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Posted: 5/9/2024 1:16:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: PatriotAr15]
This question pertains mainly to Catholics.
According to Catholic church, if you procure an abortion, or assist someone else with procuring an abortion... you are automatically excommunicated.
It is one of the few offenses in the church where excommunication is automatic.

However, this only seems to apply to people who get abortions for themselves, the doctor, the nurse, whoever might be giving them a ride to the abortion clinic, whoever might be encouraging them, paying for it... etc.

However, politicians who demand abortion be legal all the way from conception to post-birth... get to stay in good standing with the Catholic church. Why???
Why does a politician, who literally opens the door for millions of unborn children to be murdered... get to stay in good standing with the Catholic church? Why does the *POPE* literally proclaim many of these same politicians... of being "good Catholics?"
Same for Activists??! If you champion for the murder of unborn children... why should you be allowed to continue to be considered a "good Catholic"?

I would dare say that a Prostitute, who perhaps might hypothetically be pro-life,... would count as a better Catholic than an abortion supporter or pro-abortion politician.
The fact that Joe Biden, and Nancy Pelosi maintain good standing in the Catholic church, really bothers me.... and I'm not even Catholic.

How do Catholics deal with it?

I'm not wanting this to turn into a "Catholic bash" thread. Thats not my intent, my frustrations are purely aimed at the leaders.... as I know many MANY Catholics are staunchly pro-life.
But there is no way that Joe Biden, or Nancy Pelosi... or really ANY Democrat... can be considered a "good Catholic" simply by virtue of supporting murder of innocent unborn children.
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 1:17:50 PM EDT
[#1]
Because the church would lose half its members
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 1:21:24 PM EDT
[#2]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By zeekh:
Because the church would lose half its members
View Quote


Link Posted: 5/9/2024 1:21:53 PM EDT
[#3]
Simply because most Catholics, at least in American, want abortion to remain legal, and the Roman hierarchy isn't willing to excommunicate over half their members. I think it's definitely related to money. The question really in the end, is how faithful to Christ is the RCC and it's hierarchy?
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 1:23:25 PM EDT
[#4]
A lot of bishop's and cardinals like the power and influence.

Always been that way. Look at how many bishops died when Henry 8 did his thing.
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 1:23:42 PM EDT
[#5]
I’m a practicing Catholic and I wonder the exact same thing.

Link Posted: 5/9/2024 1:23:55 PM EDT
[#6]
This is not limited to the Catholic church.  Most go along to get along.  It isn't right, but it is how it is.

Link Posted: 5/9/2024 1:25:35 PM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DTFD714:
I’m a practicing Catholic and I wonder the exact same thing.

View Quote


Money.
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 1:26:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: recoiljunky] [#8]
It’s called tithings, yo


Beat by less than a minute
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 1:26:43 PM EDT
[#9]
It's just what happens when an organization abandons principles for power and money.  

Same thing happened to the Dem party, which accomplished all its principle-based goals by 1970.
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 1:28:59 PM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Notcalifornialegal:


Money.
View Quote



This. It's always about revenue
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 1:30:02 PM EDT
[#11]
Because the pope is a pussy
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 1:33:00 PM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TomMcC:
Simply because most Catholics, at least in American, want abortion to remain legal
View Quote
Not really. Many think it should be legal in some cases, but relatively few just think it should be flat out legal.
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 1:36:23 PM EDT
[#13]
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 1:37:24 PM EDT
[#14]
Hypocrisy

Among other things

Which is why I am no longer a practicing Catholic
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 1:37:54 PM EDT
[#15]
I don't understand how anyone who says they are Christian/Catholic and are pro-baby killing. It doesn't make sense. The pope and the rest wouldn't excommunicate millions of members, even tho they should, especially Pelosi.
I was raised Catholic and realize organized religion is just a money scam.
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 1:49:09 PM EDT
[#16]
https://www.cnn.com/2016/11/21/europe/pope-francis-absolve-abortion/index.html

00:59 - Source: CNN
CNN  —

Pope Francis has extended indefinitely the power of Catholic priests to forgive abortions, making the announcement in an apostolic letter released Monday.

It continues a special dispensation granted last year for the duration of the Year of Mercy – which finished Sunday – which gave all priests, rather than just bishops and specially designated confessors, the power to absolve the sin of abortion.

While the practical effect of Francis’ announcement remains unclear, it draws attention to the prevailing theme of his papacy: That the doors of the Church must remain open, just as God’s forgiveness and mercy extend to all those who repent from sin.

That said, the Catholic Church’s stance on abortion has not changed – it is still viewed as a “grave sin.” But it makes it easier for women who have had abortions to be absolved for their actions, and rejoin the church.

“I wish to restate as firmly as I can that abortion is a grave sin, since it puts an end to an innocent life,” the Pope’s letter states.

“In the same way, however, I can and must state that there is no sin that God’s mercy cannot reach and wipe away when it finds a repentant heart seeking to be reconciled with the Father.”

The letter continues: “May every priest, therefore, be a guide, support and comfort to penitents on this journey of special reconciliation.

“I henceforth grant to all priests, in virtue of their ministry, the faculty to absolve those who have committed the sin of procured abortion.”


Rome did not stop doing indulgences.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence#Plenary_indulgences

Plenary indulgences

Among the particular grants, which, on closer inspection, will be seen to be included in one or more of the four general grants, especially the first, the Enchiridion Indulgentiarum draws special attention[17] to four activities for which a plenary indulgence can be gained on any day, though only once a day:

   Piously reading or listening to Sacred Scripture for at least half an hour.[17]
   Adoration of Jesus in the Eucharist for at least half an hour.[17]
   The pious exercise of the Stations of the Cross.[17]
   Recitation of the Rosary or the Akathist in a church or oratory, or in a family, a religious community, an association of the faithful and, in general, when several people come together for an honourable purpose.[17]

The prayers specifically mentioned in the Enchiridion Indulgentiarum are not of the Latin Church tradition alone, but also from the traditions of the Eastern Catholic Churches, such as the Akathistos, Paraklesis, Evening Prayer, and Prayer for the Faithful Departed (Byzantine), Prayer of Thanksgiving (Armenian), Prayer of the Shrine and the Lakhu Mara (Chaldean), Prayer of Incense and Prayer to Glorify Mary the Mother of God (Coptic), Prayer for the Remission of Sins and Prayer to Follow Christ (Ethiopian), Prayer for the Church, and Prayer of Leave-taking from the Altar (Maronite), and Intercessions for the Faithful Departed (Syrian).

Besides the above actions, the 1968 Enchiridion of Indulgences lists the following actions as granting a plenary indulgence:[28]

   First Communion
   first Mass of a newly ordained priest
View Quote


Link Posted: 5/9/2024 1:49:10 PM EDT
[#17]
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 1:51:40 PM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By odiedodi:
Not really. Many think it should be legal in some cases, but relatively few just think it should be flat out legal.
View Quote
Here, read this over...see what you think. I would ask...do most Catholics bote "D"?

https://www.christianpost.com/news/under-1-of-catholics-agree-with-sanctity-of-life-teachings-data.html?utm_source=Daily&utm_campaign=Daily&utm_medium=newsletter

Link Posted: 5/9/2024 1:54:33 PM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Notcalifornialegal:


Money.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Notcalifornialegal:
Originally Posted By DTFD714:
I'm a practicing Catholic and I wonder the exact same thing.



Money.
We have a winner.
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 1:56:08 PM EDT
[#20]
Do you even Commie Pope, bro?
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 2:00:51 PM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By zeekh:
Because the church would lose half its members
View Quote


This. It's a clearing house for souls. They don't even want moral people because they can't be ruled/extorted from. This is the inevitable conclusion of fetishizing the the meek, the lame, incompetent, the degenerate, and the poor.

"Did you really think that we want those laws to be observed?” said Dr. Ferris. “We want them broken. You’d better get it straight that it’s not a bunch of boy scouts you’re up against — then you’ll know that this is not the age for beautiful gestures. We’re after power and we mean it. You fellows were pikers, but we know the real trick, and you’d better get wise to it. There’s no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren’t enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What’s there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted — and you create a nation of lawbreakers — and then you cash in on guilt. Now that’s the system, Mr. Rearden, that’s the game, and once you understand it, you’ll be much easier to deal with.”

Note that this isn't even really a Catholic specific thing, any Christian denomination is susceptible to it because the source material and philosophy is coming from the same place.
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 2:01:39 PM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By zeekh:
Because the church would lose half its members DONATIONS
View Quote

Link Posted: 5/9/2024 2:02:29 PM EDT
[#23]
Religion doesn't hold sway over people like it did in the old days.

A lot of people just pay lip service to their superstition of choice, they don't put much effort in actually living by its tenets.
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 2:04:07 PM EDT
[#24]
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 2:13:02 PM EDT
[#25]
Not a catholic, but in my interactions with them it has seemed that they put more emphasis on the social justice portion of their beliefs than on the pro-life. They view helping the poor (via government programs in combination with their churches efforts) to be the greater importance than being anti-abortion. Anecdotal, admittedly, but that is the reasoning I’ve been given when I’ve discussed it with them over the years.
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 2:14:35 PM EDT
[#26]
I asked a catholic friend that question years ago and was told " I'm not a single issue voter! " yeah, well, whatever eases your conscience.  Large percentage are hypocrites, as long as they get that final absolution anything is permissible.
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 2:16:34 PM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TomMcC:
Here, read this over...see what you think.
View Quote
You said most Catholics want legal abortion. I skimmed the article so maybe I missed it, but it seemed to be in line with what I said, which is that many believe it should be legal in some cases, but not flat out legal in all cases. It's a pretty even split in that case. Now technically, if 51% were in favor of it, that would still be "most", but it's rather misleading to use the word most if it were only a slight majority.

As far as political leanings, that's also a pretty even split overall. When it's further broken down it becomes more interesting. 57% of White Catholics lean republican, while 68% of Hispanic Catholics lean Democratic. It's just as much an issue of race as it is religion.
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 2:18:31 PM EDT
[#28]
They probably go to confession and say some Hail Marys.
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 2:30:53 PM EDT
[#29]
Excommunication in terms of abortion is not.." you're kicked out of the Church, never to return." A good confession to a priest can absolve someone from the sins of abortion and the excommunication.

Biden's apparent personal stance on abortion is that he is against it, but wants to protect " reproductive rights" for women.  It's hard to believe that, and the majority of the USCCB has been at odds with Biden over this since he was sworn in.
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 2:37:24 PM EDT
[#30]
Because organized religion and politics is all about power and control.
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 2:38:43 PM EDT
[#31]
They don’t go to the “churches” that care.
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 2:39:05 PM EDT
[#32]
M O N E Y
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 2:39:35 PM EDT
[#33]
That tithing yo?
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 2:44:56 PM EDT
[#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By FrozenWinter:

IIRC, the Archbishop of CA denied Pelosi the Sacrament of Holy Communion.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By FrozenWinter:
Originally Posted By Vintagearms007:
I don't understand how anyone who says they are Christian/Catholic and are pro-baby killing. It doesn't make sense. The pope and the rest wouldn't excommunicate millions of members, even tho they should, especially Pelosi.
I was raised Catholic and realize organized religion is just a money scam.

IIRC, the Archbishop of CA denied Pelosi the Sacrament of Holy Communion.

Didn't he get whacked for that by francis?
--------------------------

If anyone wants to know how romish politicians pull the mental trick of saying they're catholic and than doing the exact opposite ... have a read:

https://archive.is/MAhj8

But that all changed in the early '70s, when Democratic politicians first figured out that the powerful abortion lobby could fill their campaign coffers (and attract new liberal voters). Politicians also began to realize that, despite the Catholic Church's teachings to the contrary, its bishops and priests had ended their public role of responding negatively to those who promoted a pro-choice agenda.

In some cases, church leaders actually started providing "cover" for Catholic pro-choice politicians who wanted to vote in favor of abortion rights. At a meeting at the Kennedy compound in Hyannisport, Mass., on a hot summer day in 1964, the Kennedy family and its advisers and allies were coached by leading theologians and Catholic college professors on how to accept and promote abortion with a "clear conscience."

The former Jesuit priest Albert Jonsen, emeritus professor of ethics at the University of Washington, recalls the meeting in his book "The Birth of Bioethics" (Oxford, 2003). He writes about how he joined with the Rev. Joseph Fuchs, a Catholic moral theologian; the Rev. Robert Drinan, then dean of Boston College Law School; and three academic theologians, the Revs. Giles Milhaven, Richard McCormick and Charles Curran, to enable the Kennedy family to redefine support for abortion.

Mr. Jonsen writes that the Hyannisport colloquium was influenced by the position of another Jesuit, the Rev. John Courtney Murray, a position that "distinguished between the moral aspects of an issue and the feasibility of enacting legislation about that issue." It was the consensus at the Hyannisport conclave that Catholic politicians "might tolerate legislation that would permit abortion under certain circumstances if political efforts to repress this moral error led to greater perils to social peace and order."

Father Milhaven later recalled the Hyannisport meeting during a 1984 breakfast briefing of Catholics for a Free Choice: "The theologians worked for a day and a half among ourselves at a nearby hotel. In the evening we answered questions from the Kennedys and the Shrivers. Though the theologians disagreed on many a point, they all concurred on certain basics . . . and that was that a Catholic politician could in good conscience vote in favor of abortion."
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 2:48:34 PM EDT
[#35]
Originally Posted By PatriotAr15:
This question pertains mainly to Catholics.
According to Catholic church, if you procure an abortion, or assist someone else with procuring an abortion... you are automatically excommunicated.
It is one of the few offenses in the church where excommunication is automatic.

However, this only seems to apply to people who get abortions for themselves, the doctor, the nurse, whoever might be giving them a ride to the abortion clinic, whoever might be encouraging them, paying for it... etc.

However, politicians who demand abortion be legal all the way from conception to post-birth... get to stay in good standing with the Catholic church. Why???
Why does a politician, who literally opens the door for millions of unborn children to be murdered... get to stay in good standing with the Catholic church? Why does the *POPE* literally proclaim many of these same politicians... of being "good Catholics?"
Same for Activists??! If you champion for the murder of unborn children... why should you be allowed to continue to be considered a "good Catholic"?

I would dare say that a Prostitute, who perhaps might hypothetically be pro-life,... would count as a better Catholic than an abortion supporter or pro-abortion politician.
The fact that Joe Biden, and Nancy Pelosi maintain good standing in the Catholic church, really bothers me.... and I'm not even Catholic.

How do Catholics deal with it?

I'm not wanting this to turn into a "Catholic bash" thread. Thats not my intent, my frustrations are purely aimed at the leaders.... as I know many MANY Catholics are staunchly pro-life.
But there is no way that Joe Biden, or Nancy Pelosi... or really ANY Democrat... can be considered a "good Catholic" simply by virtue of supporting murder of innocent unborn children.
View Quote


Church needs the money
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 2:49:33 PM EDT
[#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By sparkyfender2:
Religion doesn't hold sway over people like it did in the old days.

A lot of people just pay lip service to their superstition of choice, they don't put much effort in actually living by its tenets.
View Quote

Oh, it absolutely does.

We just don't honestly call the new religions religions, even though they are.

Click To View Spoiler

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/magazine/1460441/the-spiritual-shape-of-political-ideas/

And there's a significant chunk on the right who's religion is a civic one of nation/family/tradition.

A rose is still a rose even if it goes by another name.

------------------------------

Older distinctions go by the wayside when they lose their ability to grip and unite people.

I'm sure you've noticed that people across belief gaps that should divide them radically unite over other things.

One of the bigger ones on the right is people who take tradition seriously uniting across huge gaps.
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 2:50:23 PM EDT
[#37]
The simple answer is because the church is complicit with all of the left-wing ideology because they are not the church that we knew as young people they’re all about control
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 2:53:41 PM EDT
[#38]
Excommunication is meant to rebuke a brother or sister into repentance and back into God's grace.

It is meant to stir their conscience, not banish them forever.  Unless they choose to do so.

Problem is most Catholic politicians are anything but, so saying they can't receive sacraments means little to them.
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 2:57:08 PM EDT
[#39]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Aimless:
I heard a Democrat operative claim that Catholics are one of three most solid groups that Democrats depend on in the northeast, one of the others was black women, I forget the third.
View Quote

Unions
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 3:04:56 PM EDT
[#40]
Excommunication is the complete opposite of what Jesus did with sinners. That is some tremendous hubris to exclude anyone from being ministered to and hearing the word of God. The job of the church is to bring people to God not turn them away.
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 3:05:30 PM EDT
[#41]
they give money usually
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 3:09:18 PM EDT
[#42]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By zeekh:
Because the church would lose half its members
View Quote



And their tithes.

In my experience, financial well being of the church is the primary consideration, all else being secondary.
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 3:20:26 PM EDT
[#43]
My priest was asked why pro abortion politicians weren’t excommunicated and his answer was that during the excommunication process, it’s possible the politician has confessed that sin and no longer supports abortion after the confession and repentance.  That would result in a Catholic in good standing being denied communion.  It’s not likely that Biden or Pelosi, for example, are ever going to reverse their stance on abortion, but there is still a possibility they could.  If they aren’t excommunicated and still take communion while supporting abortion, they are well aware of what the Church teaches about taking communion while in a state of sinfulness, and those consequences are on them.
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 3:22:34 PM EDT
[#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By PR361:



And their tithes.

In my experience, financial well being of the church is the primary consideration, all else being secondary.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By PR361:
Originally Posted By zeekh:
Because the church would lose half its members



And their tithes.

In my experience, financial well being of the church is the primary consideration, all else being secondary.

Some Catholic parishes and priests no doubt worry about the amount of money they receive every week, but just like Protestant churches, there are also some parishes and priests that don’t.
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 3:24:26 PM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AlabamaFan64:

Some Catholic parishes and priests no doubt worry about the amount of money they receive every week, but just like Protestant churches, there are also some parishes and priests that don’t.
View Quote


Yep
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 3:28:17 PM EDT
[#46]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By grumpalicious:
Excommunication is the complete opposite of what Jesus did with sinners. That is some tremendous hubris to exclude anyone from being ministered to and hearing the word of God. The job of the church is to bring people to God not turn them away.
View Quote



If you have people in open rebellion to church doctrine who may influence others likewise, better to expel them than let others suffer.

Link Posted: 5/9/2024 3:35:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: brianm] [#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By grumpalicious:
Excommunication is the complete opposite of what Jesus did with sinners. That is some tremendous hubris to exclude anyone from being ministered to and hearing the word of God. The job of the church is to bring people to God not turn them away.
View Quote


I believe they're still required to attend services.  They just can not participate as those in full communion.

But Jesus said if a brother refuses to repent, they should be shunned like in Mat. 18:17.  Excommunication does not go even that far.
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 3:39:43 PM EDT
[#48]
If it wasnt about money then the teachings would never change.

But the teachings change with pop culture.

Apply this broad brush to all religions, and you’ll find ones with true values.
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 3:45:19 PM EDT
[#49]
Because a lot of the leaders are apostates.
Link Posted: 5/9/2024 3:47:36 PM EDT
[#50]
Less people, less $$
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