Anyone regularly doing this with a buddy or group? Since the cell towers went down, I thought about doing this with a buddy in another state. We are running a mixture of Winlink packet, VaraFM, VaraHF, WoAD, as well as, different modes of communications. We list our setups, which vary from antenna, radio, watts, type of program used at the top of each email. Along with power changes in radio, we can try to extend our antennas reach by trying to connect to different stations. Then we make up stories of whatever happened on patrol, what disaster happened, or problem solving we are currently working through. We talk about our supplies, power situation and any other situations that we may need help with.

We have been weaving real life in with made up scenarios that will make the other think about what they made need in that type of situation. For example, I recently sold my NV setup. He knows this, so he talks about his NV and how handy it has been in this type of situation. So far he is buying a tri-fuel kit for his genny, a N9TAX roll up jpole antenna, etc... He came up with the idea of using the wilderness protocol to check on messages. Great, so every 3hrs we check our radios during the day time. We both are buying the Mobilinkd tnc4, which finally are available again, to try with our HT's, and to run APRS on the IC705.

I have a Kenwood TM-D710GA that has full access to TNC. So the Kenwood can beacon a position, be used as a modem to send Winlink messages, text to cell via SMS, etc... He does not have one. So when I use it, I let him know in the equipment used header. Example, I was on patrol, wasn't at home so didn't have access to computer, but had my Kenwood. I could send a text to check if he had cell signal via APRS SMS on the Kenwood 710GA. He can see I have different radios being used, and can still communicate. It's been productive and a lot of fun to use the gear in multiple ways.

Back to the dark ages
Raise middle finger and laugh…..

A few years ago there were some of us on this board that did something of the sort.  We had a "Winlink Friday" (if I remember the day correctly) where we would send each other emails via VARA HF P2P on the ARFCOM digital guard freq, usually on 20m.  We would leave our rigs up in P2P mode for most of the day and send whenever we got a chance.

It worked pretty well, was very reliable between different regions of the country, but it sorta petered out after a while.

Might be fun for someone to revive that for the newer folks.

Texas does Winlink Wednesday, where during the day you are to send a message to a station. Sometimes it's a radiogram that the person does direct delivery with through the NTS local node.

ARES and RACES will do periodic drills to ensure readiness. They can be voice nets, Winlink P2P, or using remote nodes. And of course Field Day every year is meant to be a test of emergency preparedness, which is why they give extra points for operating completely off of traditional AC.

yeah, a little bit... group is "office of emergency management"


most of the stuff I service and utilize is a little more than most hams have.  "Packet?  At 1200 baud?  Neat, but i'd rather use 802.11 at megs/sec.  Not only do we have text, but also email, video streaming, IP phones, and the ability to restore data links to repeaters and zone controllers."


got tools and skills that allow me to get to sites quicker and easier than a lot of other techs have.




built PTP/PTMP networks, usually for planned events, to support additional talk paths for public safety and provide communications for event staff.  This microwave link allowed us to stream video and race timing back to event organizers/staff, as well as provide IP phones at some sites for racers to call for pickups (no cell coverage in this area).  


Public safety networks are pretty resilient, and those teams are well organized for "prepper shtf fantasy scenarios".  Your cellphone might not work, your baofeng may not hit the ham repeaters anymore, but legitimate public safety infrastructure will probably be fine.  Microwave, fiber, leased-lines, and priority service from technicians...


Hams want to be part of the event, have visibility; passing messages and more "hands-on" work.  Comm techs just want to do their job, and if you don't see or notice the work we do and "things just work the way we expect", then we've done our job well.  


Gear whoring is cute, but without training to use what you have effectively, even the best gear won't help.

Wow, sounds like a great job, thanks for the photos. But that's not really what I am talking about, is it? I am talking about us commoners trying to communicate with radios we would typically buy to our friends or loved ones. You win the d!ck measuring contest though, congrats.

I guess that's the point that I'm trying to make... "commoners" don't have $Millions/year budgets to set up and maintain equipment that meets the wants and desires of arfcom preppers.  

ARES/RACES/CAP is probably the closest a "commoner" can get to that stuff without going all-in to it as a career.  
Amateur is great, and gets your foot in the door for a lot more than frs/gmrs/murs toys, but the problem with hams in a large-scale event is the lack of coordination.  One group's got HF capabilities, another's got VHF packet, another's got winlink, another's heavy with APRS... maybe there's a prepper group with a bunch of 900MHz stuff... A COML to organize and lead those people, stage/deploy equipment and people to run that equipment, just isn't realistic for most amateur groups when "shtf".

Saw that scenario in 9/11, Columbine, Katrina.  Those events really kicked off FEMA and states to standardize their radio systems so everyone can talk to each other.  Mutual aid channels, federal interop channels, patching/bridging capabilities... in addition to federal training on how incident management works and chain of command.  

Even something as simple as setting up a single-site repeater (figuring $10k for decent equipment - repeater itself, duplexer, power supplies, feedline, antenna, misc mounting/protection/grounding hardware) is out of reach for most small groups.  This doesn't consider subscriber units, license/power/site/tower expenses, or ongoing maintenance.

https://dhsem.colorado.gov/sites/dhsem/files/documents/Public%20Safety%20Communications%20Needs%20Assessment%20and%20Business%20Plan%20Execurive%20Summary.pdf

The government is the emergency we are preparing for. Lol.

I get what you're saying but a $150 radio running off a battery with an antenna in the attic can do quite a bit for you when shit hits the fan.  I really don't need to run a video call with my buddy across town.  I just need to communicate basic info.

OP - I used to run a net for like minded folks in my community and also checked into nets in other communities who were doing the same.  I'm in the process of doing the same in the community I now call home.

That is the best way to do it. Just have everyone turn on their radios at a certain time on a certain day for a net check in. Like we do on Tuesdays.

Attended a neighborhood meeting last week, set up an emergency notification net on the phone.  

Next week I'll be attending a first part of three on establishing a local community communication network with hand held radios.

Last year fires were so close that phone communication was disabled, so a lot of people were in the dark.  Horses and stock had to be moved.  This is aimed at providing a last ditch communication network if primary communication is down.

I'm fairly rural.

I get what you are saying, and I appreciate all your input. But, we are talking apples and oranges here. We aren't looking for a large scale mass hamcation event where everyone licks the Cheeto dust off their fingers. A small group, 2 guys or 1 guy, gathering intel that might be useful and working on a way to communicate to someone else, that's it. Something as simple as shortwave listening, and whatever means you can get a signal out to someone else. What you are describing is not anything like what I am asking about, but more likely who we would be talking about.

You can try ARES or RACES in your area. It's gonna be hit or miss though.

Just finding a group of like minded folks would be easiest. Even if it's just a boring simplex net. You'll have an idea of what you can and can't do without infrastructure.

Also bear in that triangulation of signals is easy to do. Someone who is good can find you fairly quick. My fastest was about 10 mins. A group of experienced folks each running the various tools of the game could have it done pretty fast.

That's such a bunch of horsesh!t, lol. Someone always chimes in with that . Every prepper in the US will the thumbing his boofwang trying to be heard. You won't be triangulating nothing, and would be the last thing on your mind in that situation. But let's entertain that for a minute using ham protocol using the least amount of power to get the job done. Low power, directional antenna, portable, maybe using digital or morse at .2 watts. Those people would be to busy taking care of their own.

I agree with ARES or RACES tho, probably not my type or fun to hang around.

Interesting thread and already some decent info.

Well you're right, I won't be doing anything. But the folks who you don't want to hear you might be is my point.

You seem like a pain in the ass honestly. Good luck!

I'd like to see amateur LTE on the 70cm (and 23cm) ATV channels. Or something similar for high-speed data links in 5~6MHz bandwidth. With power and gain antennas you could cover some distance. In place of an ATV repeater you could have a pretty large coverage footprint. It's something that amateurs could do that is hard to do outside the amateur service, if equipment was available to do it.

I actually fiddled with the idea of running GSM on the 900 amateur band, as the European GSM band is in that range... but there are no Euro GSM channels that have both TX and RX within the 902-928 range.

What I'd really like to see is an open MANET protocol with say two different bandwidths/data rates that could support messaging services and low rate data/voice on the narrow channels, and higher speed data/video/multiple voice channels on the wider bandwidth channels. Repurpose the 10 100khz radio control channels on the 6m band, a single chunk on 2m, and wide bandwidth channels on 70cm and 1.2GHz (and 900 if you're away from noise sources). Maybe even gateway channels for SMS-ish messaging to HF.

It's all in good fun to get us talking brochacho.

If not this a common freq to rag chew on. Years ago when I was on the 2M simplex daily, i always knew people were listening so I could always get someone to pass a message.  Now days on HF in the evening, same thing.  

The closest you're going to get for amateur use is the IC-905 in a commercial product.

Great ideas guys.

Actually over the years we've done a couple of ecomm rills here.

We had a guy in NH and a guy in HI.

The guy in NH sent out the challenge and the guy in HI wasn't allowed to give the password out until he got the challenge.

The challenge IIRC was 'Orange banana' the password was'tropical fruit'. It made the ROUND TRIP in under 2 minutes being relayed by 2 or 3 stateside hams to ssomeone that got it to HI.

After that every single arfham had both the challenge and the password inside of about 10 and then a bunch of us babbled around trying to find someone that missed it.

Under minutes round trip NH>HI and back and everyone getting the word in under 10 ain't bad.

Oh, I agree. I think it is a good idea to learn js8 call and olivia as well. They are a good low power way to actually communicate messages. The more tricks in your hat, the more rabbits you can pull out.

I remember that drill!
I have a few friends locally and we mostly aprs. We have 3 digi's up so we can walk around with the HT's and have it work.
You can store and forward messages now on APRS, just fyi, that was just added.
We also use winlink and have a p2p freq picked out for when neccesary.
Lots of ways to do it, just need a few like minded individuals with similar equipment.

Shortlly afterwards Gyprat (IIRC) organized a drill and intentionally left the mode vague and we swapped emails predicting the results. We both predicted chaos and were not disappointed.

As predicted the digital guys went straight to either PSK 31 or Olivia, the CW guys headed straight for their keys and the SSB guys went straight for their microphones and the whole thing turned into the Tower of Babel with nobody able to really contact anyone.

Afterwards during the following debriefing it was agreed (grudgingly by a couple of guys) that Ecomm should stay SSB because if it's simplicity. Virtually EVERY commercially made ham rig comes with a mic and it's the simplest way to run. Keep it simple.

Of course a couple guys were quick to point out that digital communications and CW is generally able to pick up weak signals but the trade-off is simplicity and ease of operation. You pick up the mic, you talk, you put mic down. No computers, no having to learn code.

Voice is great for EMCOMM as, you correctly state, every rig has a microphone and the ability to do voice without anything more than a power source and antenna.

However there's a reason why virtually every EMCOMM group out there -- RACES, ARES, SATERN, MARS, Rapid Response, etc. -- uses digital modes. In the time it can take for you to read off one ICS form, without having to check readback, over voice, I can send a dozen with no errors via Winlink or a file drop using tools like WinDRM, or direct chatting with JS8Call or VarAC. Again, not to state that voice isn't needed, it's very critical, but digital modes have a huge part in the world of EMCOMM and they should absolutely be utilized, even with a KISS methodology.

Unfortunately this is exacerbated by many hams not being very technical and reluctant to embrace technology, or requiring significant handholding due to an unwillingness to learn new technology. Thankfully it is starting to be a self-correcting problem, aided by some technology getting simpler to use.

Digital has the advantage of attended operation (in an Emergency).  If you are busy filling sandbags, digging in your ditch, or sleeping your radio can be doing retries and make your confirmed message delivery or receive a message.  Phone can't discriminate from noise on the channel or a message to you that should wake you up.

Maybe we need 5 tone signaling included on HF radios for selective calling.

Understanding and being able to use JS8Call, Winlink I think are critical to emergency and need to be practiced often. I tried to join the digital net this past Wednesday and I had FLrig and FLdigi working with Olivia a few hours before with my IC-705. When it came for the net, no signal, no ALC, , no decode. FLdigi was set correctly on my audio. Now granted, I haven't had a lot of time to play with FLdigi and FLrig, as I uninstalled it a few years ago. I didn't care for it back then, and still don't. I have used plenty of digital modes, WSJTX, Winlink, JS8. In fact, after rebooting my radio and computer a couple of times I tried Olivia again and no signal. I could decode a bit of the transmissions. I switched my radio to go to JS8Call and it worked perfectly. Voice is simple, but you do need power, more than QRP power sometimes. Digital modes can work on QRP without any real difficulty at all.

I think it's important to try and use what works best for you. But if you are trying to coordinate with a larger group, they most likely won't have the same skillset. You will have to fall back to what is the simplest form of communication as @Hayashi_Killian talked about. Although, certainly not the most efficient way to carry a signal, it sounds like the most efficient way to communicate with mixed skillset groups.

I will start another thread on this, I am interested in this.

HF maritime DSC is a thing, but I've not seen it used on ham radio.

Look up ALE, or Automatic Link Establishment.

I had a guy show me how this worked on a couple Motorola radios.  Pretty freaking slick!

It's used by GOV/MIL systems, but is also available on amateur bands. There's WinALE and ION to do 2G/ALE communications.

There are some different systems for selective calling that are in use... 2 tone paging is very common in the US in the LMR world. 5 tone is not all that common in the US but is an open standard, and it's just a fast sequence of individual tones so should work well on HF, it's also not obnoxious to listen to. The tones range from 459 to 2292 Hz so would all fit in an SSB audio passband.

Upon reflection though... SSB tuning would have to be exact to get the tones right.   Hmmmm....

Here's some samples:
https://www.sigidwiki.com/wiki/EIA
https://icomuk.co.uk/What-is-5-Tone-Signaling/4054/681/

DTMF uses two tones at the same time which might be a little more difficult on SSB.  MDC1200 as is used on the LMR world has a ton of features but is obnoxious for people to listen to on a voice channel. I'm not sure what the existing marine DSC uses. Something FSK based might work better. Or add on to the protocol to begin with the same tone so that the decoder has a reference frequency.

Yes, I read about this in the Army radio manual.  I started doing some testing with fldigi with the builtin ARQ modem.  You can setup a port and then control fldigi with NodeJS scripts, python or other.  I defined some messages, like 'connect', 'acknowledge', 'message' with retries.  Getting a full ALE setup working wouldn't take too much effort.  I would add a CRC and digital signature capability to prevent message forgery.  I had setup two laptops talking fldigi and plain audio via the mic/speakers, it was amusing watching them chirp back and forth.  




All this is easier with digital.  Tagging message with to/from, error detection, retries, auto acknowledge, and reading the message at the receiver to decided whether to ignore, alarm or save for later.

This.

1. I am a simple person.
2. I (we?) have simple equipment
3. We are trying to do simple things.

In my case being in Pittsburgh one thing I need is to be able to communicate with OH, IL and IN because that's where our weather comes from.

As for digi? While it has a use, my argument is that it is too complex in that it needs a comupter (more electricity) and not everyone works digital to begin with.

Actually the PRC 320 would be a good ecomm rig because I can easily keep it up and running with either the hand generator or a solar panel.

Winlink or JS8 is a great way to communicate weak signal. SSB does take more power, better propagation to be effective at the same distance. I recently watched a great video on JS8Call. It was very informative.

The problem with all this mid-to-long range (>50 miles) emcomm talk is that it is always just a bunch of handwaving. Consider the various real-world use cases:

1. Formal EMCOMM (MARS, ARES, whatever).

- That's not what we are really talking about here, right? Moving on...

2. Casual "emcomm" during SHTF with a "grid down" beaten zone (e.g. hurricane, tornado, earthquake, something geographically limited).

- In this case it just doesn't matter what mode you use. Do what you can and with whatever floats your boat. Because whether it's JS8Call, plain old SSB phone, CW, whatever, you are just playing the ham radio hobby game of "The airwaves are like a box of chocolates, you never know what you are going to get." But you will get something, somebody, somewhere, and with any luck you can get what you want/need out of it. A phone call to a friend/relative/coworker outside the beaten zone. Whatever news reporting might be available. Or perhaps a call to a rescue coordination center (for whatever that might be worth in the situation).

3. Comm's with pre-established significant others during SHTF.

- In this case choosing techniques, procedures, and practice does become all important. Random amateur radio comm's are easy. Repeatable & reliable amateur radio comm's not so much. In this case choosing the mode of operation becomes an important tradeoff. There's no question the small signal properties and automation of JS8Call can be a huge advantage as long as the additional complexity of having a computer is not too much of a burden. Similarly, learning CW could be invaluable.

The reality remains that for SHTF whereby communications infrastructure in orbit and outside the beaten zone remain operational, SATCOM messaging devices reign supreme for comm's beyond 50 miles. If one is serious about comm's prepping for SHTF then a satellite text messaging device and service plan is a must-have for oneself.

Of course all this may become completely moot once all the major cellular providers start offering direct-to-space cellular services. Although it begs the question about messaging capacity per satellite spot beam. In which case the use cases cease to be SHTF and are probably limited only to TEOTWAWKI (no grid, no sat's, etc.).

There are only a couple of options for mil standard ALE2G that are affordable. Ion2g is a software based solution and there is also a Pactor 4G modem with the ALE license (one of the reasons why I bought one). However it requires a very broadband antenna that doesn't require a tuner to be efficient. I've also read it's not very effective on the amateur bands due to their bandwidth. For effective use it requires a good amount of separation between frequencies.

My thoughts, which are probably mostly wrong because such things are subjective and speculative.

1) The most important thing is to be able to intercept signals, not to transmit them.

2) All of my plans include the simple fact that I will have to remove all visible antennas on my house if things are bad enough.

3) Satcomm systems, including GPS, have tiered servicing built into them, just like cellular, and if something seriously bad happens, expect them to be not available to commoners.

4) It is very difficult to find people you can rely on, willing to stick to a plan.

I recently watched this video from S2 Underground.

I think your item 3 is most significant. It's relatively easy to talk to *somebody* at some random time. It's not so easy to talk to a specific person at a specific time. My wife doesn't have a ham ticket nor does my son (who lives 1500 miles from us). So, communicating with them in real-time is entirely dependent on the cell network. Sure, if this area got hit by a hurricane and power/cell service was out, I could send an e-mail via Winlink to my son's phone telling him we're OK down here. (More than once when I was in PR, I had to send a morning "I'm OK" message to my wife via Winlink. JS8Call has a function now to send short messages via SMS or e-mail that it didn't back then.) Solar flare takes down the grid nation-wide, highly unlikely to be able to send that message.

P.A.C.E planning for comms is pretty tough the closer to 100% reliability you want to get. Even more so when the pathways are limited for whatever reason.

Excellent thoughts. All valid. I tend to have issues with #4. I can't find any reliable people in my area that are reliable or want to practice/drill.

And even if you could, would it matter?

So let's say you got together with some like-minded individuals to develop a "grid-down" comm's plan. And as a group you all practiced and even were quite successful at it. Would these people be any kind of resource during such an event? Would they be any better than making a random contact in the amateur radio way? Say all you wanted was some news on the situation. Nearly anyone could provide that. Say you wanted some sort of help or assistance. As long as you had the right phone numbers/emails to give anyone (because they won't have them) it doesn't matter who that anyone is. And if you used this method to push sitrep's to loved ones and significant others at regular intervals you could receive any replies or inbound messages at the same time as you would stand by while calls and emails were happening on your behalf. And, since it is ham radio, people will be falling all over themselves to help you.

Unless you want/need direct comm's with specific people then "drilling in emcomm" doesn't matter. As long as you are well practiced at normal station operations and your station is designed to weather the kinds of situations you are worried about you will be GTG.

P.S. Again, it's super important to have the right phone numbers and emails for whoever might need to use them. Loved ones, friends and work are easy. It's things like the state, county and local public safety services that you need to write down, because someone calling 911 in Montana when the emergency is in Kentucky is not going to work very well or quickly. Even FEMA numbers might be good to have.

I'd like to just have a group of folks to practice various different things with.  I had joined AMMRON and AMCON in the past, but was not impressed with either really, especially considering you have to pay for both.

OK, I just installed JS8CALL on a laptop and got my TS-590SG setup for digital. Now what?

Message sent

Just made my first JS8 contact in NC

I can hear other AK stations on 20m right now.

Did you get the @xxxxxxx programmed in your list?

Eta; I heard you at a -20db. I had the wrong AK call sign in my head I was looking for. Dont think you can hear me on the other end.

I did, thank you!