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Posted: 8/30/2021 8:29:26 PM EDT
An hour long video, new to me info. I'm curious what some opinions are. WW II isn't my area.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxZWxxZ2JGE |
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Posted: 8/30/2021 8:32:41 PM EDT
[#1]
The generals were unleashed to win the battles and war.
Not hand cuffed like today. |
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Posted: 8/30/2021 8:40:55 PM EDT
[#2]
Lack of presidential oversight, no leftist ingrained reporters, and a mindset that the opposing forces had the choice to either capitulate or face annihilation.
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Posted: 8/30/2021 8:41:17 PM EDT
[#3]
A general in WWII ran his army like emperor running his legion. He conquered.. and destroyed and he killed to win an objective quickly, with the greatest damage to the enemy, and the least amount of death to his own (in some cases not so much..).
A general today is a congressman or corporate CEO is waiting, grooming himself for a career of political corruption, and uses his military service to situate himself "after" he leaves the service. The war is a means to his political end. |
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Posted: 8/30/2021 8:57:01 PM EDT
[#4]
Did they mention Gen Curtis LeMay?
I bet they did. |
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Posted: 8/30/2021 9:07:25 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JPK: The generals were unleashed to win the battles and war. Not hand cuffed like today. FPNI |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 8/30/2021 9:52:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Vane]
[#6]
The truth of that answer is biological, men back then had Testosterone levels three times that of the men today have
Men with higher T levels take more risks, and the opposite is also true, men with Low T won’t take any risks or very minimal ones If you put every General and fighting man in the US Military on TRT right now…..by 2023 we would own both Europe and South America outright. China would be sending us goods for free. TRT would also solve all of these domestic issues at home too |
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Posted: 8/30/2021 9:56:24 PM EDT
[#7]
The rise of professionalism and the adoption of a professional military education system is why we no longer win wars.
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Posted: 8/30/2021 9:59:27 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KILLERB6: Did they mention Gen Curtis LeMay? I bet they did. No. Just ground forces. |
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Posted: 8/31/2021 12:10:21 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R0N: The rise of professionalism and the adoption of a professional military education system is why we no longer win wars. Can you elaborate on this? I'd really like your perspective (and I hope my posts didn't chase you away from the other thread). |
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Posted: 8/31/2021 12:17:42 AM EDT
[#10]
Just watched a documentary on Patton. He said Ike, Bradly and Montgumary got more people killed by bad decisions than anybody realized. We helped win the war and then gave most of Europe to Stalin. He was planning on exposing all this and was killed because of it or that was the suspicion.
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Posted: 8/31/2021 12:23:39 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By IdahoDoug: Just watched a documentary on Patton. He said Ike, Bradly and Montgumary got more people killed by bad decisions than anybody realized. We helped win the war and then gave most of Europe to Stalin. He was planning on exposing all this and was killed because of it or that was the suspicion. Patton was a mediocre general in most cases except one: pursuit, a mission at which he was the Army’s best. By the end his temperament was poor, probably as a result of TBIs. He once lost most of a battalion trying to free his son in law from a POW camp. An amazing man but let’s stick to facts. |
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Posted: 8/31/2021 10:59:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: R0N]
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HIMARS13A: Can you elaborate on this? I'd really like your perspective (and I hope my posts didn't chase you away from the other thread). The education received at Top and lesser extent our Intermediate Level School system not only focused on the wrong things but also taught by the same woke professors you will see on most campuses in in the US. Which often leads perfectly sane people going in converting over the year to the wokesters we are all worried about. Additionally not only are they just a check in the block but waste a productive year or more at each level that should be spent in the attendee's craft Too many officers want to focus on being strategists and not on being good at their craft, woke officer twitter is just chocked-full of officers asking what they should read to a strategist but it becomes an echo chamber of the blind leading the blind. |
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Posted: 8/31/2021 1:48:24 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Patton was a mediocre general in most cases except one: pursuit, a mission at which he was the Army’s best. By the end his temperament was poor, probably as a result of TBIs. He once lost most of a battalion trying to free his son in law from a POW camp. An amazing man but let’s stick to facts. That was mentioned that Ike only kept Patton around because he guessed they would be chasing the Germany Army across Europe. |
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Posted: 8/31/2021 2:11:42 PM EDT
[#14]
And he was right.
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Posted: 8/31/2021 4:11:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: HIMARS13A]
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R0N: The education received at Top and lesser extent our Intermediate Level School system not only focused on the wrong things but also taught by the same woke professors you will see on most campuses in in the US. Which often leads perfectly sane people going in converting over the year to the wokesters we are all worried about. Additionally not only are they just a check in the block but waste a productive year or more at each level that should be spent in the attendee's craft Too many officers want to focus on being strategists and not on being good at their craft, woke officer twitter is just chocked-full of officers asking what they should read to a strategist but it becomes an echo chamber of the blind leading the blind. In 2012 I was at NTC and my BDE CDR was visiting. I was in a FiB that had two MLRS BNs. I remember asking the boss was I supposed to be an expert in unit operations, or an expert in a broader range of things. He talked a bunch and I don't remember what he said, but it wasn't an answer. So I've gone back to how things were run pre-WWII, because I know two things. One, we had a generation of officers that understood their craft and had decades of experience doing it, and two, that generation also produced fine strategists that performed admirably during WWII. I never got any PME beyond artillery OBC, so frankly I don't know what happens there, but I will relate a story. One of my BN S3s was just out of ILE and SAMS. I'm sure you're familiar with SAMS, but for the benefit of the group it's a planning school that's supposed to be for the best and brightest. Under this particular S3 we went to the field to shoot rockets (annual qualification and crew certification) without a written order, because he thought something that routine didn't require any planning. The results were predictable, but to his credit the BN CDR got on the hook and called all the audibles required to get through the exercise. |
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Posted: 8/31/2021 4:57:17 PM EDT
[#16]
I am surprised a SAMs grad was sent to BDE, all ours are sent to the MEF/MARFORs and HQMC to be lead OPT planners in the G5s
I actually believe SAW/SAM etc should be one of the only PME course out there, we need trained planners but those courses and the Naval Postgrad and it's other service equivalents should be what the school boards should select people for, not to send ever Maj and post command LtCol to get a master or third in strategy or international relations. |
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Posted: 8/31/2021 5:10:24 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R0N: I am surprised a SAMs grad was sent to BDE, all ours are sent to the MEF/MARFORs and HQMC to be lead OPT planners in the G5s I actually believe SAW/SAM etc should be one of the only PME course out there, we need trained planners but those courses and the Naval Postgrad and it's other service equivalents should be what the school boards should select people for, not to send ever Maj and post command LtCol to get a master or third in strategy or international relations. He was at BN level to get KD credit for an S3 position. It was a huge step down for him but that's how the Army operates. He's the only SAMS grad I've ever met. A bunch of my old classmates did masters degrees even though I'm not sure that matters much for an artilleryman... |
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Posted: 8/31/2021 5:13:30 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HIMARS13A: He was at BN level to get KD credit for an S3 position. It was a huge step down for him but that's how the Army operates. He's the only SAMS grad I've ever met. A bunch of my old classmates did masters degrees even though I'm not sure that matters much for an artilleryman... Missed he was a BN 3, that is even more messed up like sending a brain surgeon to be a kinder garden to be a nurse. |
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Posted: 8/31/2021 5:18:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: HIMARS13A]
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R0N: Missed he was a BN 3, that is even more messed up like sending a brain surgeon to be a kinder garden to be a nurse. He didn't want to be there and he made that very well known. |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 3/30/2022 12:35:08 PM EDT
[#20]
They used to teach leadership in the academies and schools, today they teach management so they can be managers of Wal-marts or sit on cooperate boards when they retire or get out. Most of the senior generals and admirals were picked by the Obama admin too. The others have been weeded out.
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ND, USA
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Posted: 3/9/2023 5:28:34 PM EDT
[#21]
because they wanted to win in ww2. Not in Korea or Vietnam
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ND, USA
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Posted: 3/9/2023 5:40:19 PM EDT
[#22]
because they wanted to win in ww2. Not in Korea or Vietnam
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 3/9/2023 5:44:23 PM EDT
[#23]
Easy...media wasn't involved.
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Posted: 3/9/2023 5:52:50 PM EDT
[#24]
Baseball was the National Sport in WWII, not football.
There was no United Nations in WWII. |
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FRA
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Posted: 7/8/2023 12:15:20 PM EDT
[#25]
Coming late to this party, but another reason was a division commander in WWII was expected to get results. If he didn't, the top general in the Army was going to fire his ass and put in somebody new.
By modern standards, George C. Marshall would be a toxic leader. He was probably the best wartime Chief the Army ever had. Post WWII, there was a lot of battlefield incompetence, but not a lot of high-ranking leaders got relieved for battlefield performance. With the way the GWOT was run, a leader just had to keep things on the rails for the length of their rotation. Then they'd rotate out, get their medal, and somebody else would show up to take over. As mentioned above, the officer PME is not great. I've experienced the gamut of military PME. The goal is to teach students how the DoD enterprise works and to provide networking opportunities. It does not really teach students how to fight and win wars. |
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Posted: 7/10/2023 9:05:45 PM EDT
[#26]
I watch as many Korean War documentaries as I can. I have several books on the conflict as well.
I'm currently watching the History Channel's 'The Korean War: Fire and Ice', and it discusses in a fair amount of detail how cautious the U.S. was, and how MacArthur was more concerned about symbolic events than destroying the fleeing North Koreans. |
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Posted: 7/10/2023 9:09:17 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sharkman6: ...As mentioned above, the officer PME is not great. I've experienced the gamut of military PME. The goal is to teach students how the DoD enterprise works and to provide networking opportunities. It does not really teach students how to fight and win wars. I remember how hard we were being pressed to study JPME. It was becoming an advancement requirement. I signed up for it and received several books for a study-at-home program. What a joke. |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 8/21/2023 8:47:05 PM EDT
[#28]
No TL:DR on the video? You shouldn't post any links in a forum without a brief rundown of what it consists of.
If you were to ask me, my opinion is similar to others expressed here. As comms got better, leaders were able to get instructions from politicians and bureaucrats overseas which don't understand tactics, strategy, or the situation, so they'll hampered from making battlefield decisions. Soon, nothing makes sense. Can't neuter the generals like that. |
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Posted: 8/21/2023 9:45:33 PM EDT
[#29]
The same generals assured us we were always one fighting season from victory in Afghanistan. Fuck ‘em.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 8/29/2023 4:09:46 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 50-140: Lack of presidential oversight, no leftist ingrained reporters, and a mindset that the opposing forces had the choice to either capitulate or face annihilation. Japan fought a skirmish with the Soviet Union in Mongolia in the late 30's. Germany invaded the Soviet Union after they had divided up Poland between them. Higher education and the press were already super-leftist - so the American Press and the universities from which they sprang were all rah-rah for aggressive prosecution of war with Japan and Germany. The following conflicts were AGAINST, rather than alongside of, the Communists, and thus the protests on campus, the outright propaganda of the major networks (looking at you, Walter Cronkite ....), support for running off to Canada,... |
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Posted: 8/29/2023 4:11:50 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 50-140: Lack of presidential oversight, no leftist ingrained reporters, and a mindset that the opposing forces had the choice to either capitulate or face annihilation. None of this is correct. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 8/29/2023 4:11:53 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Patton was a mediocre general in most cases except one: pursuit, a mission at which he was the Army’s best. By the end his temperament was poor, probably as a result of TBIs. He once lost most of a battalion trying to free his son in law from a POW camp. An amazing man but let’s stick to facts. Bullpucky. Re-directing his axis of advance and blunting the Bulge was the work of a master, and was not a "pursuit". |
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Posted: 8/29/2023 4:12:04 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R0N: The rise of professionalism and the adoption of a professional military education system is why we no longer win wars. Thank you. |
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Posted: 8/29/2023 4:13:25 PM EDT
[#34]
Tom Ricks can suck a battalion of dicks. Just in case you see this, Tom.
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Posted: 8/29/2023 4:14:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Screechjet1]
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R0N: I am surprised a SAMs grad was sent to BDE, all ours are sent to the MEF/MARFORs and HQMC to be lead OPT planners in the G5s I actually believe SAW/SAM etc should be one of the only PME course out there, we need trained planners but those courses and the Naval Postgrad and it's other service equivalents should be what the school boards should select people for, not to send ever Maj and post command LtCol to get a master or third in strategy or international relations. Frankly, I think those strategists are overrated and should exist in the Reserve as a mobilization capability. EtA: The idea of a full time military officer being a "strategist" is pretty fucking aspirational. |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 3/8/2024 2:11:08 AM EDT
[#36]
Look at all the GI's and Filipinos that got killed so the blood thirsty MacArthur could have his moment. It might not be a bad thing that they have to respect the lives of the enlisted, and answer for their actions.
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KY, USA
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Posted: 6/17/2024 7:36:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JMD]
[#37]
Ridgeway was a very successful general in Korea. He pushed the Chinese and North Koreans back across the 38th parallel and was prepared to keep going but Truman had become skittish and did not want a wider war
So Ridgeway was restrained by the President |
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