I'm wanting to add a tankless water heater to my preps, does anyone have experience with them or recommendations? I'd also like to add a 12 volt water pump to feed it, from a pond or other water source.

Thanks,
JJ

I guess I always thought of tankless heaters as a convenience not a prep since they don't have a big tank of water.





How are they used as a prep?

Save your money for something else. Like a wood burning stove, that is a tankless water heater that can cook. Or just buy more ammo or food.

LOL It's funny because I've never thought of it like that, even after growing up boiling water on the stove during long power outages.



 

high maintence. what are you going to use for fuel?

as mentioned dont buy one just for preps, buy one to use it now with normal ops.



saying that, tankless are not efficient as the claims  

Thanks for the keen insight and useless lecture on resource allocation. My home and my BOL both have wood burning stoves, and it's a pain in the ass to lug hot water upstairs. I grew up on a 4200 acre ranch, and know how much fun losing the power during a ice storm is. Sorry you didn't have anything useful to add.

So how is it supposed to be a "prep".       You haven't explained yet.

Hot Showers are wonderful things, and having hot water wash down for cleaning game in the shed.

That's about the only purposes it would serve.

Awesome, so instead of getting epic butthurt, why don't you explain how you think a tankless heater is a prep?
Or do you consider  burning up gas for electricity or the unit for the convenience of not having to haul hot water upstairs a prep?



 

4 100 lb and 10 5 lb  propane tanks . I also have a gasifier that runs a old lawn mower engine that might work as a fuel source.

Hot water is a wonderful convenience, no doubt.   Why not a tank water heater?       Tankless ones seem like anti-prep to the uninitiated.      You've got me curious now.    Whats your line of reasoning?

Epic butthurt, that's laughable. Very simply, I want to be able to have hot water wherever I need it, for whatever purpose I choose, you don't have experience with such a device, then stfu.

So then it's a great question for GD...  or the home improvement section.  
 

Primarily mobility, to have it where I need it or want it. My primary purpose now is that I clean game, ducks and deer in the shed 50 yards from the house, there's no hot water there. Additionally, I like that idea of being able to use it for shower purposes and in general have the ability to produce hot pressurized water anywhere. Camping, you name it..

If that's where the mods think it should go then so be it. You don't think hot pressurized water is of value when the worlds not working right, okay, go rigth ahead and hump scalding hot water up those stairs - keep in mind a third degree burn, when shit has hit the fan and medical is hard to come by might just be the end of you or someone you care about.

Ok, for a small inexpensive portable check out the ones at Sportsmansquide.com.

I have seen them used in several locations where they get hardcore use 10-15 times a year at events and they seem to work well.

Tankless page

Thinking about getting one to use out by my shed/pool area for after a dirty day of working outside.

For more portable use check out Zodi showers, I have the one that goes on my camp stove. The water will get very warm and if the water is ice cold you can pre-warm your source by circulating the water. The flow is fair, it works and it is also slow enough that it does not waste a lot of water.

Problem with this type of unit is you cannot turn off the pump to save water and continue to heat the coils, it will turn the water to steam pressurizing the system and putting you at risk of a burn. Pressure would pop off the hoses the steam would be my concern.

I am also thinking about building a hot water system into the Jeep, it will use the coolant heat to warm the water and a 12V pump. Lots of articles on the internet about doing this modification.


The master bedroom in our house has a propane tankless hot water heater and we love it.

I had one that ran K1 and it was a thing of beauty other than being old and loud. Lasted at least 25 years in total. It required no maintenance and only had to get tossed because the jacket leaked through and was not available. Extremely efficient, very little electricity required total but the startup might take a good pull. I balked at the price of the new style flue on top of the heater when replacing it and went with a tank. It is a POS in comparison, complete utter junk with respect to having as much hot water as you want when you want it. It won't fill a medium tub after a shower and takes like a frickin hour to recover from a little laundry. Instant does waste more water by taking a bit longer to deliver though. I suspect that is improved in the new models - I know the newer monitor heaters are much quieter than the older ones for sure from my own units.

Again I didn't replace it (and regret it) but the newer monitor we got came from Rinnai and has been completely trouble free for 10 years of constant winter use. I'd look at their offerings first. I'd be highly suspect of a Bosch level unit etc.. I was going to switch to propane because the price/BTU has changed a lot now. 100gallons of K1 I'd guess to last well over a year of constant use but it was hard to tell because I drew a lot off that tank for the heaters in the winter.

BTW -Monitor heaters are the shit too.

I have installed them for both residental and commerical projects, that is why I said what I said.

Used to live in NEPA.
Constantly heating a tank of water was a waste of money. We had an old house with few options for installing a tank style heater outside of an unfinished basement.
We decided to go with an on demand heater. We chose Rinnai (http://www.rinnai.us/).
The upside: unlimited hot water as long as we hand gas. Not heating a tank all day and night.....and all day and night.
The downside: needed to flush the unit every 4-6 months to prevent build up due to hard water. Expense, they are not cheap. Slight lag as the hot water passed through the pipes.

If you have a reliable way to have a fuel and electrical source go for it. It's all about priorities; if this is high on your list then do it.

I think that during a disaster I would be very thankful one of my friends had a good supply of hot water that I could barter some of my junk silver for.

Tankless water heaters are an overly complicated expensive reinvention of the wheel.  

The only reasons I can see having one are:
1.  you dont have the space for a standard water heater or:
2. you have 10 people in your family who want to take showers consecutively.  Even then 2 regular water heaters would be better.  

Thats it, there are no other reasons.  

Oh, and running pond water through it?  It does not get hot long enough to sterilize nor does it even get hot enough to boil so whats the point?

The guy asked a simple question, there's no reason to be dicks if you don't agree that a tankless water heater is a "prep."

I've been using an Eccotemp L5 for a few months now. I'm living off-grid in an RV. It works OK, not as well as the water heater that came with the RV, a little more finicky, but uses a lot less propane. It needs a couple D batteries for the igniter. Seems to sip propane, have had a 20 lb tank attached since I set it up and it's maybe half empty. I don't use a ton of hot water, though.

As for a 12V pump, there are lots of RV-type pumps on the market, they're pretty easy to set up. You need a 12V battery to run them, or a converter plugged into 120VAC. I have a little Seaflo and a larger Shurflo, both work fine. I don't have an accumulator tank, so water surges a bit, not really a steady flow. I think the Eccotemp  would work better if I had an accumulator tank.

So you'll have 220 volts available to "heat" the water?

I have one and don't see any practical use as a prep other than a back up hot water source to my primary water heater.

Not needed, they run on propane.

And most are operated electronically still.
 

I've been looking at the Zodi's, mainly to stretch out camping trips without that 3-days-without-a-shower feeling.

Probably one of these two... top is cheaper, bottom has the convenient storage case/water bucket.





They've also got this one, which is basically a stainless steel garden sprayer, which would have more value in some situations (or if you weren't stocked hip-deep in propane)



My initial thought was to put one of the Sportsman's guide style units in the Trailer, along with a large water tank, but that (A) Limits the utility of the trailer, (B) requires me to wire it for power, and (C) Limits where the shower can be. So I'm leaning towards this method, instead.

I have used the second one several times and it works just like the Zodi I have that goes on top of my camp stove. I know some people who own the canister type and they seem to like it.

Im in the process of doing an outdoor shower for my hunting property.

I would consider this more then just a convenience as some have said. Sanitation and hygiene will be a top prep for any family.
And taking cold or frigid showers and baths will be problematic especially for children.

I did a lot of research on this topic recently and this is what I came up with.

The on demand portable (mine will be permanently mounted in the shower room) will be:
Triton brand. $109.00 shipped free from Target. It runs off of two D batteries. 1 regular propane tank is good for up to 18 hours of hot water.

I am using a Harbor Freight marine pump that runs on 12v and is rated for up to 35 psi which is well within the range of a normal house pressure.

The 12volt battery will be hooked to a small solar panel to keep it topped off and ready for powering the pump.

The pump will be pulling water from a 55 gallon food grade barrel that will be filled from my creek.

All water connections on the pump and heater are designed to be used with regular garden hose fittings.

The propane kicks on and heats the water automatically as soon as water starts flowing through it.

The only changes I am making is adding a switch to the pump wiring so I can turn it off and on from inside the shower room. Other then that everything is plug and play.

For the whole set up (minus the battery which I already have) I am under $200.00

A small price for a hot/warm shower for me and the family.

35psi at what GPM?
link to HF page?

ar-jedi

Thanks exactly the type of info I was hoping for.

Do these unit tend to meet the demand for hot water that's being required of them or do they never seem to get hot enough?

Same here, that sounds like what I'm looking for.

i had a similar need and after weighing 87 options the easiest, simplest, and cheapest way was to run 3/4" pex inside 1-1/2" poly from the house to the outbuilding.  there are a couple of ways to do this, and it will depend on whether you need hot water in the dead of winter.  if you don't, you can simply drain (gravity) or blow out (air compressor) the pipe during the winter months.  if you do, you can either bury the pipe below the frost line, or put a small recirculating pump circuit in with it.  

ar-jedi

Thanks, good info, I'm really interested in the HF 12v pump. I feel very much the same way as you do and it is the reason for pursuing the technology. I'm convinced that everyone being warm and clean will go a long way to seeing date nights on a regular basis - I don't care how shitty the world gets, date nights will be a treasure.

a while ago on tractorbynet there was a guy from Michigan who showed how he starts his forestry equipment in the depths of the winter.  he has added some plumbing to his F250, including quick-couplers on the coolant lines (std hydraulic type).  he gets out to the jobsite, turns off the truck, quick-couples the F250 to his heavy equipment (feller-buncher, skidder, etc), starts the truck, and spends 5 minutes finishing his coffee.  stop truck, uncouple everything, and turn the key in the feller-buncher, hit the starter button, and bam it's running. take a look at the temperature gauge, the engine block is already at operating temperature.  nice setup.

it got me thinking that a simple, similar setup with an outboard heat exchanger could be used to heat water for showering or similar.  but this is a lot of capacity, unless you have a couple of kids or a group.  for simple showering in SHTF, just pre-purchase a quality all-metal garden sprinkler can.  you can heat it in 87 ways (fire, stovetop, grill, sterno, alcohol stove, etc) and give yourself a shower.

ar-jedi

Here's one, low cost couple it with this pump.

A hot shower when the shtf is a great moral booster. Set it up with a small trailer and poly tote you have
a portable hot water system

Thanks, dead of winter as in January, not as much, but hot water in through december will make cleaning game, processing hams and putting up sausage more pleasurable. I'm tired of freezing fingers. being in SE pa, we share similar weather, i just get it a little sooner than you do. I've thought about running water to it before, it's a good idea AR. That said, given the places I like to go and the property in the mountains, having an additional impromptu shower is a great option. 1 bathroom at the BOL and a bunch of people - an extra shower would be a nice to have. The plan there is to turn the barn into living quarters, it has water and a head, but no shower.... which is where this would be handy as well.. I just wanted to find out if they worked worth a damn and if there was a favorite.

exactly


eta: fracking chinese make everything anymore.

How about putting a bathroom and tub on the ground floor near the kitchen. If you are looking for useless advice I would say get a tankless water heater for your  BOL  and get a server while you are at it.

Another useful bit of advice, if you are serious about a water heater for your BOL try looking into a wood fired water heater, they will burn more than wood in a true SHTF situation are sustainable.

Here is the one I bought. There are two sizes in this style and I bought the bigger one that will do 300 GPH and up to 50 psi.
The on demand water heaters I looked at all are designed to be run at regular household pressures so it might take some adjustments to get the flow just right but a flow valve is an easy install also.

http://m.harborfreight.com/12-volt-marine-utility-water-pump-94639.html?utm_referrer=direct%2Fnot%20provided

Great advice , thanks.

What I've read about those is that they don't get hot enough on one pass if it's cold out, so what you do is take the showerhead, stuff it in the water bucket, let it warm up your reservoir, and you can get it as hot as you want.

I ASSUME this is what he's talking about... and it's 35' of head, not 35psi.

http://www.harborfreight.com/12-volt-marine-utility-water-pump-94639.html

Yes but it is rated up to 50 psi.... I will be using it around 35 psi.

Edit to include:

The water heaters are designed to work off of normal house water pressure which depending on where you live is going  to average around 30-60psi. So I am working off that that pressure to make sure the tankless heater works efficiently.

I put one in my house to free up space in my laundry room.


It needs electricity to run, so that kind of sucks when the power is out


Not sure it saves a lot of propane, maybe it does better for a single man that isn't at home a lot.  But if you are running it a lot, probably not.  Just convenience, no more cold showers






Not sure about them being any more or higher maintenance, haven't done a thing with it for 7 years.

The Zodi's seem to work fine unless the water is around freezing,  so in the dead of winter recirculating the water is a good idea.

A camp site at a private offroad location has one of the deluxe tankless type from SportsmansGuide and never had any problem with the water being cold even in the winter (of course it was not frozen).

http://manuals.harborfreight.com/manuals/94000-94999/94639.pdf

so, a few things:

1) every (EVERY) fluid pump has a psi vs gpm curve which characterizes how the pressure and flow interact (in general, the higher the pressure the lower the flow, right up until the pressure is so high that there is no flow; you could say that at this point the pump has "stalled" against the pressure).  the above linked PDF does not provide this characteristic curve, nor does it provide a table of pressures and associated flow rates.  so, it's not possible to back-of-the-napkin-calculate a system pressure vs flow scenario, given for example a few dozen feet of 1/2" pipe and a 2.5 GPM shower head.  

2) the PDF does state that this pump is for intermittent use only, but provides no usage profile.  
  -> This utility pump is designed for intermittent use only. Do not use the utility pump over excessive lengths of time, as premature wearing will result.
it's not clear that excessive length of time means more than 2 minutes or more than 20 minutes...

3) as with any positive displacement rubber impeller pump, the impeller depends on the pumped liquid for lubrication and cooling..  
  ->Do not allow the utility pump to run dry. Fill the pump with liquid before operation. Failing to do so may damage the seal ring (19), which depends on the liquid for its lubrication.
therefore you must have positive head on your setup to ensure that the pump impeller is always wet.  

4) from a system perspective it will be important NOT to have a manual valve downstream from this pump.  it has no internal pressure regulator.  it is not a "demand pump" with an intergral pressure switch.  closing the shower valve while the linked pump is running will cause peak pump pressure to be attained, the flow rate is of course zero, and then the impeller will be spinning in it's own turbulence.  this will overheat the motor, overheat the rubber impeller, and may appreciably shorten the life of the pump.

5) i can't find anything in the PDF that this pump is NSF-approved for potable water.  the seal type used at the pump shaft/impeller interface is probably not  listed for food use.  the impeller rubber itself is probably not listed for food use.  something to consider.

6) the addition of a small accumulator tank (pressure tank) may be useful.

see also
http://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Pressurized-Freshwater-Systems
and
http://www.westmarine.com/buy/shurflo--aqua-king-automatic-pressure-water-pumps--P011_331_002_510

ar-jedi

We built an "outhouse" on the side of the cabin we built on our land. - I put outhouse in quotes because we did not dig a hole,

it's actually just a side room that we put a portable chemical toilet in and a shower. - my wife painted a crescent moon on the door.

I installed a simple 3x3 fiberglass shower kit and added a Coleman Hot Water on Demand System.

It has a rechargeable battery pack to run the pump, but can run on any 12v power source or from 110v,
It works with the 1lb propane tanks, or can be fitted with an adapter to run for other propane sources.

It comes with a collapsible 5 gal tank, or you can rig it up to just pump water from a pond or stream.

I built an elevated stand outside our "outhouse" and installed a 35gal water tank to feed it and ran the shower head adapter into the shower unit.

It works well, is self-contained and portable and ours has lasted for several years already.

**** Why is it a prep item? ****

I consider anything that allows me to continue a normal lifestyle a prep item.
The portable toilet is nice, especially for the women folk.

and a hot shower is always welcome, especially after you have been outside working all day.

I have a Navian CH240 it does heat and hot water. I can say enough good things about the unit. This is a 2 family house and its been a champ. I wouldnt go back to a shitty tank hot water heater if you paid me

its 110v and draws less than the circulator pumps.

I've worked on gas and electric tankless.  The gas ones are further divided down to propane and NG.  You can't just switch them.  The gas ones still require 120vac to run.  They ignite when a sensor shows water flow.  The electric ones use a lot of amps.  I would think electric would be out.

They require maintenance.  In hard water areas deposits grow on the calrods of the electric ones.  The condensates/flues are very particular as well.  Just the right amount of water flow, just the right amount of pressure on the flue.

I personally wouldn't get either.

ETA:  I thought you were talking about ones to be used on a home.  It appears that you are wanting some kind of camping one.