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Posted: 3/28/2024 8:29:44 PM EDT
https://www.twz.com/air/four-army-ah-64-apaches-have-now-crashed-in-just-two-months |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 8:31:51 PM EDT
[#1]
I'm sure a DEI mechanic will get right on that.
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Posted: 3/28/2024 8:33:29 PM EDT
[#2]
I'd say it's warranted.
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Posted: 3/28/2024 8:34:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11boomboom]
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By d16man: I'm sure a DEI mechanic will get right on that. I'll talk to my buddy. He falls into that category.  (he's a conservative dude from Pakistan, was US Infantry in Iraq and now a NG helicopter mechanic) 
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AK, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2024 8:35:31 PM EDT
[#4]
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Posted: 3/28/2024 8:36:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11boomboom]
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryOriginally Posted By feetpiece: Originally Posted By BuckeyeRifleman: I'd say it's warranted. /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/subnetfavoritelol-1033.gif I totally missed that.  Attached File |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 8:39:45 PM EDT
[#6]
Sucks, lost a good friend to a training accident years ago, killed himself and his copilot under NVG's.
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Posted: 3/28/2024 8:40:47 PM EDT
[#7]
Maybe they should ground the pilots?
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Posted: 3/28/2024 8:44:28 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cda97: Sucks, lost a good friend to a training accident years ago, killed himself and his copilot under NVG's. When I left active duty, I looked at reserve Army aviation since the Marines brought that J model on quick and I was getting mothballed. At the time, the Army was bending a lot of metal (late 90's)... I went to two squadrons. I didn't want to go to war with what I saw there. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 8:45:14 PM EDT
[#9]
@billytehbob
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SC, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2024 8:47:30 PM EDT
[#10]
Figured this would happen.
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Posted: 3/28/2024 8:48:52 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By billytehbob: Figured this would happen. Is there any reason you can think of that's causing it? Apaches are awesome and saved my bacon more than once. |
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USA
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Posted: 3/28/2024 8:50:47 PM EDT
[#12]
 Beastie Boys - Sabotage |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 8:51:41 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ZitiForBreakfast: When I left active duty, I looked at reserve Army aviation since the Marines brought that J model on quick and I was getting mothballed. At the time, the Army was bending a lot of metal (late 90's)... I went to two squadrons. I didn't want to go to war with what I saw there. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ZitiForBreakfast: Originally Posted By cda97: Sucks, lost a good friend to a training accident years ago, killed himself and his copilot under NVG's. When I left active duty, I looked at reserve Army aviation since the Marines brought that J model on quick and I was getting mothballed. At the time, the Army was bending a lot of metal (late 90's)... I went to two squadrons. I didn't want to go to war with what I saw there. In my opinion you made a good call. I ETS'd in 1995 and thought I would try the Illinois Army Reserves and then the National Guard. They were a fucking soup sandwich, nobody gave a shit, uniforms looked like shit. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 8:55:14 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cda97: In my opinion you made a good call. I ETS'd in 1995 and thought I would try the Illinois Army Reserves and then the National Guard. They were a fucking soup sandwich, nobody gave a shit, uniforms looked like shit. My buddy says the same about his NG Shit-hook maintenance group. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 8:58:04 PM EDT
[#15]
Army aviation needs to bring in some USAF people to straighten up their training programs.
The USAF is like a bible cult level focus on the details Navy is middle of the road Army Aviation is as disorganized as dogs*it I fly with all 3 and you can tell who is who in under a minute. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 8:59:18 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 11boomboom: My buddy says the same about his NG Shit-hook maintenance group. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 11boomboom: Originally Posted By cda97: In my opinion you made a good call. I ETS'd in 1995 and thought I would try the Illinois Army Reserves and then the National Guard. They were a fucking soup sandwich, nobody gave a shit, uniforms looked like shit. My buddy says the same about his NG Shit-hook maintenance group. Its sad, people were there for the college money. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 9:02:52 PM EDT
[#17]
The article doesn't offer much explanation except that there have been problems in the past with the generators putting smoke into the cockpit and that the one Apache that crashed had an Air Force pilot flying it.
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Posted: 3/28/2024 9:03:09 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ZitiForBreakfast: When I left active duty, I looked at reserve Army aviation since the Marines brought that J model on quick and I was getting mothballed. At the time, the Army was bending a lot of metal (late 90's)... I went to two squadrons. I didn't want to go to war with what I saw there. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ZitiForBreakfast: Originally Posted By cda97: Sucks, lost a good friend to a training accident years ago, killed himself and his copilot under NVG's. When I left active duty, I looked at reserve Army aviation since the Marines brought that J model on quick and I was getting mothballed. At the time, the Army was bending a lot of metal (late 90's)... I went to two squadrons. I didn't want to go to war with what I saw there. But they did, for 20 years. Only time I went to sea was on a National Guard 60 in the Persian Gulf. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 9:04:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BuckeyeRifleman]
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 11boomboom: Is there any reason you can think of that's causing it? Apaches are awesome and saved my bacon more than once. Blackhawk guy, so I’m sure Apache guys are gonna have better insight. The Apache mishap rate is much higher than other Army airframes. Some of it is training, some of it is design, some of it’s the complexity of the systems that need to be managed. Some of it is training with regards to design characteristics. Some of it is the change from the primary training helicopter from the TH-67 to the LUH. There have been a lot of class A mishaps across the board this year in Army Aviation. It’s not a coincidence Army Aviation as a whole went from being very seasoned to very inexperienced in a very short amount of time recently. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 9:06:35 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BuckeyeRifleman: Blackhawk guy, so I’m sure Apache guys are gonna have better insight. The Apache mishap rate is much higher than other Army airframes. Some of it is training, some of it is design, some of it’s the complexity of the systems that need to be managed. Some of it is training with regards to design characteristics. Some of it is the change from the primary training helicopter from the TH-67 to the LUH. There have been a lot of class A mishaps across the board this year in Army Aviation. It’s not a coincidence Army Aviation as a whole went from being very seasoned to very inexperienced in a very short amount of time. That sucks. 
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USA
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Posted: 3/28/2024 9:08:30 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ZitiForBreakfast: When I left active duty, I looked at reserve Army aviation since the Marines brought that J model on quick and I was getting mothballed. At the time, the Army was bending a lot of metal (late 90's)... I went to two squadrons. I didn't want to go to war with what I saw there. Well luckily that was 30 years ago and has nothing to do with anything |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2024 9:10:09 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 11boomboom: Is there any reason you can think of that's causing it? Apaches are awesome and saved my bacon more than once. I can only speculate, and the details are extremely scarce, but my guess is some loss of tail rotor effectiveness, which seems to be the new thing as of late. Could’ve been just a rash of bad luck or poor crew mix. Who knows. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 9:12:23 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ZitiForBreakfast: When I left active duty, I looked at reserve Army aviation since the Marines brought that J model on quick and I was getting mothballed. At the time, the Army was bending a lot of metal (late 90's)... I went to two squadrons. I didn't want to go to war with what I saw there. From the guy that just came to my unit from the Marines, it sounds like things are quite the opposite from where things were 30 years ago. Like anything things are very unit dependent. Army Aviation as a whole is struggling with the experience gap right now, but so is every branch. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 9:13:17 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By billytehbob: I can only speculate, and the details are extremely scarce, but my guess is some loss of tail rotor effectiveness, which seems to be the new thing as of late. Could’ve been just a rash of bad luck or poor crew mix. Who knows. That's fair. My chopper mechanic friend has explained to me how crazy everything is routed in the powertrains to the rotors on the rotary stuff he works on so I could see that. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 9:15:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AWHAILYEAH]
[#25]
We just lost one with two very experienced pilots 3 weeks ago.............................
 
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Posted: 3/28/2024 9:17:09 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AWHAILYEAH: We just lost one with two very experienced pilots 3 weeks ago............................. https://i.imgur.com/T4Q7GgL.png That's terrible. I hope they fix whatever the hell is going on with them. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 9:21:23 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AWHAILYEAH: We just lost one with two very experienced pilots 3 weeks ago............................. https://i.imgur.com/T4Q7GgL.png https://i.imgur.com/JQFT0Y3.png 
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Posted: 3/28/2024 9:23:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: DASJUDEN]
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By billytehbob: I can only speculate, and the details are extremely scarce, but my guess is some loss of tail rotor effectiveness, which seems to be the new thing as of late. Could’ve been just a rash of bad luck or poor crew mix. Who knows. Without going into too many details for obvious reasons. Mississippi AH64 Class A crash with 2 fatalities - Pilot error. Blatant fucking pilot error bordering on intentionally suicidal considering the pilots absolutely fucking knew better. The LUH crash down on the border I've got no clue. JBLM AH64 Class A with minor injuries - Tail rotor issue, possibly LTE, possibly they hit a tree with the tail rotor. investigation still underway. Carson AH64 Class A with minor injuries - LTE suspected. Aircraft was in 3 pieces. LTE is an issue especially in the E model. They gave us a bigger main rotor but kept the tail rotor the same size. I have no clue why anybody couldn't see this coming. |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2024 9:24:15 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AWHAILYEAH: We just lost one with two very experienced pilots 3 weeks ago............................. https://i.imgur.com/T4Q7GgL.png https://i.imgur.com/JQFT0Y3.png We were grounded for a week after that. Still have no idea what happened. I’m really not sure what the fix is, as my perspective is probably a bit different from active duty, but I know the Army is doing a piss poor job of trying to retain experience, instead opting to keep the new pilots longer. We’re also transitioning from COIN to LSCO tactics and techniques, the later being more inherently dangerous. |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2024 9:28:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: billytehbob]
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DASJUDEN: Without going into too many details for obvious reasons. Alabama AH64 Class A crash with 2 fatalities - Pilot error. Blatant fucking pilot error bordering on intentionally suicidal considering the pilots absolutely fucking knew better. The LUH crash down on the border I've got no clue. JBLM AH64 Class A with minor injuries - Tail rotor issue, possibly LTE, possibly they hit a tree with the tail rotor. investigation still underway. Carson AH64 Class A with minor injuries - LTE suspected. Aircraft was in 3 pieces. LTE is an issue especially in the E model. They gave us a bigger main rotor but kept the tail rotor the same size. I have no clue why anybody couldn't see this coming. I’ve heard the 72 was LTE as well. I was talking about these crashes this morning in Flt ops, I’d be surprised somewhat if we’re not grounded for a minute with all this LTE shit going on, though I think we don’t have an issue with it in SC. Being we’re much closer to sea level, rarely do we ever have high winds and flyable weather, and we generally have 30ish% power margin when we first take off. I may mitigate shit like terrain flight by flying it towards the end of the flight now for the extra envelope of power. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 9:28:31 PM EDT
[#31]
I've been out and was never Air Crew but I'll be damned I thought the Apache and the Hawk were stout Airframes able to withstand a hard landing/crash? Damn shame some of our best in what we consider the best equipment being lost. No word as to why yet around here either but 7 of them flew into Starkville three days ago I assume headed to Jackson or some backwoods airfield for inspection/maintenance??
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Posted: 3/28/2024 9:29:57 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By billytehbob: I’ve heard the 72 was LTE as well. I was talking about these crashes this morning in Flt ops, I’d be surprised somewhat if we’re not grounded for a minute with all this LTE shit going on, though I think we don’t have an issue with it in SC. Being we’re much closer to sea level, rarely do we ever have high winds and flyable weather, and we generally have 30ish% power margin when we first take off. I may mitigate shit like terrain flight by flying it towards the end of the flight now for the extra envelope of power. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By billytehbob: Originally Posted By DASJUDEN: Without going into too many details for obvious reasons. Alabama AH64 Class A crash with 2 fatalities - Pilot error. Blatant fucking pilot error bordering on intentionally suicidal considering the pilots absolutely fucking knew better. The LUH crash down on the border I've got no clue. JBLM AH64 Class A with minor injuries - Tail rotor issue, possibly LTE, possibly they hit a tree with the tail rotor. investigation still underway. Carson AH64 Class A with minor injuries - LTE suspected. Aircraft was in 3 pieces. LTE is an issue especially in the E model. They gave us a bigger main rotor but kept the tail rotor the same size. I have no clue why anybody couldn't see this coming. I’ve heard the 72 was LTE as well. I was talking about these crashes this morning in Flt ops, I’d be surprised somewhat if we’re not grounded for a minute with all this LTE shit going on, though I think we don’t have an issue with it in SC. Being we’re much closer to sea level, rarely do we ever have high winds and flyable weather, and we generally have 30ish% power margin when we first take off. I may mitigate shit like terrain flight by flying it towards the end of the flight now for the extra envelope of power. Explain LTE? |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 9:30:59 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DASJUDEN: Without going into too many details for obvious reasons. Mississippi AH64 Class A crash with 2 fatalities - Pilot error. Blatant fucking pilot error bordering on intentionally suicidal considering the pilots absolutely fucking knew better. The LUH crash down on the border I've got no clue. JBLM AH64 Class A with minor injuries - Tail rotor issue, possibly LTE, possibly they hit a tree with the tail rotor. investigation still underway. Carson AH64 Class A with minor injuries - LTE suspected. Aircraft was in 3 pieces. LTE is an issue especially in the E model. They gave us a bigger main rotor but kept the tail rotor the same size. I have no clue why anybody couldn't see this coming. Especially with the move from training in TH67’s where LTE got hammered into our heads whether we liked it or not and the LUH where I get new pilots who have never even heard of LTE. That’s what I suspected with Mississippi. Fucking terrible. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 9:31:31 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By billytehbob: I’ve heard the 72 was LTE as well. I was talking about these crashes this morning in Flt ops, I’d be surprised somewhat if we’re not grounded for a minute with all this LTE shit going on, though I think we don’t have an issue with it in SC being much closer to sea level, rarely do we ever have high winds and flyable weather, and we generally have 30ish% power margin when we first take off. I may mitigate shit like terrain flight towards the end of the flight now for the extra envelope of power. Don't get complacent about it just because you're at sea level. Get the right crosswind and it'll occur. While I was attending IPC I had to take the controls from the SP I was riding with that day because we got LTE on short final going into Hanchey. Flying in Kansas (40kt+ winds are fairly common here) does have its occassional benefits. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 9:33:45 PM EDT
[#35]
Those of you aviation guys explain LTE?? Dafuq is it and why did it get implemented?
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Posted: 3/28/2024 9:35:26 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BuckeyeRifleman: Especially with the move from training in TH67’s where LTE got hammered into our heads whether we liked it or not and the LUH where I get new pilots who have never even heard of LTE. That’s what I suspected with Mississippi. Fucking terrible. Don't get me started on LUH vs TH67's. You can probably guess how long that "old man yells at clouds" rant will be. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 9:37:01 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cda97: In my opinion you made a good call. I ETS'd in 1995 and thought I would try the Illinois Army Reserves and then the National Guard. They were a fucking soup sandwich, nobody gave a shit, uniforms looked like shit. @cda97 Southern IL by any chance? Asking because my brother was in a reserve unit at SAFB around that timeframe. The powers that's be gave their helos to some other unit and closed down the unit. I don't remember how long the gap was, but he eventually transfered to an NG unit |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 9:37:48 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AWHAILYEAH: Those of you aviation guys explain LTE?? Dafuq is it and why did it get implemented? LTE is loss of tailrotor effectiveness. In stupid simple terms, if you get the right winds going through your tailrotor the wrong way it'll counteract the anti-torque effect from the tailrotor. Basically the helicopter starts to go into a damn near uncontrollable spin that if you don't catch it quick will generally result in a crash. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 9:38:54 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DASJUDEN: LTE is loss of tailrotor effectiveness. In stupid simple terms, if you get the right winds going through your tailrotor the wrong way it'll counteract the anti-torque effect from the tailrotor. Basically the helicopter starts to go into a damn near uncontrollable spin that if you don't catch it quick will generally result in a crash. Damn!! |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2024 9:39:43 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DASJUDEN: Don't get complacent about it just because you're at sea level. Get the right crosswind and it'll occur. While I was attending IPC I had to take the controls from the SP I was riding with that day because we got LTE on short final going into Hanchey. Flying in Kansas (40kt+ winds are fairly common here) does have its occassional benefits. It’s definitely in my head lately, but the only time I’ve run out of pedal was some flight control issue a few months out of progression in the D-model. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 9:40:27 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Storm6436: @cda97 Southern IL by any chance? Asking because my brother was in a reserve unit at SAFB around that timeframe. The powers that's be gave their helos to some other unit and closed down the unit. I don't remember how long the gap was, but he eventually transfered to an NG unit Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Storm6436: Originally Posted By cda97: In my opinion you made a good call. I ETS'd in 1995 and thought I would try the Illinois Army Reserves and then the National Guard. They were a fucking soup sandwich, nobody gave a shit, uniforms looked like shit. @cda97 Southern IL by any chance? Asking because my brother was in a reserve unit at SAFB around that timeframe. The powers that's be gave their helos to some other unit and closed down the unit. I don't remember how long the gap was, but he eventually transfered to an NG unit Nope, Reserve unit was out of Sugar Grove west of Chicago, the NG unit was at Midway airport but their sister unit was in central/mid Illinois. |
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KS, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2024 9:40:37 PM EDT
[#42]
At one point there were problems with the main rotor strap pack laminations. Interior ones would fail unseen until the crash investigation.
However it would appear the NG has broader problems. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 9:41:20 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By merick: At one point there were problems with the main rotor strap pack laminations. Interior ones would fail unseen until the crash investigation. However it would appear the NG has broader problems. It ain't just the guard that has problems. |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2024 9:43:13 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By merick: At one point there were problems with the main rotor strap pack laminations. Interior ones would fail unseen until the crash investigation. However it would appear the NG has broader problems. The NG is just being abundantly cautious. Theres nothing different between guard and active Echo models Apaches. |
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KS, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2024 9:55:04 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By billytehbob: The NG is just being abundantly cautious. Theres nothing different between guard and active Echo models Apaches. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By billytehbob: Originally Posted By merick: At one point there were problems with the main rotor strap pack laminations. Interior ones would fail unseen until the crash investigation. However it would appear the NG has broader problems. The NG is just being abundantly cautious. Theres nothing different between guard and active Echo models Apaches. Well one thing is different; the NG models are grounded, and that's really the only thing we know for certain. |
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AK, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2024 10:07:47 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 11boomboom: I totally missed that. /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/planet-of-the-apes-charlton-heston-992.gif  My first Warrant was a Legend of a CW5 in Korea who single-handedly ruined a company's worth of Joe's for the rest of the Army. There's nothing like watching a BDE CDR wilt when a Jedi tells him his Soldiers don't have time for stupid shit. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2024 10:10:35 PM EDT
[#47]
When Hurricane Fran was bearing down on Ft Bragg in 1996 we evacuated everything that could fly to Ft Campbell. We had Apaches in fields all over the place.
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SC, USA
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Posted: 3/29/2024 7:42:57 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By merick: Well one thing is different; the NG models are grounded, and that's really the only thing we know for certain. As of right now, we’re not. I read through the article, it only mentions the Guard grounding 64s back in February, which lasted about a week for us. Still ops normal as of now. |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 7:50:33 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AWHAILYEAH: We just lost one with two very experienced pilots 3 weeks ago............................. https://i.imgur.com/T4Q7GgL.png https://i.imgur.com/JQFT0Y3.png Zemek was a shooter. He may have been on here. |
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