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Posted: 3/29/2024 10:47:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: BullpupFan]
If Capitol Armory and Silencer Central can ship suppressors to my door from an in-state FFL, why not do the same for Title I stuff?
ETA: Answered by D_Man's post #10 below - NFA items have a special exemption...

With Kolorado's new waiting period and being out of town a lot, this might actually be quicker for me than trying to make 2 trips to my transfer dealer...


ETA for those living under rocks, Welcome to 2020-something
https://www.silencercentral.com/services/direct-shipping/
https://www.capitolarmory.com/blog/direct-to-your-door-nationwide-shipping.html
Link Posted: 3/29/2024 10:59:04 AM EDT
[#1]
This is the first I have ever heard of shipping a suppressor to the purchaser
Link Posted: 3/29/2024 11:00:24 AM EDT
[#2]
Link Posted: 3/29/2024 11:01:03 AM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By _Matt_:
This is the first I have ever heard of shipping a suppressor to the purchaser
View Quote

Welcome to 2020-something
https://www.silencercentral.com/services/direct-shipping/
https://www.capitolarmory.com/blog/direct-to-your-door-nationwide-shipping.html
Link Posted: 3/29/2024 11:04:55 AM EDT
[#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Heartbreaker1373:


Yeah no shit lol

Other than for warranty repair, or c&r guns shipped to a c&r FFL holder, never heard of that
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Originally Posted By Heartbreaker1373:
Originally Posted By _Matt_:
This is the first I have ever heard of shipping a suppressor to the purchaser


Yeah no shit lol

Other than for warranty repair, or c&r guns shipped to a c&r FFL holder, never heard of that

IIRC the way it works is you buy through a dealer or manufacturer licensed in your state, they submit your form 4.

Now it's "yours", so once the form 4 is approved it's no different than if you had shipped it for repair.

The shipping process adds time to your acquisition,  so the current 2-10 day form 4s take 2 or 3 times as long if you go with the shipping option.
Link Posted: 3/29/2024 11:19:35 AM EDT
[#5]
Because the federal law requires a background check be completed at the time of delivery.  Form 4 = Background Check completed at the time of delivery.

IIRC, the CMP is empowered to accept and process Form 4473 prior to delivery via mail, but that may have changed.
Link Posted: 3/29/2024 11:28:11 AM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AllserviceBilliards:
Because the federal law requires a background check be completed at the time of delivery.  Form 4 = Background Check completed at the time of delivery.
View Quote

So submit my background check for the Title I gun... after that it's the same, right? 4473 completed, sent to CLEO, waiting period, item shipped to your door...
Link Posted: 3/29/2024 11:30:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: bradpierson26] [#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Heartbreaker1373:


Yeah no shit lol

Other than for warranty repair, or c&r guns shipped to a c&r FFL holder, never heard of that
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Heartbreaker1373:
Originally Posted By _Matt_:
This is the first I have ever heard of shipping a suppressor to the purchaser


Yeah no shit lol

Other than for warranty repair, or c&r guns shipped to a c&r FFL holder, never heard of that

The future is now, old men
Welcome to my thread
Link Posted: 3/29/2024 11:33:05 AM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AllserviceBilliards:
Because the federal law requires a background check be completed at the time of delivery.  Form 4 = Background Check completed at the time of delivery.

IIRC, the CMP is empowered to accept and process Form 4473 prior to delivery via mail, but that may have changed.
View Quote

CMP did not process a 4473 on their transfers out to the end user.  at least they didnt when it was just rifles, not sure if anything changed now that they have the 1911 sales.
Link Posted: 3/29/2024 11:42:04 AM EDT
[#9]
I had it done through CMP years ago.
Link Posted: 3/29/2024 11:47:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: D_Man] [#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BullpupFan:

So submit my background check for the Title I gun... after that it's the same, right? 4473 completed, sent to CLEO, waiting period, item shipped to your door...
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Originally Posted By BullpupFan:

So submit my background check for the Title I gun... after that it's the same, right? 4473 completed, sent to CLEO, waiting period, item shipped to your door...

Title I guns are bound by the "Brady Law", requiring the FFL transferring the firearm to conduct the NICS check.  There is an exception to the Brady Law for NFA firearms, because the ATF does the check, not the transferring FFL:

27 CFR   478.102 - Sales or deliveries of firearms on and after November 30, 1998.

 478.102 Sales or deliveries of firearms on and after November 30, 1998.
(a) Background check. Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer (the licensee) shall not sell, deliver, or transfer a firearm to any other person who is not licensed under this part unless the licensee meets the following requirements:

...


(d) Exceptions to NICS check. The provisions of paragraph (a) of this section shall not apply if

...

(2) The firearm is subject to the provisions of the National Firearms Act and has been approved for transfer under 27 CFR part 479; or

There is a provision that allows for mail-order sales only for firearms that are exempt from 27 CFR 478.102(a) above.  Silencers meet that exemption because the transfering dealer is not required to conduct the NICS check, it was already done by the ATF in the approval process.

27 CFR   478.96 - Out-of-State and mail order sales.

 478.96 Out-of-State and mail order sales.
(a) The provisions of this section shall apply when a firearm is purchased by or delivered to a person not otherwise prohibited by the Act from purchasing or receiving it.

(b) A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer may sell a firearm that is not subject to the provisions of   478.102(a) to a nonlicensee who does not appear in person at the licensee's business premises if the nonlicensee is a resident of the same State in which the licensee's business premises are located, and the nonlicensee furnishes to the licensee the firearms transaction record, Form 4473, required by   478.124. The nonlicensee shall attach to such record a true copy of any permit or other information required pursuant to any statute of the State and published ordinance applicable to the locality in which he resides. The licensee shall prior to shipment or delivery of the firearm, forward by registered or certified mail (return receipt requested) a copy of the record, Form 4473, to the chief law enforcement officer named on such record, and delay shipment or delivery of the firearm for a period of at least 7 days following receipt by the licensee of the return receipt evidencing delivery of the copy of the record to such chief law enforcement officer, or the return of the copy of the record to him due to the refusal of such chief law enforcement officer to accept same in accordance with U.S. Postal Service regulations. The original Form 4473, and evidence of receipt or rejection of delivery of the copy of the Form 4473 sent to the chief law enforcement officer shall be retained by the licensee as a part of the records required of him to be kept under the provisions of subpart H of this part.


So if you want to do as you propose OP, we would have to change the law and make all Title 1 firearms registered NFA firearms...
Link Posted: 3/29/2024 11:57:32 AM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By D_Man:

Title I guns are bound by the "Brady Law", requiring the FFL transferring the firearm to conduct the NICS check.  There is an exception to the Brady Law for NFA firearms, because the ATF does the check, not the transferring FFL:


There is a provision that allows for mail-order sales only for firearms that are exempt from 27 CFR 478.102(a) above.  Silencers meet that exemption because the transfering dealer is not required to conduct the NICS check, it was already done by the ATF in the approval process.


So if you want to do as you propose OP, we would have to change the law and make all Title 1 firearms registered NFA firearms...
View Quote

Gotcha, thanks!  I didn't realize/remember that NFA items had a special callout in the law.
Definitely NOT proposing we change anything, just asking why - which you answered, thanks!
Link Posted: 3/29/2024 12:00:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: DogtownTom] [#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bradpierson26:

The future is now, old men
Welcome to my thread
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Originally Posted By bradpierson26:

The future is now, old men
Welcome to my thread

The future was like a decade ago. Wait.........MORE than a decade ago. The below procedure is current. but it replaced a previous Procedure from 2013 that replaced a Form 4473 that was for such "non over the counter" transactions. So its likely been allowed for several decades.
"Non over the counter" sales have been a thing for over a decade. Silencer Central and Capital Armory didn't invent it and back when Silencer Shop was a retailer, they were using it for Texas residents........... a decade ago.

Current Recordkeeping procedure for non-over-the-counter firearm sales by licensees to unlicensed in-state residents that are NICS exempt.
ATF Proc. 2020-1
Recordkeeping procedure for non-over-the-counter firearm sales by licensees to unlicensed
in-state residents that are NICS exempt.


18 U.S.C. 922(c): NON-OVER-THE-COUNTER SALES OF FIREARMS
18 U.S.C. 922(t): NICS REQUIREMENTS AND EXCEPTIONS
27 CFR 478.96: MAIL ORDER SALES OF FIREARMS (IN-STATE, NICS EXEMPT)
27 CFR 478.102:
27 CFR 478.124:NICS REQUIREMENTS AND EXCEPTIONS FIREARMS TRANSACTION RECORD

Purpose: This Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) procedure gives
guidance to licensed importers, manufacturers, and dealers (licensees) on how to complete the
Firearms Transaction Record, ATF Form 4473 (Form 4473), as revised effective May, 2020, and
record the sale of a firearm, when selling to an unlicensed person who:
a) Has a valid alternate permit or otherwise is exempt from National Instant Criminal
Background Check System (NICS) requirements;
b) Resides in the same State as the licensee; and
c) Does not appear in person at the licensee's business premises.

Background: Title 18, United States Code (U.S.C.), section 922(c)(1), states that, in any case not
otherwise prohibited by 18 U.S.C. chapter 44, a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or
licensed dealer may sell a firearm to a person who does not appear in person at the licensee's
business premises (other than another licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer) only if the
transferee submits to the transferor a sworn statement in the following form:

Subject to penalties provided by law, I swear that, in the case of any firearm other than a
shotgun or a rifle, I am twenty-one years or more of age, or that, in the case of a shotgun or
a rifle, I am eighteen years or more of age; that I am not prohibited by the provisions of
chapter 44 of title 18, United States Code, from receiving a firearm in interstate or foreign
commerce; and that my receipt of this firearm will not be in violation of any statute of the
State and published ordinance applicable to the locality in which I reside. Further, the true
title, name, and address of the principal law enforcement officer of the locality to which the
firearm will be delivered are .____________________________________
Signature__________ Date_________




The statement must contain blank spaces to attach a true copy of any permit or other information
required pursuant to such State statute or published ordinance.

The corresponding regulation at title 27, Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), section 478.96(b),
states, in relevant part, that a licensee may sell a firearm that is not subject to the provisions of
§ 478.102(a) to a nonlicensee who does not appear in person at the licensee's business premises
if the nonlicensee is a resident of the same State in which the licensee's business premises are
located, and the nonlicensee furnishes to the licensee the firearms transaction record, Form 4473,
as required by § 478.124. The regulation further requires the nonlicensee to attach to the Form
4473 a true copy of any permit or other information required pursuant to any statute of the State
and published ordinance applicable to the locality in which he/she resides.

Furthermore, 18 U.S.C. 922(t)(1) and its implementing regulations at 27 CFR 478.102(a) require
a licensee to contact NICS for a background check prior to completion of a firearm transfer to an
unlicensed person, and verify the identity of that person by examining a valid identification
document. The statute at 18 U.S.C. 922(t)(3) and implementing regulation at 27 CFR 478.102(d)
provide exceptions to these requirements if: (1) the transferee has presented a valid permit or
license (“alternate permit”) that: (i) allows the transferee to possess, acquire, or carry a firearm;
(ii) was issued not more than 5 years earlier by the State in which the transfer is to take place;
and (iii) the law of the State provides that such a permit or license is to be issued only after an
authorized government official has verified that the information available to such official does
not indicate that possession of a firearm by the transferee would be in violation of Federal, State,
or local law, and includes completion of a NICS background check; (2) the firearm is subject to
the provisions of the National Firearms Act and has been approved for transfer under 27 CFR
Part 479; or (3) on application of the licensee, in accordance with 27 CFR 478.150, the ATF
Director has certified that running a NICS background check is impracticable.

ATF originally published Procedure 2013-2 as an alternate method of complying with 27 CFR
478.96 and 478.124(f) because the non-over-the-counter ATF Form 4473 (Part II) issued to
implement those regulations was discontinued in 2013. That procedure authorized use of the
over-the-counter ATF Form 4473 (Part I) for non-over-the-counter transactions provided that the
additional information required by 18 U.S.C. 922(c) was submitted with that form and the other
requirements in the procedure were followed. ATF is now updating that alternate procedure in
light of recent changes to the over-the-counter ATF Form 4473 (May 2020), which requires
completion of the form in an order different from that provided in 27 CFR 478.124(f). Because
that minor procedural change is consistent with the purpose of, and effect intended by §
478.124(f), ATF authorizes licensees to use this alternate procedure when selling firearms to
persons who do not appear at the licensed business premises in accordance with 18 U.S.C.
922(c).1

Procedure: A licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer may record and conduct the sale of a
firearm to a resident of the same State who does not appear in person at the licensed business
premises using ATF Form 4473, provided the transfer is exempt from the NICS requirements,
pursuant to 18 U.S.C. 922(t)(3) and 27 CFR 478.102(d), and the procedures below are followed:

1 ATF may approve alternate or emergency methods or procedures to existing regulations pursuant to 27 CFR
478.22 and 70.701(d)(2) [as in effect on January 23, 2003, and continued by 28 CFR 0.133(a)(2)].


1. The transferor/seller must complete Section A before the transferee/buyer completes
Section B of ATF Form 4473, and send the form to the transferee/buyer;

2. The transferee/buyer must properly complete and execute Section B of ATF Form 4473
as if the firearm was being transferred at the licensed premises;

3. Pursuant to 18 U.S.C. 922(c)(1) and 27 CFR 478.96(b), the transferee/buyer must execute
and attach to the Form 4473 a sworn statement in the format prescribed by 18 U.S.C.
922(c)(1) (set forth above), and, as applicable, a true copy signed and dated by the
transferee/buyer of the valid alternate permit that qualifies as a NICS exception, and any
other documentation required pursuant to State statute or published ordinance;

4. The transferee/buyer must return the original ATF Form 4473 and attachment(s) to the
licensee. The licensee must then complete the remaining portions of the form as if the
firearm was being transferred at the licensed premises;

5. The licensee must document the applicable NICS exception in Section C of the ATF
Form 4473;

6. The licensee is permitted to omit recording identifying information (type of identification,
number on identification, expiration date of identification) in Section C. However, if the
transferee/buyer is a nonimmigrant alien, the licensee must record the type of
documentation showing an exception to the nonimmigrant alien prohibition. This
supporting documentation must be attached to the ATF Form 4473;

7. Section D is not completed.
8. The licensee must complete Section E. In addition, the licensee must record the words
“18 U.S.C. 922(c) Transaction” at the top of the first page of the ATF Form 4473;

9. Pursuant to 18 U.S.C. 922(c)(2), 27 CFR 478.96(b), and 27 CFR 478.124(f), the licensee
must, prior to shipment or delivery of the firearm, forward by registered or certified mail
(return receipt requested) a copy of the Form 4473, sworn statement, and valid alternate
permit or other required information to the chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) named
on such statement;

10. Pursuant to 18 U.S.C. 922(c)(3), 27 CFR 478.96(b), and 27 CFR 478.124(f), the licensee
must delay shipment or delivery of the firearm for at least seven days following receipt by
the licensee of either the return receipt evidencing delivery of the copy of the Form 4473
to the CLEO, or the return of the copy of the Form 4473 to the licensee due to refusal of
the CLEO to accept the same in accordance with U.S. Postal Service regulations;

11. The licensee must retain the original Form 4473, including any attachments as required
by 27 CFR 478.96(b), the sworn statement, and evidence of receipt or rejection of
delivery of the information sent to the CLEO, as part of the records required to be kept by
the licensee under the provisions of 27 CFR subpart H, including §§478.129 and 478.131;
- 4 -
12. The licensee must record the firearms disposition in the licensee’s acquisition and
disposition record in accordance with 27 CFR 478.122, 478.123, or 478.125 (as
applicable); and

13. The licensee must report any multiple sales or other disposition of pistols or revolvers on
ATF Form 3310.4 in accordance with 27 CFR 478.126a. In addition, the licensee must
report any multiple sales or other disposition of certain rifles on ATF Form 3310.12 in
accordance with 18 U.S.C. 923(g)(5)(A), as applicable.

Licensees are reminded of their responsibility to ensure the accuracy and completeness of all
required records, and to maintain such records on their licensed premises available for
inspection. Failure to abide by any of these procedures may result in a violation of 18 U.S.C.
922(b)(5), 922(c), 922(m), 923(g), and/or 924(a)(3)(B), and corresponding regulations.
Inquiries: Inquiries concerning this procedure should refer to its number and be addressed to the
Firearms Industry Programs Branch at (202) 648-7190 or [email protected].
This procedure supersedes ATF Procedure 2013-2.
Date approved: September 3, 2020
Regina Lombardo
Acting Director
Link Posted: 3/29/2024 12:06:03 PM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DogtownTom:

The future was like a decade ago.
"Non over the counter" sales have been a thing for over a decade. Silencer Central and Capital Armory didn't invent it and back when Silencer Shop was a retailer, they were using it for Texas residents........... a decade ago.
View Quote

I got a can mailed directly to my door in GA via quiet riot firearms close to a decade ago.
Link Posted: 3/29/2024 12:42:05 PM EDT
[#14]
silencer central blows. overpriced garbage. ship to your door is nice, but damn, their prices are retarded.
Link Posted: 3/29/2024 1:10:13 PM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By _Matt_:
This is the first I have ever heard of shipping a suppressor to the purchaser
View Quote

Same with GunsNGear. Told me "thats Illegal!" Im like OK,bye.
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