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Posted: 5/1/2024 9:54:18 AM EDT
[#1]
They should level up and use trampolines.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 9:54:41 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lazyengineer: Don't you just put a small pre-warhead on your munition to blast through l, and the main body passes through that hole to impact? These add ons are to protect from the warheads the Ukrainians are using in their FPV drones. They usually use an RPG 7 grenade or a home made shape charge. Distance is what they're going after with these modifications, distance will mitigate the effectiveness of those shaped charges. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 9:56:34 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fadedsun: The Russians originally intended them to stop javelins. That didn't work. That's why we mock them. They still don't stop drones. This, that was their Javelin solution and it was pretty bad at it. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 9:56:57 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By johnh57: Ukraine will next add sticky stuff to their bomblets. Make a hole in the sheet metal with a sticky bomb, then drop the next one. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 9:58:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Mal_means_bad]
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By The_Master_Shake: That's not accurate at all. The IDF isn't dumb and they've adopted this https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/132893/idf-merkava-mk-3-tank-with-a-new-probabl-3202619.JPG  Attached File |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 10:03:20 AM EDT
[#6]
If it's stupid but it works....
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Posted: 5/1/2024 10:06:39 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By The_Master_Shake: That's not accurate at all. The IDF isn't dumb and they've adopted this https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/132893/idf-merkava-mk-3-tank-with-a-new-probabl-3202619.JPG Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By The_Master_Shake: Originally Posted By fadedsun: The Russians originally intended them to stop javelins. That didn't work. That's why we mock them. They still don't stop drones. That's not accurate at all. The IDF isn't dumb and they've adopted this https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/132893/idf-merkava-mk-3-tank-with-a-new-probabl-3202619.JPG It's more against makeshift drones with handgrenades or 40mm strapped to them and less against shaped charges let alone tandem charges. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 10:13:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: The_Master_Shake]
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By iggy1337: It's more against makeshift drones with handgrenades or 40mm strapped to them and less against shaped charges let alone tandem charges. Agreed. And when you see the cope cages expanded beyond the top it's to deal with FPV drones targeting weak points. These cages will be on any military vehicle worth their salt in the future, it's not limited to tanks |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 10:27:23 AM EDT
[#9]
But the tool shed armor they've added makes it 80%+ less effective as a tank, so what's the point? It appears to be a bad trade off since the majority of tanks are still mobility killed by mines before drones set them on fire after they're disabled. The Ukrainians are likely to use thermite on the sheet metal covering the engine deck or bigger shaped charges to mitigate most of the value of the armor anyway.
WWII British aircraft carriers are praised for having armored decks that made them more survivable, but the giant design tradeoff was much smaller hangars that cut their airwings in half and prevented them from upgrading to larger jets after the war - they could take a punch, but they couldn't do aircraft carrier things, so taking a punch or not was a moot point. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 11:18:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: The_Master_Shake]
[#10]
So it took me a bit to find it but this dropped about a week back on Willy OAM
The drones are proving to be such a issue that Russia is throwing cages around entire APC's to deal with FPV drones targeting the weak spots. Willy talks about this in depth in his video as there is a clear trade off here (especially when troops are trying to gtfo) but the FPV drones are such an issue this is the new trade off  Attached FileCould only find a link on Reddit (outside of sites i wont link here) so here's the thread for those interested in more context. Again expect to see more of this. https://www.reddit.com/r/shittytechnicals/comments/1ccwkkb/russian_apc_with_yard_fencing_cage_for_drone/ |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 11:22:27 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mal_means_bad: But the tool shed armor they've added makes it 80%+ less effective as a tank, so what's the point? It appears to be a bad trade off since the majority of tanks are still mobility killed by mines before drones set them on fire after they're disabled. The Ukrainians are likely to use thermite on the sheet metal covering the engine deck or bigger shaped charges to mitigate most of the value of the armor anyway. WWII British aircraft carriers are praised for having armored decks that made them more survivable, but the giant design tradeoff was much smaller hangars that cut their airwings in half and prevented them from upgrading to larger jets after the war - they could take a punch, but they couldn't do aircraft carrier things, so taking a punch or not was a moot point. 80% less effective as a tank? 
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Posted: 5/1/2024 11:32:07 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GarandM1: Yep, Russia's going to run out of tanks any day now. And missiles and ammunition, too. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GarandM1: Originally Posted By governmentman: It's also panic and desperation from tank crews / units. Russian armor losses are astounding relative to the amount of ground being gained. Those at risk are doing anything they can to try and improve their chances, which is why you see so many absurd and unusual measures taken. Didn't say that. They have lost a fuckton, and have a fuckton more cold war leftovers to lose. I've been saying for over a year that this will drag on for months or years, and that a military knockout punch is beyond the capabilities of either side. |
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MA, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 11:57:52 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mal_means_bad: But the tool shed armor they've added makes it 80%+ less effective as a tank, so what's the point? It appears to be a bad trade off since the majority of tanks are still mobility killed by mines before drones set them on fire after they're disabled. The Ukrainians are likely to use thermite on the sheet metal covering the engine deck or bigger shaped charges to mitigate most of the value of the armor anyway. WWII British aircraft carriers are praised for having armored decks that made them more survivable, but the giant design tradeoff was much smaller hangars that cut their airwings in half and prevented them from upgrading to larger jets after the war - they could take a punch, but they couldn't do aircraft carrier things, so taking a punch or not was a moot point. Flying RPG's have made tanks less effective, the roof is just to give them enough time to drop troops off at a trench and maybe get away. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 12:06:56 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By The_Master_Shake: 80% less effective as a tank? Also I bet that scoop shape sucks up dirt like crazy, with nowhere for it to go. When it dries out it they'll probably disappear for five minutes in their own self generated dust cloud if they fire the gun, lol. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 12:11:44 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fadedsun: The Russians originally intended them to stop javelins. That didn't work. That's why we mock them. They still don't stop drones. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fadedsun: Originally Posted By The_Master_Shake: I remember reading the large Ukraine GD thread where the usual peanut gallery were laughing at the Russians for putting "Cuck Cages" on their tanks. Now it's just the standard for everyone, even the Israelis. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/132893/Screenshot_20240501_131508_Samsung_Inter-3202599.JPG The Russians originally intended them to stop javelins. That didn't work. That's why we mock them. They still don't stop drones. And they are called “Cope cages”…..not cuck. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 12:12:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ServusVeritatis]
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By The_Master_Shake: That's the terminology now, it wasn't back then (at least on the Chans when this was first discussed) Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By The_Master_Shake: Originally Posted By BillofRights: “Cope Cages”. For Coping, with drones. And yeah, when a drone can drop a grenade through your hatch at any time, you kinda need some overhead cover at a bare minimum. That's the terminology now, it wasn't back then (at least on the Chans when this was first discussed) You were talking about the big thread here. I’ve been in it since the start and they have always been called cope cages. They were developed before drones even started showing up in a big way and were a failed attempt to mitigate the top attack Javelins. Not sure why you feel the need to deny this….the Russians even stated that was the intent. The design evolved to defend against drones as the war progressed. Do you not feel like you can say “whoops, i was wrong”? |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 12:12:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: WildBoar]
[#17]
Russians are at least advancing with Tanks.
Ukraine has the world's most advanced tank and they are pulling them from the front. Fuckem both |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 12:16:15 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ServiceGun: They must be getting truly drone fucked if this is their solution. Good look at a turtle tank That visibility is awesome. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 12:37:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: The_Master_Shake]
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ServusVeritatis: You were talking about the big thread here. I’ve been in it since the start and they have always been called cope cages. They were developed before drones even started showing up in a big way and were a failed attempt to mitigate the top attack Javelins. Not sure why you feel the need to deny this….the Russians even stated that was the intent. The design evolved to defend against drones as the war progressed. Do you not feel like you can say “whoops, i was wrong”? Idk what to tell ya man. I don't get my Ukraine news from the 5 posters who monopolize GD but if you are insinuating I made up the name you're wrong. That was the original name on the Chans as well as on Reddit (heard it on GD too)  Attached File |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 1:13:29 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mal_means_bad: But the tool shed armor they've added makes it 80%+ less effective as a tank, so what's the point? It appears to be a bad trade off since the majority of tanks are still mobility killed by mines before drones set them on fire after they're disabled. The Ukrainians are likely to use thermite on the sheet metal covering the engine deck or bigger shaped charges to mitigate most of the value of the armor anyway. WWII British aircraft carriers are praised for having armored decks that made them more survivable, but the giant design tradeoff was much smaller hangars that cut their airwings in half and prevented them from upgrading to larger jets after the war - they could take a punch, but they couldn't do aircraft carrier things, so taking a punch or not was a moot point. In the open fields they're being used in, the Ukrainians can see the dust trail from armored columns going towards their positions from a long ways, so it's not like having this add-on makes a difference in keeping a low profile. The tank commander now has to communicate more with the driver in order to move the gun towards the desired firing position, but shouldn't be a big deal. Scanning is pretty much NA, but if you have drones up they can do the scanning for you. Even a mobility kill can still be recovered as shown on the video at 4:31. A destroyed tank via FPV is done. Thermite will go through the added on sheet panels, but if the tank doesn't catch fire via the reactive armor afterwards, it'll still be fine. The thermite will only create a small hole through the metal sheets. FPVs more than likely won't make it through to hit the tank directly (unless certain circumstances). FPVs are pretty much at their weight limit with the munitions they're using. So it's not like they can attached a "bigger" shaped charge. The sheet metal "armor" adds distance so the shaped charge on their RPG 7 grenades attached to FPVs doesn't succeed 100%. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 1:14:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 56xdx_Z]
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By The_Master_Shake: Idk what to tell ya man. I don't get my Ukraine news from the 5 posters who monopolize GD but if you are insinuating I made up the name you're wrong. That was the original name on the Chans as well as on Reddit (heard it on GD too) https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/132893/russias-least-credible-but-most-likely-c-3202891.JPG can confirm. IIRC the original "Cuck Cage" was a term for the chinese police interrogation chair, and they reused the term for slat armor that started appearing on tanks. NAFO was obsessed with spamming hundreds of putin/monkey photoshops with "Cope and seethe" type captions, so at some point the vatnik cuck cages changed into cope cages OG cuck cage:  Attached File |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 1:23:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4xGM300m]
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By juan223: Drones... Drones... The IDF isn't dealing with Javi's Top cover will provide some standoff for many Uke drone delivered packages, Javi's are another matter entirely. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By juan223: Originally Posted By fadedsun: It is accurate. https://i.postimg.cc/50jRMrpN/1647896027181-126-72-3-430-431-2021-1.webp They knew about loitering munitions but Ukraine had received Javelins under trump years earlier which was the entire reason they were developed. The above pic was at the end of 2021. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/51435/Screenshot_2024-05-01_020110_png-3202621.JPG How effective was this cope cage, again? Drones... Drones... The IDF isn't dealing with Javi's Top cover will provide some standoff for many Uke drone delivered packages, Javi's are another matter entirely. There are rumors that Russia sent captured Javelins to the Hamas and tried to blame Ukraine. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 1:23:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: The_Master_Shake]
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 56xdx_Z: can confirm. IIRC the original "Cuck Cage" was a term for the chinese police interrogation chair, and they reused the term for slat armor that started appearing on tanks. NAFO was obsessed with spamming hundreds of putin/monkey photoshops with "Cope and seethe" type captions, so at some point the vatnik cuck cages changed into cope cages OG cuck cage: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/586072/cuck_cage_jpeg-3202914.JPG Lol I remember that as well. Poor Chinese dude |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 1:30:21 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fadedsun: The Russians originally intended them to stop javelins. That didn't work. That's why we mock them. They still don't stop drones. This. And im sure they will figure out a way to defeat them (if they haven’t already) It’s also going to make the TC’s situational awareness even worse than it was with the typical Russian style “buttoned up” doctrine |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 1:37:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ArmyInfantryVet]
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mal_means_bad: Yes. The enormous silhouette and extremely limited firing arc is awful enough, but the commander is afflicted with probably the worst situational awareness of any armored vehicle in history. He's got a ~ 30 degree forward view and no clue what's happening anywhere else. Also I bet that scoop shape sucks up dirt like crazy, with nowhere for it to go. When it dries out it they'll probably disappear for five minutes in their own self generated dust cloud if they fire the gun, lol. Right. Situational awareness is hard for a tank without all that extra stuff bolted onto it. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 1:37:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: manowar669]
[#26]
Nothing new. Germans had standoff skirts on PzIIIs, PzIVs and StugIIIs for Bazooka defense (and HEAT ammo) in WWII. We attached sections of chain link fence and welded rebar grids to M113s in Vietnam as RPG defense. The Arab-Israeli wars taught us that the tank is on it's way out. Cheap drones that don't require LOS to the target directly from the operator might be the final nail in the coffin.
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Posted: 5/1/2024 1:39:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: lazyengineer]
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Curmudgeon762: This. And im sure they will figure out a way to defeat them (if they haven’t already) It’s also going to make the TC’s situational awareness even worse than it was with the typical Russian style “buttoned up” doctrine Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Curmudgeon762: Originally Posted By fadedsun: The Russians originally intended them to stop javelins. That didn't work. That's why we mock them. They still don't stop drones. This. And im sure they will figure out a way to defeat them (if they haven’t already) It’s also going to make the TC’s situational awareness even worse than it was with the typical Russian style “buttoned up” doctrine Yea wow. They are driving around in a 4? ton added cave, that they can only see and fire out the front of. Hope you don't need to look or fire behind or beside you. I guess it might help - it's defeatable, but is it defeatable by most field deployed weapons as-is? A separate step to burn a hole and then another shot independently fired through that hole is not the casual easy to do thing like people act. And if it forces that, that's a real advantage. But wow, I thought that's what reactive armor and additional bolt-on plates were for, while still allowing vision and maneuverability. I can't help but wonder if you really need that heavy gage steel for it to work. But then this looks like an expedient in-theater modification too. I suppose one appeal is if you went lighter gage, that would work, but the detonation would likley shred the whole thing, vs just make one in one spot. One thing I'd be doing if I were Ukraine is thinking up weapon systems that will turn that into a tomb. Napalm trapped inside that would be a very bad scene. A smoke grenade would blind that tank crew as well. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 1:41:36 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rock71: They should level up and use trampolines. I have to give you credit for style on this idea.... |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 1:58:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4xGM300m]
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fadedsun: It is accurate. https://i.postimg.cc/50jRMrpN/1647896027181-126-72-3-430-431-2021-1.webp They knew about loitering munitions but Ukraine had received Javelins under trump years earlier which was the entire reason they were developed. The above pic was at the end of 2021. Well, no, not accurate. The first cages appeared early 2021 after Azerbaijani Bayraktar drones destroyed hundreds of Armenian AVFs with the UMTAS top attack ammo in the 2020 war. This was the reason the cages were developed. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 3:09:09 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lazyengineer: Yea wow. They are driving around in a 4? ton added cave, that they can only see and fire out the front of. Hope you don't need to look or fire behind or beside you. I remember hearing long ago about how their vision blocks are limited anyway on most soviet tanks. Most focus forward. Question was asked of a soviet tanker "what if you need to look to your left or right?" Answer was "Why would I need to, there's just another tank there." While possibly apocryphal, it made the point that soviet armor was built for head on Kursk fights, so do they even lose that much visibility and does it matter? Or do their tactics just stay the same anyway? |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 3:51:14 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 4xGM300m: Well, no, not accurate. The first cages appeared early 2021 after Azerbaijani Bayraktar drones destroyed hundreds of Armenian AVFs with the UMTAS top attack ammo in the 2020 war. This was the reason the cages were developed. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 4xGM300m: Originally Posted By fadedsun: It is accurate. https://i.postimg.cc/50jRMrpN/1647896027181-126-72-3-430-431-2021-1.webp They knew about loitering munitions but Ukraine had received Javelins under trump years earlier which was the entire reason they were developed. The above pic was at the end of 2021. Well, no, not accurate. The first cages appeared early 2021 after Azerbaijani Bayraktar drones destroyed hundreds of Armenian AVFs with the UMTAS top attack ammo in the 2020 war. This was the reason the cages were developed. The Soviet RKG-3s were popular with the Iraqis (when they could get them) too so it's not like various top covers haven't been a thing even for the US. As someone else noted, improvised armor was used in previous conflicts including tanks in WWII where they strapped extra tracks, logs, etc to the outside in the hopes of helping defeat enemy shells. Logs of course also being used for self recovery in the mud. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 3:58:21 PM EDT
[#32]
Make Zimmerit paste great again.
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AK, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:17:05 PM EDT
[#33]
Not much different than the IED upgrades vehicles got in Iraq/Afghanistan.
It always starts with a couple guys and some welding. Eventually they figure out a more permanent solution. I see this though as supporting my idea of changing from heavier well armored tanks to faster moving more mobile weapons platforms. Using speed and electronic weaponry could allow for such to succeed where these tanks are struggling. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:21:58 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sandboxmedic: The Soviet RKG-3s were popular with the Iraqis (when they could get them) too so it's not like various top covers haven't been a thing even for the US. As someone else noted, improvised armor was used in previous conflicts including tanks in WWII where they strapped extra tracks, logs, etc to the outside in the hopes of helping defeat enemy shells. Logs of course also being used for self recovery in the mud. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sandboxmedic: Originally Posted By 4xGM300m: Originally Posted By fadedsun: It is accurate. https://i.postimg.cc/50jRMrpN/1647896027181-126-72-3-430-431-2021-1.webp They knew about loitering munitions but Ukraine had received Javelins under trump years earlier which was the entire reason they were developed. The above pic was at the end of 2021. Well, no, not accurate. The first cages appeared early 2021 after Azerbaijani Bayraktar drones destroyed hundreds of Armenian AVFs with the UMTAS top attack ammo in the 2020 war. This was the reason the cages were developed. The Soviet RKG-3s were popular with the Iraqis (when they could get them) too so it's not like various top covers haven't been a thing even for the US. As someone else noted, improvised armor was used in previous conflicts including tanks in WWII where they strapped extra tracks, logs, etc to the outside in the hopes of helping defeat enemy shells. Logs of course also being used for self recovery in the mud. Yeah, but until 2020 top attack ammo was never used in such a large scale with such devastating results. At least I'm not aware of. Armenia lost hundreds of AFVs in weeks. This was the triggering point for the cages, the first uparmored RU vehicles showed up in late 2020. They tried to keep the cages secret until Belarus made them public in early 2021. |
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MA, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:31:25 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sirveaux: I remember hearing long ago about how their vision blocks are limited anyway on most soviet tanks. Most focus forward. Question was asked of a soviet tanker "what if you need to look to your left or right?" Answer was "Why would I need to, there's just another tank there." While possibly apocryphal, it made the point that soviet armor was built for head on Kursk fights, so do they even lose that much visibility and does it matter? Or do their tactics just stay the same anyway? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sirveaux: Originally Posted By lazyengineer: Yea wow. They are driving around in a 4? ton added cave, that they can only see and fire out the front of. Hope you don't need to look or fire behind or beside you. I remember hearing long ago about how their vision blocks are limited anyway on most soviet tanks. Most focus forward. Question was asked of a soviet tanker "what if you need to look to your left or right?" Answer was "Why would I need to, there's just another tank there." While possibly apocryphal, it made the point that soviet armor was built for head on Kursk fights, so do they even lose that much visibility and does it matter? Or do their tactics just stay the same anyway? A toddler could outrun a T-72 in reverse, Russian tanks are made with some very significant compromises for relatively mystical reasons. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:39:05 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FunYun1983: A toddler could outrun a T-72 in reverse, Russian tanks are made with some very significant compromises for relatively mystical reasons. Not one gear backwards! |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:40:05 PM EDT
[#37]
Cope cage all the things!
Then nobody knows if there is a tank or Trabant underneath. Would work pretty good for hiding what you really have out there. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:46:36 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mal_means_bad: But the tool shed armor they've added makes it 80%+ less effective as a tank, so what's the point? It appears to be a bad trade off since the majority of tanks are still mobility killed by mines before drones set them on fire after they're disabled. The Ukrainians are likely to use thermite on the sheet metal covering the engine deck or bigger shaped charges to mitigate most of the value of the armor anyway. WWII British aircraft carriers are praised for having armored decks that made them more survivable, but the giant design tradeoff was much smaller hangars that cut their airwings in half and prevented them from upgrading to larger jets after the war - they could take a punch, but they couldn't do aircraft carrier things, so taking a punch or not was a moot point. I think it's just for those zerg-rush attacks across open steppes where everyone can see them coming and drones are swarming. The lead vehicle seems to be a tool-shed turtle-tank sometimes with mine rollers followed by whatever the Russians could cobble together, lately just Kamaz trucks with cope-cage armor. The shed is just to survive the trip to the point they can drop off the dismounts, blast a few rounds towards enemy trenches and GTFO. In most RU attacks, they all get eliminated (by drones mostly) enroute to the attack. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 5:06:49 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 4xGM300m: Yeah, but until 2020 top attack ammo was never used in such a large scale with such devastating results. At least I'm not aware of. Armenia lost hundreds of AFVs in weeks. This was the triggering point for the cages, the first uparmored RU vehicles showed up in late 2020. They tried to keep the cages secret until Belarus made them public in early 2021. Yeah. Add-on armor is old as tanks. Specific screens and fencing to defeat RPG's go back to Vietnam at least. What is new are the drone dropped bombs and kamikaze drones that come in horizontally. Dropping bombs from drone probably goes way back (Iraq or Syria?) but it was relatively rare. Now, in Ukraine over 50% of all vehicle kills are by drones. Thats fucking huge. It would be impractical to thicken tank top armor enough to defeat dropped RKG type bombs. It would have to be inches thick making a tank over 100 tons! The turtle shed makes sense in that it keeps the tank somewhat light, somewhat maneuverable, yet gives enough distance from the EFP from the shaped charges to negate them, although anyone riding on the top of the tank would be perforated. I dont know if tandem warheads would work either since they are intended to defeat ERA that is inches from the tank armor not feet away like the shed-armor. Incendiaries dropped on top would bounce or roll off. The only solution is the kamikaze drone that comes in from the front, where the tank has its best protection and can defeat RPG warheads. I also wonder if the giant shed would mess with a javelin's targeting, although a Jav or a TOW would not be stopped by the shed. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 5:13:15 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ServiceGun: They must be getting truly drone fucked if this is their solution. Good look at a turtle tank The shift in tactics from AT missiles and now rely so heavily on fpv drones is interesting. On the onset at missiles were all over the place. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 5:18:42 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bacon_Grease: Not much different than the IED upgrades vehicles got in Iraq/Afghanistan. It always starts with a couple guys and some welding. Eventually they figure out a more permanent solution. I see this though as supporting my idea of changing from heavier well armored tanks to faster moving more mobile weapons platforms. Using speed and electronic weaponry could allow for such to succeed where these tanks are struggling. What are those wheeled trucks the Marine Corps was testing that pulled up, dropped the outriggers, the computer was already programmed with the target solution so it fired a couple of rounds then raised the outriggers, stowed the gun and took off again all in something crazy quick like two to five minutes? The shoot and scoot idea definitely seems to have merit on today's battlefield. Development on those thermal blankets/camo that changes the heat signature so that even a full sized tank looks more like a regular truck seem to be progressing too. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 5:23:39 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By delemorte: The shift in tactics from AT missiles and now rely so heavily on fpv drones is interesting. On the onset at missiles were all over the place. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By delemorte: Originally Posted By ServiceGun: They must be getting truly drone fucked if this is their solution. Good look at a turtle tank The shift in tactics from AT missiles and now rely so heavily on fpv drones is interesting. On the onset at missiles were all over the place. You'd think an A frame would work better to direct the dropped device off to the side.  It'd be taller, but at this point all sides seem to be scrambling to find anything that helps.
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Posted: 5/1/2024 5:26:57 PM EDT
[#43]
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WA, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 5:30:17 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 11boomboom: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/523928/Caiman_mine-resistant__ambush-protected_-3203075.JPG Thanks. Now my spine hurts and 3 fillings just fell out of my mouth. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 10:49:37 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fadedsun: The Russians originally intended them to stop javelins. That didn't work. That's why we mock them. They still don't stop drones. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 10:57:39 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PoppinFresh: Thanks. Now my spine hurts and 3 fillings just fell out of my mouth. I can still hear and smell that image.
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NC, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 11:12:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: LS1Auto]
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By delemorte: The shift in tactics from AT missiles and now rely so heavily on fpv drones is interesting. On the onset at missiles were all over the place. https://www.defensenews.com/smr/reagan-defense-forum/2022/12/04/russia-burning-through-ammunition-in-ukraine-at-extraordinary-rate/ |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 11:36:43 PM EDT
[#48]
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KY, USA
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Posted: 5/2/2024 2:05:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: kychas]
[#49]
I bet a fishing net on the front would keep the drones out of the shed and a number of small CCD cameras all around the outside would give good visibility for situational awareness for the commander
A microwave dish with a camera for aiming on a remote control x y gimbal could fry a drone electronics at a fair distance so a operator would scan the sky and fry drones like shooting skeet |
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Posted: 5/2/2024 2:41:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Jkees]
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LS1Auto: Our production capabilities suck. Got what we deserved. https://www.defensenews.com/smr/reagan-defense-forum/2022/12/04/russia-burning-through-ammunition-in-ukraine-at-extraordinary-rate/ We definitely have room for improvement, but I dont think by that much. It is just a simple reality that there is WAAAYYYY more work that goes into making 1 single missile as compared to a rocket, or a conventional shell. Missiles worked great when we could control the pace of the conflict in the middle east and be careful about collateral damage, but in a full scale near peer conflict hopefully the boys in charge are realizing that the cost of production per kill is just too damn high on missiles when there are so many other options to get the job done. War is a game of economy with human life. Whoever can find the cheapest and easiest way to kill a man wins. |
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