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I think the part that Magpul is not understanding here is this condition can occur immediately following loading magazine.
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Okay, I will return them to the place I purchased them from. I've already been in contact with the place of purchase and made them aware of the issue. I purchased ten M3 20-rounders but have only opened one package. I will open the other nine and test them when I return back home. Make no mistake or assumption, there is an issue with these mags. I will gladly get them back to you through my reseller for further testing. I can assure you that the mag I tested can NOT be inserted into the magwell fully on a closed bolt when the problem occurs... Please do not return them to the retailer you bought them from. Who knows when, or if, we'll ever get them back for inspection... Please contact our Tech Support Dept. at [email protected] to arrange for replacements, exchange, or store credit. |
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Return the mags to us. We will look at them in case it's different from anything we've seen. If the mags are faulty, we will gladly swap them. Heck, if it's a problem we haven't seen, we'll even send you extras for your trouble.
The exact same occurrence you are demonstrating has zero effect on function of insertion, feeding, or operation when it does occur in test mags here in the nearly countless repetitions we have executed in testing. Perhaps we will see a problem with one of your mags. It is a function of stack geometry, and there are reasons that geometry is the way it is. You do need to understand that insertion force is higher than other 20 rounders because it is a 30 round spring, which increases reliability. Force should not exceed 25 or so pounds. Until we see the mags in person, we can't do anything else, because it has not proven problematic in hundreds of tested combinations. What are your results with these magazines on the range? Are you seeing malfunctions? Is the top round not stripping after a tac reload? If the rifle is empty and you slingshot the charging handle, does the top round not strip? As well as the insertion tests, measuring against the print, and a few other things, these are the firing tests we will do when the mags get here. |
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You do need to understand that insertion force is higher than other 20 rounders because it is a 30 round spring, which increases reliability. This is interesting. Good info. |
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Okay, I will contact CS on Friday when back home and work out details to send them back direct to Magpul. I've only opened one package, but this one mag is not worthy of making a trip to the range - it won't even pass basic functional testing. Heck, it won't even reliable lock in on a closed bolt. I can force it in as hard as I want and it won't go in. If I try any harder, something will break - seriously, it wont go in no matter how hard you push. I am aware of these being harder to load as it doesnt always have the issue and can see it requiring more force.
When I get back home, I will open remaining 9 packs and test them too. We'll then decide if the problem is isolated to the single mag or all ten. I will also try to dupe results with first mag. If same results or other problems, I will make more videos. I hope to find at lease one good M3, or worst case compare to Gen1 mag, and show the functional deltas between them. I will get you some more accurate data on this by end of week. Thanks for your support on this |
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I got my replacement PMAG 20s today stamped 4/13 and they work great! They go in easily whether the bolt is open or closed. Thanks for the great service Magpul, I'll be sending the old ones back tomorrow.
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I received my replacement magazines today as well. They work flawlessly. Thanks for the excellent customer service Magpul! I have the old magazines packaged up and will drop them in the mail on the date that the label indicates.
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Dang it, my replacements had the same issue, could have been possible I got magazines from maybe another bad batch?
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I think a small part of the problem may be with the ammo. I'm having the same problem getting the magazine to lock. If I load brand new lake city green tip ammo, the magazine will lock with only a scratch down the length of the casing. If I load once fired lake city ammo in the magazine, it will put a dent in the round when I try to get it to lock. I have the same problem with the 30 round magazines. I don't have this problem with standard USGI mags.
I don't have a problem with rounds getting moved next to each other though. I think the magazine catch may need to be moved up a little. |
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/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Update 4/25/2013 ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Tested again this morning with randomly selected 3 out of 8 Pmag 20 rounders rec'd by AZarmaments. All were dated stamped 3/2013 #5. Used again the above mentioned four rifles. Both Rock River Arms had RRA Carrier & Bolts. The Colt-LE and Nodak Spud both had standard Colt Carrier & Bolts. All magazines closed on both open and closed bolts without any problems. All four rifles functioned fawlessly with all three magazines in striping, feeding,chambering and ejection. All magazines were loaded with 20 rds of new Federal 55 gr ammo. Cycled at least five to seven rounds from each magazine throught each rifle. No problems. |
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Now I'm not so sure it's the ammo.
If I put 20 rounds in the magazine and push it real fast into the magwell, it will refuse to lock. Just like what's in tompats video. If I put the mag in the magwell slowly until it hits the mag catch, then push slowly upword it will lock everytime. Seems like inserting the magazine into the magwell to fast is the cause of it not locking. I don't know why this is. |
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Well guys, I'm back in town and performed additional testing. I grabbed a backpack, threw in ten boxes of various ammo and ten brand new M3 20-rounders. Drove two hours to my hunting property. One of the ten mags was the original in my previous video. I loaded them up and ran through slamming them into the magwells and here is where I might need to eat some crow. I even had my buddy load several boxes and pass me the mags that he loaded. I had a total of ZERO failures. However, there were some differences from what I used in previous tests. Instead of the Colt LE6920 that I previously used, I used a new Dissapator that I just finished building. Also all the ammo used today was different than what i used last time. To be fair, I may have to drive back out there and take the Colt and the other ammo I previously used. Wife has to work tomorrow so I might be able to run Colt back out there and test again. Please stay tuned for another update from me...
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Disregard what I was saying in my post on page 3, cause I'm an idiot.
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I didn't get a chance to perform additional testing this past weekend. For those following this thread, for now, my results were positive with zero failures thus far, when firing rounds down range.
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I've yet to see a 20rd Pmag that would run right, any gen. I have 30s and love em, but aluminum 20s for me.
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I've yet to see a 20rd Pmag that would run right, any gen. I have 30s and love em, but aluminum 20s for me. Funny. I have all gens and have never had an issue. |
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UPDATE
So I went over to the manufacturer of my rifle (Accurate armory) and spoke to him about my mag problems. We put the (replacement) mags in several different rifles, and could produce failures in each weapon (including other brands other than his own). Keith at accurate did some measurements on the mags compared to the 30 rounders and immediately said he thought it was a manufacturing issue and he thought he could fix them. After about 15 minutes of machining, he said he was pretty sure he had identified and corrected the issue. Loaded up all the mags and ran them. Worked great after. I'm not trying to sling any mud here at magpul ( my rifle is ALL magpul furniture), they make a great product. But some of these mags have issues. |
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I've yet to see a 20rd Pmag that would run right, any gen. I have 30s and love em, but aluminum 20s for me. Funny. I have all gens and have never had an issue. |
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UPDATE So I went over to the manufacturer of my rifle (Accurate armory) and spoke to him about my mag problems. We put the (replacement) mags in several different rifles, and could produce failures in each weapon (including other brands other than his own). Keith at accurate did some measurements on the mags compared to the 30 rounders and immediately said he thought it was a manufacturing issue and he thought he could fix them. After about 15 minutes of machining, he said he was pretty sure he had identified and corrected the issue. Loaded up all the mags and ran them. Worked great after. I'm not trying to sling any mud here at magpul ( my rifle is ALL magpul furniture), they make a great product. But some of these mags have issues. Care to share the solution? |
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Quoted: This thread is...........vague. So much so, that I just took mine back to the lgs and traded it on a gen 2 30 rounder. My situation mimiced the original posters exactly, right down to the creased bullet case. I have a seekins forged lower. In my case it appears that the new insertion limiter tab on the case is keeping mine from going in far enough to latch. At that point you can force the mag forward rotating around the point where the tab and the bottom of the magwell meet. The mag latch will catch but not fully drop into position doing this. In this situation the inserted mag will not move at all. It is in a bind with the bottom of the mag being pushed forward. When my 30 rounder is installed and latched in place I can move and shake it all around. |
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Quoted: I'll take a pic later and show the spot they had to machine. how much later? |
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I'll take a pic later and show the spot they had to machine. how much later? Wait for it.... |
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I have a problem with Gen 3 20 round Pmags that's different from what's discussed here. Right out of the package getting FTL's with both magazines. Bullets getting hung up leaving the magazine at the bullet/case joint. Looking at the mags, the inside edge of the case is catching the round. I know it would probably be an easy fix to scrape a little material off the mag, but why should I have to repair a new mag? On Gen 2's, the bullets feed fine without contacting the front of the case. My mags were manufactured in 3/13.
Not happy with the new design. BTW, left many messages for Magpul tech support that are never returned. :-( |
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just got ten 20rds M3 pmags. date code 04/13. Loaded 20rds of AE ammo. No issues on closed bolt. Nice and tight. Actually better than my gen 1 pmag 30rds that I have to slap hard on close bolt.
lower is Daniel Defense. Upper is KAC mod 1. |
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I prefer the extra spring tension on my G3s and even ordered some Wolff extra power springs for my gen 1 20rd mags. Takes a little more effort to slap it in to lock it in the mag well, but thats OK.
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Was there any Update on this issue? I just put together a JD lower and upper build and the Bolt carrier hits the feed lips. I have to bang the mag in to get it to lock. If I insert it with no ammo and I release the bolt it hits the top of the feedlips and then it won't go into battery even with the forward assist. Same mag fits tight in my buddys rifle different lower and upper but functions. I have tried several Gen2's and USGI mags and they all fit perfect and function fine in my rifle just not the Gen3 10/20. I have to use 10/20's in California.
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how come no one will post the resolution of this issue? Probably because it really was not an issue. Extra mag spring tension will obviously require just a little more force to lock it in on a closed bolt. I for one, like the use of a full size 30rd spring for their 20rd mags. Longer life. The OP likely figured this out by now. |
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I am having this same issue. I have tried 3 out of the 10 mags I purchased. It is very difficult to get the mag to lock in on a closed bolt but it is possible but then I can not rack a round because the BCG is getting hung up on the mag. This is very frustrating. I have tried these mags in a Rock River lower and in an Aero Precision lower and I am getting the same results. My M2 PMAGs work flawlessly.
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what date code on your mags ? Date code is 3/13 and the number 05 is above the date stamp. |
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Interesting Thread
I also had this exact problem with a curved,20-round PMAG that I bought last weekend at my LGS.It would not lock into any gun on a closed bolt.If I pushed real hard on the mag,it would lock,but the first round would have a flat spot where it was crushed against the BCG. After some experiments,I concluded that the mag was defective.I could not duplicate the problem with any 20 or 30-round GI mags,any of my 30-round PMAG's,or any of my 20-round straight PMAG's. I thought that the long spring was coil-bound inside the mag,as I could not push down on the rounds at all.They were jammed solid as a stack.I then noticed that the second round was tilting up and causing the jam. Just like in the guys youtube video posted earlier,if I pushed on the second round and dislodged it,the mag would lock in some of the time.When the mag would not lock in,the second round was always jamming up the stack solid,and would dent the top round into the BCG. I will not say if this is a design issue,but my problem is exactly as those posted by other members.Could be a bad lot of mags,and I don't have it anymore to compare date codes with the others that had problems. My solution was to bring it back to the LGS,and exchange it for a straight,20-round PMAG.No more curved,20-round PMAG's for me |
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I continue to have issues seating two 3/13 date and one 1/13 coded magazines on a closed bolt. At times there are no issues. At other times I must force the magazine to lock. When this happens the second from the top round becomes tilted in the magazine. The rear is tilted down and the front is tilted up. This happens with either 20 or 18 rounds loaded. I am using CMMG and BCM lowers with ADCO and BCM complete uppers.
I feel like it has something to do with the cartridge stack and the 30 round magazine spring being used. For fun a tried a 30 round M3 from 10/2012. It will do the same thing however it is not nearly as noticeable due to the longer magazine body and less tension on the spring when seating. I have pictures if someone would like to post them. I have emailed Magpul with the pictures asking for their feedback. |
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i have 2 new 20 round gen m3 pmags and they will seat but they are extremely hard to get locked. much harder than the 30 round m3
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After a pretty exhaustive and continuing effort to track this down and duplicate it, we think we've got something that we're vetting out right now. We've been working on this since the issue surfaced, but we had been unable to duplicate it until just recently, when we included ammunition tolerances as an area of study. It's been frustrating. I even have some of the returned mags still in my SPR rotation, as we couldn't previously duplicate the issue, and I still can't with the ammunition types/lots that I've been shooting in that rifle.
It took messing with a LOT of combinations to get to the bottom of it, but we believe we've identified the cause of what some of you are experiencing. If this pans out, it only affects a small percentage of mags, when used with certain ammunition types/lots, and is a matter of a few thousandths of tolerance stacking. The 30 rounders, 10 rounders, and 40 rounders are unaffected. We're doing some additional testing, and if this path is correct, it will be an easy fix, and we'll get everyone that has affected magazines sorted out with replacements that will not be sensitive to the ammunition tolerances that allow this issue to occur. Once we verify the issue and the extent of potentially affected magazines with certain combinations of ammunition types, we'll make a determination as to how best to make sure everyone who purchased is GTG. As usual, we'll make sure everyone ends up happy. In the meantime, if anyone with an affected magazine would like to exchange their 20 round M3 mags for a 10 or 30 instead of waiting for the findings and resolution for the 20 rounder, we'd be more than happy to do that, as well. Just to be clear, this is only the issue where the second round tries to come parallel with the top round. General difficulty in seating has more to do with this being a 30 round spring inside the 20 round body, which we did for reliability, but can create the impression of greater seating force due to the smaller magazine body of the 20 rounder. There are no dimensional or internal differences otherwise that would make the 20 harder to seat than the 30, unless the magazine/ammo tolerance stacking issue allows that second round to start to "peek up". Thanks for your patience on this, and thanks for bringing it to our attention. |
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After a pretty exhaustive and continuing effort to track this down and duplicate it, we think we've got something that we're vetting out right now. We've been working on this since the issue surfaced, but we had been unable to duplicate it until just recently, when we included ammunition tolerances as an area of study. It's been frustrating. I even have some of the returned mags still in my SPR rotation, as we couldn't previously duplicate the issue, and I still can't with the ammunition types/lots that I've been shooting in that rifle. It took messing with a LOT of combinations to get to the bottom of it, but we believe we've identified the cause of what some of you are experiencing. If this pans out, it only affects a small percentage of mags, when used with certain ammunition types/lots, and is a matter of a few thousandths of tolerance stacking. The 30 rounders, 10 rounders, and 40 rounders are unaffected. We're doing some additional testing, and if this path is correct, it will be an easy fix, and we'll get everyone that has affected magazines sorted out with replacements that will not be sensitive to the ammunition tolerances that allow this issue to occur. Once we verify the issue and the extent of potentially affected magazines with certain combinations of ammunition types, we'll make a determination as to how best to make sure everyone who purchased is GTG. As usual, we'll make sure everyone ends up happy. In the meantime, if anyone with an affected magazine would like to exchange their 20 round M3 mags for a 10 or 30 instead of waiting for the findings and resolution for the 20 rounder, we'd be more than happy to do that, as well. Just to be clear, this is only the issue where the second round tries to come parallel with the top round. General difficulty in seating has more to do with this being a 30 round spring inside the 20 round body, which we did for reliability, but can create the impression of greater seating force due to the smaller magazine body of the 20 rounder. There are no dimensional or internal differences otherwise that would make the 20 harder to seat than the 30, unless the magazine/ammo tolerance stacking issue allows that second round to start to "peek up". Thanks for your patience on this, and thanks for bringing it to our attention. This is why you guys are the best. Thanks! |
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I just came in here and was going to report about 7 of my 20 rders that i had probs with and noticed this thread so at least i dont have to start one, standing by to see what can be done to fix my 7-20 rder pmags, thanks again
Semper Fi USMC |
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Thanks MAGPUL.
Glad you figured it out and that you are working on a solution. I too noticed this problem. Pulling my 20 round M3's from duty use till you guys find a fix Going back to my older straight body 20rd PMAGS. They always worked 100 percent for me. Love the 20 rounders for clearing and working in tight spots and getting in and out of vehicle's........Dont get me wrong..I also have 30 round PMAG's in my Vest and Vehicle John |
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After a pretty exhaustive and continuing effort to track this down and duplicate it, we think we've got something that we're vetting out right now. We've been working on this since the issue surfaced, but we had been unable to duplicate it until just recently, when we included ammunition tolerances as an area of study. It's been frustrating. I even have some of the returned mags still in my SPR rotation, as we couldn't previously duplicate the issue, and I still can't with the ammunition types/lots that I've been shooting in that rifle. It took messing with a LOT of combinations to get to the bottom of it, but we believe we've identified the cause of what some of you are experiencing. If this pans out, it only affects a small percentage of mags, when used with certain ammunition types/lots, and is a matter of a few thousandths of tolerance stacking. The 30 rounders, 10 rounders, and 40 rounders are unaffected. We're doing some additional testing, and if this path is correct, it will be an easy fix, and we'll get everyone that has affected magazines sorted out with replacements that will not be sensitive to the ammunition tolerances that allow this issue to occur. Once we verify the issue and the extent of potentially affected magazines with certain combinations of ammunition types, we'll make a determination as to how best to make sure everyone who purchased is GTG. As usual, we'll make sure everyone ends up happy. In the meantime, if anyone with an affected magazine would like to exchange their 20 round M3 mags for a 10 or 30 instead of waiting for the findings and resolution for the 20 rounder, we'd be more than happy to do that, as well. Just to be clear, this is only the issue where the second round tries to come parallel with the top round. General difficulty in seating has more to do with this being a 30 round spring inside the 20 round body, which we did for reliability, but can create the impression of greater seating force due to the smaller magazine body of the 20 rounder. There are no dimensional or internal differences otherwise that would make the 20 harder to seat than the 30, unless the magazine/ammo tolerance stacking issue allows that second round to start to "peek up". Thanks for your patience on this, and thanks for bringing it to our attention. View Quote MAGPUL....I know you guys are busy....but any update? |
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magpul could you bring back the gen2 moe 20rd pmags? i don't want mag that's harder to insert and with curved body, thanks!
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MAGPUL any updates? Fixes?
There are now new posts regarding these problems popping up in both the Magazine Forum and in MAGPUL's own forum. Thanks John |
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Yep, we're vetting out the fix. It was a pretty tiny change, but is testing out well with combinations that were previously problematic. As soon as we've finished proving this out with all the variables accounted for, we'll start full production and announce replacement instructions. Thanks for your patience, and we'll get everyone taken care of.
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I have the same issues with mine, but my issues are both with my 20's and my 30's. With them unloaded or with bolt open, they work fine. Load more than 10 or so rounds in them or close the bolt and they won't lock.
I'm anxious to hear the fix. @magpul, I sent 10 of my unopened 30 round M3's back to the retailer I bought them from yesterday before I noticed this thread. However, I still have 3 30's and 2 20's that I had opened I couldn't send back. I'll wait to hear if I can fix them from you, but if not should I send them back to you? Thanks for putting so much effort into this issue we are having. |
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My four Gen3 20 rounders where fine when I first loaded them. They clicked in fine on a closed bolt, but literally 10min later I tried to insert them again and it was a no-go. Same AR, same mags...pretty strange.
ETA: They stayed loaded from first insert to the last of the 10min. They're still new. |
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MAGPUL any further update? Can you share with us exactly what was causing
these round stacking problems on the 20 round M3 magazines and why it did not effect the 10 or 30 round M3 magazines? Just curious here & I would like to thank you for looking into this problem so quickly and actually listening to us ARFCOM members who religiously use MAGPUL products. Not many manufacturers listen to their customers as well as your company and for this I think MAGPUL will be blessed with a very successful company in the future and your best advertisement will be word of mouth. |
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MAGPUL any further update? Can you share with us exactly what was causing these round stacking problems on the 20 round M3 magazines and why it did not effect the 10 or 30 round M3 magazines? Just curious here & I would like to thank you for looking into this problem so quickly and actually listening to us ARFCOM members who religiously use MAGPUL products. Not many manufacturers listen to their customers as well as your company and for this I think MAGPUL will be blessed with a very successful company in the future and your best advertisement will be word of mouth. View Quote I got an email from Magpul yesterday, and they said they are still working on it but it may be a few weeks before they get everything taken care of. They are having trouble duplicating the problem some of us are having, however, those of us that are having problems will be taken care of. I myself have the same issues with both the M3 20 round mags as well as the M3 30 round mags. I don't want to paraphrase what was told to me in the email, but rest assured we will all be continued happy magpul customers. |
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