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Posted: 4/28/2024 2:12:19 PM EDT
[#1]
Globalism ruined the US
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Posted: 4/28/2024 2:17:47 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By USCG_CPO: Are these Koreans ship builders? I have worked in this industry for years and have crawled all through foreign built ships, I know what kind of quality is out there. I will simply say other countries have far outpaced the US, we are so far behind it will be hard to ever catch up. Now I will sit back and watch all the arfcom experts. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By USCG_CPO: Originally Posted By glimmerman68: The Koreans I work with can barely run a welder, they can't run a mill or lathe. Do you really expect me to believe Koreans can get shipyard running   Are these Koreans ship builders? I have worked in this industry for years and have crawled all through foreign built ships, I know what kind of quality is out there. I will simply say other countries have far outpaced the US, we are so far behind it will be hard to ever catch up. Now I will sit back and watch all the arfcom experts. The South Koreans are in the top 3 globally for tonnage built per year. We are barely a blip. You don't get good at something by not doing it, and conversely you generally don't suck at a thing you do all the time. If we wish to remain a relevant naval power in the future, we have to find a way to return to commercial domestic ship building so that we have deep pools of talent and technical expertise to draw from when it comes time to spool up for war. |
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Posted: 4/28/2024 2:33:17 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By USCG_CPO: A lot can be blamed on unions and corrupt industrial complex. Even the Philly shipyard isn't what it used to be, it is now owned by the Norwegian firm, Aker. We haven't invested in ship building in decades and what we do build is shit. It takes a long time to work the bugs out and even then, sometimes the ships are just laid up permanently cause they don't work. Just think, in 1944 our shipyards could turn out a liberty ship in just 42 days. The boats being built today are SLIGHTLY more complex than a liberty ship. |
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Posted: 4/28/2024 3:09:49 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By OregonShooter: The boats being built today are SLIGHTLY more complex than a liberty ship. I of all people know this, I was making a point. Hand the schematics of a Liberty ship to one of our yards today and even with better, more modern equipment they couldn't come close to building one in a month, 6 months or even 12 months. We have lost so much industrial manufacturing/knowledge in the maritime sector, I don't see us ever getting it back. As the other poster stated, even ships being "built" here in the US are getting help from overseas. |
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Posted: 4/28/2024 3:20:36 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Haub: Pretty sure Hyundai has their own metal foundries and forging factories. So basically its all done "in house". Automotive, marine, industrial equipment, outside buyers etc. |
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Posted: 4/28/2024 3:23:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 762xIAN]
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By glimmerman68: The Koreans I work with can barely run a welder, they can't run a mill or lathe. Do you really expect me to believe Koreans can get shipyard running What are you even talking about? South Korean heavy industry is probably better right now than Japan's. Let alone S.Korea has a shipbuilding industry. The Korean engineers seemed pretty capable at the many pumps they built/supplied for my last power plant construction project. Not talking sump pumps here, but our 1500 HP high pressure boiler feed pumps.  Oh wait, is it because of the small stature and slanty eyes? |
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Posted: 4/28/2024 3:30:48 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: If you want to serve your country right now but don't want to join the military? Learn to weld. Seriously, our shipyards desperately need skilled welders right now. Great pay as well. |
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Posted: 4/28/2024 3:32:32 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: Eastcoast welders get ridiculous pay. Back when I living in Pennsylvania, welders in Pittsburgh were easily making 60-80 dollars an hours. That was like 2011 money.  |
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Posted: 4/28/2024 4:11:39 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By midcap: Yeah I really have no idea why TF they started shit with Russia TBH. Someone from the US visited Russia and convinced them that Germany was prepared to move on Russia. Russia moved to defend and then Germany was convinced Russia was prepared to move on Germany. They had to get it on. This may not be 100% as I am remembering from years ago but that is the jest of it . |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 4/28/2024 4:17:23 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By hp6: I would like to know the details of how they can do this. Why do we have problems with getting materials and they dont? During his recent Sea Air Space speech, Del Toro further praised South Korea and commended Japan, saying both Pacific allies could build high-quality ships on time, on budget, and often at a fraction of the cost. https://www.ar15.com/forums/manageReply.html?b=1&f=5&t=2721836&tl=South-Korean-shipbuilder-to-assist-Philly-shipyard&r=&page=1 They produce more steel for ships than we do, since we build 1-2 merchant ships a year and they build 1-2 a day. |
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Posted: 4/28/2024 4:19:22 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: If you want to serve your country right now but don't want to join the military? Learn to weld. Seriously, our shipyards desperately need skilled welders right now. Great pay as well. Brenner Tank in Wisconsin has been advertising forever looking for Welders. $26/hr. They tried farming out work to Mexico who fucked all kinds of stuff up. Robots didn't save there ass either. Heaven forbid you pay a real wage to craftsman producing a quality product. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 4/28/2024 4:21:39 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ruin: Modern naval ships are far more complex in 2024 than 1943. It’s also worth noting you chose to use ‘44 as an example and not ‘41. Marines on Guadalcanal were mostly armed with 1903’s because the M1 was unobtanium. US production for most anything at the start of the war was absolutely not what it was in ‘44. If you want to use the WWII analogy of the world's greatest industrial power turning to military production and outproducing everyone else you should consider that, today, that would be China, not us. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 4/28/2024 4:25:56 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HIMARS13A: If you want to use the WWII analogy of the world's greatest industrial power turning to military production and outproducing everyone else you should consider that, today, that would be China, not us. Yeah, the idea that we could ramp production up quickly in an emergency is laughable. The war will be long over before they finish the environmental impact statement to build a new shipyard. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 4/28/2024 4:28:57 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Shadowgrouse: Yeah, the idea that we could ramp production up quickly in an emergency is laughable. The war will be long over before they finish the environmental impact statement to build a new shipyard. I would expect a scramble to catch up that involved suspending a lot of regs, but it won't matter. Getting production lined up takes a long time. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 4/28/2024 4:33:30 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ruin: Arfcom acts as if nothing notable took place in WW2 until 1944 when the U.S. really started whipping some ass. It took between 6-12 months to repair some of the ships after Pearl Harbor; I’m sure our modern fleet would take awhile as well. The Pacific Theater was a fucking mess. We lost a series of battles and territory as Japan raced across the ocean. Our Aircraft Carrier operations were a learning process and our planes often outmatched by Japanese aircraft. Its good the USN made a deal with Korean Ship builders, the first island chain isn’t too close to Philly. We don't have teh salvage capability that we did in 1941-1942. We wouldn't be able to refloat all those ships today. Look at the bridge in Baltimore and how long that is going to take. |
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Posted: 4/28/2024 4:56:28 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ruin: Modern naval ships are far more complex in 2024 than 1943. It’s also worth noting you chose to use ‘44 as an example and not ‘41. Marines on Guadalcanal were mostly armed with 1903’s because the M1 was unobtanium. US production for most anything at the start of the war was absolutely not what it was in ‘44. Marines used the 03s because they wanted to. They decided later to switch to the M1. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/28/2024 5:17:43 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cone256: Globalism ruined the US |
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Posted: 4/28/2024 5:28:33 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HIMARS13A: If you want to use the WWII analogy of the world's greatest industrial power turning to military production and outproducing everyone else you should consider that, today, that would be China, not us. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HIMARS13A: Originally Posted By Ruin: Modern naval ships are far more complex in 2024 than 1943. It’s also worth noting you chose to use ‘44 as an example and not ‘41. Marines on Guadalcanal were mostly armed with 1903’s because the M1 was unobtanium. US production for most anything at the start of the war was absolutely not what it was in ‘44. If you want to use the WWII analogy of the world's greatest industrial power turning to military production and outproducing everyone else you should consider that, today, that would be China, not us. Yet they can’t make anything of quality or substance, ever. Mass producing absolute garbage creates problems for us but I don’t think it’s “the” deciding factor. This Great Power Competition stuff is great to prepare for but I don’t think we’re taking into account for the low quality China is infamous for. We spent decades fretting about the Bear; now look at them. The only thing China is good at is theft of IP which they can’t even duplicate when compared to the original source. Alternatively, maybe you’re spot on and we lose. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 4/28/2024 5:30:53 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ruin: Yet they can’t make anything of quality or substance, ever. Mass producing absolute garbage creates problems for us but I don’t think it’s “the” deciding factor. This Great Power Competition stuff is great to prepare for but I don’t think we’re taking into account for the low quality China is infamous for. We spent decades fretting about the Bear; now look at them. The only thing China is good at is theft of IP which they can’t even duplicate when compared to the original source. Alternatively, maybe you’re spot on and we lose. Every manufacturer I've known that sourced a part from the Chinese said they can build things just as well as Americans. They do it for the prototype that they send to get your order, and then they cut every corner they can find. But what if they don't cut those corners on their own production? They are building more ships and munitions than we are, by a lot, and they have more civilian capacity that they can switch over if they need to. |
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Posted: 4/28/2024 5:32:43 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Marines used the 03s because they wanted to. They decided later to switch to the M1. Interesting, appreciate the correction. |
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Posted: 4/28/2024 6:02:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: USCG_CPO]
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ruin: Yet they can’t make anything of quality or substance, ever. Mass producing absolute garbage creates problems for us but I don’t think it’s “the” deciding factor. This Great Power Competition stuff is great to prepare for but I don’t think we’re taking into account for the low quality China is infamous for. We spent decades fretting about the Bear; now look at them. The only thing China is good at is theft of IP which they can’t even duplicate when compared to the original source. Alternatively, maybe you’re spot on and we lose. Have you ever been to a Chinese shipyard? Have you ever inspected from keel to bridge, bow to stern a commercially produced Chinese vessel? They build some of the best commercial ships in the world comparable to anything South Korea, Japan, Germany, etc. builds. Multi-billion dollar companies like Maersk, NYK, CMA CGM, MOL, etc., are not in the habit of buying shitty, poor-quality ships. It might hurt our American pride, but China builds fantastic commercial ships. The top three builders in the world are China, Japan, and South Korea. Something that is probably overlooked by people who don’t work in the Maritime industry is the fact that all of these foreign built ships go through a very strenuous inspection process. The Coast Guard has offices overseas in Asia and Europe, solely for the purpose of inspecting these foreign vessels. The flag states that register these vessels also inspect them. Countries have a classification societies that inspect the ships and for the big-name charterers, they have their own strenuous inspection process. I’m just putting this out there for those who are not familiar with shipbuilding in foreign countries, no matter what you might think about that country, they are not building garbage vessels, at least not for the commercial market. |
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Posted: 4/29/2024 8:08:07 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Kanati: Yeah, that was my take. The South Koreans are in the top 3 globally for tonnage built per year. We are barely a blip. You don't get good at something by not doing it, and conversely you generally don't suck at a thing you do all the time. If we wish to remain a relevant naval power in the future, we have to find a way to return to commercial domestic ship building so that we have deep pools of talent and technical expertise to draw from when it comes time to spool up for war. Japan and Korea really have a handle on the fundamentals, I'd expect that to carry into shipbuilding as well. The Chinese are also capable if not consistent |
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Posted: 4/29/2024 8:10:21 AM EDT
[#23]
So, the Koreans are going to learn union thug tactics and how to make their union bosses rich?
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MI, USA
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Posted: 4/29/2024 8:14:54 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By USCG_CPO: A lot can be blamed on unions and corrupt industrial complex. Even the Philly shipyard isn't what it used to be, it is now owned by the Norwegian firm, Aker. We haven't invested in ship building in decades and what we do build is shit. It takes a long time to work the bugs out and even then, sometimes the ships are just laid up permanently cause they don't work. Just think, in 1944 our shipyards could turn out a liberty ship in just 42 days. 4-10 days in some of the western shipyards |
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Posted: 4/29/2024 8:15:30 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sakohntr: Brenner Tank in Wisconsin has been advertising forever looking for Welders. $26/hr. They tried farming out work to Mexico who fucked all kinds of stuff up. Robots didn't save there ass either. Heaven forbid you pay a real wage to craftsman producing a quality product. $26/hr? That’s fuck you money. Really—FUCK YOU! 
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LA, USA
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Posted: 4/29/2024 8:20:41 AM EDT
[#26]
HHI is a top notch shipyard company. They built several FPSOs for us.
Very organized and schedule oriented. They are deep into the LNG carrier business now. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 4/29/2024 8:41:48 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HIMARS13A: I would expect a scramble to catch up that involved suspending a lot of regs, but it won't matter. Getting production lined up takes a long time. The environmental whackos will still keep things tied up in courts. |
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Posted: 4/29/2024 9:03:18 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sakohntr: Brenner Tank in Wisconsin has been advertising forever looking for Welders. $26/hr. They tried farming out work to Mexico who fucked all kinds of stuff up. Robots didn't save there ass either. Heaven forbid you pay a real wage to craftsman producing a quality product. They get to $50 an hour I'll consider it. $26 is $52,000 a year...... |
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Posted: 4/29/2024 9:10:11 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ras_al_ghul: It was done by design, and boomers doubled down on this plan every single time they had a chance to change course. They will continue to do so. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ras_al_ghul: Originally Posted By hp6: We used to be a manufacturing powerhouse. Now one chinese shipyard can out produce all the US shipyards combined. https://www.defense-aerospace.com/us-cant-keep-up-with-chinese-navy-shipbuilding/ https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2024-04-17/us-navy-shipbuilding-has-fallen-dangerously-behind It was done by design, and boomers doubled down on this plan every single time they had a chance to change course. They will continue to do so. Boomers, eh? Show your proof, or STFU. |
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Posted: 4/29/2024 10:11:16 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroE: Boomers, eh? Show your proof, or STFU. 
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Posted: 4/29/2024 12:01:12 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: well that escalated quickly Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: Originally Posted By AeroE: Boomers, eh? Show your proof, or STFU. That is likely to become my response to every comment I see about boomers. Except when the first word is boomers, then I'll post something like, "that's the signal you have nothing worth reading". |
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Posted: 4/29/2024 12:02:37 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroE: That is likely to become my response to every comment I see about boomers. Except when the first word is boomers, then I'll post something like, "that's the signal you have nothing worth reading". 
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Posted: 4/29/2024 12:06:20 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AA717driver: $26/hr? That’s fuck you money. Really—FUCK YOU! Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AA717driver: Originally Posted By sakohntr: Brenner Tank in Wisconsin has been advertising forever looking for Welders. $26/hr. They tried farming out work to Mexico who fucked all kinds of stuff up. Robots didn't save there ass either. Heaven forbid you pay a real wage to craftsman producing a quality product. $26/hr? That’s fuck you money. Really—FUCK YOU! ULINE is flying a warehouse material handler job locally that starts at $25 with decent benefits from what I’ve seen. I had to send it to my bosses when they asked why we’re were having trouble hiring people. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 4/29/2024 12:08:53 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GreenMushroom: The S Korean qc guys reaction when they show up /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/horror-233.jpg lol |
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Posted: 4/29/2024 12:15:07 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: China's shipyards are heavily subsidized. They can out compete everyone when their govt gives them a blank check. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: Originally Posted By lil_Sig: But arf said that the US ships were far superior to China's floating targets? China's shipyards are heavily subsidized. They can out compete everyone when their govt gives them a blank check. And do tell, who pays for the US shipyards? Have you seen the US military budget lately? US military budget: 825 billion for fiscal year 2024. Chinese military budget: 224 billion 2023 fiscal year. |
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Posted: 4/29/2024 12:21:13 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By delemorte: And do tell, who pays for the US shipyards? Have you seen the US military budget lately? US military budget: 825 billion for fiscal year 2024. Chinese military budget: 224 billion 2023 fiscal year. 
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Posted: 4/29/2024 12:36:45 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: well that escalated quickly There is absolutely zero reasons in the world why the screeching retards need to derail every fucking thread. |
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VI, USA
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Posted: 4/29/2024 12:37:22 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NEXT23: They get to $50 an hour I'll consider it. $26 is $52,000 a year...... Especially with the California $20.00 hour minimum wage just for being a mouth breather vs a welder which has training and OTJ experience. Any welder won't get out of bed for $26.00 hour. |
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Posted: 4/29/2024 1:36:57 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: The entire chinese economy is essentially subsidized. So it's tough to draw a direct comparison...although deficit spending is basically similar here... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: Originally Posted By delemorte: And do tell, who pays for the US shipyards? Have you seen the US military budget lately? US military budget: 825 billion for fiscal year 2024. Chinese military budget: 224 billion 2023 fiscal year.  USA . How much do you think the US Air Force is paying for that bag of ball bearings? |
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Posted: 4/29/2024 1:55:00 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KiloBravo: But, but, but …Unions … Continuing to hamstring this country per usual. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 4/29/2024 1:59:43 PM EDT
[#41]
We even had a Russian built ship in our Naval logistics fleet until recently. Our shipyards are in sad shape.
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GA, USA
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Posted: 4/29/2024 2:00:44 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Haub: Pretty sure Hyundai has their own metal foundries and forging factories. So basically its all done "in house". Automotive, marine, industrial equipment, outside buyers etc. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Haub: Originally Posted By hp6: I would like to know the details of how they can do this. Why do we have problems with getting materials and they dont? During his recent Sea Air Space speech, Del Toro further praised South Korea and commended Japan, saying both Pacific allies could build high-quality ships on time, on budget, and often at a fraction of the cost. https://www.ar15.com/forums/manageReply.html?b=1&f=5&t=2721836&tl=South-Korean-shipbuilder-to-assist-Philly-shipyard&r=&page=1 Pretty sure Hyundai has their own metal foundries and forging factories. So basically its all done "in house". Automotive, marine, industrial equipment, outside buyers etc. I read somewhere when Hyundai first started importing cars to the US that the only part of their cars that wasn't made in a Hyundai plant was the diaphragm for the mechanical fuel pumps. No idea if that was true but they are a huge conglomerate and are into multiple industries. |
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Posted: 4/29/2024 2:09:15 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HIMARS13A: We don't have teh salvage capability that we did in 1941-1942. We wouldn't be able to refloat all those ships today. Look at the bridge in Baltimore and how long that is going to take. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HIMARS13A: Originally Posted By Ruin: Arfcom acts as if nothing notable took place in WW2 until 1944 when the U.S. really started whipping some ass. It took between 6-12 months to repair some of the ships after Pearl Harbor; I'm sure our modern fleet would take awhile as well. The Pacific Theater was a fucking mess. We lost a series of battles and territory as Japan raced across the ocean. Our Aircraft Carrier operations were a learning process and our planes often outmatched by Japanese aircraft. Its good the USN made a deal with Korean Ship builders, the first island chain isn't too close to Philly. We don't have teh salvage capability that we did in 1941-1942. We wouldn't be able to refloat all those ships today. Look at the bridge in Baltimore and how long that is going to take. The people currently building warships like that ain't us. |
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Posted: 5/8/2024 11:57:20 PM EDT
[#44]
I think this is a bad idea. So close to Commie hackers and drones
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Posted: 5/9/2024 12:08:29 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By midcap: Yeah I really have no idea why TF they started shit with Russia TBH. Because that was the entire cornerstone of their leader’s plan for Germany? He even wrote a fucking book. |
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