User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
AZ, USA
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 12:13:27 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By eagarminuteman: Conservatism is dead and so is the idea of small government. Everyone wants big government so long as they’re in control. It’s almost as if Bastiat’s book “The Law” has enduring relevance. Economic illiteracy is a natural consequence of general illiteracy. Tariffs violate the right to engage in contracts and participate in voluntary exchange. They insert a third party and third party corruption. Restraint of trade by chrony capitalists bad, restraint of trade by levelers, givernment, or the ATF good. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 1:13:34 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: Complete crap. Tariffs did not cause inflation. Japan moving production to the US is a good thing. You don't pay what something costs plus some fixed amount of profit, you pay what you will pay or you won't buy the item. That's how economics works. When Ford moved pickup manufacturing to Mexico did the trucks get cheaper? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: Originally Posted By Bigger_Hammer: This. Clearly "economics" is not well understood by the masses of G.D.. "Gawd Damn! Trump gunna' put those tariffs on the Chinese - Hell Yes & Yee Haw!" Followed by "Fucking Inflation! - my stuff continues to cost more & more" Tariffs are temporary (only last as long as a President in office) The US needs a long term plan with supporting economic legislation & tax code changes to support long term economic changes to bring production of key industries back to the US and make the US a nation that Builds Great Things the world wants to buy, thus creating a positive balance of trade. We allowed our critical important industries to go offshore via NAFTA & then various WTO agreements. Republicans were neck & neck with Democrats in gutting the industrial core of American industries. "Deindustrialization" destroyed much of the American middle class & American jobs, American towns & American Way of life for generations. Our Laws & Tax Codes Benefited , rather than punished companies to move their production facilities & personnel OUT of the USA. When Japanese vehicles were destroying the American auto industries in the 70s & 80s, tariffs against Japanese automakers only (A) raised the price of autos to the US consumers, and then (B) the Japanese end ran around the tariffs & limits moving some of their Production from Japan to Mexico, Canada or the US. Toyota & Honda & Subaru still continue to build vehicles that Americans prefer to buy Vs. Chrysler, GM or Ford. Japanese auto companies are still making big money off of American buyers - so much for tariffs. Tariffs are best for short term temporary relief of specific situations,not a long term trade imbalance solution or realistic for any reindustrialization of America. No industries are going to invest millions or billions for new facilities & production without written legislation & tax code changes that can NOT be revoked or changed on the mere whim of a "leader" Bigger_Hammer  Tariffs did not cause inflation. Japan moving production to the US is a good thing. You don't pay what something costs plus some fixed amount of profit, you pay what you will pay or you won't buy the item. That's how economics works. When Ford moved pickup manufacturing to Mexico did the trucks get cheaper? Tell us all how you don't understand Tariffs... Tariffs are a Import Tax that is eventually passed on to be paid by the Consumer, unless some company in the production line chooses to eat those additional costs reducing their profit or capital for expansion or upgrading. Tariffs may not be the Root cause of inflation (over supply of money chasing an undersupply of items) but price increases of over previous items due to price increases because of Tariffs most definitely increases inflationary pressures & numbers. The Japanese brought production facilities to the USA because Reagan threatened them with IMPORTATION limits on the number of Japanese vehicles imported into the USA so the Japanese solution was to build plants & vehicles in the USA to get around the IMPORTATION Quota and they could then build huge numbers of Camrys, Corollas, Civics & Accords and the US couldn't do fuck all about it. "American" factory, building "American" cars & the profits flow out & right back to Japan. Want to know why Americans can't buy the legendary Toyota HiLux pick up truck? Tariffs (the so called "Chicken Tax") on imported Japanese light trucks. And Ford, GM, Chrysler & others moved a lot of formerly US automotive production to Mexico over the years, taking away American Jobs in American Cities without any fear of "Tariff's" because of NAFTA & Trump's own USMCA trade agreement on North American (Mexico, US or Canadian) production . Did your new Mexican made pickup truck get Cheaper to buy in the USA? No? The Company just made more profit off of it since lower labor costs for same or higher price = or maybe you "negotiated" $500 off the sticker price... (which they could easily afford to do if they saved $3500 using Mexican labor) Tariffs are a short term targeted tool, but of America to really bring industry back to the USA, the need for Congress & the President to update the Tax Codes & Legislation that currently still favors & rewarding the exporting of American jobs, instead of financially punishing those who send American jobs overseas. Bigger_Hammer
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 1:17:42 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bigger_Hammer: Tell us all how you don't understand Tariffs... Tariffs are a Import Tax that is eventually passed on to be paid by the Consumer, unless some company in the production line chooses to eat those additional costs reducing their profit or capital for expansion or upgrading. Tariffs may not be the Root cause of inflation (over supply of money chasing an undersupply of items) but price increases of over previous items due to price increases because of Tariffs most definitely increases inflationary pressures & numbers. The Japanese brought production facilities to the USA because Reagan threatened them with IMPORTATION limits on the number of Japanese vehicles imported into the USA so the Japanese solution was to build plants & vehicles in the USA to get around the IMPORTATION Quota and they could then build huge numbers of Camrys, Corollas, Civics & Accords and the US couldn't do fuck all about it. "American" factory, building "American" cars & the profits flow out & right back to Japan. Want to know why Americans can't buy the legendary Toyota HiLux pick up truck? Tariffs (the so called "Chicken Tax") on imported Japanese light trucks. And Ford, GM, Chrysler & others moved a lot of formerly US automotive production to Mexico over the years, taking away American Jobs in American Cities without any fear of "Tariff's" because of NAFTA & Trump's own USMCA trade agreement on North American (Mexico, US or Canadian) production . Did your new Mexican made pickup truck get Cheaper to buy in the USA? No? The Company just made more profit off of it since lower labor costs for same or higher price = or maybe you "negotiated" $500 off the sticker price... (which they could easily afford to do if they saved $3500 using Mexican labor) Tariffs are a short term targeted tool, but of America to really bring industry back to the USA, the need for Congress & the President to update the Tax Codes & Legislation that currently still favors & rewarding the exporting of American jobs, instead of financially punishing those who send American jobs overseas. Bigger_Hammer Only the real homies hate the chicken tax. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 1:59:25 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By redfish86: Good Build shit in America. Fuck chy na Someone PLEASE explain to me how unions wouldn’t be onboard by supporting a POTUS who would bring more work to this country That ship sailed a long time ago, when union labor drove the prices up too high in the first place, which pushed production over season for cheaper labor, then design and production costed lowered even more. Hence that large screen TV that you buy from Walmart for $400, would have costed $6000 now if still usa built and designed, if Asian companies have not taken over design and production decades ago. Great example, the first microwave ovens produced in the states, and then the first Asian units costing a 1/4 of the price the same year. So tariff plan is to tax the import items, to the point that they be slightly more expensive than what is produced in the USA instead. The glitch USA companies not able to design, much less build for the cost of that the asian are doing, so we consumers will end up paying twice if not more to have to buy the USA produced goods (pick any thing in say a walmart store), and all those tarrifs, not end up reducing our cost on any thing, but just going into the goverments pockets, until the asian manufactors are no longer sending the goods to use. Hence killing off most of the store like walmart in the first place. So plan is not to make USA great again, but to jack up the inport tax on any thing brought in, to the the point that USA companies can make and compete against the asian market priced, which min labor would need to be raised again, to something like $100 an hour. Hence this tariff plan sounds a lot like trump opening up areas for domestic oil drilling and fracking, but what the masses don't understand, we have no refiners in the USA to processes that type of crude, EPA will not allow them to be built them, and the only Jobs that such is creating, is the rich businesses owners that are selling the crud to other countries that can refine it. Trump is all about trump, not the common people that vote for him blindly, and every move he makes, all about money in his pocket, including the kick backs from other businesses that he throws bones to with his decision. Don't believe me, take a look the start of COVID, before it was in this country, him playing it down to not hurt business/firing anyone that did not go with his downplay, and when he allowed is in to the country from not shutting down the boards when they should have, caused the death over a million people in this country. Bottom line, show me any decision that trump has made in office, that was not in his own best interests to make more money or his legacy, but to be for the common good for the people. Then take a real deep dive into such, such as the new oil drilling/fracking in the states that the crud being pulled out of the ground, can not be refined in the states, so not really producing the increase in jobs long term. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 4:49:16 AM EDT
[#5]
I've been scouring the internet for USA made drill bits to round out my selection in my hobby machine shop. Now, I've drilled thousands of quality holes with Chinese drill bits bit now I'm able to afford to buy better quality American drill bits over time.
Part of the reason I can afford USA made drill bits is the fact that so many other consumer goods like electronics and appliances are inexpensive. That frees up money for to buy better stuff in my shop. Make all those goods more expensive as part of a trade war and now I might not have the disposable income to buy those American made tools. I might have to downgrade back down to Chinese drill bits on the bigger sizes because the economic environment doesn't allow it anymore. Unintended consequences of those who think they can control the market. BTW. Every time you buy American over Chinese is proof the market still works. Some American company brought you a product of acceptable quality at a price you were willing to pay. It doesn't matter that China cheats. They are still part of that market. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 6:54:57 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By planemaker: I actually think they are old-school communists. Kissinger stupidly peddled the idea that if only we were to have trade with them, they'd suddenly become freedom-loving republicans. They were never going to become capitalists nor were they ever going to be remotely democratic. All businesses in China are owned by the CCP. And, the "principals" in those "businesses" serve at the pleasure of whichever dictator is currently at the top of the communist party heap. But they certainly have been exploiting the idiocy that passes for leadership in DC. My use of "capitalism with Chinese features" wasn't a mistake that's literally what they call their system. Or what Xi calls it. It is a hybrid. They are smart enough and know our system so well that they can see how to manipulate us within our own ideology. If for example we see free trade and comparative advantage as the basis for our economics they can subsidize targeted industries and concentrate all the productive capacity in the world to China. Then they have a monopoly on producing that item, giving them pricing power and even more concerning a major strategic advantage in global relations. Ship building, rare earth's, steel, computer chips,...etc. The free market economists ideals don't fare well when that starts to happen. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 7:06:01 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bigger_Hammer: Tell us all how you don't understand Tariffs... Tariffs are a Import Tax that is eventually passed on to be paid by the Consumer, unless some company in the production line chooses to eat those additional costs reducing their profit or capital for expansion or upgrading. Tariffs may not be the Root cause of inflation (over supply of money chasing an undersupply of items) but price increases of over previous items due to price increases because of Tariffs most definitely increases inflationary pressures & numbers. The Japanese brought production facilities to the USA because Reagan threatened them with IMPORTATION limits on the number of Japanese vehicles imported into the USA so the Japanese solution was to build plants & vehicles in the USA to get around the IMPORTATION Quota and they could then build huge numbers of Camrys, Corollas, Civics & Accords and the US couldn't do fuck all about it. "American" factory, building "American" cars & the profits flow out & right back to Japan. Want to know why Americans can't buy the legendary Toyota HiLux pick up truck? Tariffs (the so called "Chicken Tax") on imported Japanese light trucks. And Ford, GM, Chrysler & others moved a lot of formerly US automotive production to Mexico over the years, taking away American Jobs in American Cities without any fear of "Tariff's" because of NAFTA & Trump's own USMCA trade agreement on North American (Mexico, US or Canadian) production . Did your new Mexican made pickup truck get Cheaper to buy in the USA? No? The Company just made more profit off of it since lower labor costs for same or higher price = or maybe you "negotiated" $500 off the sticker price... (which they could easily afford to do if they saved $3500 using Mexican labor) Tariffs are a short term targeted tool, but of America to really bring industry back to the USA, the need for Congress & the President to update the Tax Codes & Legislation that currently still favors & rewarding the exporting of American jobs, instead of financially punishing those who send American jobs overseas. Bigger_Hammer We had tariffs for decades without inflation in the past. We had tariffs for multiple years in markets where pricing changes daily and didn't have significant inflation recently. What tariffs do in a modern economy is bias the source of production. We don't have the hilux not because of the chicken tax, we don't have it because Toyota chose no to make it here. Likely due to other regulatory issues, safety and emissions etc. They make tacos here no problem, they actually build more of them in Mexico for the NA market. There is no tariff reason Toyota couldn't build hilux in San Antonio or Mexico and sell them here tariff free. This is no different than policies of countries all over the world. The fat electrician is fun and all...but... |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 7:11:29 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: I've been scouring the internet for USA made drill bits to round out my selection in my hobby machine shop. Now, I've drilled thousands of quality holes with Chinese drill bits bit now I'm able to afford to buy better quality American drill bits over time. Part of the reason I can afford USA made drill bits is the fact that so many other consumer goods like electronics and appliances are inexpensive. That frees up money for to buy better stuff in my shop. Make all those goods more expensive as part of a trade war and now I might not have the disposable income to buy those American made tools. I might have to downgrade back down to Chinese drill bits on the bigger sizes because the economic environment doesn't allow it anymore. Unintended consequences of those who think they can control the market. BTW. Every time you buy American over Chinese is proof the market still works. Some American company brought you a product of acceptable quality at a price you were willing to pay. It doesn't matter that China cheats. They are still part of that market. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 7:13:02 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: Again with the complete lack of an basic understanding of economics. My solution is free market and based on individual choice. Your solution is bigger, more powerful government and increasing money to that government. Aren't you embarrassed? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By VeryAverage: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By VeryAverage: Anyone opposed is profoundly ignorant beyond all belief. I’ve been to China. Our goods are insanely overpriced there, well above and beyond what it is just in currency difference or logistics. Other countries have been and are charging extreme amounts for us to sell them goods, but then we give them sweetheart deals on their exports. I’d be in favor of a tit-for-tat system where we match another country’s tariffs. At this point, though, we need to seriously scale back the Chinese economy. We need to break them economically before it becomes necessary to do it militarily. They’re working on it and we’re fools for not fighting this trade war as if it’s a world war. So many logical fallacies that it's hard to find a starting point. Why do we live better lives than they do? Even our poor are rich compared to them. How is it even possible that any US businesses exist? Certain things are more difficult to offshore for various reasons. China is in an economic and production war with us. They are fighting us. You demand that we surrender. You’re a defeatist. Again with the complete lack of an basic understanding of economics. My solution is free market and based on individual choice. Your solution is bigger, more powerful government and increasing money to that government. Aren't you embarrassed? It isn’t free market whether we act or not. The market is being manipulated. That’s the problem. Do you want to just let the Chinese Communist Party dictate to the world how the market is manipulated? Just let them have an unabated trade war with us? It isn’t a free market system. Their government subsidizes industries to drive competition out of business. They artificially devalue the RMB to make their goods more appealing. They are actively engaged in state-sponsored anti-competitive activities. Sitting on our hands doesn’t just magically put us onto some global gold standard with free trade. That ship has sailed. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 7:16:54 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By VeryAverage: It isn't free market whether we act or not. The market is being manipulated. That's the problem. Do you want to just let the Chinese Communist Party dictate to the world how the market is manipulated? Just let them have an unabated trade war with us? It isn't a free market system. Their government subsidizes industries to drive competition out of business. They artificially devalue the RMB to make their goods more appealing. They are actively engaged in state-sponsored anti-competitive activities. Sitting on our hands doesn't just magically put us onto some global gold standard with free trade. That ship has sailed. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 7:17:41 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: When the goal of the cheating is the elimination the entire productive capacity of the competing country, in a targeted segment, its larger than just the economics. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: Originally Posted By batmanacw: I've been scouring the internet for USA made drill bits to round out my selection in my hobby machine shop. Now, I've drilled thousands of quality holes with Chinese drill bits bit now I'm able to afford to buy better quality American drill bits over time. Part of the reason I can afford USA made drill bits is the fact that so many other consumer goods like electronics and appliances are inexpensive. That frees up money for to buy better stuff in my shop. Make all those goods more expensive as part of a trade war and now I might not have the disposable income to buy those American made tools. I might have to downgrade back down to Chinese drill bits on the bigger sizes because the economic environment doesn't allow it anymore. Unintended consequences of those who think they can control the market. BTW. Every time you buy American over Chinese is proof the market still works. Some American company brought you a product of acceptable quality at a price you were willing to pay. It doesn't matter that China cheats. They are still part of that market. Every business in the world wants to destroy their competition to make more money.... |
|
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 7:23:58 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: Fucking stupid. Only a complete economic illiterate can support that. Much of what is built here has Chinese components. We will all pay billions in new taxes in the form of higher prices due to tariffs paid to the government. The higher prices are not helping anyone but to feed the government more money and power. 100% this. Many dont realize it because they just dont operate in Manufacturing. As someone that does...let me educate you. One might think that the current tariff would tax COMPLETE goods but allow individual components such as packaging materials, screws etc. to pass through untaxed to dissuade someone from manufacturing in china and moving the acutal manufacturing to the USA RIght? WRONG - right now if I were to move base parts I am taxed at 25%. If I assemble those parts 100% in china to the point of ready to sell, I do not get taxed on the same goods. Whine, cry, say I am wrong all you want but it is fact, it has been reviewed by Several law firms. I eat, live, and breath this every day. The Tariffs have done nothing other than bolster our manufacturing in china (when we are actually trying to move it to the US) and give the gov more money. Period. For the record 2x trump voter here but either he doesnt understand what hes doing or its by design. I lean to the latter. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 7:25:34 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: Every business in the world wants to destroy their competition to make more money.... When other nations do that it's combated with tariffs. Thousands of Tariffs exist with nearly every nation, actual "free trade" is the exception not the rule and we reserve it for countries we are typically allied with because economics and diplomacy exists together. One is a tool of the other. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 7:28:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: xd341]
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GeneralDisaray: 100% this. Many dont realize it because they just dont operate in Manufacturing. As someone that does...let me educate you. One might think that the current tariff would tax COMPLETE goods but allow individual components such as packaging materials, screws etc. to pass through untaxed to dissuade someone from manufacturing in china and moving the acutal manufacturing to the USA RIght? WRONG - right now if I were to move base parts I am taxed at 25%. If I assemble those parts 100% in china to the point of ready to sell, I do not get taxed on the same goods. Whine, cry, say I am wrong all you want but it is fact, it has been reviewed by Several law firms. I eat, live, and breath this every day. The Tariffs have done nothing other than bolster our manufacturing in china (when we are actually trying to move it to the US) and give the gov more money. Period. For the record 2x trump voter here but either he doesnt understand what hes doing or its by design. I lean to the latter. There is a reason NAFTA got trashed. China and others were exploiting loop holes by trans-shipping tariffed goods through Mexico to evade the tariff. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 7:36:20 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Alwaysright: I'm sure Jr. is working on it as we speak if can take time away from Gavin Newsom's sloppy seconds. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Alwaysright: Originally Posted By GutWrench: He promised that last time. Maybe his 2nd amendment coalition can work on this after we get the hearing protection act. I'm sure Jr. is working on it as we speak if can take time away from Gavin Newsom's sloppy seconds. Yuck. 🤮 |
|
|
|
OH, USA
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 7:38:24 AM EDT
[#16]
It's funny looking back (before the recycling fad) when many things were built to be serviced / repaired VS tossed in a land fill today.
Most consumables came in glass bottles and was reused. Soda bottles had a deposit and it was a job for someone to pick them up, wash & sanitize then reuse. Today there is tons of plastic in landfills, oceans, etc. Which is really more green? Ross Perot was correct about NAFTA and our corporate America moved lots of manufacturing to Mexico, then India, China or anywhere to make the most $$$. There is no free trade with countries that pay dirt wages or have primitive living or working conditions. China has been dumping product in the US at a lopsided rate, not including their currency manipulation or slave labor. Trump was putting the screws to them hard his 1st term, rightfully so. |
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 7:43:00 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: You know Trump set policy, he didnt write the actual rules right? I'm not saying you're wrong, the tariff schedule is dense and hundreds of pages and is full of very specific conditions that don't always seem to make sense, or are being exploited. There is a reason NAFTA got trashed. China and others were exploiting loop holes by trans-shipping tariffed goods through Mexico to evade the tariff. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: Originally Posted By GeneralDisaray: 100% this. Many dont realize it because they just dont operate in Manufacturing. As someone that does...let me educate you. One might think that the current tariff would tax COMPLETE goods but allow individual components such as packaging materials, screws etc. to pass through untaxed to dissuade someone from manufacturing in china and moving the acutal manufacturing to the USA RIght? WRONG - right now if I were to move base parts I am taxed at 25%. If I assemble those parts 100% in china to the point of ready to sell, I do not get taxed on the same goods. Whine, cry, say I am wrong all you want but it is fact, it has been reviewed by Several law firms. I eat, live, and breath this every day. The Tariffs have done nothing other than bolster our manufacturing in china (when we are actually trying to move it to the US) and give the gov more money. Period. For the record 2x trump voter here but either he doesnt understand what hes doing or its by design. I lean to the latter. There is a reason NAFTA got trashed. China and others were exploiting loop holes by trans-shipping tariffed goods through Mexico to evade the tariff. Just to be clear - I am not blaming trump here I am simply highlight the tariffs are not accomplishing anything that is of desire. Secondly in my example, there isnt a loop hole being used. The actual law is fucking somoene trying to do what the gov is publicly saying they are trying to help and honestly is helping china LOL. There is no reason for them to use a loop hole lol. Only place I can fault trump is if you stand on a box stating a primary goal of your presidency is XYZ - you sure as shit better understand XYZ to make the meaningful impact and not be fucked by the lawmakers. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 7:43:06 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By borderpatrol: Everyone should understand that all tariffs are paid by the end consumer. There is nothing to celebrate here. This is why other countries tariffs on the US are a hurdle that keeps us from being competitive . Turn about is fair play. Some Asian countries there are 200% tariff on us automobiles . We don't sell many there. Everyone understands it affects the end user that's the point. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 7:43:21 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: Sure but they aren't supported by a nation state intentionally manipulating all the factors that influence competitiveness to achieve that goal. When other nations do that it's combated with tariffs. Thousands of Tariffs exist with nearly every nation, actual "free trade" is the exception not the rule and we reserve it for countries we are typically allied with because economics and diplomacy exists together. One is a tool of the other. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Every business in the world wants to destroy their competition to make more money.... When other nations do that it's combated with tariffs. Thousands of Tariffs exist with nearly every nation, actual "free trade" is the exception not the rule and we reserve it for countries we are typically allied with because economics and diplomacy exists together. One is a tool of the other. The US subsidizes lots of our businesses. It's only wrong when we have to compete with it. |
|
|
|
MI, USA
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 7:43:29 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cmmeur01: Maybe we could you know… build those components here? Guess that’s just fucking stupid too? We need to start building back the manufacturing sector here at some point (shoulda never left but the FIRE types run the show). "What the former president wants to do "quickly" is push up tariff levels to heights not seen in recent history. " How quickly do you think we can spin up manufacturing to replace what we have spent decades offshoring? I'm all for bringing manufacturing back, but it's not something you can do overnight... Or even 4 years. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 7:45:08 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GeneralDisaray: Just to be clear - I am not blaming trump here I am simply highlight the tariffs are not accomplishing anything that is of desire. Secondly in my example, there isnt a loop hole being used. The actual law is fucking somoene trying to do what the gov is publicly saying they are trying to help and honestly is helping china LOL. There is no reason for them to use a loop hole lol. Only place I can fault trump is if you stand on a box stating a primary goal of your presidency is XYZ - you sure as shit better understand XYZ to make the meaningful impact and not be fucked by the lawmakers. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GeneralDisaray: Originally Posted By xd341: Originally Posted By GeneralDisaray: 100% this. Many dont realize it because they just dont operate in Manufacturing. As someone that does...let me educate you. One might think that the current tariff would tax COMPLETE goods but allow individual components such as packaging materials, screws etc. to pass through untaxed to dissuade someone from manufacturing in china and moving the acutal manufacturing to the USA RIght? WRONG - right now if I were to move base parts I am taxed at 25%. If I assemble those parts 100% in china to the point of ready to sell, I do not get taxed on the same goods. Whine, cry, say I am wrong all you want but it is fact, it has been reviewed by Several law firms. I eat, live, and breath this every day. The Tariffs have done nothing other than bolster our manufacturing in china (when we are actually trying to move it to the US) and give the gov more money. Period. For the record 2x trump voter here but either he doesnt understand what hes doing or its by design. I lean to the latter. There is a reason NAFTA got trashed. China and others were exploiting loop holes by trans-shipping tariffed goods through Mexico to evade the tariff. Just to be clear - I am not blaming trump here I am simply highlight the tariffs are not accomplishing anything that is of desire. Secondly in my example, there isnt a loop hole being used. The actual law is fucking somoene trying to do what the gov is publicly saying they are trying to help and honestly is helping china LOL. There is no reason for them to use a loop hole lol. Only place I can fault trump is if you stand on a box stating a primary goal of your presidency is XYZ - you sure as shit better understand XYZ to make the meaningful impact and not be fucked by the lawmakers. The rules are always a result of crony capitalism and corruption. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 7:59:08 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GeneralDisaray: Just to be clear - I am not blaming trump here I am simply highlight the tariffs are not accomplishing anything that is of desire. Secondly in my example, there isnt a loop hole being used. The actual law is fucking somoene trying to do what the gov is publicly saying they are trying to help and honestly is helping china LOL. There is no reason for them to use a loop hole lol. Only place I can fault trump is if you stand on a box stating a primary goal of your presidency is XYZ - you sure as shit better understand XYZ to make the meaningful impact and not be fucked by the lawmakers. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 8:05:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: xd341]
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: The US subsidizes lots of our businesses. It's only wrong when we have to compete with it. This isn't econ 101. I know you loved that class and the world made so much sense after...but the world is complex and messy. It's good to have principals, but when you have an enemy, and that enemy is taking advantage of your rigid principals, it's time for a new plan. Make good deals with honest brokers. I have no problem with that. Making bad deals with scum bags that want to destroy our nation? Yeah that's fucking dumb. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 8:22:51 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: When it's systemic and targeted and it harms our national interests it's wrong. The US is a rank amateur in the picking winners game compared to China. This isn't econ 101. I know you loved that class and the world made so much sense after...but the world is complex and messy. It's good to have principals, but when you have an enemy, and that enemy is taking advantage of your rigid principals, it's time for a new plan. Make good deals with honest brokers. I have no problem with that. Making bad deals with scum bags that want to destroy our nation? Yeah that's fucking dumb. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: Originally Posted By batmanacw: The US subsidizes lots of our businesses. It's only wrong when we have to compete with it. This isn't econ 101. I know you loved that class and the world made so much sense after...but the world is complex and messy. It's good to have principals, but when you have an enemy, and that enemy is taking advantage of your rigid principals, it's time for a new plan. Make good deals with honest brokers. I have no problem with that. Making bad deals with scum bags that want to destroy our nation? Yeah that's fucking dumb. No offense but your solution is more government corruption. Mine is to take the gloves off our business. Let the people make their own choices. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 8:43:28 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: I've been scouring the internet for USA made drill bits to round out my selection in my hobby machine shop. Now, I've drilled thousands of quality holes with Chinese drill bits bit now I'm able to afford to buy better quality American drill bits over time. Part of the reason I can afford USA made drill bits is the fact that so many other consumer goods like electronics and appliances are inexpensive. That frees up money for to buy better stuff in my shop. Make all those goods more expensive as part of a trade war and now I might not have the disposable income to buy those American made tools. I might have to downgrade back down to Chinese drill bits on the bigger sizes because the economic environment doesn't allow it anymore. Unintended consequences of those who think they can control the market. BTW. Every time you buy American over Chinese is proof the market still works. Some American company brought you a product of acceptable quality at a price you were willing to pay. It doesn't matter that China cheats. They are still part of that market. It's really very hard to find US made things in a lot of places where people normally shop. That's part of the problem that doesn't have an easy solution. If I went looking for a nice US made shirt, I could look in Walmart, Target, Dillards, Kohls, etc. and not find one. There was a news article a while back about Walmart and how they ended up forcing Master-lock(?) to start a Chinese line to get prices down. Friedman would say (if he were still alive) that consumers can correct that behavior by shopping at places that *do* carry the US made locks. But, the retail industry, unfortunately, follows Walmart because they know that Walmart has sufficient volume to highly impact the market for the goods they carry. Again, a problem with no easy solution because the usual give-and-take of the retail market is skewed so heavily by major retailers. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 8:45:38 AM EDT
[#26]
I don’t give one fuck what he does, I’ve got to get the current cocksucker out now.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 8:46:40 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: Not really. There are private businesses in China, but not private like what we have, they do answer to the CCP, pretty much everything does, but its not directly run by the minister of xyz like the soviets did it with scheduled production etc. My use of "capitalism with Chinese features" wasn't a mistake that's literally what they call their system. Or what Xi calls it. It is a hybrid. They are smart enough and know our system so well that they can see how to manipulate us within our own ideology. If for example we see free trade and comparative advantage as the basis for our economics they can subsidize targeted industries and concentrate all the productive capacity in the world to China. Then they have a monopoly on producing that item, giving them pricing power and even more concerning a major strategic advantage in global relations. Ship building, rare earth's, steel, computer chips,...etc. The free market economists ideals don't fare well when that starts to happen. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: Originally Posted By planemaker: I actually think they are old-school communists. Kissinger stupidly peddled the idea that if only we were to have trade with them, they'd suddenly become freedom-loving republicans. They were never going to become capitalists nor were they ever going to be remotely democratic. All businesses in China are owned by the CCP. And, the "principals" in those "businesses" serve at the pleasure of whichever dictator is currently at the top of the communist party heap. But they certainly have been exploiting the idiocy that passes for leadership in DC. My use of "capitalism with Chinese features" wasn't a mistake that's literally what they call their system. Or what Xi calls it. It is a hybrid. They are smart enough and know our system so well that they can see how to manipulate us within our own ideology. If for example we see free trade and comparative advantage as the basis for our economics they can subsidize targeted industries and concentrate all the productive capacity in the world to China. Then they have a monopoly on producing that item, giving them pricing power and even more concerning a major strategic advantage in global relations. Ship building, rare earth's, steel, computer chips,...etc. The free market economists ideals don't fare well when that starts to happen. Except *all* businesses are owned by the CCP and the principals in those businesses are more-or-less appointed by the CCP and they can be replaced at any moment. What free market folks (which I consider myself one) have to understand is that ChinaIsAsshoe does not believe in free trade, they believe in world domination and they are willing to use economic warfare to achieve it. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 8:49:24 AM EDT
[#28]
Did the last Trump tariffs did us any good?
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 8:50:28 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: Every business in the world wants to Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By xd341: Originally Posted By batmanacw: I've been scouring the internet for USA made drill bits to round out my selection in my hobby machine shop. Now, I've drilled thousands of quality holes with Chinese drill bits bit now I'm able to afford to buy better quality American drill bits over time. Part of the reason I can afford USA made drill bits is the fact that so many other consumer goods like electronics and appliances are inexpensive. That frees up money for to buy better stuff in my shop. Make all those goods more expensive as part of a trade war and now I might not have the disposable income to buy those American made tools. I might have to downgrade back down to Chinese drill bits on the bigger sizes because the economic environment doesn't allow it anymore. Unintended consequences of those who think they can control the market. BTW. Every time you buy American over Chinese is proof the market still works. Some American company brought you a product of acceptable quality at a price you were willing to pay. It doesn't matter that China cheats. They are still part of that market. Every business in the world wants to FIFY. Businesses don't want to destroy their competition, they want to make more money. It's when businesses forget they exist solely to make a profit that they get into trouble (anti-competitive practices ala Microsoft, DEI crap, etc.) |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 8:52:58 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GeneralDisaray: 100% this. Many dont realize it because they just dont operate in Manufacturing. As someone that does...let me educate you. One might think that the current tariff would tax COMPLETE goods but allow individual components such as packaging materials, screws etc. to pass through untaxed to dissuade someone from manufacturing in china and moving the acutal manufacturing to the USA RIght? WRONG - right now if I were to move base parts I am taxed at 25%. If I assemble those parts 100% in china to the point of ready to sell, I do not get taxed on the same goods. Whine, cry, say I am wrong all you want but it is fact, it has been reviewed by Several law firms. I eat, live, and breath this every day. The Tariffs have done nothing other than bolster our manufacturing in china (when we are actually trying to move it to the US) and give the gov more money. Period. For the record 2x trump voter here but either he doesnt understand what hes doing or its by design. I lean to the latter. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GeneralDisaray: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Fucking stupid. Only a complete economic illiterate can support that. Much of what is built here has Chinese components. We will all pay billions in new taxes in the form of higher prices due to tariffs paid to the government. The higher prices are not helping anyone but to feed the government more money and power. 100% this. Many dont realize it because they just dont operate in Manufacturing. As someone that does...let me educate you. One might think that the current tariff would tax COMPLETE goods but allow individual components such as packaging materials, screws etc. to pass through untaxed to dissuade someone from manufacturing in china and moving the acutal manufacturing to the USA RIght? WRONG - right now if I were to move base parts I am taxed at 25%. If I assemble those parts 100% in china to the point of ready to sell, I do not get taxed on the same goods. Whine, cry, say I am wrong all you want but it is fact, it has been reviewed by Several law firms. I eat, live, and breath this every day. The Tariffs have done nothing other than bolster our manufacturing in china (when we are actually trying to move it to the US) and give the gov more money. Period. For the record 2x trump voter here but either he doesnt understand what hes doing or its by design. I lean to the latter. But that's true of goods in general. The more hands components and sub-components go thru before it's integrated into the final product, the more expensive the final product will be regardless of tariffs. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 8:56:33 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: The rules are always a result of crony capitalism and corruption. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By GeneralDisaray: Originally Posted By xd341: Originally Posted By GeneralDisaray: 100% this. Many dont realize it because they just dont operate in Manufacturing. As someone that does...let me educate you. One might think that the current tariff would tax COMPLETE goods but allow individual components such as packaging materials, screws etc. to pass through untaxed to dissuade someone from manufacturing in china and moving the acutal manufacturing to the USA RIght? WRONG - right now if I were to move base parts I am taxed at 25%. If I assemble those parts 100% in china to the point of ready to sell, I do not get taxed on the same goods. Whine, cry, say I am wrong all you want but it is fact, it has been reviewed by Several law firms. I eat, live, and breath this every day. The Tariffs have done nothing other than bolster our manufacturing in china (when we are actually trying to move it to the US) and give the gov more money. Period. For the record 2x trump voter here but either he doesnt understand what hes doing or its by design. I lean to the latter. There is a reason NAFTA got trashed. China and others were exploiting loop holes by trans-shipping tariffed goods through Mexico to evade the tariff. Just to be clear - I am not blaming trump here I am simply highlight the tariffs are not accomplishing anything that is of desire. Secondly in my example, there isnt a loop hole being used. The actual law is fucking somoene trying to do what the gov is publicly saying they are trying to help and honestly is helping china LOL. There is no reason for them to use a loop hole lol. Only place I can fault trump is if you stand on a box stating a primary goal of your presidency is XYZ - you sure as shit better understand XYZ to make the meaningful impact and not be fucked by the lawmakers. The rules are always a result of crony capitalism and corruption. Not always but far, far too often. And, things like the big bank bailout after the 2008 financial crisis was (and is still) "moral hazard" writ large. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 8:58:11 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: No offense but your solution is more government corruption. Mine is to take the gloves off our business. Let the people make their own choices. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By xd341: Originally Posted By batmanacw: The US subsidizes lots of our businesses. It's only wrong when we have to compete with it. This isn't econ 101. I know you loved that class and the world made so much sense after...but the world is complex and messy. It's good to have principals, but when you have an enemy, and that enemy is taking advantage of your rigid principals, it's time for a new plan. Make good deals with honest brokers. I have no problem with that. Making bad deals with scum bags that want to destroy our nation? Yeah that's fucking dumb. No offense but your solution is more government corruption. Mine is to take the gloves off our business. Let the people make their own choices. No, your solution is to surrender to the very country that is waging economic (and other) warfare against us. That is patently the wrong choice. |
|
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 9:05:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: GeneralDisaray]
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By planemaker: But that's true of goods in general. The more hands components and sub-components go thru before it's integrated into the final product, the more expensive the final product will be regardless of tariffs. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By planemaker: Originally Posted By GeneralDisaray: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Fucking stupid. Only a complete economic illiterate can support that. Much of what is built here has Chinese components. We will all pay billions in new taxes in the form of higher prices due to tariffs paid to the government. The higher prices are not helping anyone but to feed the government more money and power. 100% this. Many dont realize it because they just dont operate in Manufacturing. As someone that does...let me educate you. One might think that the current tariff would tax COMPLETE goods but allow individual components such as packaging materials, screws etc. to pass through untaxed to dissuade someone from manufacturing in china and moving the acutal manufacturing to the USA RIght? WRONG - right now if I were to move base parts I am taxed at 25%. If I assemble those parts 100% in china to the point of ready to sell, I do not get taxed on the same goods. Whine, cry, say I am wrong all you want but it is fact, it has been reviewed by Several law firms. I eat, live, and breath this every day. The Tariffs have done nothing other than bolster our manufacturing in china (when we are actually trying to move it to the US) and give the gov more money. Period. For the record 2x trump voter here but either he doesnt understand what hes doing or its by design. I lean to the latter. But that's true of goods in general. The more hands components and sub-components go thru before it's integrated into the final product, the more expensive the final product will be regardless of tariffs. Now you are talking apples and oranges. Final cost sure...maybe. We are talking Tariffs here and the cold hard fact is components that would move manufacturing into the US are taxed at 25%. Finished goods - 0%. So I can buy a finished good at net 0 Manufactured in the US is immediately +25% plus the cost of US Manufacturing. |
|
|
NJ, USA
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 9:09:06 AM EDT
[#34]
Do people here really think China or even the EU doesn't tax our goods going into their countries? Unless you're being paid off, laws and policies you put forth should benefit YOUR country. To go back to an older post, we buy machined parts from Taiwan for less than we can buy the steel. This happened because some countries are playing to win, and most of the time we aren't.
Is it a coincidence how China is cornering the market on Lithium while the US is having electric cars jammed down our throats? If gas was the price it was 4 years ago they wouldn't be that appealing. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 9:21:59 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: No offense but your solution is more government corruption. Mine is to take the gloves off our business. Let the people make their own choices. I'm all for abolishing the EPA and OSHA and unions and letting Milton freedmans ideas lose to do their inevitable magic. In a perfect world he's right. In a perfect world everyone plays fair and benefits. This isn't a perfect world. In the mean time we can't build enough arms to fight a proxy war between two hobos on the edge of one of the largest economies on the planet. South Korea has to help US shipyards build boats. Globalism apparently wasn't designed to solve every problem. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 9:25:03 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By planemaker: Except *all* businesses are owned by the CCP and the principals in those businesses are more-or-less appointed by the CCP and they can be replaced at any moment. What free market folks (which I consider myself one) have to understand is that ChinaIsAsshoe does not believe in free trade, they believe in world domination and they are willing to use economic warfare to achieve it. They used to be. Now they don't need to be, not because China doesn't have enormous influence, but because the ccp has so much control that they literally don't need an ownership stake. That's not to say the ccp couldn't cease your business and disappear you at will. |
|
|
|
MI, USA
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 9:29:39 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bigger_Hammer: Tell us all how you don't understand Tariffs... Tariffs are a Import Tax that is eventually passed on to be paid by the Consumer, unless some company in the production line chooses to eat those additional costs reducing their profit or capital for expansion or upgrading. Tariffs may not be the Root cause of inflation (over supply of money chasing an undersupply of items) but price increases of over previous items due to price increases because of Tariffs most definitely increases inflationary pressures & numbers. The Japanese brought production facilities to the USA because Reagan threatened them with IMPORTATION limits on the number of Japanese vehicles imported into the USA so the Japanese solution was to build plants & vehicles in the USA to get around the IMPORTATION Quota and they could then build huge numbers of Camrys, Corollas, Civics & Accords and the US couldn't do fuck all about it. "American" factory, building "American" cars & the profits flow out & right back to Japan. Want to know why Americans can't buy the legendary Toyota HiLux pick up truck? Tariffs (the so called "Chicken Tax") on imported Japanese light trucks. And Ford, GM, Chrysler & others moved a lot of formerly US automotive production to Mexico over the years, taking away American Jobs in American Cities without any fear of "Tariff's" because of NAFTA & Trump's own USMCA trade agreement on North American (Mexico, US or Canadian) production . Did your new Mexican made pickup truck get Cheaper to buy in the USA? No? The Company just made more profit off of it since lower labor costs for same or higher price = or maybe you "negotiated" $500 off the sticker price... (which they could easily afford to do if they saved $3500 using Mexican labor) Tariffs are a short term targeted tool, but of America to really bring industry back to the USA, the need for Congress & the President to update the Tax Codes & Legislation that currently still favors & rewarding the exporting of American jobs, instead of financially punishing those who send American jobs overseas. Bigger_Hammer You have a very rudimentary understanding of economics |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 9:50:28 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: No. They aren't. They used to be. Now they don't need to be, not because China doesn't have enormous influence, but because the ccp has so much control that they literally don't need an ownership stake. That's not to say the ccp couldn't cease your business and disappear you at will. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: Originally Posted By planemaker: Except *all* businesses are owned by the CCP and the principals in those businesses are more-or-less appointed by the CCP and they can be replaced at any moment. What free market folks (which I consider myself one) have to understand is that ChinaIsAsshoe does not believe in free trade, they believe in world domination and they are willing to use economic warfare to achieve it. They used to be. Now they don't need to be, not because China doesn't have enormous influence, but because the ccp has so much control that they literally don't need an ownership stake. That's not to say the ccp couldn't cease your business and disappear you at will. Again, *all* businesses are owned by the CCP. They may give businesses more or less "autonomy" but every single one of them is ultimately owned by the CCP (ie, they can be closed, new person brought in to run it, change how much "tax" (really vig) they owe, etc.). Many, many businesses found out that they do not, in fact, own what they have in ChinaIsAsshoe. Even 3M, as large as they are, found out when the CCP decided they needed more masks, they just took over the 3M plant there and seized all their inventory as well. This is the basic problem with trying to deal with a communist dictatorship country using free-trade rules. It cannot (and does not) work. |
|
|
|
VA, USA
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 10:17:06 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: Fucking stupid. Only a complete economic illiterate can support that. Much of what is built here has Chinese components. We will all pay billions in new taxes in the form of higher prices due to tariffs paid to the government. The higher prices are not helping anyone but to feed the government more money and power. The idea is to pair tariffs on foreign items while simultaneously offering tax breaks for domestic products and manufacturing, incentivize increased domestic production. I’d lean towards large tax incentives to invest in companies building factories to produce domestic alternatives to specialty items only made overseas. Chips would probably be the big one. These changes would also benefit from reductions to the dumbassery of the EPA and whatnot that make it difficult to mine resources available here in the US. As for rare earth elements… Doesn’t Mexico have shitloads of various elements that have never really had much effort put into mining them? I’d think an arrangement could be made that would be considerably less of a risk than having to work around china’s backyard. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 10:21:24 AM EDT
[#40]
Free trade isn't free, it has costs beyond just the price of goods.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 10:47:39 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By planemaker: Again, *all* businesses are owned by the CCP. They may give businesses more or less "autonomy" but every single one of them is ultimately owned by the CCP (ie, they can be closed, new person brought in to run it, change how much "tax" (really vig) they owe, etc.). Many, many businesses found out that they do not, in fact, own what they have in ChinaIsAsshoe. Even 3M, as large as they are, found out when the CCP decided they needed more masks, they just took over the 3M plant there and seized all their inventory as well. This is the basic problem with trying to deal with a communist dictatorship country using free-trade rules. It cannot (and does not) work. |
|
|
|
AZ, USA
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 10:48:03 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By redfish86: Good Build shit in America. Fuck chy na Someone PLEASE explain to me how unions wouldn’t be onboard by supporting a POTUS who would bring more work to this country they're Demonrat mafia vote making machines...that's how...also useless as fuck |
|
|
AZ, USA
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 10:49:03 AM EDT
[#43]
cut income tax to zero...
Feds and states can live off of Tarrifs...like they used to |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 11:44:51 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By planemaker: No, your solution is to surrender to the very country that is waging economic (and other) warfare against us. That is patently the wrong choice. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By planemaker: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By xd341: Originally Posted By batmanacw: The US subsidizes lots of our businesses. It's only wrong when we have to compete with it. This isn't econ 101. I know you loved that class and the world made so much sense after...but the world is complex and messy. It's good to have principals, but when you have an enemy, and that enemy is taking advantage of your rigid principals, it's time for a new plan. Make good deals with honest brokers. I have no problem with that. Making bad deals with scum bags that want to destroy our nation? Yeah that's fucking dumb. No offense but your solution is more government corruption. Mine is to take the gloves off our business. Let the people make their own choices. No, your solution is to surrender to the very country that is waging economic (and other) warfare against us. That is patently the wrong choice. You will not even consider any free market solutions. Only big government can fix it in your mind. You think we cannot compete with China but we do and we win on tons of products. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 11:50:06 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: I understand, and the little libertarian inside agrees. But Santa isn't real, he doesn't come down the chimney and the changes required to make your idea actually work are less likely than a fat guy bearing gifts conducting B&E on a global scale in one night. I'm all for abolishing the EPA and OSHA and unions and letting Milton freedmans ideas lose to do their inevitable magic. In a perfect world he's right. In a perfect world everyone plays fair and benefits. This isn't a perfect world. In the mean time we can't build enough arms to fight a proxy war between two hobos on the edge of one of the largest economies on the planet. South Korea has to help US shipyards build boats. Globalism apparently wasn't designed to solve every problem. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: Originally Posted By batmanacw: No offense but your solution is more government corruption. Mine is to take the gloves off our business. Let the people make their own choices. I'm all for abolishing the EPA and OSHA and unions and letting Milton freedmans ideas lose to do their inevitable magic. In a perfect world he's right. In a perfect world everyone plays fair and benefits. This isn't a perfect world. In the mean time we can't build enough arms to fight a proxy war between two hobos on the edge of one of the largest economies on the planet. South Korea has to help US shipyards build boats. Globalism apparently wasn't designed to solve every problem. Free markets are not globalism. The market transcends borders and governments. It's not a fairytale. You live it inspite of the government interference. You just don't see it. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 11:51:45 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rb889: The idea is to pair tariffs on foreign items while simultaneously offering tax breaks for domestic products and manufacturing, incentivize increased domestic production. I’d lean towards large tax incentives to invest in companies building factories to produce domestic alternatives to specialty items only made overseas. Chips would probably be the big one. These changes would also benefit from reductions to the dumbassery of the EPA and whatnot that make it difficult to mine resources available here in the US. As for rare earth elements… Doesn’t Mexico have shitloads of various elements that have never really had much effort put into mining them? I’d think an arrangement could be made that would be considerably less of a risk than having to work around china’s backyard. We have more rare earth elements than China but Biden is an asshole..... |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 11:54:39 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: You will not even consider any free market solutions. Only big government can fix it in your mind. You think we cannot compete with China but we do and we win on tons of products. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By planemaker: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By xd341: Originally Posted By batmanacw: The US subsidizes lots of our businesses. It's only wrong when we have to compete with it. This isn't econ 101. I know you loved that class and the world made so much sense after...but the world is complex and messy. It's good to have principals, but when you have an enemy, and that enemy is taking advantage of your rigid principals, it's time for a new plan. Make good deals with honest brokers. I have no problem with that. Making bad deals with scum bags that want to destroy our nation? Yeah that's fucking dumb. No offense but your solution is more government corruption. Mine is to take the gloves off our business. Let the people make their own choices. No, your solution is to surrender to the very country that is waging economic (and other) warfare against us. That is patently the wrong choice. You will not even consider any free market solutions. Only big government can fix it in your mind. You think we cannot compete with China but we do and we win on tons of products. You cannot use a free-market solution on a communist dictatorship state actor. It cannot work by definition. Your steadfast refusal to acknowledge this is bordering on trolling now. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 11:56:03 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cmmeur01: Maybe we could you know… build those components here? Guess that’s just fucking stupid too? We need to start building back the manufacturing sector here at some point (shoulda never left but the FIRE types run the show). Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cmmeur01: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Fucking stupid. Only a complete economic illiterate can support that. Much of what is built here has Chinese components. We will all pay billions in new taxes in the form of higher prices due to tariffs paid to the government. The higher prices are not helping anyone but to feed the government more money and power. Maybe we could you know… build those components here? Guess that’s just fucking stupid too? We need to start building back the manufacturing sector here at some point (shoulda never left but the FIRE types run the show). You don't put tariffs in place if you can manufacture the same stuff here. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 11:57:52 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: Free markets are not globalism. The market transcends borders and governments. It's not a fairytale. You live it inspite of the government interference. You just don't see it. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By xd341: Originally Posted By batmanacw: No offense but your solution is more government corruption. Mine is to take the gloves off our business. Let the people make their own choices. I'm all for abolishing the EPA and OSHA and unions and letting Milton freedmans ideas lose to do their inevitable magic. In a perfect world he's right. In a perfect world everyone plays fair and benefits. This isn't a perfect world. In the mean time we can't build enough arms to fight a proxy war between two hobos on the edge of one of the largest economies on the planet. South Korea has to help US shipyards build boats. Globalism apparently wasn't designed to solve every problem. Free markets are not globalism. The market transcends borders and governments. It's not a fairytale. You live it inspite of the government interference. You just don't see it. However, more precisely, the global "market" is not a free market in the traditional sense. It does not transcend borders and/or governments. Those borders and/or governments only *ALLOW* that which they see as beneficial to their national interests. Some governments are better at that than others. Some governments (like ChinaIsAsshoe) only want "free trade" to go one way. You are living in fantasy land if you cannot see that. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 11:58:18 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: You will not even consider any free market solutions. Only big government can fix it in your mind. You think we cannot compete with China but we do and we win on tons of products. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By planemaker: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By xd341: Originally Posted By batmanacw: The US subsidizes lots of our businesses. It's only wrong when we have to compete with it. This isn't econ 101. I know you loved that class and the world made so much sense after...but the world is complex and messy. It's good to have principals, but when you have an enemy, and that enemy is taking advantage of your rigid principals, it's time for a new plan. Make good deals with honest brokers. I have no problem with that. Making bad deals with scum bags that want to destroy our nation? Yeah that's fucking dumb. No offense but your solution is more government corruption. Mine is to take the gloves off our business. Let the people make their own choices. No, your solution is to surrender to the very country that is waging economic (and other) warfare against us. That is patently the wrong choice. You will not even consider any free market solutions. Only big government can fix it in your mind. You think we cannot compete with China but we do and we win on tons of products. There is no free market on the global stage. Once again, as close to writing it in crayon as I can get for you: There is no free market on the global stage. With that in mind, would you rather level the playing field with countries that want to destroy us, or spread you ass cheeks further? |
|
|
|
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
