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Posted: 3/25/2024 7:55:47 PM EDT
Recently came into an old .22 rifle.
 Attached File Attached File Attached FileHopkins and Allen Model 4922, "Our Famous Junior Repeating Rifle with Military Bolt Action". Fun little gun, but I can't get it to run right. |
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Posted: 3/25/2024 7:56:47 PM EDT
[#1]
We need some details on the "can't get it to run right" part.
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Posted: 3/25/2024 8:04:22 PM EDT
[#2]
(I also can't get the site to upload more than three pictures per post, it seems.)
Constantly getting failure to feed/failure to eject. Here's what the internals look like: Installed:  Attached FileRemoved, but in their relative positions:  Attached FileWhen you work the bolt, a new round pops into the receiver, but it's constantly misaligned, and sometimes takes two or three attempts at closing the bolt to get it in the chamber. I think the lifter isn't lifting all the way up Extractor does its job and pulls the case out of the chamber pretty easily. The lifter (curved shape on the right) is supposed to drop down during ejection. It doesn't, so the case just bounces around in the receiver until I can push the lifter down while flipping the rifle over to shake it out. I think the two springs (the u-shaped spring in the center and the one in the screw under the left side of the lifter) is the culprit--they're both pretty wore out. Has anyone had any experience with these rifles, and can help me troubleshoot? |
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Posted: 3/25/2024 8:16:18 PM EDT
[#3]
numrich has some parts, but from what I can tell not the springs you suspect may be the issue
https://www.gunpartscorp.com/gun-manufacturer/hopkins-allen/rifles-ha/junior-repeat-rifle |
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Posted: 3/25/2024 8:30:30 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: (I also can't get the site to upload more than three pictures per post, it seems.) Constantly getting failure to feed/failure to eject. Here's what the internals look like: Installed: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/30315/20240324_224040_-_Copy_jpg-3169409.JPG Removed, but in their relative positions: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/30315/20240325_185956_jpg-3169405.JPG When you work the bolt, a new round pops into the receiver, but it's constantly misaligned, and sometimes takes two or three attempts at closing the bolt to get it in the chamber. I think the lifter isn't lifting all the way up Extractor does its job and pulls the case out of the chamber pretty easily. The lifter (curved shape on the right) is supposed to drop down during ejection. It doesn't, so the case just bounces around in the receiver until I can push the lifter down while flipping the rifle over to shake it out. I think the two springs (the u-shaped spring in the center and the one in the screw under the left side of the lifter) is the culprit--they're both pretty wore out. Has anyone had any experience with these rifles, and can help me troubleshoot? Have you tried numrich for a parts diagram? 
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Posted: 3/25/2024 8:34:44 PM EDT
[#5]
Is it .22 Long rather than .22 Long Rifle?
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Posted: 3/25/2024 8:36:02 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is it .22 Long rather than .22 Long Rifle? And it appears to have a different name than the model 4922. |
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Posted: 3/25/2024 8:42:34 PM EDT
[#7]
Looks like maybe someone put an extra spring in there, could be one of the other springs is broken or other.
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Posted: 3/25/2024 8:44:52 PM EDT
[#8]
Does the extractor have good spring tension?
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Posted: 3/25/2024 8:50:46 PM EDT
[#9]
Nice rifle, it's worthy of proper repair. I would contact John Thomas if it were mine. (801) 441-2801 Retro Arms Works.
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Posted: 3/25/2024 8:58:45 PM EDT
[#10]
Replace every spring.
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Posted: 3/25/2024 10:53:39 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: numrich has some parts, but from what I can tell not the springs you suspect may be the issue https://www.gunpartscorp.com/gun-manufacturer/hopkins-allen/rifles-ha/junior-repeat-rifle I've already raided them for other parts (the extractor on this one was busted, couple of other pieces), so, yeah, no springs from them or anywhere else I can find. May have to source my own. Of which I know not step one of how to get custom springs. |
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Posted: 3/25/2024 10:54:33 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Have you tried numrich for a parts diagram? https://www.gunpartscorp.com/media/catalog/category/HopkinsandAllen_JuniorRepeatingRifle_schem.jpg Yep, see above. |
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Posted: 3/25/2024 11:03:02 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And it appears to have a different name than the model to end in the op. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Is it .22 Long rather than .22 Long Rifle? And it appears to have a different name than the model to end in the op.   Attached File |
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Posted: 3/25/2024 11:04:30 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Looks like maybe someone put an extra spring in there, could be one of the other springs is broken or other. All the parts match the parts list on Numrich. No spares. |
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Posted: 3/25/2024 11:11:01 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Does the extractor have good spring tension? Yes, I replaced it. The one part Numrich DID have. It's a weird part, too--the extractor is kept in place with a screw, that you then have to file most of it away to make it flush with the rest of the bolt.  Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 3/25/2024 11:13:47 PM EDT
[#16]
How is the alignment of the vertical arm of the L lever when the bolt is open and pulled back? It needs to slide into the slot to allow the lifter to move.
Measurements of the springs and their recesses, then a trip to the hardware store might be necessary. The hairpin spring can be made from a piece of music wire. I look for similar springs and springs with a more length or larger wire and an outer diameter that fits well. |
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Posted: 3/25/2024 11:13:52 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Replace every spring. Can't, none available. I'm down to looking at Ebay and Gunbroker looking for parts. So far, zip. |
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Posted: 3/25/2024 11:20:30 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How is the alignment of the vertical arm of the L lever when the bolt is open and pulled back? It needs to slide into the slot to allow the lifter to move. Quote HistoryQuoted: How is the alignment of the vertical arm of the L lever when the bolt is open and pulled back? It needs to slide into the slot to allow the lifter to move. Travels freely and stays upright. It fits in the slot on the bottom of the bolt, catches the front of that slot, which pulls it back, forcing the lifter to move up. That timing is a little off, for some reason. Measurements of the springs and their recesses, then a trip to the hardware store might be necessary. The hairpin spring can be made from a piece of music wire. I look for similar springs and springs with a more length or larger wire and an outer diameter that fits well. Music springs! Hadn't thought of that, but that's exactly what I need, I think. Might be able to make both of them. [runs to his Amazon account...] |
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Posted: 3/25/2024 11:20:54 PM EDT
[#19]
I have no troubleshooting advise to add other than replace all of the springs first, but that's been covered.
On a side note, my great grandpa's Hopkins and Allen 12ga is hanging over my fireplace. |
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Posted: 3/27/2024 6:50:59 PM EDT
[#20]
Okay, took another look at what it's actually doing. Two problems, a failure to feed, and a failure to extract, except I think they're both a related timing issue.
This time, with video. The lifter is coming up too soon. As the bolt comes back, it hits the back part of the lever, pushing the lifter up (green on green).  Attached FileExcept the lifter is coming up before the extracted shell is ejected, which blocks the empty from clearing the receiver. The FTF problem is tied to that, sorta--the new round isn't being pushed back into the lifter correctly, which means it's either not there at all or jams up. That might be a problem with the magazine tube follower spring being worn out; since this is the same basic functionality of other tube magazines, I should be able to buy like a Marlin tube mag follower spring and replace it. There's also a little catch on the side of the receiver that looks like it holds the next round outside of the receiver until the lifter pushes the ready round up, that doesn't seem to be doing its job--it's not letting the rounds past without a little finagling. (Which goes back to my mag tube follower spring worn out, it's not pushing hard enough to overcome the catch.) So, how do I adjust the timing on this thing? ETA: I also thought briefly it might be because it's not chambered for .22lr, but the ads from the day say it's for all the standard .22s (s-l-lr) |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 10:25:44 AM EDT
[#21]
Bump for more help. I'm stumped--nay, baffled, perplexed, dare I say, even flummoxed, on this one.
(Yes, I just got a Word of the Day calendar. Why do you ask?  )
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Posted: 3/28/2024 10:30:24 AM EDT
[#22]
Do you have access to an ultrasonic cleaner? I'd run the parts through one to ensure there isn't some old grease hardened up somewhere literally gumming up the works.
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Posted: 3/28/2024 10:39:04 AM EDT
[#23]
I wish I could get a first hand look.
Here's what I have learned about sorting out firearm function. Look at every part from every angle no matter whether you believe it's necessary. Do the same with the assembled rifle, roll it around to see how every part interacts. Partial disassemble to see if necessary. Use Dykem or a heavy application of magic marker and look for the tiniest indications of contact with magnification under bright light. Then take some time to mull over what you found. I have wondered about that spring that lifts the L lever from the start. Try the function with the spring either backed out as far as possible or removed I missed the video on my first read. I'm thinking about that now. Is the bottom of the receiver open? |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 3:28:42 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wish I could get a first hand look. Here's what I have learned about sorting out firearm function. Look at every part from every angle no matter whether you believe it's necessary. Do the same with the assembled rifle, roll it around to see how every part interacts. Partial disassemble to see if necessary. Use Dykem or a heavy application of magic marker and look for the tiniest indications of contact with magnification under bright light. Then take some time to mull over what you found. I have wondered about that spring that lifts the L lever from the start. Try the function with the spring either backed out as far as possible or removed I missed the video on my first read. I'm thinking about that now. Is the bottom of the receiver open? No, receiver is completely enclosed in the stock (think Rem 700 ADL). And interesting you mention that spring. The problem is the screw threads have ZERO Friction, so if it's not completely tight, it's completely loose. So I compressed that spring ALL the way, threaded the screw in all the way, and noted that spring is barely contacting the lifter arm when it's now in the lifted position. The feeding issues seemed to go away (1 in 10 FTF instead of 1 of 1). And the ejection issues got marginally better, if I went fairly slow with bolt retraction. If I was in any kind of a hurry the lifter acted like a guillotine and caught the case (actually, snap caps, this thing has NO safety, I'm not testing with live rounds  ) right in the middle. After much digging I finally found about 10 spent .22 cases, and it seems to be about as effective with the empties as with the snap caps.So...maybe....? |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 3:54:00 PM EDT
[#25]
First off really cool gun!!! Second, it seems like you know and understand how it's supposed to work but maybe instead of snap caps or spent casings try bringing it to the range and see how cycles when shooting live rounds?
Just for the heck of it I would try giving some oil to it and see how it works when it's all oiled up. Just some thoughts if you aren't able to replace all the springs. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 4:03:09 PM EDT
[#26]
If you need springs, give these guys a call. They might have something that can be adapted.
https://www.gunsprings.com/ |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 4:13:16 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistorySo, how do I adjust the timing on this thing? I wouldn't touch anything to try and adjust the timing until you find a source and replace every spring. You have to have some type of solid base to start with or your timing adjustment could just create another problem. Good luck. David |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 4:18:36 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can't, none available. I'm down to looking at Ebay and Gunbroker looking for parts. So far, zip. That’s what do almost every day for some of my old projects. Every once in a while you get lucky. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 4:24:10 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can't, none available. I'm down to looking at Ebay and Gunbroker looking for parts. So far, zip. Make it. They taught us that in the first semester of Gun Repair. Hard to diagnose just by photos and not seeing it in my hands. You might want to take it to Trinidad College and let someone repair it. Students need projects. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 4:59:59 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: First off really cool gun!!! Second, it seems like you know and understand how it's supposed to work but maybe instead of snap caps or spent casings try bringing it to the range and see how cycles when shooting live rounds? Just for the heck of it I would try giving some oil to it and see how it works when it's all oiled up. Just some thoughts if you aren't able to replace all the springs. That's where I started---this is all at the end of test fire #3. But SUCKS to drive 90 minutes round trip only to find your fix didn't work. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 5:07:23 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wouldn't touch anything to try and adjust the timing until you find a source and replace every spring. You have to have some type of solid base to start with or your timing adjustment could just create another problem. Good luck. David Fair point. Good news is, this just arrived:  Attached FileSo now I get to try my hand at springmaking.... |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 6:30:00 PM EDT
[#32]
Turns out I make springs about as well as I speak ancient Greek.
Top one is the original, next one down is my best attempt out of 4. She's ugly, but she works. So I'm going to have to loctite that screw in place. It's got maaaybe three threads engaged or the timing gets off. I also learned that the ejector spring works just fine--I'm throwing empty cases about 10 feet. At least two of them are sitting next to the last three front pivot pin detentes I tried to install--no idea where they went.  But I think that one is solved. If that lifter spring screw moves even a quarter turn further in, the timing is off. Not sure that's how the design worked, when I took it apart is was fully screwed in. I may cut a couple of coils off to get it further seated. And the failure to feed issue is now apparent. The lifter is not going down far enough to clear the rims coming out of the tube magazine. I'm sure it's worn down out of spec (it's only 120 years old...), but I don't know what "spec" is. And if I'm understanding it correctly, the piece that worn is the OPPOSITE of the green part of the lifter in the above pic, because that's where the bolt is pushing it forward that forces the lifter down enough. And that spring needs to be there, I tried it without, it got worse. Can I peen that up, like with an M1 Garand bullet guide, or do I have to have someone weld some material on to it? |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 6:48:25 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Turns out I make springs about as well as I speak ancient Greek. Top one is the original, next one down is my best attempt out of 4. She's ugly, but she works. So I'm going to have to loctite that screw in place. It's got maaaybe three threads engaged or the timing gets off. I also learned that the ejector spring works just fine--I'm throwing empty cases about 10 feet. At least two of them are sitting next to the last three front pivot pin detentes I tried to install--no idea where they went. But I think that one is solved. If that lifter spring screw moves even a quarter turn further in, the timing is off. Not sure that's how the design worked, when I took it apart is was fully screwed in. I may cut a couple of coils off to get it further seated. And the failure to feed issue is now apparent. The lifter is not going down far enough to clear the rims coming out of the tube magazine. I'm sure it's worn down out of spec (it's only 120 years old...), but I don't know what "spec" is. And if I'm understanding it correctly, the piece that worn is the OPPOSITE of the green part of the lifter in the above pic, because that's where the bolt is pushing it forward that forces the lifter down enough. And that spring needs to be there, I tried it without, it got worse. Can I peen that up, like with an M1 Garand bullet guide, or do I have to have someone weld some material on to it? Maybe try JB Weld and see if that's a good temporary fix before putting real metal down? |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 6:51:22 PM EDT
[#34]
Check Brownells or Midway for generic spring assortment they have small medium and large. You will find some of the right size, way easier than making them.
Replace magazine tube spring and completely disassemble and deep clean you will be surprised how much crud can be found in a 100 year old.22. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 7:03:40 PM EDT
[#35]
Could get this (not my auction)
As a spare to play with / test. Check out HOPKINS ALLEN JR REPEATING RIFLE 22LR. CARRIER & LIFTER ASSY #TG6071 on eBay! 
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Posted: 3/28/2024 7:54:32 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's where I started---this is all at the end of test fire #3. But SUCKS to drive 90 minutes round trip only to find your fix didn't work. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 8:01:14 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bump for more help. I'm stumped--nay, baffled, perplexed, dare I say, even flummoxed, on this one. (Yes, I just got a Word of the Day calendar. Why do you ask? )"Your candor is quite perplexing"
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Posted: 3/28/2024 8:02:51 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Make it. They taught us that in the first semester of Gun Repair. Hard to diagnose just by photos and not seeing it in my hands. You might want to take it to Trinidad College and let someone repair it. Students need projects. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Can't, none available. I'm down to looking at Ebay and Gunbroker looking for parts. So far, zip. Make it. They taught us that in the first semester of Gun Repair. Hard to diagnose just by photos and not seeing it in my hands. You might want to take it to Trinidad College and let someone repair it. Students need projects. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 8:54:39 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Check Brownells or Midway for generic spring assortment they have small medium and large. You will find some of the right size, way easier than making them. Replace magazine tube spring and completely disassemble and deep clean you will be surprised how much crud can be found in a 100 year old.22. Did the deep clean a year ago. And yes, it was FILTHY. Some areas I thought was rust was just 120 years of accumulated dried oil and carbon. It's pretty clean now, any crud that's in there is from the maybe 20 rounds I've fired while troubleshooting. My pastor gave me this rifle. His dad had passed away, left him with several, and he doesn't shoot, at all. I helped him sell a couple of them, including "selling" an Ithaca Flues double barrel (by figuring out what the going rate was on Gunbroker, adding $200 so I didn't feel like I was ripping him off, and keeping it myself, I'd always wanted a double-barrel....  ), and he gave me this as a thank you. Said it had been in his family so long, he wanted it to go to someone who would appreciate it. Mag tube spring is on order, though I'm starting to think that's not it. (Can't hurt, though.) I'm just going with one for like a Marlin--they're the same size, do the same thing, should work. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 8:55:16 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Could get this (not my auction) As a spare to play with / test. Check out HOPKINS ALLEN JR REPEATING RIFLE 22LR. CARRIER & LIFTER ASSY #TG6071 on eBay! https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/X8MAAOSwzPJkWrBg/s-l1600.png Saw that one yesterday. May have to go that route. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 8:57:46 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So glad I can step out in the backyard to shoot. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: That's where I started---this is all at the end of test fire #3. But SUCKS to drive 90 minutes round trip only to find your fix didn't work. Same  ETA/ It comes in very handy when working up custom loads for my handguns. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 9:24:16 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Same ETA/ It comes in very handy when working up custom loads for my handguns. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: That's where I started---this is all at the end of test fire #3. But SUCKS to drive 90 minutes round trip only to find your fix didn't work. Same ETA/ It comes in very handy when working up custom loads for my handguns. Everybody CAN shoot in their backyard. At least once.
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Posted: 3/28/2024 9:53:41 PM EDT
[#43]
Sounds like weak springs in multiple places. Good luck! To be honest and maybe I'm wrong but the rifle looks on the low end. It may be a a better candidate for the wall at the "Winchester".
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Posted: 3/29/2024 7:43:04 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sounds like weak springs in multiple places. Good luck! To be honest and maybe I'm wrong but the rifle looks on the low end. It may be a a better candidate for the wall at the "Winchester". Oh, these things go for $200-300 on Gunbroker when they show up...and that's the mint condition ones. No illusions that this is some kind of collector's piece. But EVERY non-functional firearm can be repaired (just depends how much effort you want to put in it). I'm not going to let five cents of spring steel sideline a functional firearm. I'm learning something, I'm doing something, I'll be honoring a friend, his family, and his dad by shooting it, and it engages my brain in ways my job doesn't. So, yeah, the fate of the free world doesn't rest on this rifle working. But while I'm working on this, I'm not harassing the wife or kicking the dog, so net win for everyone.
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Posted: 3/29/2024 7:46:51 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Same ETA/ It comes in very handy when working up custom loads for my handguns. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: That's where I started---this is all at the end of test fire #3. But SUCKS to drive 90 minutes round trip only to find your fix didn't work. Same ETA/ It comes in very handy when working up custom loads for my handguns. I dragged my wife around the country for 26 years living in some absolute shitboxes. We retired to a house she loves...it just happens to be smack in the middle of town. Absolutely not my first choice, but I figured I owe her. |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 8:05:53 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can't, none available. I'm down to looking at Ebay and Gunbroker looking for parts. So far, zip. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Replace every spring. Can't, none available. I'm down to looking at Ebay and Gunbroker looking for parts. So far, zip. -This Old Tony |
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