I hear you man.  That wisdom in earned not given as a birthday gift is a tough lesson.   I just said to my son Sunday "Ignorance is not usually considered a virtue."

Credit is just a financial tool but what it isn't is a means of affording things.  You can only afford what you can afford.   It requires business discipline to use it correctly.  

I don't think I own a single toy I didn't use credit in one form or another.   Now that said, I can count the ones I actually payments on, on one hand.   For example, when I retired I did so with 400,000 Amex points.   Yes, interest is a killer but what its not is an unknown.   Its not credit is bad.  It's not budgeting is bad.  

I was probably as bad about this as anyone on the board.   Hell when I was young at one time, I was $40,000 in credit card debt and not a damn thing really to show for it.   Talk about a hole to dig out of.  I was Hunter Biden with a credit card.   It didn't take a crystal ball to figure out this was heading for disaster.   Before computers, what it took was sitting down with a pen and paper and budgeting and man did I get down to the nitty gritty.   Talk about one of those head slap feeling pretty damn stupid moments.   This was when the first time I used a CPA.   Its also when I adopted the rule never buy anything on a credit card, you can't pay cash for.  That's not just then but anytime.   Its when credit cards stopped being a crutch and became a tool.

How I got out from under the monkey was I calculated the interest, that was a HOLY COW moment.   I then calculated taking out a home equity loan and impact on my tax burden.   That IRS savings account with no interest became a monthly income.  I took out one of those balloon home equity loans which is basically interest only for so many years then bang drop your socks, you're screwed.   This gave me some latitude on Mr Murphy.  I budgeted how much I would have to pay to avoid the balloon and whenever I paid under, I budgeted to make it up.  That balloon loomed over you like an anvil on a string and that interest like 80lb backpack on my shoulders.   If you see it you feel it.   As my salary increased so did that principle payment.  Took me years but I got the monkey off my back in half the time allotted for the balloon.  Note here too, that salary thing was no accident either.   Stagnant with just annual increases was not getting it.   I worked my tail off, took other positions, and even transfers to other states.   That damn monkey is a hell of a monkey.  

What it taught me besides don't be blind was budgeting and financial discipline.  In the habit then, I did the same thing to my home mortgage I did with the equity balloon.   That anvil hanging over you never goes away.  After debt free comes retirement.  

Pleasent surprises along the way are the "What if" plans you kill.   For example, still in debt, I once had the option plan of if I have to I'll use the IRA to pay off the house upon retirement.   Bad plan, so good to kill that one.  

Tj

Well I was one of those myself which is why I've been a Amex member since 1979.  Back then Amex only option was pay off every month and no interest.  It gave me the ability to rent cars, hotel rooms, and air travel critical to my career without the temptation of "I'll just put this off".   What it did in the process was help me learn the discipline to do that.   Even today I have never signed up for the pay over time option.  

That's how credit works.  When you need it, its hard to get but when you don't you have all the credit in the world.   Now this said other than some event like weather delays, I've never paid a bill late in 50 years.  A deal is a deal and breaking a deal is the same as stealing.   Of course, that comes with a disclaimer that we can't control every aspect of our lives  but even that is very dependent on how far are we willing to go.   People tend to think those of us who have things better than most had it easy and some do but many like me didn't.   I could tell you all horror stories of the things I did to go to school from crappy jobs, going to war, the GI Bill, and pursuing a career that had me living in seven different states.   For those of us not born with the silver spoon, its a life of going the extra mile to succeed and we can if we do.

I am asked from time to time my secret to my success and I tell them "A mattock".   It was $1.25 an hour, 90 + degrees in the sun breaking asphalt with every swing telling myself there's got to be an easier way to make a living.  Instead of "woe is me", its if you got to be there, do your best, be the best, and go the extra mile.  You are either given a job or you earn it.   Its as simple as life is easier if you earn it.   Life is not a checkers game, one move at a time, its a game of chess thinking moves ahead and there's always another thing that needs done.   Its like the Army. If you are the best, you are left alone because they don't want you stop doing what you are doing.  If you are the worse, they don't want you around.  Middle of the road, life rides you like a whipped horse.  Pride is easier to live with than regret.   People lose motivation if whipped like a horse and some folks I think don't want to be anything but a horse.   Nothing wrong with that even being the best, in life's priorities job is way down the list.  I've lost sight of that myself too.   Luck indeed is a factor but planning on luck is like planning your retirement on winning the lotto.   You can learn from everyone, some do's and some don'ts.   Embrace the do's and avoid the don'ts lest the don'ts like a sinking ship drag you down with them.   The goal is not to be the biggest fish in the small pond but the Ocean.  Play the game of chess in life and leave checkers to the horses.  

Tj

A $5K monthly note, holy shit.  

That brings up there's two types of houses.  One is a house when you buy you buy thinking "I may retire here" and then there's "Its purely an investment".   Houses are like buying stock in the stock market.   You don't realize either profit or loss until you sell them.  

My concern in buying right now in any of the "no income tax states" is the blue mass migration.  Due to it being a sellers market, all of our states are currently experiencing a bubble market.  A bubble market is defined these days is when a two income household at average income for that area can not afford a home.   What that means is the bubble may burst and traditional they do.  For us in destination areas that means if the mass migration stops our house values will plummet.  2008 crash it was how many people had bad lending/borrowing practices which artificially inflated housing.  1983, Houston TX, it was the oil industry tanked and the mass migration ended.  2008 its was the 120% of investment value loans with balloons banking on a 20% increase in ten years to break even.  When so much of a market plummets, kind of a threshold, the entire market does.  To Docs point, build vs buy is a major factor.  

I can't even begin to tell you the folks I know who bought too much home by price that they couldn't sell and buy another smaller house without taking a loss and couldn't retire there due to the taxes even with the house paid for.  Their kids have to pay the taxes in hope of them inheriting.  $800,000 or Doc's $5K note, you are right there a 20% increase and its inheritance tax time.  That's how those folks got boxed in.  You need a CPA to figure the whole capital gain tax thing which can be 20% or more.  Hell I've known some who couldn't afford the Utilities.  Another BTDT myself is once you reach a certain income level to maintain it and you are in corporate America, more often than not it may involve relocating.  

There's a ton of shit to think about before we buy.  Unfortunately most people just think about "Can I afford it" and just bank on the market going up.  

Like Doc, I thank God I bought below my means.  As it is, I'm retired now in a four bedroom 2.5 bath brick with an entire floor we only visit once a month.  

Tj

That's what it takes, a plan.   You may have to adjust a couple times but the key thing is to have a plan and not just trust the system, because the system sucks.

Heard a new term out there.  It's "Golden Handcuffs".   It refers to those who bought too much house at the once extremely low mortgage rates and now dare not sell because of the current higher interest rates.  

Tell you a story.  I have a lifelong friend.  He owns a 2 bedroom brick house in a great location.  He raised four kids in that little house.  I use to feel sorry for him.  Now that we're both retired, I'm jealous.  You see one most of us blow is realizing kids grow up and leave the nest.  

I tell folks if I had to do it all over, I would have bought a 2 bedroom with a six car garage.  Another thing we don't talk about in these threads is planning on doing the things we love when we retire.   You see for the wife and I, we'd rather have another fun vehicle than a dozen cruises.  

Tj

I don't think you'll have to worry about that.  People who stay busy in life, do so in retirement, and before long, you'll wonder how everything got done when you were working.  Enough time, comes the realization it never did and never will.

Well guys I just turned 70 and been married this will be 51 years.  I guess you can say I made it and its all downhill from here. Obviously, I can't give you any advice on divorce.  I haven't been there.  I feel I can on marriage and it all started by taking sage advice from my grandfather.  

"Always know son, the woman's always the boss because she has something we want.  There's two kinds of women, a bad one and a good one.  A bad one knows she's the boss and won't let you forget it.  A good one knows she's the boss but makes you think you are. For God's sake, marry a good one."  My Grandfather.  

On business finances.  "If you buy a liquor store, don't ask the wino passed out in an alley how to run it.  Ask the successful guy who owns one."  My grandfather appreciated a good bourbon.  

Am I rich?  Actually yes in the things that truly matter in life and that came late in life with the realization in a hospital almost dead from working myself to death that my family was better off me alive in a cardboard box than well off in a mansion.  Am I accused of being financially rich?  All the time, usually from losers too lazy to work in a pie factory.   Talk about wanting to reach out and slap someone beside their stupid head.   I am however debt free, all the credit in the world a man would want, more toys than a man can use, and enough to well buy about anything I want.  Your wants kind of go down a hell of a lot the older you get.  

I started life literally with the clothes on my back, public school high school degree, a wife I loved and still do, and in debt for a POS Ford Maverick.  I drove that POS for ten years.   I worked my ass off, Army, GI Bill, school full time, work full time, and a determination to succeed that included willingness to take a chance and relocate.  Hell one time fed up with a dead end job, I loaded up a Uhaul and moved 1,500 miles away to a city with more opportunity.  I didn't have a job or for that matter know anyone.   If you knew the crappy jobs I did going to school, it would blow your mind.  I learned in the Army there was two ways to get over in life.  Be the worst at what you do and nobody wants you or be the best at what you do and they leave you alone so you don't stop what you are doing.  Its often harder but way less mental hassle to be the best.  The next one many will think is old fashioned, definitely not in vogue, it's honor.  

Back to my grandfather.  "Son the only thing the government can't tax or take away from you is your word so for God's sake keep it."  A man without honor is doomed to fail and that's typically in every aspect in life.   To paraphrase the real Thomas Jefferson a man with relative morality is like a boat without an anchor.  Eventually nobody wants to be on it.  Keep your word, do what you say, and don't envy anyone for their success in life and success comes naturally.  You won't fail.  In fact, success will seek you out.  We are the exception not the rule.  Be the best.  Always know there's one more thing to do.  Life is a game of chess not checkers. Always think more than one move ahead and alternatives.  

Another lesson the Army taught me.  Cut your hair, shine your shoes, and dress for success and you will succeed.  Had  a lifelong friend back when ties were in vogue tell me, "I will never cut my hair or wear a tie." and I told him "Then you will die with a shirt with your name on it."  Sadly he did too.  A good man but man did his life take a toll on him.  This I can tell you.  We pay for the sins of our youth in our old age.  Runners will have bad knees and lifters bad backs.  Bad eaters, one of my sins, will have intestinal problems.  Drinkers/druggies bad livers, etc. etc.  Getting old sucks.  Yes, for God's sake do that physical shit when you are young and can do it because there's no avoiding getting old no matter what the TV says and you will slow down.  Wear the uniform whatever that is and forget the "I'm cool" for I'm successful.  

Love is a game.  Its a game you play to win or you will fail.  The kiss of death to a relationship is taking them for granted.  More Grandfather advice.  "You can get sex anywhere.  Marry the woman you want to be your child's mother." Not good but true, you do it right, we're all destined to be the Harry Chapin song, "Cats in a cradle".  Just like in a job, if you are neither the best or worst, life will work you to death.  

There are no knights on white horses that are going to swoop into your life and improve your lot.  That's solely on you.  You are only entitled what you paid for and its solely on you if you didn't.  Don't wait on life to take you by the scruff of your neck.  Grap it with both hands and run with it.  Be the guy in the Army as you do push ups till it hurts, you think you are going to die, and the Drill Sargeant calls you names to go "I love it Drill Sargeant, give me more."   Anyone can do what I have done in life.  All it takes is the will.  The next lazy SOB that tells me you are rich is going to get an ear full if not a slap upside the head and "Dumbass".  If he wasn't a POS, he'd be here too.  

Last but not least and it relates to the Liquor store, the old saying "Lay down with dogs, you shouldn't be surprised you have fleas".  You have to abandon those in life that are untrustworthy or they will drag you down with them.   That doesn't mean you don't care for them or won't be happy when you see them.  It's simply what's best for you and yours.  It's a simple formula. Its God, family, country, you, etc. and friends even work is way down the list.  Always remember, when night falls and its time to sleep, its only you and you sleep a lot better if you keep your priorities and most important, your honor.  

Tj