As usual the PGC will fuck this opportunity up.

How many hunters are they claiming this year? I remeber hunting numbers being 1.1 million.

I'm thinking the same thing, except I can't wait to be able to use my 458 SOCOM SBR, and have an excuse to buy a Grendel.

Was on the Pa Game Commission website and they had a link to this:

http://www.media.pa.gov/Pages/Game-Commission-Details.aspx?newsid=85






11/23/2016

GAME COMMISSION REMINDS DEER HUNTERS OF RIFLE RESTRICTIONS

HARRISBURG, PA - As the statewide firearms deer season approaches, the Pennsylvania Game Commission reminds deer hunters that rifles used during the season must be manually operated.

Earlier this month, the Pennsylvania General Assembly passed legislation that will enable the Pennsylvania Game Commission to regulate the use of semiautomatic rifles and air rifles for hunting, and the bill was signed into law this week.

But the Game Commission has not yet made any changes to the lists of lawful arms and ammunition for any hunting season.

For deer hunters in the upcoming firearms deer season, that means all centerfire rifles, handguns and shotguns to be used must be manually operated. The only exception is that semiautomatic shotguns may be used to hunt deer in five counties – Allegheny, Bucks, Chester, Delaware and Montgomery – that are defined as Special Regulations Areas.

Semiautomatic rifles generally are not permitted for any type of hunting in any part of the state at this time.

Things could change in the coming months.

At its upcoming meetings, the Pennsylvania Board of Game Commissioners will be discussing the newly signed legislation and the possibility of adding semiautomatic rifles and air rifles to the lawful arms and ammunition list for various hunting seasons. But any changes must follow the schedule dictated by required procedure.

Under the law, proposed regulatory changes must be adopted preliminarily, then advertised and brought back to a subsequent meeting for a final vote.

With the board’s next quarterly meeting scheduled for January, no allowances for hunting with semiautomatic rifles or air rifles could be approved before April 2017.

The Game Commission will issue a news release announcing any changes at the time they are made.

People have been wanting this change for decades and they are just now going to "discuss" it? PAGC can fuck right off. Get with the times, morons.

Don't know why I wasted my time writing that. Those fudds don't belong to websites like this one.

Personally I question what a semi-auto rifle actually brings to the sport of hunting? Just my opinion. Some guys are still going to miss their game regardless of how many rounds they can fire and the .223 round is marginal at best on deer and is only really practical on varmints. It may make the appliance shooters and video game crowd happy but I don`t feel it really brings anything to the sport.

There are a lot of Semi autos in calibers other than .223. The AR platform is highly adaptable to different sized shooters, easily suppressed, modular for different set ups. I'm amazed how many people are so closed minded and we wonder why advancing 2A issues are so hard, we are our own worst enemy.

This.

Agreed! Some forget that we have .30 Cal AR platforms that can be used for deer.

Heavy but a bolt action AR, just sayin...

It's not all about how fast or how many follow up shots one can take.  Think about recoil reduction...
A youth hunter, smaller framed hunter, disabled hunter, or aged hunter with worn out shoulders might really appreciate the ability to take a clean killing shot and not get "punished" by recoil or flinch at it.
It also opens the door to being able to bring 1 "all-purpose" rifle on a hunt... I spend most of my hunts in a ground blind, but also take opportunities to stalk or change stands if conditions warrant it.
It would be nice not to have to decide between the 30-30 & 06... One is better suited to the blind, where shots could reach 225 yards, the other, better for the sub-60 yard shots at my other stands or walks between...

Personally, I'd love to be able to take a relatively compact, light-weight, very low recoil, AR variant (thinking 6.8)  on my hunts and have all scenarios covered nicely.

I hunt squirrel with a bolt-action Marlin 880,  it works ok.  I own a semi-auto Marlin 795 that is orders of magnitude more accurate than my 880.  I don't know why but its phenomenal, commonly putting rounds into the same hole at 50yds.  I'd really like to take it into the squirrel woods but the Regs say I'm not allowed to use the more accurate tool for the job.  In my opinion, that's just stupid.

Honestly PA needs to simplify the damn hunting laws and I see Semi-Auto being allowed as a step in the right direction. Trying to explain hunting rules and regs too a newcomer recently made me realize just how stupid the rules are. I once got stopped by a PGC guy for not having an orange hat on during "early youth flintlock season weekend" or something... middle of archery. He did laugh when after doing the usual "well my bad will keep that in mind next time..." I pointed out most children never touched a flintlock in their lives much less hunted with one. I feel like you need to think like a lawyer to figure out what is and is not legal for big game seasons and the mapping for PGC/DCNR/DMAP land is (well, almost) deliberately obtuse. I will stop my bitching session there before I start ranting about how dumb the Doe tag situation is and how you can't just buy the damn thing online with the rest of the stuff just so the County scores like 4 dollars (why this can't be kicked back to them on shipping online doe permits based on County of origin of hunter is beyond me).  

Anyways, thank you to those who bugged the folks in charge to make this happen. Our state is a beautiful place and damn, it is worth fighting for. Nod also to the good line folks out in the fields who make the seasons work, not you I am bitching at. I hope this goes to deer season quick so I have an excuse to pick up a decent BAR in wood for the occasion

It's more about removing arbitrary restrictions than anything else. Why can't i use any firearm i choose in a reasonable caliber?
If you don't think it adds any value that's fine - don't use one.

Do we know how the PGC meeting went yesterday?

This response doesn't shock me coming from you as I suspect you're one of the main Fudds up at Dormont-Mt. Lebanon.

I don't even hunt, but I can assure of you this, if I can hunt coyotes with an AR-15, or my SCAR 17 in Pennsylvania, I will become a hunter real quick.

You probably are against using a suppressor to hunt with as well. Don't want to assassinate those animals.

I watched the meeting online.  They discussed the issue for about 45 minutes.  Everything mentioned was only general proposals.  Nothing is solid yet.  Looks fairly positive for small game hunting with semi-auto's, but big game is kind of iffy, but not out of the question yet.  

For big game they talked about possibly introducing a caliber restriction for all rifles, bolt action and or semi-auto  (I believe 25 caliber or larger was mentioned for big game, reason being there currently are no restrictions except being center fire cartridges).  

They also talked about whether or not to limit magazine capacity for semi-auto's.  Sounds like if semi's get approved for big game, they may be limited to 5 round magazines plus one in the chamber. 
There may or may not be magazine restrictions regarding small game hunting with rifles, at least for predators and woodchucks.  

If you are for hunting with semi's, maybe give them a polite call or email and let them know you are in favor of hunting with semi-automatics for both small and big game. They did mention that they are taking note of the public opinion on the issue.   PGC contact info


The link below is the meeting.  The discussion starts at 33:00 and ends at 1:18:00.

https://livestream.com/accounts/817403/events/6698225/videos/143539333

The .25 cal restriction sucks. It may save a couple deer from suffering each year but with modern bullets I don't see it as necessary.

The other side of that is the uneducated guys wouldn't be out shooting deer with 55 fmj. It's cheap and as a small town PA boy I could see some of us hillbillies using it due to cost rather than picking something that's a more efficient killer.

If that portion does get passed I may be building my brother a Grendel. MAYBE I could just lend him one of mine but what fun would that be.

@Bad_Moon

Thank you for linking the video. It was a great watch.

I'm glad they're talking through the process and researching other states. It was also good to hear them admit they're the 49th state that would allow semi auto. That should be a huge wake up call in itself.

As I mentioned above that caliber limit is unnecessary. PA whitetail aren't as big as they think. Like elk they could implement a restriction for bear at the same .27 limit. IMO even if they do restrict for whitetail they could allow 223 but set a weight limit at 68gr+.

Since you sat through the whole meeting and I only watched the semi auto portion for tonight, did they discuss opening hunting on Sunday? That'd make a whole lot of hunters happy.

HONORABLE MENTION - I can't believe I didn't hear about airgun legislation. That's a cool addition for squirrel hunters. When it first came up I got excited and thought I'd have to buy a 357 caliber air gun if I move back to quietly whack some venison.

There was no mention of Sunday hunting.  

I don't want to derail the thread,  but the only other major issues they brought up imo was possibly adding the requirement of a permit for anyone using the game lands and a permit for hunting pheasants.  Also mentioned an 8 million dollar deficit....

It's possible that allowing semi-auto's will lead to more hunting license sales and it sounds like they need the revenue.  

 

When I hunted there roughly a decade ago they were touting 1 million hunters in the woods. I can't believe it's anywhere near that now and they bought a shitload of forest land. There's the reason for the huge deficit. They have to realize they need ways to bring hunters back. That's my glimmering hope they'll ignore the hardcore "FUDDS" and modernize the sport with minimal restrictions.

My gripe with caliber guidelines is that it doesnt take into account the cartridge pushing the bullet.  A 22-250, .223, and 5.7x28 all shoot the same bullet diameter.  

I have a 6.5BRX that I plan on hunting with as a MANUAL side charge upper until they figure out what's up.  It zings 107gr at nearly 3000fps and 130s over 2650fps.  Then you can get a .264  win mag which slings 140s fast.  A bullet diameter minimum is stupid.  You can get 6.8spc and meet the requirement of bullet diameter size.  It makes no sense.  My BRX isn't good enough for Elk but a 6.8spc is as well as .300blk based on weight and caliber only.  Compared to my hotrod 6.5, 6.8 and .300blk are poor choices but legal......

.243 is a seriously awesome whitetail cartridge but with a .25 cal minimum that puts a .243 AR10 ineligible for whitetail?  Por que?

Here's the letter I sent the game commision. A lot of these points were discussed in the meeting I just wanted reiterate them.


Hello,

I'd like to share my opinions on the introduction of semi-auto rifles into Pennsylvania big game/predator hunting. As a former resident and someone that will return to the state someday I feel it's a fantastic change.

As has been shown in other states there is no significant change in safety incidents, if any variation at all, in states they're currently permitted in. As a brother of a man who's been shot while hunting I'm well aware there are unsafe hunters in the woods but do not feel we're in a less safe situation just because of an auto loading action. Those actions allow you to hold a better line of sight and maintain a target sight picture. Some current manual action rifles such as the Remington 760/7600 pump have a similar rate of fire as a semi auto. More distractions/actions in a process the higher the chance you won't notice something you may have picked up on otherwise.

There is also discussion of implementing a caliber restriction. In my opinion this isn't necessary for whitetail and may exclude hunters using their favorite rifles. Many deer have been ethically killed using 223 and 243 rifles and the proposed .25 restriction would exclude those. Shot placement is key as we know and gut shooting a deer with a 338 caliber rifle doesn't change the possible unfortunate result of a suffering animal. With that said I wouldn't be opposed to a bullet weight guideline. 68gr+ modern expanding bullets are extremely effective in harvesting game. That would prevent hunters from picking up 55gr FMJ loads that may cause slow deaths in misplaced shots. It'd be the same ideology as disallowing field points for archery season.

Magazine capacity restrictions are also unnecessary but in the hopes it'll impose better shot placement I'd suggest 10rd limits. They are more plentiful than 5rd magazines and there are rifles in the woods currently with >5rd capacity. 10rd magazines are also slightly cheaper due to supply and demand.

Thank you for listening to and considering the opinions of a man who grew up in PA forests and on it's lakes,

Name
Email
Phone number

I also started a thread in Team and one of them members suggested including Missouris statutes for reference. If any of y'all are willing to send a letter I can get you that info.

I am surprised and pleased that the legislature has given the green light to semi auto's for hunting.
The PCG on the other hand will absolutely fuck this up.

PCG is the typically Pa. fudd-run organization of blue-law tradition, corruption and bureaucratic overreach.  
I don't expect to be hunting deer with a semiauto for at least a couple years. The fudds will have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

To get an idea of just how fudd the state is, check out the milquetoast web site huntingpa.com.
There is a metric fuckton of control freak fudds living there and a great example of why the Pa. game code has prohibited semiauto weapons for hunting since 1907.

I spent 10 days in the field this last deer season with a manually operated FAL and a 20 round mag on board.
I got numerous stink eye from the encountered fudds. It's satisfying to send their blood pressure up a few notches.
Most of them are so morbidly obese they need a quad and lots of help to bring out a deer.

Sooo has anyone seen the agenda for the Game Commission meeting next week?

Looks like semi auto center fire is a go for all game hunting next year. They're bringing it up for discussion.

5 round mag limit plus one in the tube. I'm ok with this, it could be worse.

http://www.pgc.pa.gov/InformationResources/MediaReportsSurveys/Documents/2017%20January%20Agenda.pdf

I was thinking about the changes this morning after my mag limiters arrived. I'm going to read over it now to see if they are allowing 223/556.

ETA No restriction mentioned in there.

5 round mags are $11 from Brownells

I have four new Remington brand I paid about $7 each, two colt that are 20rd length I paid about $10 each and now I have six 5rd limiters for 10rd PMAGs all for 556. I also have a couple 5rd for my Grendels but will be getting more of those.

Sounds like you're set. I have a couple 10rda I might block off but I'm really just deciding if I should finish a MK12 build now or start a .308...

AR's are already heavy so I'd go with a MK12 over a 308. Use a bullet like 70gr TSX and it'll slay any whitetail. If you're a bear hunter a 308 would come into play.

I built side charging AR's before I left PA with the intent of a deer rifle. Work in ND pulled me away before I got a chance to use them. Now I can still use them but leave the gas system in place when I move back.  

Get a grendel upper  if you torn between 556/762 for deer.  I plan on using grendel or my 6.5BRX wildcat.  More likely grendel though.  My wildcat uses Lapua 6br brass.

When he mentioned MK12 my mind went to 6.8. That would have been a good choice but I've got two Grendel's itching for blood.

I like the compact performance I get with grendel out of an 18" barrel.  My 700 BDL .270 was overkill and felt huge with a 22 or 24" barrel after I got used to AR sized rifles.  I doubt I'll get a kill, I hardly got out this season, and the only deer I saw were from my car and not with a rifle in my hand.  Makes me want to get a crossbow......

Eh?



Just so I'm not being a dummy, this PDF is saying that the PGC has already agreed to allow hunting with semi-auto rifles?  If so does that apply to the fall 2017 deer season, or will their use have to wait until 2018?

This PDF includes the proposed changes. They have not been implemented yet. They are having more discussions and will hopefully update the game code with what we are seeing. I think it's as close to perfect as one of us could hope for considering what the currents rules restrict hunters to.

ETA I just realized you thought I meant capacity. I was referring to bullet diameter.

ETA2 FYI, the underlined parts are the proposed changes. Everything else is current code.

Thanks

You're right, I was thinking mag-capacity, not bullet-size.  This seems promising, hopefully it goes through so I have an excuse to build another AR15

It passed!! https://timesleader.com/news/630480/game-commission-approves-measure-to-allow-semi-automatic-rifles-for-hunting

Sunset provision ends it in 2020 to review the change but this will allow even big game to be hunted right now!!

"Most of the objections were from senior hunters..." Color me surprised.

I am more than pleased the GC didn't fuck this up. We are slowly making moves in the correct direction. I look forward to taking an AR platform out next year.

Gas tube is going on my 6.5 BRX.  I made it a manual bolt upper essentially.  Sweet.

Sounds like my two 6.5G and a 556. MDIGA!!!

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Never mind. Google told me what I needed to know.

This is awesome!!! Ive had a lower in my basement for a couple months not waiting to see what happened with this before I built it. Hunting AR it is, now just have to decide on which caliber!

So assuming this gets approved again at the meeting or whatever in March, will semi-auto be allowed for the fall 2017 season?  Because if I have to wait until 2018 I'm going to buy another 1911 this year instead of building an AR to hunt with

There's nothing to approve in march. It's on for the 2017-2018 season starting in July.

I'm genuinely shocked (in a good way) over this development. I thought at best we'd see an ok on rim fires coming out of the gate and that center fires wouldn't see consideration for at least a few years.

 

I am more Excited about this for varmint hunting than deer.  
Now after a long absense of not going out late summer afternoons for groundhogs, I will have to take one of my ARs out there

And thus 2/1/2017 will go down as the day of triggering for the fudds of PA and faux outraged non hunters.  I swear most of the negative comments either aren't hunters, say they are but have never actually gone out, or people who haven't been out in 20 years.  And while I would not hunt deer with .223 or encourage others to do so, I think it's funny how many making that argument ignore that by their logic, .223/.222 out of a bolt action is perfectly adequate and fine.  Besides, I don't know of many people who hunt deer with .223 anyway.

I feel the same way about the 5.56 AR platform for varmints -- it will be cool to use them for something other than paper punching; 10/22s for that matter also.

As for bigger game, I won't necessarily be running out to invest in a 6.5/6.8/.300/.308 AR platform anytime soon. Although, a new toy is a new toy