will be purchasing a full set.

Thank you!

Very interesting accomplishment to say the least. I hope you have great success as you move forward.

One thing you would want to consider if you buy these plates to rino line them yourself; you have to do a surface prep on the treated steel plate, depending on the thickness of this treating then you may well be reducing teh effectiveness with even a light commercial blast when prepping them for coating. If you plan on just wiping it down and coating, you may not have the SPATTER resistance you are trying for.

So I guess the question for the manufacturer is- how deep into the surface is the treatment and will a sand blasted surface destroy the treatment?


edit spall for splatter

Spall and splatter are entirely different issues.

I am thinking a very tough flexible glue would work fine. I would be very pleased if it held up to a few rounds to start. If you could really bond the aluminum to the steel it would be really nice.

Flashbainite, I'm in no way hammering you or your product. This is a technical forum with the intent of critically discussing equipment and gear. My comments are in the spirit of the forum,  meant to share my opinions and critically discuss  the effectiveness and dangers of using steel as a PPE ballistic plate.

- Your question to me in bold CAPs ref sharing data on mitigating the splatter was addressed twice in this post. Look for the link I posted. Another board member developed and tested a solution that seems to work. The issue with his solution seems to be cost, material and time. His process, IIRC, added $75 to the cost of each plate.  Also multiple close hits seem to be a problem as they degenerate the kevlar and then the splatter returns.


- I find the logic of your statement, "For now, it is our thought that it is better to get splattered in the arm and likely missing an artery than a bullet through the lung.  Not everyone can afford the expensive stuff.",  somewhat misleading,  The facts are that ESAPI plates are available for about $200 all day long.  That delta in price is minimal based on the fact that the ESAPI technology is purpose built and battle tested.  The pates that you're offering are initially cheaper in price but once the time and effort is spent to mitigate the splatter the price of the steel plate climbs somewhat significantly.

Taking high velocity splatter is not a minimal hazard. Lot's of war stories here and I won't bore the group as I'm sure many others have seen the same thing. Hot metal traveling at a couple thousand feet per second will ruin your day.

Most importantly is that the use of steel plates for PPE is not an acceptable use for the material.  I am aware of some the advanced DARPA studies as well as work within the national labs and industry on next gen PPE. None of those studies, as far as I'm aware, are pondering the use of hardened steel to defeat projectiles.

- Your comment ref accusing DoD and the Army of fraud are inappropriate for this forum and not pertinent to this discussion. You are essentially accusing someone of a crime....did you request an inquiry and what did the IG findings show?  Also, TARDEC is one the agencies that addresses vehicle survivability, not PPE.  I'm confident in saying that no one in the USG is even remotely considering hardened steel plates for PPE. The efficiency (weight to effectiveness ratio/ cost) is just not there.


- I would be very interested in the performance of the Al clad steel plates though I tend to think that multiple hits will smear the Al, expose the steel and result in the same problem.  If I may be so bold as to make a suggestion if you do test it tomorrow please take a long piece of cardboard about 2 feet wide  and tape it into a tube about 2 feet in diameter. Place this in front and shoot through the tube to hit the steel. I'd be very interested in the visual of the resulting splatter pattern.

Also remember to test using a glacias angle, e.g a shallow angle to determine if the bullet will "run" the plate and continue in a re-directed trajectory. The example that comes to mind is a shooter in the prone taking a glancing chest shot and the bullet ending up in his groin.

Finally, you're a small business owner and I WANT you to succeed! I'd say your sweet spot is in the CIV LAV market and vehicle armor upgrade kits. I personally would be interested in bolt-on kits for a Toyota Tacoma.

Hello Bizarro,

I agree with channeling concern but am pretty sure i have a workaround that might be patentable so i cant share right now.  

Rearden Metal is an understatement.  You can have a dozen A+ reports and all it takes is a few opinionated naysayers that did no testing at all to stall a project.  Our naysayers came in the form of the big steel companies (except for the one that tried a hostile takeover during negotiations), TARDEC smears for reasons stated, and Colorado School of Mines since i proved them wrong on a 30 year old metallurgical debate.

We just got another range report, this time from a Vegas Sheriff stopping rounds he didnt expect to . . . at 30 feet.  

If you want a free 6x6" sample, all i need is an address and it will go out tomorrow.

hello roguetrader,

thanks for the comments.  Flash Bainite is a through thickness heat treatment that has already worked with consistent hardness though up to 3/8" thick.  We are going to try to use "Herculiner" (like Rhinolining) tomorrow.  We will sandblast clean half the plate and leave the other half with the very thin smooth Flash "oxide" on the other half.

From what i hear there is a debate on this forum as to whether or not it works so i will just try it and find out.

So many in Armor systems develop their own "cake batter".  What i do know for sure is the folks that used Flash in their solutions for reactive armor, kit armor, and stopping blast, all saw an improvement when they substituted same weight Flash into the cake batter mix instead of High Hard 500.

Hello pdm,

If you want to try Flash for your Toyota Tacoma bolt on kit, i would be pleased to send samples for you to test.  Your feedback on this forum would be great.

Thanks for the suggestion on the cardboard circle.  I keep hearing that splatter runs parallel to plate but the cardboard circle will show for sure.

We usually dont test beyond 30d obliquity.  Our sweet spot has been the 0d obliquity testing as it appears Flash 500 does not suffer from "shatter gap" against M2AP.  How does ESAPI perform off a glacias shot?

Thanks for the CIV LAV suggestion.  Unfortunately, they want a 4x10 foot minimum sheet size to work with and i can only make 2x12 foot pieces on our Pilot line.  We have even been talking to the CEOs of the Primes.  They too want 4x10 or bigger and have written letters of support in attempts to win the ever elusive government grants.  Steel just doesnt win grant money and wasnt even on the budget line for over a decade.

Well if it's weldable why don't you just weld 2 sections together for the 4x10 sample? a weld would only prove the effectiveness of the product

thanks for the welding idea.  We tried welding at Edison Welding Institute (aka the US Navy Joining Center) with both GMAW and laser welding.  The GMAW problem is that even with ER120 rod, the strength dropped to 129ksi from our Flash material's 260ksi.  They just don't make a welding rod strong enough.  We are part of the National Science Foundation's Industry/University Cooperative Research Center for welding/joining (NSF-I/UCRC-CIMJSEA) at Ohio State University and no one there has a solution either.  With the laser welding, the Heat Affected Zone width dropped significantly.  We tested M2ball and found that penetration zone was 1.5" wide with GMAW.  it dropped to 3/4" wide with laser welding but that is still not good enough.

The Primes and CIV/LAV want a plate with no weld seams prior to cutting on the their flat lasers.

An awesome thing we found though was that the HAZ in the Flash seam had no brittle hard spots that are prone to failure.  When you do a hardness test, entering the HAZ, the Flash steel softens, gets softer at the weld, and then hardens on the way back out to Flash material.  Other High Hards that get welded have brittle, untempered hard spots in the HAZ right at the edge of the parent material.  That makes the Flash weld less likely to see brittle failure.  OSU just finished writing a Masters thesis on all this . . . lots of fun to read!!!

How about friction stir welding?

Friction Stir is a great idea. The only snag is that Flash 500 is 50 Rockwell C and Flash 600 is 57 Rockwell C or so.  The FSW tooling just cant take pushing through Flash unless they have improved it.  We have looked into Thermal Stir but that cuts back on the ballistic resistance again due to the heat they have to put into it to make it "stir".

FSW was awesome for aluminum armor.  The only problem with aluminum though is that it is really ballistically in-efficient on a per weight basis against M2AP.

What temperature starts to temper the bainite?  I need to go look at the steel chart.
What is the response to cold temperature?
You claimed a penny per pound in heat treating costs?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

the two different guys in this thread..the "OP" and now the "company"

sound very alike and almost like a chinese/nigerian email....

I'm glad to find out about this stuff. Wouldn't it be great to buy steel much thinner than other types of steel to use to armor under the sheetrock around the doors and windows in your home to make them bullet proof? How about anyone being able to afford to make their car bullet resistant without huge weight?

I would love to know how much punishment 1/8" bainite could take.

I don't think you can temper banite- it's not a stable form, and i suspect at some point you revert back to austinite (normal hot steel) which will slow cool into pearlite (carbide in soft ferite), or can be forced  by rapid cooling into martensite (hard but brittle)  But I don't see any way to improve the bulk properties.  It may be possable to case harden or apply a nitride layer to the outside.

I don't know much about banite, and what I do know is covered by an NDA<, though it was so long ago, I doubt anyone cares.  Another neat one I messed with was Duralcan- a mixture of aluminum and silicon carbide.

Hello jchewie1,

The energy required to heat a 1/4" strip of steel from room temp to 1950F moving at 30 inches per minute is about a penny a pound.  We do it with a 2000 Amp/ 480V service from DTE Energy, a $350K, 1 megawatt Bone Frontier induction unit (that we bought new but a few years old on Ebay for $20K) and a custom copper coil.

US Army ARDEC duplicated our testing at -40F and found no ductile to brittle transition other than just a gentle lowering of performance.  All who read the report were very pleased.  If you have clearance, i can get you a copy.

We heat to 1950F in a few seconds followed by a hard water quench.  The bainite starts to form at about 1202F and stops at 1022F, all in about 80 milliseconds.  This is a very high temp for bainite formation.  The Flash Bainite microstructure is 20% bainite and 80% martensite which is known to be how to make steel alloys their strongest.  We do not take the steel over 450F for optimum performance.  We have published papers that show that heating to 932F will still maintain 77-79% strength after cooling.  Also, Flash Bainite 500 is stronger at 1111F than the A36 used in I-beams is at room temperature.

For the most part, steel charts wont help you.  We are working with heterogenous chemistry steel loaded with hard carbides.  It took Ohio State University (best welding school for rapid heat treat cycling) over four years to finally nail down an explanation why we could make 20% bainite in 80milliseconds instead of many minutes/hours.

if you want to talk metallurgy offline, let me know
Gary

batmanACW,

At US Army Aberdeen Test Center V50s as follows:
1/8" flash 500 stopped 0.30-cal M2AP at 0d obliquity at 1135fps.  My guess is that it would stop just about any handgun then but i have not done the testing.

3/16" flash 500 stopped 0.30-cal M2AP at 0d obliquity at 1651fps.  The passing spec according to Mil Dtl 12560J for 1/4" is 1596fps .  If 3/16" Flash performs better than specs for 1/4" RHA (High Hard is worse against this threat at 0d obliquity) weight savings are possible for sure.

NOTE:  this is data i paid for and is not classified because the ballistic mass efficiency is under 2.0.

Country_Boy is right.  Bainite does not temper.  It will turn fully back into austenite above the upper austenization temperature (over 1400F).  What we found out is that if you rapidly heat bainite back to over 1700F in just a few seconds, it does not turn back into bainite unless you hold it there for a while.

However, the whole magic in Flash Bainite processing is that we take the slow cooled steel (ferrite/pearlite) that he mentions.  The ferrite has little if any carbon while the pearlite is roughly 0.80%wt C.  Since we only heat for a few seconds and then hard quench, approx 20% of our microstructure from the low carbon areas turns into bainite.  The 80% turns into high carbon martensite.  This 20/80 bainite/martensite mixture is like woven fiberglass on the 5-7 micron scale.  The Flash bulk properties are so good because the nanoproperties are so extreme.  

Like the Duralcan work he mentions, we also start with hard carbides in the Flash Precursor steel.  Since they dissolve slowly, not in 2-3 seconds of heating, the carbides remain.  We basically have a bainite/martensite/chromium carbide "iron based metal matrix composite".  The carbides interrupt crack propogation and look like the teeth on a saw when you finally split Flash apart.  The carbides also love to shatter bullets which is why people like them so much.

Never mind, already answered

Thanks for the offer but there are others who would be better at performing the testing.

When you say your armor is weldable, does the weld have any ballistic properties, or is normal non bainite steel armor generally not weldable?

I wonder what the effect the heat of welding or that of a cutting torch would have on the localized area? I would also be interested in how much this steel costs and if you can buy in smaller dementions.

Regarding larger panels for vehicles:

Could you use a tongue 'n groove joint - or, an overlapping dado of sorts.

If you can harden materials up to 3/8", could you not mfg bolts and have a bolt-on backing plate - along with a weld along the front-facing joint (and the edges of the backing plate, for that matter)?

Heck! A dado joint that's reinforced with bolted-on backing plates should be doable - no? Or, is a solid, seamless panel prerequisite?

* If these questions are inane, please forgive me. I'm less than a layman where metallurgy/steel fabrication is concerned! I'm just throwing out ideas as they come to mind. (Hope that's not annoying!)

** Layman or not, I'd be happy to (unscientifically) test a piece or two & film/post the test(s) and end results. Please, zap me an IM if that's a possibility. Thanks.

Sure you can send me a piece and I'll run some testing on it.  I believe that I have a couple pieces of AR500 laying around and I'd like to do a side-by-side penetration test. Remember though, I'm also going to do splatter testing and those results may not be pretty.

The 30d oblique shots are the DoD testing standard and ESAPI contain the projectile at that angle.

Somewhat joking ref the ToYo upgrade....that would entail a lot more than 500 lbs of armor..

Question: is this steel ITAR compliant for export? If so, you may want to market to the overseas LAV industry that caters to clients in MEX, COL, etc...

Grant money is a function of a lot of factors....only some of which are the efficacy of the product. I'd suggest that your GO advisors conduct a "Blue" political-socio-economic study to better understand where this product might gain domestic manufacturing traction and political capital. Understand these 2 factors and 75% of the battle is done. I'd start mapping these folks....HASC

I have no doubt the splatter tests will be ugly. That is why I would rather come up with an interesting way of catching the splatter. I am also thinking about buying a 6x6" piece of ar500 to pound on next to this stuff so I can see how it holds up over hundreds or thousands of rounds.

I'm convinced that all steel will eventually fail.  In the early 90's we used a shooting house that had 4" Battleship armor as the exterior walls. The Navy gave us a truck load of the stuff and even delivered with a crane. We had thought that the stuff would be indestructible but after a year or 2 holes were found in a high wear area during one of the inspections. 855 has a way of eventually dimpling and and then eroding steel.  I know I've torn up AR500....

All weld seams that i have seen are less than armor quality.  The weld filler rod that i see used by Primes is ER120 at best.  At 120ksi or so, the hardness is just not enough to stop muzzle velocity M2Ball.  This is a function of the weld filler rod chemistry, not the armor being welded.  The search is on for a weld consumable that could become armor quality but i dont believe it exists.  That is why we are stuck with lap joints or cover plates over welds.

From what I have heard, large welded assemblies of High Hard 500 are often pre-heated/post tempered to avoid cracking.  At the edge of the High Hard plate, right next to the weld filler material, the High Hard plate re-hardens into fresh, untempered martensite.  This is brittle and the site of failure.  We have test results from Edison Welding Institute (US Navy Joining Center) that shows this.

Flash Bainite panels, right next to the weld filler material, do not re-harden into mostly brittle, fresh martensite.  EWI/US-NJC testing shows that when two 1/4" panels of Flash Bainite are welded, the steel starts to soften at the edge of the HAZ, gets softest at the filler rod, and then hardens on the way out of the HAZ toward the Flash again.  This phenomena occurs because the 20% bainite portion of the Flash does not temper and even the 80% martensite constituent is formed at higher temperatures than martensite that is formed in High Hard.

The width of the HAZ is the same for Flash and High Hard as it is more a function of weld skill set.

Hello setlab,

Keeping the steel under 450F does no damage at all.

We use a fast moving NTC laser to cut so the re-cast layer is all but gone when we radius off the edge of the panels.  I also use a high powered, hand held plasma that I can move at about 50-60 inches per minute.  You can touch the steel with gloves on at all times so the damage, if any, is minimal.  We have shot the edge of plasma cut targets and they just bend when a "half bullet" hits them.

If you use an oxyacetylene, i am sure there would be damage.

If you are looking for smaller dimension pieces, send me a message and we can talk offline.

Former11Bravo,

Thanks for the ideas.  If you or I were in production to make a CIV LAV, we could make Flash work as most parts are smaller than the 2x11 foot pieces we make.  You just need to organize them before cutting them out.  Unfortunately, all the CIV LAV makers and Primes i have talked to say it is not worth the trouble to work with less than 4x10 pieces even if the results are 10-20% incrementally better.  The Army has minimum specs to pass for JLTV.  It is well know that all you have to do is "pass".  There is no bonus in the decision making process for "passing with flying colors".

The reason we are now driving hard to make AR600 (Ultra Hard mil dtl 32332) is that this is not available in really big pieces and most of it is imported.  Once we have AR600 running as a frag resistant, readily weldable Ultra Hard (still with weak weld seams due to weld rod chemistry), there will be incentive for the Primes to adapt.  That's why Army Research Lab has interest in our progress.