Yay or Nay on this shooting technique... - Page 1

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Yay or Nay on this shooting technique... (Page 1 of 2)

Posted: 11/21/2013 7:19:01 PM EDT

Our training staff has been pushing this shooting technique for a year or so. I find it uncomfortable and retarded frankly. Who comes up with this crap? Looks to me that you are going to block you sights at some point...

Posted: 11/21/2013 7:40:06 PM EDT

[#1]

Nay for me

Posted: 11/21/2013 7:56:55 PM EDT

[#2]

Pretty sure this has been beaten to death.

It seems to work for some, but it's not for me.

Posted: 11/21/2013 8:03:12 PM EDT

[#3]

Tried it once. Hated it. Very uncomfortable for me. And that was the last time I watched a Magpul Dynamics video.

Posted: 11/21/2013 8:07:05 PM EDT

[#4]

Tier -One.

(I shoot like that and it rocks.)

Posted: 11/21/2013 8:18:57 PM EDT

[#5]

Some of us have been shooting long before Costa was putting poop in water to please mom and got the job done.

Doesn't work for me and I used to shoot competition and I probably shoot just as well. Plus, I've shot on a range where the targets shoot back, too.

Whatever works for you and has you shooting well.

Posted: 11/21/2013 9:02:52 PM EDT

[#6]

I gotta be honest, when I first opened this thread, I thought for sure you were making fun of the guy in the background on his knees and elbowsI, lol.

Posted: 11/21/2013 9:07:24 PM EDT

[#7]

If it works for you, run with it. If it doesn't, ditch it.

Posted: 11/21/2013 9:14:06 PM EDT

[#8]

Doesn't work for me. I'll stick with what works. If others want to copy the cool kid, they can have it.

Posted: 11/21/2013 9:30:34 PM EDT

[#9]

I'm not a fan.

Posted: 11/21/2013 10:20:58 PM EDT

[#10]

I've tried it, got good at it, and like it for what it is.

The VAST majority of people I talk to;

Never tried it.

Don't like it due to who popularized it.

Tried it and gave up quickly.

Never took the time to get good at it.

It works well if you find the sweet spot, which is very limited. But in that niche, it works VERY well.

Posted: 11/21/2013 11:48:42 PM EDT

[#11]

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Who comes up with this crap?

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It's been in use since the Vietnam era (if not earlier) and works very well for rapid target transitions and muzzle control during fast semi or auto fire.

Posted: 11/21/2013 11:49:14 PM EDT

[#12]

There is no doubt it does a good job of controlling the recoil impulse and "gets the most" of the NSR.

But it strikes me as a "specialized" technique and doesn't fit my civilian context.

Posted: 11/22/2013 2:14:46 AM EDT

[#13]

Yay, it works.

Posted: 11/22/2013 9:22:29 AM EDT

[#14]

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It's been in use since the Vietnam era (if not earlier) and works very well for rapid target transitions and muzzle control during fast semi or auto fire.

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Quoted:
Who comes up with this crap?

It's been in use since the Vietnam era (if not earlier) and works very well for rapid target transitions and muzzle control during fast semi or auto fire.

WWII

Posted: 11/22/2013 10:59:10 AM EDT

[#15]

I would not call it a shooting technique, I would say it probably would be something that just happens during carry b/c you are carrying your rifle down at a low-ready. But I would not carry like that if I were actively engaging threats.

Posted: 11/22/2013 11:21:02 PM EDT

[#16]

It's been around for decades, as mentioned before. The stretched out arm allows better recoil management and better control of the weapon when rapidly transitioning between targets with the entire body. SOF has been teaching it for the last 15-20 years, with competition & 3 gun shooters the last 10 , and Costabees the last 5 years or so. It does take some work to utilize and most people give up on it, despite shooting faster and more efficiently (proven on timed drills) because they are resistant to change or lazy. Those who have stuck with it are pushing themselves faster and more efficiently than ever before.

Posted: 11/23/2013 12:21:42 AM EDT

[#17]

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Quoted:

It's been in use since the Vietnam era (if not earlier) and works very well for rapid target transitions and muzzle control during fast semi or auto fire.

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Quoted:
Who comes up with this crap?

It's been in use since the Vietnam era (if not earlier) and works very well for rapid target transitions and muzzle control during fast semi or auto fire.

I was first shown that technique 20 years ago.

The basic principle is sound, although I do think some go overboard and exaggerate certain aspects of it.

Posted: 11/23/2013 8:26:06 AM EDT

[#18]

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I was first shown that technique 20 years ago.

The basic principle is sound, although I do think some go overboard and exaggerate certain aspects of it.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Who comes up with this crap?

It's been in use since the Vietnam era (if not earlier) and works very well for rapid target transitions and muzzle control during fast semi or auto fire.

I was first shown that technique 20 years ago.

The basic principle is sound, although I do think some go overboard and exaggerate certain aspects of it.

This, its a solid basic principle, but you should see the things I see sometimes....

Posted: 11/23/2013 12:13:55 PM EDT

[#19]

Thats actually me in the Pic shooting, so I'll throw in my two cents.

It works very well up close ( 1-25 yards), so well in fact I can run a .308 faster utilizing this technique than I can a 5.56 gun doing either a magwell grip of a broom handle grip on a vert grip, if you are trying to put multiple shots on a small target in quick succession and want to mitigate muzzle rise as much as possible.

It requires greater physical strength thatn most other techniques, because I am both pulling the gun into my shoulder tightly and muscling the business end of the gun down while firing and using all the other proper fundamentals of marksmanship which requires intense concentration.

I also believe lots of people give up on it too quickly due to the fact that like anything it requires time and effort to master. Folks love to hate on Costa but I bet you a months pay, which for me is well over 10000$ that costa would smoke your ass in close range marksmanship. Theres a reason All the for most instructors teach a variation of this technique. I too have shot at people using this and it worked out for me, im typing this message and they aren't.

Posted: 11/23/2013 12:16:54 PM EDT

[#20]

Never shot like that, but sure looks dumb as hell.

Posted: 11/23/2013 2:29:09 PM EDT

[#21]

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Thats actually me in the Pic shooting, so I'll throw in my two cents.

It works very well up close ( 1-25 yards), so well in fact I can run a .308 faster utilizing this technique than I can a 5.56 gun doing either a magwell grip of a broom handle grip on a vert grip, if you are trying to put multiple shots on a small target in quick succession and want to mitigate muzzle rise as much as possible.

It requires greater physical strength thatn most other techniques, because I am both pulling the gun into my shoulder tightly and muscling the business end of the gun down while firing and using all the other proper fundamentals of marksmanship which requires intense concentration.

i also believe lots of people give up on it too quickly due to the fact that liek anything it requires time and effort to master. Folks love to hate on Costa but I bet you a months pay, which for me is well over 10000$ that costa would smoke your ass in close range marksmanship. Theres a reason All the for most instructors teach a variation of this technique. I too have shot at people using this and it worked out for me, im typing this message and they aren't.

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Can't see you being able to keep the gun up at a high ready for very long with a hold like that.

Posted: 11/23/2013 8:57:03 PM EDT

[#22]

You are right, I rarely utilize high ready, whether it's hiking through Western WY on a bear Hunt with Kyle Lamb, trooping around the Hindu Kush with an ODA I am embedded with or shooting a 2 gun competition, I use low ready until I am ready to shoot. If you are holding the gun up all the time you are just fatiguing yourself, is that your only bitch about the position?

Some have said it looks stupid, wasn't aware looking good was the order of the day in a gun fight, if it looks stupid and allows you to kill the bad guy and make it home, is it stupid? Probably not.

I suggest you give it a shot. Try utilizing this position for the next 3 months in order to figure out all the mechanics. If not then use what you want.

If you'd like to see videos of me utilizing this technique YouTube atacorion and see.

Posted: 11/23/2013 9:24:32 PM EDT

[#23]

I love you sometimes Sam, i gave up debating this with expurts

Posted: 11/23/2013 10:45:35 PM EDT

[#24]

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I love you sometimes Sam, i gave up debating this with expurts

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No kidding...

I'd love to see how these expurts grip thier pistols...

Posted: 11/23/2013 10:56:15 PM EDT

[#25]

Not a huge fan, personally, but then again, my "high speed" and CQ match rifles are SBR's and don't have crazy long rails to grab at the muzzle...

Posted: 11/23/2013 11:52:41 PM EDT

[#26]

Posted: 11/25/2013 1:55:32 PM EDT

[#27]

I've tried it and just can't get used to it. However, if it works for you, I won't criticize you.

I believe in doing what works, not what's "right" or what "looks good". Everyone is different and finds different things that work for them.

I have no problem shooting fast and accurately with the pistol grip grasped with a typical grip. However, if you like this method....use it.

I'll try any new technique. However, I'm not changing my current technique in order to look cool. I'll change if it's better FOR ME. The thumb forward grip doesn't work for me...so I don't use it. But I won't say that you or anyone else is wrong for using it. It does work...just not for me.

Posted: 11/25/2013 10:11:18 PM EDT

[#28]

Far be it from me to attack anyone's religion, but I don't go to that church.

Posted: 11/29/2013 4:09:25 PM EDT

[#29]

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Thats actually me in the Pic shooting, so I'll throw in my two cents.

It works very well up close ( 1-25 yards), so well in fact I can run a .308 faster utilizing this technique than I can a 5.56 gun doing either a magwell grip of a broom handle grip on a vert grip, if you are trying to put multiple shots on a small target in quick succession and want to mitigate muzzle rise as much as possible.

Actually... I found the technique useful for long range standing unsupported shooting as well. First tried it at MagPul's SPR/DMR course.

It requires greater physical strength thatn most other techniques, because I am both pulling the gun into my shoulder tightly and muscling the business end of the gun down while firing and using all the other proper fundamentals of marksmanship which requires intense concentration.

While it felt awkward at first, this has been my experience too. Unfortunately all my carbines have carbine length rails so I can't get max extension like others can.

i also believe lots of people give up on it too quickly due to the fact that liek anything it requires time and effort to master. Folks love to hate on Costa but I bet you a months pay, which for me is well over 10000$ that costa would smoke your ass in close range marksmanship. Theres a reason All the for most instructors teach a variation of this technique. I too have shot at people using this and it worked out for me, im typing this message and they aren't.

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Use what works for you... I say try everything once, discount nothing automatically.

Posted: 11/29/2013 4:27:33 PM EDT

[#30]

All it is essentially, is shooting a rifle in a similar way to shooting a handgun in the isosceles stance. The support arm is out at the same position for both, with the rifle the shooting arm is back on the rifle's grip.

Posted: 12/1/2013 11:11:48 AM EDT

[#31]

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All it is essentially, is shooting a rifle in a similar way to shooting a handgun in the isosceles stance. The support arm is out at the same position for both, with the rifle the shooting arm is back on the rifle's grip.

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This. It's funny how people react to seeing the fundamentals in action.

Posted: 12/2/2013 9:31:28 PM EDT

[#32]

to far forward....don't like it...

Posted: 12/3/2013 10:49:02 AM EDT

[#33]

Quote History

Quoted:

It works very well up close ( 1-25 yards), so well in fact I can run a .308 faster utilizing this technique than I can a 5.56 gun doing either a magwell grip of a broom handle grip on a vert grip, if you are trying to put multiple shots on a small target in quick succession and want to mitigate muzzle rise as much as possible.

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Quoted:

It works very well up close ( 1-25 yards), so well in fact I can run a .308 faster utilizing this technique than I can a 5.56 gun doing either a magwell grip of a broom handle grip on a vert grip, if you are trying to put multiple shots on a small target in quick succession and want to mitigate muzzle rise as much as possible.

Quoted:
I love you sometimes Sam, i gave up debating this with expurts

Quoted:
There is no doubt it does a good job of controlling the recoil impulse and "gets the most" out of the NSR.

But it strikes me as a "specialized" technique and doesn't fit my civilian context.

As I understand it, this is a very good technique for shooting a NSR.

However, extreme care should be exercised when applying a NSR in the civilian context. The details escape me but IIRC we had a case here in PA where two men got into a confrontation at a party at a residence. The victim did the prudent thing and left the premises. The aggressor got into his vehicle and followed the victim home. Upon arrival, the aggressor drew a HG, a H2H struggle ensued, the victim wrested control of the HG and shot the aggressor 4 (or maybe 5) times.

The victim was charged with either 2nd or 3rd degree murder or voluntary manslaughter. Victim was convicted of the charges in a jury trial. In the opinion of the jury, the victim became the aggressor by firing multiple times. I can't recall the particulars or if the defendant had any expert testimony regarding the value of an NSR. But regardless, and in spite of expert testimony, a "jury of our peers" may not be "dialed in" or "switched on" when it comes to the use of deadly force in the form of an NSR.

The ROE for the military do not translate well to the civilian world.

Posted: 12/3/2013 2:07:38 PM EDT

[#34]

Ive been trying this method and I am really starting to like it. It took a little while to get used to it but I definitely feel like I am able to control the muzzle better. I think if my rail was slightly longer, the position would feel more natural for me. Im 6'3 with long arms, using a 9" rail.

Posted: 12/4/2013 7:07:44 AM EDT

[#35]

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As I understand it, this is a very good technique for shooting a NSR.

However, extreme care should be exercised when applying a NSR in the civilian context. The details escape me but IIRC we had a case here in PA where two men got into a confrontation at a party at a residence. The victim did the prudent thing and left the premises. The aggressor got into his vehicle and followed the victim home. Upon arrival, the aggressor drew a HG, a H2H struggle ensued, the victim wrested control of the HG and shot the aggressor 4 (or maybe 5) times.

The victim was charged with either 2nd or 3rd degree murder or voluntary manslaughter. Victim was convicted of the charges in a jury trial. In the opinion of the jury, the victim became the aggressor by firing multiple times. I can't recall the particulars or if the defendant had any expert testimony regarding the value of an NSR. But regardless, and in spite of expert testimony, a "jury of our peers" may not be "dialed in" or "switched on" when it comes to the use of deadly force in the form of an NSR.

The ROE for the military do not translate well to the civilian world.

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Quoted:

Quoted:

It works very well up close ( 1-25 yards), so well in fact I can run a .308 faster utilizing this technique than I can a 5.56 gun doing either a magwell grip of a broom handle grip on a vert grip, if you are trying to put multiple shots on a small target in quick succession and want to mitigate muzzle rise as much as possible.

Quoted:
I love you sometimes Sam, i gave up debating this with expurts

Quoted:
There is no doubt it does a good job of controlling the recoil impulse and "gets the most" out of the NSR.

But it strikes me as a "specialized" technique and doesn't fit my civilian context.

As I understand it, this is a very good technique for shooting a NSR.

However, extreme care should be exercised when applying a NSR in the civilian context. The details escape me but IIRC we had a case here in PA where two men got into a confrontation at a party at a residence. The victim did the prudent thing and left the premises. The aggressor got into his vehicle and followed the victim home. Upon arrival, the aggressor drew a HG, a H2H struggle ensued, the victim wrested control of the HG and shot the aggressor 4 (or maybe 5) times.

The victim was charged with either 2nd or 3rd degree murder or voluntary manslaughter. Victim was convicted of the charges in a jury trial. In the opinion of the jury, the victim became the aggressor by firing multiple times. I can't recall the particulars or if the defendant had any expert testimony regarding the value of an NSR. But regardless, and in spite of expert testimony, a "jury of our peers" may not be "dialed in" or "switched on" when it comes to the use of deadly force in the form of an NSR.

The ROE for the military do not translate well to the civilian world.

out of

Deadly force is deadly force where I live. That being said I carry a rifle in a combat zone when I carry a rifle. We are trained to shoot to end the threat, if you want to shoot reevaluate shoot reevaluate ect over the course of a few sec giving the bad guy more time to NSR your ass go ahead.
Keeping in mind your target and it's foreground and background I am shooting to end the threat by putting fire on the threat with as much speed and precision as I can and that all depends on the range the threat is.

I question your method and mindset. I can also site examples of folks stateside needing large volumes of fire on a target to neutralize the threat so we can go back and fourth on this all day.

Posted: 12/4/2013 7:50:49 AM EDT

[#36]

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I question your method and mindset.

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I question your method and mindset.

There is nothing remiss about my methods or mindset. I'm not saying the resolution of that case was right or fair but like it or not, judges and juries will pass judgment on our actions.

I can also site examples of folks stateside needing large volumes of fire on a target to neutralize the threat so we can go back and fourth on this all day.

There is the key word. Apparently in the case I cited the jury thought otherwise.

I'm not suggesting anyone should forego the NSR and I do practice them. I just don't use the C-Clamp. This is a discussion forum. All I stated was to exercise care and perhaps some forethought about potential legal repercussions.

Posted: 12/12/2013 5:13:13 PM EDT

[#37]

I believe you should try it out, and see if it works for you. Be fair though, and actually practice with it a while before deciding either way.

Years ago, I had one officer who shot like crap using "proper" technique. She would barely qualify one time out of three attempts. I found out she was cross eye dominant, and was more comfortable with the "wrong" leg to the rear. I told her to shoot using whatever position felt most natural. She looked funny as hell shooting that way, but qualified every time....80% was a passing score, and by letting her do what came naturally, she ended up usually shooting in the high 80% range...go figure.

Some people's bodies just don't fit the "traditional", or "normal" technique, so I think the smart thing to do is try other techniques. But shooting 10 rounds and saying "It won't work for me" isn't nearly as reasonable as firing a couple hundred rounds that way before trying to make your decision.

Posted: 12/13/2013 5:15:21 PM EDT

[#38]

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Never shot like that, but sure looks dumb as hell.

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and that makes you an expert with a HIGHLY valued opinion.

I didn't realize the main reason for shooting was to look cool. I've been going about this whole gun thing wrong then.

As MANY others have said, try it and if you like and/or works for you, keep it until something better comes along. If you don't like it then don't utilize it.

Even though we have similar body styles not every human must follow the same technique. A truly good instructor will provide his/her students with as many options as possible and coach the student to what fits best for their shooting style.

Another example: Are there a few extra fat rolls or chesticles blocking the buttstock from being in the "nominal" shoulder position? Are you going to then tell that overweight individual to stop shooting because he "sure looks dumb as hell" with where he/she is then adapting his/her stock placement?

To judge a shooting technique because it "sure looks dumb as hell" says a lot about priorities.

Posted: 12/17/2013 2:17:32 PM EDT

[#39]

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I love you sometimes Sam, i gave up debating this with expurts

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same here..I get knocked all the time for using a similar stance and I gave up explaining it.

Posted: 12/17/2013 11:30:33 PM EDT

[#40]

Aacorion - Do you not find that particular grip counter productive when moving between platforms?

As an example, if you tried that (full extension of left arm) with a Mk18, you're going to end up with bad times. Skin is a very effective heatsink for suppressors I find.

My personal modus operandi is to place a handstop at the same point as the end of the hand-guard on the shortest rifle I will be given/use, which gives me a repeatable position that is re-inforced by training and use.

The costa style grip doesnt allow for that, so do you not find it limiting moving between guns?

Posted: 12/19/2013 2:21:41 PM EDT

[#41]

No I do not.

Posted: 1/2/2014 8:43:14 PM EDT

[#42]

"Suum cuique" (to each his own). I use this technique and being 6'4", it is way more comfortable for me to have an elongated forward grip. It allows me to have better weapon manipulation at higher speeds and creates leverage for recoil management (same principle as using a breaker bar on a rusty bolt). I do agree that it is awkward at first, but I have liked it more and more as time has gone on.

Posted: 1/5/2014 1:33:15 PM EDT

[#43]

Yay. For me it clearly helps to control muzzle rise and to quickly transition to other targets.

Posted: 1/6/2014 3:46:14 PM EDT

[#44]

I use it. I used to use the way I was taught in the marines. Palm facing up under the hand guards. Then I went through a mag well grip stage. I finally settled on the extended hand on top of the hand guard after watching a magpul dvd. Iv'e spent countless time on the range practicing this method, and recorded myself shooting for later review. It works for me and makes me a more steady, faster and accurate shooter. I know of people who say they don't like it simply because its so popular now. They think if they use it then their a magpul fan boy. and want to be different. Thats fine. Not all people are the same and I personally will swear by this method.

Posted: 1/6/2014 3:51:27 PM EDT

[#45]

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Doesn't work for me. I'll stick with what works. If others want to copy the cool kid, they can have it.

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And what if the kid who happens to be cool gets it right? Should I not adapt to a new method simply because a "cool kid" does it? I don't care who I learn from, could be a homeless man, a 14 year old air softer or a magpul dynamics instructor. If it works for me Im using it with out worry about being called a fan boy or anything else.

Posted: 1/6/2014 3:54:17 PM EDT

[#46]

cue the pic of stretch armstrong costa.

fwiw I use it but my support arm isn't straight out, it's bent at the elbow slightly

Posted: 1/6/2014 4:40:47 PM EDT

[#47]

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And what if the kid who happens to be cool gets it right? Should I not adapt to a new method simply because a "cool kid" does it? I don't care who I learn from, could be a homeless man, a 14 year old air softer or a magpul dynamics instructor. If it works for me Im using it with out worry about being called a fan boy or anything else.

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If you LIKE your grip, you can KEEP your grip.

Really, it doesn't add anything for me.

Posted: 1/6/2014 6:56:52 PM EDT

[#48]

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If you LIKE your grip, you can KEEP your grip.

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Quoted:

And what if the kid who happens to be cool gets it right? Should I not adapt to a new method simply because a "cool kid" does it? I don't care who I learn from, could be a homeless man, a 14 year old air softer or a magpul dynamics instructor. If it works for me Im using it with out worry about being called a fan boy or anything else.

If you LIKE your grip, you can KEEP your grip.

Nice

Posted: 2/12/2014 9:22:07 AM EDT

[#49]

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If you LIKE your grip, you can KEEP your grip.

Really, it doesn't add anything for me.

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Quoted:

And what if the kid who happens to be cool gets it right? Should I not adapt to a new method simply because a "cool kid" does it? I don't care who I learn from, could be a homeless man, a 14 year old air softer or a magpul dynamics instructor. If it works for me Im using it with out worry about being called a fan boy or anything else.

If you LIKE your grip, you can KEEP your grip.

Really, it doesn't add anything for me.