No, we're not.

 

You going to pay for a lot of advanced training with tac gear for your average patrol LEO?
Should police rifle programs get more in-depth?
Sure. I see it all the time on the range.
I cringe and the lack of intimate familiarity with any of their firearms that many LEOs display.
Once again, you gonna pay for it?
I understand that I lived with my M4 24/7 in a way that my fellow non-prior service LEOs have not

As far as movement techniques, your average LEOs get almost no move and shoot drills at all in  their training on the range. Too much liability.
We do build move and shoots as individual officers on the live fire range, and the sims weeks almost always have some form of multiple officer active shooter scenarios.
We skipped it this year because we had some scenarios we thought were more critical

It all comes down to dollars and cents
The military trains within the limits of its budget and environment for combat
Your typical police officer will never draw their weapon in anger over the course of their career and many admins are in denial that it would ever happen in their area
The taxpayers aren't willing to fund LE to that level.
For that matter there are many liberals who aren't willing to fund the military to that level but that's a  discussion for another thread
edit:
I didn't watch the Fergusson coverage religiously over the many months, so I am not sure what coverage you saw where officers were doing rushes
I saw video where they were grouped on the streets and moving crowds.
After the first riots the local gov't there hyped the fact that hundreds of officers had each gotten 4 hrs of training

Now by comparison, after the LA riots my Guard unit for a while did an annual civil defense weekend for several years in the early 90s.
After about 1997 we did none at all.
So I'm guessing that if my old unit was called up now for civil defense duties and with all of us old guys retired, they'd probably do about as well as the Fergusson officers did in terms of controlling and moving crowds

Interesting. I had assumed that patrolmen got at least some move and shoot training in the academy.  Didn't realize it was basically nil.

And obviously I'm not a fan of taxes (hence my move to warm sunny Cleveland OH in 17 days 13 hours and 5 minutes ...but who's counting) but I do believe the appropriation of funds could be found by getting rid of much other useless programs and giving the guy with a badge some pretty basic tactical movement courses!

Either way, at the end of the day I get along with policemen, but as for the majority of them.... i really can't say I'd be too thrilled about asking them to cover me in a live fire exercise. .. get what I'm saying?

Those programs have their own supporters
You'll never get rid of any program
The basic schools firearms block of training is all about learning how to shoot and hit what you're aiming at
There might be a bit of "move to cover" but it's in the context of a rectangular range and every recruit on the line moving to their own barrel or sheet of plywood cover that's next to them. A bunch of rookies moving randomly across a range seeking cover and backing each other up is not going to happen.
Once again, that liability thing rears it's head

I have seriously been looking into Indianapolis. Taxes and cost of living is low and my wife can transfer.

Re: at the range... just pause every 10 rounds.  

And also the Colts. .. don't forget that.

Don't we do this in the .mil (rookies or grunts)?

But then again we are usually told we aren't worth much...

I guess in the end, none of this is going to matter anyway.  I'd rather be carried by six, than cuffed by one.

Moving forward of some line on a live fire range in the mil?
Ah, I did it exactly ONCE, other than that time in basic where they have you crawling through the wire while the live fire is going over your head
Maybe we are envisioning different types of training...usually in the mil if you set your foot forward of the firing line on any range while shooting is underway the shooting comes to an immediate halt

When I hear shots in the distance I count lol. Tell me you guys don't.

Ok yeah way off there.  I meant live fire training in MSST school.  Same as Marine Infantry school (well kinda ... it's at Lejeune. .. or at least it was). No experience in combat and next thing you are just mashing down field...

Yeah life was just easier.... never thought I'd say that!

I can only count to 10, then my brain resets.  Happens when I load mags, too.  



 

My first hand account, believe me or do not believe me.  I was told last week that one of the benefits of being a local law enforcement officer was that this person could get as much ammunition as they wanted and that this person had access to large amounts of ammunition.  I am not saying that someone else told me that a local officer said this, I am saying the officer said it in my presence.  I am not implying or saying that this person was misusing those resources, I am stating what was said directly to me.

While legal, I wouldn't complete the sale. What's good for the citizens is good for the cops.

Agencies still have budgets, and part of that budget is ammunition.
With local governments being told to cut back, part of those cuts are ammunition.
In recent years we've had to scale way back on the numbers of rounds fired at the range simply because the budget isn't there to buy enough ammo.
We've always ordered two years out for the last decade-plus, but between budget cut backs and ammo delivery lags, we're lucky to get in 250 rounds per officer per 8 hour session, and that's handgun rifle and shotgun combined.
When I started 27 years ago the dept ammunition budget was ( I was told at the time ) $1000. No rifles back then, shotguns were kept at the office and issued as needed, we carried revolvers, trained with reloads and qualified on our old duty ammo and were issued new duty ammo at the end of the day.
You were issued wadcutters for putting injured deer down and if you put a deer down you had to being the expended brass to be issued new rounds.

Do some departments issue more training ammo than others? I am sure they do.
My old PT dept came to me about 20 years ago right after I became an FFL because they got to their range date and realized they had no training ammo on the shelf.
My current PT agency came to me for ammo last year...before I was with them... because they got to their range date and the only 5.56 they had for the entire agency was in their one rifle.
Yup, exactly one mags worth of ammo.
It's changed there now, but that's how tight agencies are with budgets.

People who complain here about asset forfeiture and gov't hand-outs from the Feds and that sort of thing don't realize WHY those programs became so popular for agencies. It was the only way they could afford gear

Three pages of discussion of LEO privileges vs citizens (subjects) rights and it all could have been summed up with.... "Friends don't let friends buy Pro Mag magazines".

I'll go back and read the whole thing later when I have time, but fuck it, the man stood up and spoke his convictions....

Sell him the mags, he's a good guy, and we certainly need every good guy we can get on our side.

If he was a JBT and rubbed his hands in glee at the thought of every SAFE act arrest, then I would certainly say fuck him...

But that's not the case (assuming he is being genuine), we need to embrace our friends, and piss on our enemies (and when the time comes, if it does, much, much more...)

I happily sell you mags...if I could own any....

This man offers insight.

Most agencies give new hires about 2 weeks firearms training.  That's from 0 knowledge to competent to pass the shooting qualification.  When I went through basic at Parris Island it was about the same other than a lot of the nomenclature and maintenance class training was before the 2 weeks on the range.   The tactical movement stuff was a separate block at that time.   I understand it's much improved since my time in the late 80's.  

I can't say there is a lot of thought put into police shoot and move training but it is getting better.  In the old days I remember discussing the difference between cover and concealment and on the range instructors telling you to use your cover.  They also discussed where you might find what little cover was available on cars, pretty much your engine block and little else.  

Movement in the old days was very limited on the range.  You did what you could do with a dozen guys on a line or you really slowed things down and did one guy at a time shooting and moving.  They were/and are very aware of the potential for mishaps.  Always have to think of your lowest common denominator.    The idgit that will turn around with a loaded shotgun and sweep the shooters waiting for their turn.   There seems to always be one who couldn't find a clue in the clue closet.

Hell my shoot and move in the infantry in the old days wasn't that great.  In the 80's we did it mostly with blanks, very little live fire lane training.  I was a machine gunner and was often on our own range doing our own thing so I could have missed a lot of what the basic 11's did.   We did mostly cover fire from bipod and tripod but did a little assaulting with the mg.   Hip and shoulder fire with the M60.   In those days we were a military that hadn't had much war in a long time.  The pendulum was swung way towards safety and away from realistic/useful training.  God forbid you f some O's career up with a range training accident.

I spent a lot of time as a civilian at Ft. Drum in the last decade.   The current .mil training on live fire ranges is way above what we did in the 80's for your basic trigger puller.  Much better lane training, convoy live fire, and better facilities for MOUT.    I am pretty sure that's only due to we were now in a hot war.  The old stale peacetime training needed to be unshackled and developed into a realistic training level again.  

Just as the .mil training changes so does the police training but there is no/little extra money to do it.  A little more thought had gone into it in some more forward thinking agencies.  Does that make it militarization of police.  Maybe in some ways.  In the old days you shot your revolver and you put your empty brass in your pocket as part of your reload.  Now they train for the traffic stop gone bad, domestics gone bad, and the all new mass shootings.  

You arfcommers out there discuss what you would do in that situation.  So what makes you think the police shouldn't consider what they might need to do if that nasty lightning bolt struck their town?   You'd be mad if they didn't consider it.   Odds are most police will never have draw their firearm off of the range but there is no guarantee of that.  

This is not a perfect world, never was and never will be.
 

Oh and another huge difference in .mil and police.  The .mil has a long training period, a long deployment, followed by less intense training period when they get home.  
The police have 5-6 months of training when they start their career.  Thereafter they get a couple range days a year, a few classes to keep up certifications on radar, DWI, and a few days other training.  Probably less than 10-12 work days of training a year.    That's a huge difference between the .mil and the police in the ratio of real field work to training.  (I'm not saying the jobs are comparable or the pucker factors are the same, they're not the same job, the similarity ends with both carry firearms).

Some agencies have more money than others.  I know of one agency that has open blocks for sign up range time where they provide the ammo.  This is above the agency minimum range time.   Of course the swat type response teams are going to get more range time.  Or at least they damn well better be getting some extra training in my opinion.

He's very misguided

Iighten up Francis...........people have a right to be pissed.........do you not understand their frustration?

Have bigger shoulders..........no matter how much shit I have to hear, I will still be their ally.........I will still be winning hearts and minds behind the scenes amongst LEOs and keep them focused on who they serve......I will be the voice they don't even know is there........and if the shit ever really goes full retard.......I will stand to their left and to their right

They are not privy to what goes on behind the scenes.....the conversations at shift briefings......the calls/contacts where we have turned a blind eye.......shook people hands and gave them our word on the side of the road........

I can go on......

On the flip side of that, NY's gun-owning citizens didn't write that law and make themselves felons. It was pushed on us by corrupt, crooked assholes like Silver who are themselves, criminals.

Criminals writing laws. What a fucked up scenario,

The law is fucking stupid, but the LEO is exempt. Hopefully he's the kind of guy who exercises discretion on the side of gun owners.

Already has.  



 

More evidence of things already going full retard.



 

Now see what you did here OP. Proud of yourself huh.

Don't blame him, he just asked for a simple Yes or No answer. It's the residents that felt compelled to voice their opinions that started this mess..

Common folks should never speak badly of the kings men.

There is a big flaw in your argument.
Cops get trained, then they go out and do the job every day for 20-30 years.

No soldier is in combat for 20 years. Some do more than one deployment, when not deployed they are not in combat. Many vets served at a time when there was no combat at all.

Your comparison is not logical.

There is absolutely no problem with questioning authority, and quite often it is much needed. But in this case, I do not think the OP was looking for unsolicited opinions, but rather just a simple yes or no as it pertains to the law, not the unjustness of said law..

Done

Oh for fucks sake...

Phew.

Ask the guys that sleep with an M4 in their sleeping bag how comfortable they are with the weapon. 1 year of "must have a weapon on you at all times" makes a pretty good relationship with a weapon.

I'm not entering the soldier vs. Cop arguement.

There are a good number of LEOs who were right there with you in the sand

Done

I think you are both saying the same thing, that the two jobs are not comparable. There are similarities, but not the same.

Done

My attempt at sarcasm.

For fucks sake would somebody PLEASE shut this dumb shit down, enough is enough already!

I can't enter this debate, I've got a mouth full of pmags I'm choking on.

In between sips of free

Oh man you got me...

lol,  no shit, I thought I was saying that.  There are only so many similarities.

though I may be Illogical.

Officers do the routine stuff of LE day in and day out
They don't train or do the more tactical stuff that's being criticized in this thread on a routine basis
The Soldier may do a deployment or two but their non-deployed time is still spent doing a lot of tactical training ( assuming combat arms ) that prepares them for that combat theatre

I am glad he edited that and I am glad you quoted it for posterity before he did

A letter from his Chief authorizing him to purchase , otherwise no go

Good luck with that.. we have multiple departments in NY that rank among the largest in the country. Guys have gone whole careers without ever meeting a chief let alone actually get a letter from him or arrange a meeting with him. Not everyone works in a 12 man dept..

Something that hasn't been required since the Federal ban lapsed.
Try harder

I can feel the irrational hate through my monitor