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Posted: 3/28/2024 12:52:33 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By The_Reaper: I'm not a bridge engineer. Is it normal to build a bridge in such a way that knocking out one support dominoes the entire thing? Just like bar stools, ladders, cranes and soda cans, they are very strong as a whole but damage to one key part can bring the whole thing down. |
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AL, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2024 12:58:23 PM EDT
[#2]
As an engineer too I'm curious as well.
Seems like backup generators can't be used to steer ship. I thought these ships were like locomotives where it was diesel electric. In that case you could resort to backup gen power. I bet they have some electrical gremlin they haven't tracked down, but I bet they find it now. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 12:59:26 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By arowneragain: It’s the maritime equivalent of a ‘79 Peterbilt breaking a neglected tie rod and slamming into an overpass. An old boat did an old boat thing. The resultant allision exceeded the bridge’s design parameters. From an engineering or failure analysis perspective this is fascinating stuff. For the rest of us, ehhh, it’s another Tuesday on the high seas. The ship isn’t even 10 years old. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 1:00:30 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 7empest: The 5G nanobots in the harbor pilots clot shot were hacked taking over his nervous system forcing him to ram into the bridge. Yep. The Chinese also triggered the nanobots, all part of their plan! Also, we need a MV Dali vs FSK Bridge forum. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 1:01:20 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mortgage_Payer: Next, explain why the USN has had so many collision failures as of late. Competency crisis? I can say that while I wore Navy Master Chief boots I kicked a great deal of ass and motivated those around me to become better warriors. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 1:03:23 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Paul: Competency crisis? I can say that while I wore Navy Master Chief boots I kicked a great deal of ass and motivated those around me to become better warriors. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Paul: Originally Posted By Mortgage_Payer: Next, explain why the USN has had so many collision failures as of late. Competency crisis? I can say that while I wore Navy Master Chief boots I kicked a great deal of ass and motivated those around me to become better warriors. I went to college with a master chief...they were a beast and got shit done! |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 1:04:04 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mancat: All of those things could have been done easily under normal circumstances... Definitely not when the ship has minutes to avoid a collision. You can have all the backup and manual systems in the world, the crew cannot create time. Like I said in the other thread.. I wouldn't be surprised to see new regulations dictating that there will be a tug alongside every ship arriving/departing major ports until they have cleared potential obstructions like major bridges. Yup. Time and Newton's Laws are pretty mean. |
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USA
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Posted: 3/28/2024 1:05:49 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dolomite: LEAN operating budget. ETA - the netflix fiction series Zero Zero Zero has an awesome segment that deals with operations on a heavily automated foreign crewed shipping vessel - episodes 2 - 3 iirc. It is worth rewatching. I thought the 'kid' in that movie was a lamer, til he was johnny on the spot. I thought the final scene with the girl and the jefe was the most perfect ending I've ever seen. Too bad there aint a next one coming out. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 1:08:39 PM EDT
[#9]
Transmission failure?
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Posted: 3/28/2024 1:10:56 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Paul: Competency crisis? I can say that while I wore Navy Master Chief boots I kicked a great deal of ass and motivated those around me to become better warriors.  Ramming Speed! |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 1:16:07 PM EDT
[#11]
Probably lack of maintenance. Cheap management.
Not enough crew. Tug boats released before clearing passing the bridge. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 1:19:32 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EDDIECRUM: I'm surprised they did not have tugs guiding through the channel to get passed the bridge. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 1:20:38 PM EDT
[#13]
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Posted: 3/28/2024 1:21:15 PM EDT
[#14]
 MV Dali Hitting Key Bridge in Baltimore - Track and Video Analysis |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 1:22:34 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Richard-ar15: Is everything run off the ship's main engines? Propulsion, lighting, refrigeration of the containers, etc.? You forgot toilets . If the toilets don’t work the rest of the ship goes down . |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 1:25:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AgeOne]
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mojo_Jojo: Imagine if the root cause is found to be bad fuel, and the ship took on fuel while in port. If the tank had a bunch of crap settled at the bottom over years and they filled up in the port it could have disturbed the debris allowing it to get sucked up easier. that would make sense to me. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 1:25:41 PM EDT
[#17]
I have no idea, but we watch all those "Engineering Disasters"-type shows on TV. It's not a bunch of third-world Rube Goldberg stuff either. I'm sure the Baltimore event will end up on TV too.
A few years ago we were packing for our Viking Scandinavian cruise when we found that passengers on the ship we were to board in two days had to be rescued by helicopter. The ship lost power in rough seas.  Hundreds of Passengers Rescued From Stranded Cruise Ship off Norway | Sunday TODAY |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 1:26:13 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GiveMeBackMyBullets: In the video you can see all the lights on the vessel go off, come back on, and then go off again just a few seconds before the bridge strike. Going to guess it ends up being some type of electrical system failure that inhibited the pilot’s ability to control the ship.  |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 1:30:07 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By midcap: I went to college with a master chief...they were a beast and got shit done! Really.... I picture a "They" as a purple hair 20 something woke democrat voting trannie. Roy |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 1:35:32 PM EDT
[#20]
The ship had insurance , right ?
The insurance will pay to rebuild the bridge , right ? The insurance will compensate the families of the six victims for the loss of life , right ? |
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USA
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Posted: 3/28/2024 1:37:17 PM EDT
[#21]
I'm going to go out on a limb and say someone fucked up huge.
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Posted: 3/28/2024 1:40:05 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By hugh1: Why would one expect people to build a bridge differently than their home? We don't hurricane proof, tornado proof or fire proof our homes yet these natural disasters are far more likely. |
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AK, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2024 1:41:31 PM EDT
[#23]
Preventive maintenance failure.
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USA
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Posted: 3/28/2024 1:42:27 PM EDT
[#24]
My thinking has been an electrical bus or power distribution issue.
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Posted: 3/28/2024 1:44:37 PM EDT
[#25]
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Posted: 3/28/2024 1:47:32 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Paul: ETA: When the Navy is coming into or out of ports, or transiting "tight" areas, they'll go to the "sea and anchor detail" and man up Aux Con, Aft Steering, the Focsile (the anchor room), add look outs, additional watch standers in combat and restrictions against taking down navigational systems. There's a ton of stuff that goes on just "in case". You wouldn't have to find the team to man Aux Con, they'd be standing there communicating with the Bridge. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 1:52:09 PM EDT
[#27]
The bridge did what it was designed to do. It did it well. What it was not designed to do was take the broadside it did. The ship was almost as big as the USS Enterprise and gaining speed when it lost power. They don't stop on a dime either.
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Posted: 3/28/2024 1:57:36 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Morlawn66: Not to shift this thread but the design of the Bridge Piers is total shit . The ship's bow impacted the Truss portion above water and took it out, it had NO mass to resist impact and had no protection supplied by Dolphins . Probably posted this in the wrong thread . Not for when it was built in 1977. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2024 1:59:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: MARLIN670]
[#29]
Shipping industry budget cuts eliminated tug escorts. Tugs used to help ships navigate in ports/channels where valuable infrastructure may be.
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Posted: 3/28/2024 2:00:08 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Paul: Competency crisis? I can say that while I wore Navy Master Chief boots I kicked a great deal of ass and motivated those around me to become better warriors. I remember Master Chiefs... 
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Posted: 3/28/2024 2:01:09 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AgeOne: If the tank had a bunch of crap settled at the bottom over years and they filled up in the port it could have disturbed the debris allowing it to get sucked up easier. that would make sense to me. This is the purpose of an HFO settling tank |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 2:02:40 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By webtaz99: Lack of proper maintenance. The last CG inspection found no discrepancies. For a huge ship, I'd think that is a well-run ship. The US Navy doesn't do that well. |
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USA
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Posted: 3/28/2024 2:04:47 PM EDT
[#33]
So funny how so many want to see a conspiracy. One of the ignorant media talking heads was spewing with his thoughts just before he started interviewing a retired Captain who had an extensive resume. The man quickly set the record straight by saying engines fail and systems fail all of the time but the public does not know about them because they do not result in a catastrophic event, but this failure unfortunately did.
Everyday cars that are well maintained fail, race cars that have every part of an engine etc checked and rechecked fail. Crap happens and no doubt the NTSB will get to the bottom of it and tell us. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 2:07:31 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By arowneragain: It’s the maritime equivalent of a ‘79 Peterbilt breaking a neglected tie rod and slamming into an overpass. An old boat did an old boat thing. The resultant allision exceeded the bridge’s design parameters. From an engineering or failure analysis perspective this is fascinating stuff. For the rest of us, ehhh, it’s another Tuesday on the high seas. Is 9 years considered old for a bull freighter? MV Dali is a Singapore-registered container ship completed in 2015 and owned by Grace Ocean Pte Ltd. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 2:09:43 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By arowneragain: If it has a propeller and a rudder, the rudder works, for better or worse, regardless of whether the propeller is turning. Contrast that with something like a JetSki where the impeller assembly essentially vectors the thrust to turn. Lose power and it will always go in a straight line, whether you want it to or not. I almost killed someone 20 years ago while learning that fact the hard way. According to a retired Captain interviewed, the more speed the ship has, the more steering control you have. Ships don't come equipped with brakes and air bags. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 2:16:54 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CTM1: So funny how so many want to see a conspiracy. One of the ignorant media talking heads was spewing with his thoughts just before he started interviewing a retired Captain who had an extensive resume. The man quickly set the record straight by saying engines fail and systems fail all of the time but the public does not know about them because they do not result in a catastrophic event, but this failure unfortunately did. Everyday cars that are well maintained fail, race cars that have every part of an engine etc checked and rechecked fail. Crap happens and no doubt the NTSB will get to the bottom of it and tell us. Like you said ships go "dead in the water" fairly often but at sea it usually is a non issue and you never hear about it. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 2:17:09 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By highstepper: Prolly bad fuel or poor maintenance… However… Could it have been a hack? A hostile state actor couldn’t plan a more convenient way to cripple one of our busiest ports IF, it indeed was a hack. Just a thought… With hind sight it is a fair point. However, How many terrorists would have the slightest idea how the 20th busiest port in the USA could be so crippled to affect global commerce? A major national intel agency would be lucky to have such a thought. They would aim for a much bigger target, like NYS, LA, Seattle, or San Diego. |
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USA
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Posted: 3/28/2024 2:17:39 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CTM1: So funny how so many want to see a conspiracy. One of the ignorant media talking heads was spewing with his thoughts just before he started interviewing a retired Captain who had an extensive resume. The man quickly set the record straight by saying engines fail and systems fail all of the time but the public does not know about them because they do not result in a catastrophic event, but this failure unfortunately did. Everyday cars that are well maintained fail, race cars that have every part of an engine etc checked and rechecked fail. Crap happens and no doubt the NTSB will get to the bottom of it and tell us. This being said, there are simple to use for the laymen, and I assume much more complex and powerful programs for the competent hacker that allow you to search for open systems, and allow you to take control. Baby monitors, home HVAC controls, Building electrical systems, Power Plants, factories. Is that what happened here? I have *no* clue, I do know that we are in a cold war with at least a dozen, highly competent nation states, who all have the ability and motive to do this. Teams of people just probing all day and making lists of easily penetrated targets. What does occams razor say to you? Me, I am going to keep an open mind and see what the future patterns look like. |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2024 2:20:36 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Morlawn66: Not to shift this thread but the design of the Bridge Piers is total shit . The ship's bow impacted the Truss portion above water and took it out, it had NO mass to resist impact and had no protection supplied by Dolphins . Probably posted this in the wrong thread . That's great if true. The replacement work will go much faster if the piers were not impacted by the wreck. I'm thinking about 4 years before a vehicle crosses that bridge. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 2:22:33 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ZuoZongtang: One abject failure was protocol. Should have dropped anchor the second power went out. How come the captain’s name hasn’t been released? Why isn’t he up in front of congress? Was any of the crew detained or arrested? How about maintenance records? Too many unanswered questions. I find it striking that from the first second this happened. It was called by all news Media outlets a Bridge collapse. Not a ship hitting a bridge. Jesus Christ....while this whole post is pretty tarded, the bold part set a new high score. If you honestly believe that congress will help get to the bottom of this....I've got a bridge to sell you in Baltimore. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 2:25:06 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mancat: This is the purpose of an HFO settling tank interesting. so fuel contamination is accounted for. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 2:42:37 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ZuoZongtang: One abject failure was protocol. Should have dropped anchor the second power went out. How come the captain’s name hasn’t been released? Why isn’t he up in front of congress? Was any of the crew detained or arrested? How about maintenance records? Too many unanswered questions. I find it striking that from the first second this happened. It was called by all news Media outlets a Bridge collapse. Not a ship hitting a bridge. A local Harbor pilot was in control of the ship. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 2:44:00 PM EDT
[#43]
When things started to break, they couldn't get through to the Indian call center for IT support
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Posted: 3/28/2024 2:53:52 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Morlawn66: Not to shift this thread but the design of the Bridge Piers is total shit . The ship's bow impacted the Truss portion above water and took it out, it had NO mass to resist impact and had no protection supplied by Dolphins . Probably posted this in the wrong thread . The Francis Key Bridge was completed 2 years before the Sunshine Skyway bridge disaster. Obviously they didn't reinforce the bridge or add in protective barriers like the new Florida bridge has. |
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WI, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2024 2:54:33 PM EDT
[#45]
Originally Posted By aa777888-2: the root cause. Dinky bridge supports with no bumpers to protect them. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2024 3:06:45 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GiveMeBackMyBullets: In the video you can see all the lights on the vessel go off, come back on, and then go off again just a few seconds before the bridge strike. Going to guess it ends up being some type of electrical system failure that inhibited the pilot’s ability to control the ship. Several articles have already mentioned the ship losing all power while docked. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13246079/amp/Dali-cargo-ship-suffered-severe-electrical-problem-docked-Baltimore-days-prior-bridge-collapse-crash-saw-suffer-total-power-failure-loss-engine-failure-port-worker-says.html Article says, that they had repeated total power failure while docked, related to refrigerated containers. “Mitchell explained that refrigerated boxes tripped breakers on board the ship on several occasions, and mechanics had been trying to fix the issue. “ My postulation in the Main thread based on this info, was that the draw was overloading the capacity of the ship’s systems, and instead of rectifying the issue, in order to pass inspections and be underway, the crew simply resorted to the slipshod/half-assed option of disconnecting some of those refrigerated containers to reduce the electrical load enough to stop tripping the breakers, then reconnected them once underway, with the intention of trying to see if they could “rectify it en route”, rather than be delayed even longer at dock. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 3:07:35 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 7empest: The 5G nanobots in the harbor pilots clot shot were hacked taking over his nervous system forcing him to ram into the bridge. I'm going with this one. |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2024 3:09:27 PM EDT
[#48]
From a 40+ year refinery guy, who supplied fuel to all the big boats on the Great Lakes, fuel was fine when initially refined. Hard to screw up after that, but possible.
Even so, a vessel like that would have been burning diesel (not #6 FO) until 200 miles offshore (EPA Rules), so crappy bunker fuel unlikely. Even then, most vessels I know have diesel powered generators for the electrical systems. I suspect electrical issues, rather than fuel. My $0.02 worth. |
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USA
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Posted: 3/28/2024 3:14:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: GilTPayne]
[#49]
For a rather basic idea of exactly how easy it is to hack these systems, and to actually see that there is everything form baby monitors to factories/power systems open, check out:
Shodan And poke around. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 3:16:52 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mojo_Jojo: Imagine if the root cause is found to be bad fuel, and the ship took on fuel while in port. Interesting. |
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