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Posted: 5/18/2024 9:41:56 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lou_Daks: This is incorrect. Example: If you were a country in an existential war, and both sides had nukes, and you were about to be completely overrun, would you nuke your enemy? Of course you would. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lou_Daks: Originally Posted By c7aea15: Nukes don't even seem like a viable deterrent. A deterrent only works if you're actually going to use them. The minute the Ukraine actually launched some Russia would likely retaliate. Then the world gets fucked even more. I don't think anyone wants to use nuclear weapons when using them means your own destruction as well. This is incorrect. Example: If you were a country in an existential war, and both sides had nukes, and you were about to be completely overrun, would you nuke your enemy? Of course you would. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 9:44:09 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Aspida1776: We may need to go over and help them! https://bnn-news.com/study-latvian-women-world-s-tallest-148065 I work with a beautiful Latvian chick. Blonde. About 6'1" https://bnn-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/afofofo.jpg Latvian blonds participate in a parade along the river Daugava in Riga in 2011 Latvian women are on average the tallest in the world, while Dutch men are taller than men in any other country, scientists have found in a study published this week. In the research paper carried out by 793 researchers from many countries featured in the biomedicine portal eLife on July 26, it was also found that Europeans are on average taller that people in other parts of the world. BBC reports that the average Dutchman is now 183cm tall, while the average Latvian woman reaches 170cm, but Estonian men and women are also in the top 3. 170 cm is 5 feet 6 inches. That is not remarkable. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 9:44:22 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: We now have NATO repeatedly discussing Ukrainian entrance into NATO after the war. Is this an effort to get Russia to quit? Or an effort to get Russia locked into a conflict we won't let them win? It clearly indicates that unless Russia takes all of Ukraine, whatever is left will be expedited into NATO. Russia can't take all of Ukraine. What purpose do those press releases serve? You've taken a potential point of negotiation off the table. IMO the threat to allow Ukr into NATO is a negotiating point to get the soviets out of Ukr. The World: "If you GTFO, and stay TFO, we won't allow Ukr to join NATO." Pooty: "Ummmm..." |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 9:45:30 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By c7aea15: It's certainly not that simple. And good thing they don't have them then. So, nukes aren't a deterrent? You're gonna hafta do better than that. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 9:47:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: xd341]
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lou_Daks: IMO the threat to allow Ukr into NATO is a negotiating point to get the soviets out of Ukr. The World: "If you GTFO, and stay TFO, we won't allow Ukr to join NATO." Pooty: "Ummmm..." Now that we've said the opposite we will look like assholes if we make that deal. Assholes that can't be trusted as allies. That hurts us globally |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 9:48:42 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: We now have NATO repeatedly discussing Ukrainian entrance into NATO after the war. Is this an effort to get Russia to quit? Or an effort to get Russia locked into a conflict we won't let them win? It clearly indicates that unless Russia takes all of Ukraine, whatever is left will be expedited into NATO. Russia can't take all of Ukraine. What purpose do those press releases serve? You've taken a potential point of negotiation off the table. It's not really a point of negotiation. Russia moved into Irpin, Bucha and other places and massacred the population. Anything Russia can't take easily they shell into oblivion. When your options are a mass grave or ruins there's not a lot of wiggle room |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 9:51:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: xd341]
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Star_Scream: It's not really a point of negotiation. Russia moved into Irpin, Bucha and other places and massacred the population. Anything Russia can't take easily they shell into oblivion. When your options are a mass grave or ruins there's not a lot of wiggle room Jens doesn't create policy, that wasn't an off the cuff remark that got walked back. It's very consistent with US policy going back at least a decade. Its what dipshit Harris said before the war, she can't spell policy let alone create it. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 9:52:27 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: So make that deal out loud and call his bluff. Now that we've said the opposite we will look like assholes if we make that deal. Assholes that can't be trusted as allies. That hurts us globally You seem to have no grasp on the basics of negotiating. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 9:54:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: xd341]
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lou_Daks: You seem to have no grasp on the basics of negotiating. Would negotiating a peace deal where putin keeps chunks of Ukraine and doesn't get to join nato not make us look like untrustworthy allies? I think it would. I think it would greatly degrade our ability to form alliances in the future. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 9:56:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: ServusVeritatis]
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: We now have NATO repeatedly discussing Ukrainian entrance into NATO after the war. Is this an effort to get Russia to quit? Or an effort to get Russia locked into a conflict we won't let them win? It clearly indicates that unless Russia takes all of Ukraine, whatever is left will be expedited into NATO. Russia can't take all of Ukraine. What purpose do those press releases serve? You've taken a potential point of negotiation off the table. Would you trust any “negotiations” with Russia without excessive leverage against them? Yes, the point IS to make Russia HURT for their decision (gasp! how dare we). Negotiating away strips of land each time Russia pushes into another country every 2-3 years is what you propose? Just to “stop the proxy war” huh? “Just stop the killing” has been getting pushed by those with similar views as you for around 2 years now. “NATO will fight to the last Ukrainian” is a chant that’s come out of Russia and similar posters here. It’s apparent you’re placing them on equal moral footing like they have valid arguments to a lot of the BS they put out. Those arguments are excuses. If you are trying to say “Russia and the West are equals in their actions” then we aren’t going to just disagree based on the foundations of our arguments. You act as if the west (or Ukraine) can make the sole decision of ending this war or stopping it before it started discounting the historic Russian mindset/actions that you’ve just went over. I hope to God you don’t have a kid that’s starts getting bullied. He better learn to take a punch and run if he listens to your advice on conflict. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 9:58:01 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lou_Daks: So, nukes aren't a deterrent? You're gonna hafta do better than that. Once the nukes start flying we're all fucked. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 9:58:10 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: Enlighten me. Would negotiating a peace deal where putin keeps chunks of Ukraine and doesn't get to join nato not make us look like untrustworthy allies? I think it would. I think it would greatly degrade our ability to form alliances in the future. Reality will enlighten you, some day, hopefully. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 9:59:40 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ServusVeritatis: Would you trust any “negotiations” with Russia without excessive leverage against them? Yes, the point IS to make Russia HURT for their decision (gasp! how dare we). Negotiating away strips of land each time Russia pushes into another country every 2-3 years is what you propose? Just to “stop the proxy war” huh? “Just stop the killing” has been getting pushed by those with similar views as you for around 2 years now. “NATO will fight to the last Ukrainian” is a chant that’s come out of Russia and similar posters here. It’s apparent you’re placing them on equal moral footing like they have valid arguments to a lot of the BS they put out. Those arguments are excuses. If you are trying to say “Russia and the West are equals in their actions” then we aren’t going to just disagree based on the foundations of our arguments. You act as if the west (or Ukraine) can make the sole decision of ending this war or stopping it before it started discounting the historic Russian mindset/actions that you’ve just went over. I hope to God you don’t have a kid that’s starts getting bullied. He better learn to take a punch and run if he listens to your advice on conflict. Agreed. One country invaded another country, unprovoked. There are no moral equivalents between those two countries. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 10:01:35 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By c7aea15: Were they during the Cold War? We had enough nukes to destroy the world several times over. We just fought proxy wars elsewhere. Essentially what's happening now, it's just a continuation of all that. This shit has been going on for decades and decades. Where's the deterrent? Once the nukes start flying we're all fucked. I'll worry about that when it happens. The deterrent is self-evident. There have been no nukes used since WWII. That was 1945. That was almost 80 years ago. Crack open a history book. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 10:01:57 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Star_Scream: That's pretty common in the Baltics, however when asked literally none of them would return to Russia, even less would send their kids to Russian schools or encourage their kids to return "home". In many former Soviet states Russians are the welfare queens of that country. They bitch about how great things were, refuse to change but love to take advantage of the freedoms provided by not living in Russia. They seem like a potential dangerous fifth column to me and I'd lock 'em all up in work camps just like we did with the Nisei in WW2. But, what do I know? Ukraine recently appointed someone born in Russia, and who still has family there, as the top general of their armed forces. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 10:05:34 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sjm1582002: They seem like a potential dangerous fifth column to me and I'd lock 'em all up in work camps just like we did with the Nisei in WW2. But, what do I know? Ukraine recently appointed someone born in Russia, and who still has family there, as the top general of their armed forces. So Russia is now trying to kill Russian speakers. I thought that’s why they invaded Ukraine? |
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LVA
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Posted: 5/18/2024 10:07:56 AM EDT
[#17]
Fun times ahead frens
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Posted: 5/18/2024 10:09:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: xd341]
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ServusVeritatis: Would you trust any "negotiations" with Russia without excessive leverage against them? Yes, the point IS to make Russia HURT for their decision (gasp! how dare we). Negotiating away strips of land each time Russia pushes into another country every 2-3 years is what you propose? Just to "stop the proxy war" huh? "Just stop the killing" has been getting pushed by those with similar views as you for around 2 years now. "NTO will fight to the last Ukrainian" is a chant that's come out of Russia and similar posters here. It's apparent you're placing them on equal moral footing like they have valid arguments to a lot of the BS they put out. Those arguments are excuses. If you are trying to say "Russia and the West are equals in their actions" then we aren't going to just disagree based on the foundations of our arguments. You act as if the west (or Ukraine) can make the sole decision of ending this war or stopping it before it started discounting the historic Russian mindset/actions that you've just went over. I hope to God you don't have a kid that's starts getting bullied. He better learn to take a punch and run if he listens to your advice on conflict. You think we are fighting the good fight. For freedom and justice, international order, rule of law etc...ok. I think that's naive. I think we are doing what both sides have done since WW2 or before. I don't think we give a flying fuck about Ukrainians. We should, but we don't. I think we should be far more aggressive than we have been. I think this half assed war is immoral. If it's worth fighting, fight it. Get it over with as quickly as possible. There is no solution here that doesn't risk nuclear exchange. So be it. If it's important enough to fight, then fight. If not then don't. Make the call. This hurts our standing in the world. Afghanistan hurt our standing. The more we reduce our credibility on the world stage the more likely wars become. Wars are bad. Long wars are worse, long wars you lose are the worst. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 10:11:07 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lou_Daks: Reality will enlighten you, some day, hopefully. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 10:16:18 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: Pithy. But a cop out. Either you have cogent original ideas or you don't. One country invaded another, unprovoked. There is no moral equivalence between them. How much more cogent do I have to be? 
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Posted: 5/18/2024 10:20:13 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lou_Daks: I'll worry about that when it happens. The deterrent is self-evident. There have been no nukes used since WWII. That was 1945. That was almost 80 years ago. Crack open a history book. What deterrent are you referring to? Again there's been no nukes used because no one wants to use them. And yet the wars continue on. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 10:22:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: sjm1582002]
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fadedsun: So Russia is now trying to kill Russian speakers. I thought that’s why they invaded Ukraine? I was dumbfounded when I learned that Zelensky selected someone from Russia to lead the Ukrainian armed forces. I guess there aren't any native Ukrainian general officers that measure up to that guy |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 5/18/2024 10:23:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: ArmyInfantryVet]
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: Enlighten me. Would negotiating a peace deal where putin keeps chunks of Ukraine and doesn't get to join nato not make us look like untrustworthy allies? I think it would. I think it would greatly degrade our ability to form alliances in the future. Like fighting over critical aid to an ally in desperate need like its bar room brawl. Where we're not even putting our own people at risk. Floating out retarded fantasies to large political rallies about letting Russia take NATO countries. Yeah, I agree. Who should ever want to be an ally with us under those conditions? Better for them to just cut deals with Russia and China, who won't be having any Congressional mash pit, death fights over getting men and gear to parts of whatever Democracy they're invading. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 10:30:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TxRabbitBane]
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: Your going to have to accept that we played a part. That's the reality. You can argue that we should expand NATO, that Ukraine should be a member, and you'd probably be surprised by my opinion on that. But what you can't do is stick your fingers in your ears and yell "I can't hear you" everytime someone points out the timeline. We fucked around in Ukranian internal politics, something that was the domain of Russia, then putin invaded Crimea. Then we sent the VP out to publically invite Ukraine into NATO and putin invaded the rest of Ukraine. We were obviously peeling Ukraine out of the Russian sphere of influence. We knew it, NATO and the EU knew it, and Putin knew it. You have two choices here, either the US foreign policy establishment is incompetent beyond description, or they knew exactly what they were doing, and this whole thing is roughly on track. It's no small irony to me that many of the people here that can't see the reality of the Ukraine war also have acute TDS. You guys aren't skeptical enough of government. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: People here will totally buy the narrative that it's Latvia's fault for joining the NATO and the US is at fault for expanding NATO. "So F 'em" You can argue that we should expand NATO, that Ukraine should be a member, and you'd probably be surprised by my opinion on that. But what you can't do is stick your fingers in your ears and yell "I can't hear you" everytime someone points out the timeline. We fucked around in Ukranian internal politics, something that was the domain of Russia, then putin invaded Crimea. Then we sent the VP out to publically invite Ukraine into NATO and putin invaded the rest of Ukraine. We were obviously peeling Ukraine out of the Russian sphere of influence. We knew it, NATO and the EU knew it, and Putin knew it. You have two choices here, either the US foreign policy establishment is incompetent beyond description, or they knew exactly what they were doing, and this whole thing is roughly on track. It's no small irony to me that many of the people here that can't see the reality of the Ukraine war also have acute TDS. You guys aren't skeptical enough of government. I love how folks like you totally ignore that Putin has been trying to put together Soviet Union v2.0 since before your timeline, this is intentional to justify saying the US is responsible and poor Russia was forced into declaring war, which is total nonsense. This PoV is the product of “alternative news” sites, often with funding coming out of Russia. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 10:34:42 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Star_Scream: Wouldn't be necessary if someone wasn't threatening the Baltics The only entity threatening the Baltics is the Military Industrial Complex in the United States, whose thirst for money is insatiable. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 10:35:36 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Arty8: The only entity threatening the Baltics is the Military Industrial Complex in the United States, whose thirst for money is insatiable. Yeah that's it. Not Russian leadership. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 10:44:47 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MikeJGA: Correct on all points, except there is no communist Soviet Union. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MikeJGA: Originally Posted By Lou_Daks: I don't believe for a second that the Soviet commies will start a wider war. They are getting their asses kicked by the Ukes. Imagine a two-front war like what they currently have with Ukr, and the "allies" being allowed to strike targets within the communist Soviet Union. Aye caramba. Pooty would wake up dead one morning and nobody saw nuthin'. Should NATO be peppered? Yes. It's always good to be peppered. But it's not happening. Our one real enemy is chy nah, and Taiwan is the most likely flash point. Correct on all points, except there is no communist Soviet Union. Although, one could argue that since Pooty is Soviet communist KGB thru and thru, Russia is a smaller equivalent. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 10:46:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: ServusVeritatis]
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: You mis-understand my position, I can't tell if it's intentional but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. You think we are fighting the good fight. For freedom and justice, international order, rule of law etc...ok. I think that's naive. I think we are doing what both sides have done since WW2 or before. I don't think we give a flying fuck about Ukrainians. We should, but we don't. I think we should be far more aggressive than we have been. I think this half assed war is immoral. If it's worth fighting, fight it. Get it over with as quickly as possible. There is no solution here that doesn't risk nuclear exchange. So be it. If it's important enough to fight, then fight. If not then don't. Make the call. This hurts our standing in the world. Afghanistan hurt our standing. The more we reduce our credibility on the world stage the more likely wars become. Wars are bad. Long wars are worse, long wars you lose are the worst. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: Originally Posted By ServusVeritatis: Would you trust any "negotiations" with Russia without excessive leverage against them? Yes, the point IS to make Russia HURT for their decision (gasp! how dare we). Negotiating away strips of land each time Russia pushes into another country every 2-3 years is what you propose? Just to "stop the proxy war" huh? "Just stop the killing" has been getting pushed by those with similar views as you for around 2 years now. "NTO will fight to the last Ukrainian" is a chant that's come out of Russia and similar posters here. It's apparent you're placing them on equal moral footing like they have valid arguments to a lot of the BS they put out. Those arguments are excuses. If you are trying to say "Russia and the West are equals in their actions" then we aren't going to just disagree based on the foundations of our arguments. You act as if the west (or Ukraine) can make the sole decision of ending this war or stopping it before it started discounting the historic Russian mindset/actions that you've just went over. I hope to God you don't have a kid that's starts getting bullied. He better learn to take a punch and run if he listens to your advice on conflict. You think we are fighting the good fight. For freedom and justice, international order, rule of law etc...ok. I think that's naive. I think we are doing what both sides have done since WW2 or before. I don't think we give a flying fuck about Ukrainians. We should, but we don't. I think we should be far more aggressive than we have been. I think this half assed war is immoral. If it's worth fighting, fight it. Get it over with as quickly as possible. There is no solution here that doesn't risk nuclear exchange. So be it. If it's important enough to fight, then fight. If not then don't. Make the call. This hurts our standing in the world. Afghanistan hurt our standing. The more we reduce our credibility on the world stage the more likely wars become. Wars are bad. Long wars are worse, long wars you lose are the worst. Of all the wars we have fought AFG was the most acceptable. The WAY it was fought? Maybe not. You can use Vietnam and Iraq all day and I’d agree and even the perception of those were by the WAY they were fought. I also noticed no mention of South Korea in the conflicts you spoke about….i think that was worth it. Plenty of people care about innocent people getting attacked. I agree with you about giving Ukrai e what they need to win. That’s why Biden sucks in handling this. I disagree about the nuke point. For as many people are dying in this dragged out war (and we should be helping them more to break Russia) giving Russia an excuse to “get to the point” and use a nuke would be worse. I do believe there is a valid strategy to deter Russia by destroying their economy i. the long, drawn out war they started, making their dictators crack down harder on their people, and chewing up their armed forces and young men. Heck….you said they did it to us in Vietnam (with this already being worse for them) it works both ways. Keep in mind Ukraine and the west didn’t start the killing and to say they don’t care if Ukrainians die is BS. To say “let’s just get to nukes” isn’t real it discounts the fact that it will kill more people. To say the west doesn’t care about “pawns” in eastern europe dying by nuke…yea, they would. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/18/2024 10:51:41 AM EDT
[#29]
Originally Posted By SnoGoRider: They prepping their people for war? It's 95 pages and you can download it. It is a pretty in depth handbook just released. Plenty of online PDF translation converters. https://www.sargs.lv/lv/ka-rikoties-militara-konflikta-gadijuma https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/579091/q_png-3216841.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/579091/qq_png-3216842.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/579091/qqq_png-3216843.JPG This might work but only if the civilian population has arms and training, or ready access to arms and training like the Swiss and the Czechs do. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 11:03:19 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lou_Daks: The Soviet apologists in GD blame everything on NATO, including Pooty's hemorrhoids. NATO isn't the organization/state/dictator who's been invading countries recently. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 11:04:12 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Arty8: The only entity threatening the Baltics is the Military Industrial Complex in the United States, whose thirst for money is insatiable. This. If Russia had steamrolled Ukraine in three days, I’d be more concerned. They’re bogged down by a marginally equipped second or third tier military. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 11:07:17 AM EDT
[#32]
Originally Posted By SnoGoRider: They prepping their people for war? It's 95 pages and you can download it. It is a pretty in depth handbook just released. Plenty of online PDF translation converters. https://www.sargs.lv/lv/ka-rikoties-militara-konflikta-gadijuma https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/579091/q_png-3216841.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/579091/qq_png-3216842.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/579091/qqq_png-3216843.JPG Thank you OP, I'm interested in this - as I'm sure much of this pertains to othe possible dessasters. If you do find a nice clean English translation, please post? |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 5/18/2024 11:24:10 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lazyengineer: Thank you OP, I'm interested in this - as I'm sure much of this pertains to othe possible dessasters. If you do find a nice clean English translation, please post? yes would be interesting to read a copy there is a lot of underlying dread in Europe these days. they don't have thousands of miles of ocean as a security buffer |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 11:38:08 AM EDT
[#34]
Wow and it's in english too
How nice of them to think of us  |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 11:41:01 AM EDT
[#35]
So another nation is facing reality, unlike our current
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Posted: 5/18/2024 11:55:24 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: This is a problem with a lot of Russian shills. It is acted as though nobody has agency if they want to join the more prosperous and free Western alliance. NOPE. It was America who forced them to "want" to join. Waving our hand at them like a Jedi mind trick. Just like the other bs propaganda by the Kremlin that the US only hates Russia because they're supposedly only country that will say "no" to it. I mean, I can point out to a ton of examples of our Western partners giving us the middle finger on requests we've made. But yeah, we'll just go with Russian bullshit that all of US allies are just empty husks that follow every American command.  Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: Originally Posted By xd341: Your going to have to accept that we played a part. That's the reality. You can argue that we should expand NATO, that Ukraine should be a member, and you'd probably be surprised by my opinion on that. But what you can't do is stick your fingers in your ears and yell "I can't hear you" everytime someone points out the timeline. We fucked around in Ukranian internal politics, something that was the domain of Russia, then putin invaded Crimea. Then we sent the VP out to publically invite Ukraine into NATO and putin invaded the rest of Ukraine. We were obviously peeling Ukraine out of the Russian sphere of influence. We knew it, NATO and the EU knew it, and Putin knew it. You have two choices here, either the US foreign policy establishment is incompetent beyond description, or they knew exactly what they were doing, and this whole thing is roughly on track. It's no small irony to me that many of the people here that can't see the reality of the Ukraine war also have acute TDS. You guys aren't skeptical enough of government. This is a problem with a lot of Russian shills. It is acted as though nobody has agency if they want to join the more prosperous and free Western alliance. NOPE. It was America who forced them to "want" to join. Waving our hand at them like a Jedi mind trick. Just like the other bs propaganda by the Kremlin that the US only hates Russia because they're supposedly only country that will say "no" to it. I mean, I can point out to a ton of examples of our Western partners giving us the middle finger on requests we've made. But yeah, we'll just go with Russian bullshit that all of US allies are just empty husks that follow every American command. You don't KNOW what THE FUCK YOU ARE TALKING. Nobody invites NATO membership and this was the same for Hungary. WE ASKED and we VOTED FOR IT. I know so because I was living in Hungary at the time we held elections to vote for NATO membership. Nobody is FORCED to join NATO but everyone here is kind of armchair keyboard commando that keeps leaving out KEY details that are critical to their own way of thinking. It's like only eating fried chicken at the buffet place and nothing else. This is the same for all of Central Europe and those that joined. WE ASKED TO JOIN and we submitted FORMAL membership applications after VOTING FOR IT. After those criterias are done are we invited and given formal invitations. But keep drinking fucken koolaid believing membership is shoved down peoples throats. It isn't.
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Posted: 5/18/2024 11:59:13 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jozsi: You don't KNOW what THE FUCK YOU ARE TALKING. Nobody invites NATO membership and this was the same for Hungary. WE ASKED and we VOTED FOR IT. I know so because I was living in Hungary at the time we held elections to vote for NATO membership. Nobody is FORCED to join NATO but everyone here is kind of armchair keyboard commando that keeps leaving out KEY details that are critical to their own way of thinking. It's like only eating fried chicken at the buffet place and nothing else. This is the same for all of Central Europe and those that joined. WE ASKED TO JOIN and we submitted FORMAL membership applications after VOTING FOR IT. After those criterias are done are we invited and given formal invitations. But keep drinking fucken koolaid believing membership is shoved down peoples throats. It isn't. Nope that's not how it works. I watched a YouTube video and the guy was wearing a plate carrier so you know he's legit. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 11:59:54 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Paul: 100% BULL SHIT PROPAGANDA. China has been targeting American infrastructure for the last 25 years every nano-second of the day. My firewalls would see hundreds of attacks from China every minute of every day starting in about 1998 until I retired. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Paul: Originally Posted By SnoGoRider:Coming soon after FBI Director Christopher Wray warned that China is targeting American infrastructure, it looks like the world is not only fracturing once again, but that the hostile blocs are engaged in covert warfare. 100% BULL SHIT PROPAGANDA. China has been targeting American infrastructure for the last 25 years every nano-second of the day. My firewalls would see hundreds of attacks from China every minute of every day starting in about 1998 until I retired. Correct, I worked 25U and 25B as a reserve technician for Corps of Engineers offices and we saw PENETRATION EVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERY FUCKEN DAY since 1999. EVERY FUCKEN DAY. Same penetrations from the same intelligence agencies in China. We had a major penetration back in 2008 when some stupid fucken computer engineer faked his internal financial management program build by going to Hong Kong and having it built in one months time. The program penetrated all of the Corps of Engineers Financial Management Servers all over the world. We literally had to shut shit down. That stupid fuck wasn't fired and was just demoted. EVERY FUCKEN DAY until I medically retired in 2021, we can see the attacks in the network. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 12:00:45 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lou_Daks: One country invaded another, unprovoked. There is no moral equivalence between them. How much more cogent do I have to be? Kamala stood up at a Nato or EU meeting and openly invited Ukraine into NATO, that's Ukraine's and NATO's right. That's fine. But that is a provocation. It was clear to everyone that it was a provocation. That doesn't mean you don't do it, it just means you should be ready for the action of the other side. I can call some big drunk dude a cocksucker, but I might get in a fight. Doesn't mean it wasn't my right to say it, but it also doesn't mean I'm not gonna get punched. Our president literally said, after watching Putin train troops, build FOBs and move assets to the border...for a year, that if it was a limited invasion we probably wouldn't respond, or something to that effect, that's a green light in diplomatic terms. Critically examine the timeline leading up to the most recent invasion and you see plenty of opportunity to prevent it. We were either incompetent, which is possible, or we were willing to let Ukraine get punched to achieve some geopolitical goal. I don't like this train of thought and I'm always willing to explore the extents of government incompetence but at some point you have ask these questions. My instincts tell me this is a bat soup situation. In 20 years everyone will have a different take. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 12:01:41 PM EDT
[#40]
So my dating to relationship manual
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USA
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Posted: 5/18/2024 12:01:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: scuba_steve]
[#41]
[Deleted]
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MI, USA
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Posted: 5/18/2024 12:02:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ArmyInfantryVet]
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jozsi: You don't KNOW what THE FUCK YOU ARE TALKING. Nobody invites NATO membership and this was the same for Hungary. WE ASKED and we VOTED FOR IT. I know so because I was living in Hungary at the time we held elections to vote for NATO membership. Nobody is FORCED to join NATO but everyone here is kind of armchair keyboard commando that keeps leaving out KEY details that are critical to their own way of thinking. It's like only eating fried chicken at the buffet place and nothing else. This is the same for all of Central Europe and those that joined. WE ASKED TO JOIN and we submitted FORMAL membership applications after VOTING FOR IT. After those criterias are done are we invited and given formal invitations. But keep drinking fucken koolaid believing membership is shoved down peoples throats. It isn't. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jozsi: Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: Originally Posted By xd341: Your going to have to accept that we played a part. That's the reality. You can argue that we should expand NATO, that Ukraine should be a member, and you'd probably be surprised by my opinion on that. But what you can't do is stick your fingers in your ears and yell "I can't hear you" everytime someone points out the timeline. We fucked around in Ukranian internal politics, something that was the domain of Russia, then putin invaded Crimea. Then we sent the VP out to publically invite Ukraine into NATO and putin invaded the rest of Ukraine. We were obviously peeling Ukraine out of the Russian sphere of influence. We knew it, NATO and the EU knew it, and Putin knew it. You have two choices here, either the US foreign policy establishment is incompetent beyond description, or they knew exactly what they were doing, and this whole thing is roughly on track. It's no small irony to me that many of the people here that can't see the reality of the Ukraine war also have acute TDS. You guys aren't skeptical enough of government. This is a problem with a lot of Russian shills. It is acted as though nobody has agency if they want to join the more prosperous and free Western alliance. NOPE. It was America who forced them to "want" to join. Waving our hand at them like a Jedi mind trick. Just like the other bs propaganda by the Kremlin that the US only hates Russia because they're supposedly only country that will say "no" to it. I mean, I can point out to a ton of examples of our Western partners giving us the middle finger on requests we've made. But yeah, we'll just go with Russian bullshit that all of US allies are just empty husks that follow every American command. You don't KNOW what THE FUCK YOU ARE TALKING. Nobody invites NATO membership and this was the same for Hungary. WE ASKED and we VOTED FOR IT. I know so because I was living in Hungary at the time we held elections to vote for NATO membership. Nobody is FORCED to join NATO but everyone here is kind of armchair keyboard commando that keeps leaving out KEY details that are critical to their own way of thinking. It's like only eating fried chicken at the buffet place and nothing else. This is the same for all of Central Europe and those that joined. WE ASKED TO JOIN and we submitted FORMAL membership applications after VOTING FOR IT. After those criterias are done are we invited and given formal invitations. But keep drinking fucken koolaid believing membership is shoved down peoples throats. It isn't.  Maybe read my post again? It was mixed with sarcasm though. I'm arguing against the Russian bullshit narrative that the US is coercing countries to join NATO. Versus the fact countries actually wanting badly to join of their own volition. They all knew that independence from Russia would be very brief; unless they joined up with NATO. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 12:07:48 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TxRabbitBane: I love how folks like you totally ignore that Putin has been trying to put together Soviet Union v2.0 since before your timeline, this is intentional to justify saying the US is responsible and poor Russia was forced into declaring war, which is total nonsense. This PoV is the product of "alternative news" sites, often with funding coming out of Russia. It's funny, you guys can't handle someone that doesn't fit the mold. I can believe we had a part in starting this, and believe that we should aggressively attack Russian forces in Ukraine. Shit! there isn't a talking point for that opinion on your Ukiebro NPC flash cards.  Cause it's not a pro russian narrative. It's reality. You guys literally don't know what to do.  Maybe crack a history book. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 12:08:14 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: My point is it wasn't unprovoked. Kamala stood up at a Nato or EU meeting and openly invited Ukraine into NATO, that's Ukraine's and NATO's right. That's fine. But that is a provocation. It was clear to everyone that it was a provocation. That doesn't mean you don't do it, it just means you should be ready for the action of the other side. I can call some big drunk dude a cocksucker, but I might get in a fight. Doesn't mean it wasn't my right to say it, but it also doesn't mean I'm not gonna get punched. Our president literally said, after watching Putin train troops, build FOBs and move assets to the border...for a year, that if it was a limited invasion we probably wouldn't respond, or something to that effect, that's a green light in diplomatic terms. Critically examine the timeline leading up to the most recent invasion and you see plenty of opportunity to prevent it. We were either incompetent, which is possible, or we were willing to let Ukraine get punched to achieve some geopolitical goal. I don't like this train of thought and I'm always willing to explore the extents of government incompetence but at some point you have ask these questions. My instincts tell me this is a bat soup situation. In 20 years everyone will have a different take. So, the U.S. govt "greenlighted" a "limited" invasion by the Soviets, and that makes the invasion cool with you? lol Well, we have reached an impasse, clearly, about the moral equivalance of invader vs. invadee. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 12:12:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#45]
Step 1:
Call America Step 2: ?????? Step 3: Profit |
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USA
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Posted: 5/18/2024 12:12:50 PM EDT
[#46]
After looking at Russian dumpster performance in Ukraine, Russia isn't taking over the European continent without nukes and at that point nothing matters
I'm pretty sure Poland could stonewall a conventional attack from russia |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 12:14:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Lou_Daks]
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By staringback05: After looking at Russian dumpster performance in Ukraine, Russia isn't taking over the European continent without nukes and at that point nothing matters I'm pretty sure Poland could stonewall a conventional attack from russia I agree with you, esp. if the Soviets are tied in up Ukr at the same time. The Soviets are not breeding fast enough to re-supply their convention mil. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 12:15:27 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroE: All of Europe is preparing. The US is fiddling around unprepared as usual, two or three years behind and is about to be faced with an internal crisis that no one would have believed before about 1995. Now it's believable and active, just not as critical as we'll see too soon. The war has as started, but it's in the warm up stage as Russia and Ukraine shoot at each other and drag the rest in slowly. Several nations are on the fence about which faction they will support. The ideologues will side with Russia, China, N Korea, and Iran. The rest are weighing which side will pass out the most money, aid, and capital construction projects. Pick up a few military aircraft, too The US has executed 100% more that Europe in preparation of this goal, the issue is Europe is 100x more reliant on the US for military support than what is being done. In reality they are doing jack and shit commensurate with their stake in this problem. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 5/18/2024 12:16:54 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lou_Daks: So, the U.S. govt "greenlighted" a "limited" invasion by the Soviets, and that makes the invasion cool with you? lol Well, we have reached an impasse, clearly, about the moral equivalance of invader vs. invadee. There is not an insignificant contingent on this site that believes Ukraine asking for and being in desperate need of lethal aid to fight against a Russian invasion in a real existential matter, as being the same thing as the unkempt guy standing outside of your local Walmart with a cardboard sign. I don't know how people see these as being equivalent, are smart enough to even write the word "the". |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 5/18/2024 12:17:33 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: It's a big problem I've noticed with Americans. Any response we make as a society HAS to be a wild excessive shift to the other side. George Floyd killed? Ban the police! Trump accused of colluding with Russia? That means Russia are the real anti-Corrupt country and are our best pals! We seem to really struggle finding a rational middle ground. Like ok, Hitlery and Dems went overboard on Russia. But uh....guys.... Russia is still a fervent adversary of us lol. They're still the evil empire Reagan talked about. They have 1/7 of the world's land mass for a reason. That's not an American thing, that's a Hegelian dialectic as used by the left thing. The extremes are so when the "consensus" is made, or things go back to "normal" that the new normal is left of where it started. Rinse, lather, repeat and in a few decades you've moved the average way far left. Remember all of the news you're providing as an example is covered by a left-controlled media and most of the supposed third parties involved like protest groups are also under control via leadership loyal to the left; the rest are just the useful idiots. |
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