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Posted: 5/6/2024 10:52:46 AM EDT
 Why switching shoulders with a rifle is a bad idea with Paul Howe. Geez; Paul is striking out a lot lately |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 5/6/2024 10:55:38 AM EDT
[#1]
Depending who you train with, it has been like this for over a decade.
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Posted: 5/6/2024 10:58:43 AM EDT
[#2]
Having used a rifle in combat....thats bad advice. Not switching shoulders puts WAY too mucb of your body into the open
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Posted: 5/6/2024 11:08:27 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By wvfarrier: Having used a rifle in combat....thats bad advice. Not switching shoulders puts WAY too mucb of your body into the open we put a huge emphasis on this in rifle training at work. In fact, 50% of our qual courses are support side shooting (100 yards and in). |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 5/6/2024 11:12:41 AM EDT
[#4]
Some instructors recommend rarely if ever switching, another btdt guy says only for special situations, another btdt recommends it often. Paul is one of the btdt guys who recommends against it. I suspect that more than 99% of people will never put in enough training time to make it work . I'm with Paul on this.
Paul completed missions and survived because of a 'keep it simple, do what works, no frills' philosophy. I also suspect that extremely few commenters on this forum have even one one hundredth of Pauls experience. |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 11:16:06 AM EDT
[#5]
I’ve really only been in this situation once. This was back when we, or certainly I, received little training on the matter. Switching shoulders just seemed natural to me, and was what I did without thinking much about it.
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AK, USA
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Posted: 5/6/2024 11:17:28 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MarkHatfield: Some instructors recommend rarely if ever switching, another btdt guy says only for special situations, another btdt recommends it often. Paul is one of the btdt guys who recommends against it. I suspect that more than 99% of people will never put in enough training time to make it work . I'm with Paul on this. Paul completed missions and survived because of a 'keep it simple, do what works, no frills' philosophy. I also suspect that extremely few commenters on this forum have even one one hundredth of Pauls experience. Not a LEO hater but a retired SF SNCO's opinion carries a lot more weight than a badge. 
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Posted: 5/6/2024 11:24:53 AM EDT
[#7]
Switching shoulders is flat out wrong in most cases.
Nobody shoots as well from the weak side...nobody. Your body position is almost always super wrong when transitioning and people constantly end up tangled in their sling/mag pouches/radio antenna. People regularly fail to manipulate the controls correctly, fail to apply marksmanship fundamentals.... The "cover" you gain is generally not cover...its sheetrock and doors...you aren't actually gaining any cover. You can't see as well because you are hiding behind something like sheetrock that isn't actually protecting you...but you are depriving yourself of the ability to see what is about to kill you. It's just stupid in 99% of cases. Yes, you should know how to do it and there are very specific circumstances where you need to do it...but its just wrong for most situations. Wear your plates...expose to the point where you can see and shoot...and handle threats by engaging them with the correct level of force, not hiding from them. YMMV. |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 11:32:54 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MarkHatfield: Some instructors recommend rarely if ever switching, another btdt guy says only for special situations, another btdt recommends it often. Paul is one of the btdt guys who recommends against it. I suspect that more than 99% of people will never put in enough training time to make it work . I'm with Paul on this. Paul completed missions and survived because of a 'keep it simple, do what works, no frills' philosophy. I also suspect that extremely few commenters on this forum have even one one hundredth of Pauls experience. Interesting that people who ran the same missions as Paul, some even on the same days, saw the need in bilateral shooting and actively drilled it once they came back to the states. It certainly has its benefits and refusing to learn it is short changing yourself. |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 11:34:36 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By feetpiece: Not a LEO hater but a retired SF SNCO's opinion carries a lot more weight than a badge. https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-28-2023/PcQZdC.gif  Attached File |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/6/2024 11:36:46 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FedDC: Switching shoulders is flat out wrong in most cases. Nobody shoots as well from the weak side...nobody. Your body position is almost always super wrong when transitioning and people constantly end up tangled in their sling/mag pouches/radio antenna. People regularly fail to manipulate the controls correctly, fail to apply marksmanship fundamentals.... The "cover" you gain is generally not cover...its sheetrock and doors...you aren't actually gaining any cover. You can't see as well because you are hiding behind something like sheetrock that isn't actually protecting you...but you are depriving yourself of the ability to see what is about to kill you. It's just stupid in 99% of cases. Yes, you should know how to do it and there are very specific circumstances where you need to do it...but its just wrong for most situations. Wear your plates...expose to the point where you can see and shoot...and handle threats by engaging them with the correct level of force, not hiding from them. YMMV. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 5/6/2024 11:40:28 AM EDT
[#11]
lol
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Posted: 5/6/2024 11:56:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: NCPatrolAR]
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FedDC: Nobody shoots as well from the weak side...nobody. Your body position is almost always super wrong when transitioning and people constantly end up tangled in their sling/mag pouches/radio antenna. People regularly fail to manipulate the controls correctly, fail to apply marksmanship fundamentals.... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FedDC: Nobody shoots as well from the weak side...nobody. Your body position is almost always super wrong when transitioning and people constantly end up tangled in their sling/mag pouches/radio antenna. People regularly fail to manipulate the controls correctly, fail to apply marksmanship fundamentals.... Virtually all of that is addressed via training. Sling management isnt a big issue and can be resolved in numerous ways. You can't see as well because you are hiding behind something like sheetrock that isn't actually protecting you...but you are depriving yourself of the ability to see what is about to kill you. This doesnt really make sense. If it is a detriment using cover/concealment when the carbine is on your support side does that mean it also a detriment when the carbine is on your strong side? Wear your plates...expose to the point where you can see and shoot...and handle threats by engaging them with the correct level of force, not hiding from them.  |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 12:09:01 PM EDT
[#13]
While it is far from optimal when compared to strong side shooting I prefer to know how to shoot from my support side and be comfortable doing it if I ever feel the need to.
Taking a pistol class offhand only can be an ego bruising affair but I suggest that every serious student of self defense do so. |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 12:12:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Scoobysmak]
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doty_soty: I’ve really only been in this situation once. This was back when we, or certainly I, received little training on the matter. Switching shoulders just seemed natural to me, and was what I did without thinking much about it. I was in this situation ONCE.....I can't talk about it.....G14 classified......about the only think I can say is peeps were involved and penalties were assessed .....   ETA...and I learned I needed to really practice this if I ever had to do it.....because currently I suck.  |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 12:24:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ManiacRat]
[#15]
Is this another situation where you hear 5000 opinions and all of the opinioners believe only they are right.
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Posted: 5/6/2024 12:26:21 PM EDT
[#16]
It takes a bit of practice but can work well. Do it all the time in USPSA and IPSC PCC. Yes its not combat and no one is shooting back at me but it works well for shooting around barricades.
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Posted: 5/6/2024 12:30:49 PM EDT
[#17]
There is a podcast between Matt Pranka, Kyle Defoor and Mike Pannone talking about this but it's no longer IG.
Supposedly, it's very rarely done, according to those guys. |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 12:40:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ManiacRat]
[#18]
Mr. Howe has a lot of good info. I respect his opinion, to a degree. Lately he has come across as a very black and white person in a world of gray.
I've been taught and have practiced moving strong to weak and back again for a long time. Does it mean I will ALWAYS transition? No. Absolutely not. It's a tool for the tool box. His example of a hostage shot is a PRIME example of when it may not be the best idea. This hard line opinion harks back to his weapon light opinion. There's bad instances where it isn't a good idea so it MUST be bad and not used ever. Come on! We are amazingly adaptable creatures who can learn various methods for various situations. |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 12:41:59 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FedDC: Switching shoulders is flat out wrong in most cases. Nobody shoots as well from the weak side...nobody. Your body position is almost always super wrong when transitioning and people constantly end up tangled in their sling/mag pouches/radio antenna. People regularly fail to manipulate the controls correctly, fail to apply marksmanship fundamentals.... The "cover" you gain is generally not cover...its sheetrock and doors...you aren't actually gaining any cover. You can't see as well because you are hiding behind something like sheetrock that isn't actually protecting you...but you are depriving yourself of the ability to see what is about to kill you. It's just stupid in 99% of cases. Yes, you should know how to do it and there are very specific circumstances where you need to do it...but its just wrong for most situations. Wear your plates...expose to the point where you can see and shoot...and handle threats by engaging them with the correct level of force, not hiding from them. YMMV. Switching shoulders is not weak side |
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USA
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Posted: 5/6/2024 12:43:06 PM EDT
[#20]
You can even swap shoulders without removing your hand from the grip. It's awkward but much less awkward than taking a round to an exposed area that didn't have to be exposed.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/6/2024 12:44:03 PM EDT
[#21]
I'm fine with what he says.
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Posted: 5/6/2024 12:44:05 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By juan223: While it is far from optimal when compared to strong side shooting I prefer to know how to shoot from my support side and be comfortable doing it if I ever feel the need to. Taking a pistol class offhand only can be an ego bruising affair but I suggest that every serious student of self defense do so. Switching shoulders is not support side shooting |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 12:44:46 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PeepEater: You can even swap shoulders without removing your hand from the grip. It's awkward but much less awkward than taking a round to an exposed area that didn't have to be exposed. That’s switching shoulders |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/6/2024 12:47:06 PM EDT
[#24]
All those Ken Hackashak and Paul Howe Wilson videos have been removed.
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OK, USA
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Posted: 5/6/2024 12:47:33 PM EDT
[#25]
As an observer of this debate the thing that sticks out to me is realistically how much time does the person have to train and how much of it should be spent on stuff that is less likely to occur instead of fundamentals and being able to place rounds accurately under pressure.
I live on and manage a range facility that we donate time on for several local PD's to train and qual. My observations of the average cop working with a rifle is that time working on switching shoulders is far down the list of things to spend time and resources on. No doubt that they should know how to do it on a basic level but I've yet to see any agency have the time to make someone good at it. The same thing applies to 95% of non LEO dudes I see working with a rifle. No doubt this varies by agency and location. I'm sure there are places out there with money and time to work on everything I just have not seen it personally. As far as SOF dudes its funny because guys who come from the same place can say directly opposing things on this topic. The ones who make the most sense to me as an outsider are guys like Pranka but Bob Keller is a big proponent of switching shoulders so I figure it comes down to shooters choice at that level. |
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WI, USA
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Posted: 5/6/2024 12:48:29 PM EDT
[#26]
I shoot rifle either hand naturally. Pistol feels odd, but can shoot left as well.
What does a right handed hunter up in a treestand do when a deer approaches from the right? Do they have to contort their body position in order to take the shot? Personally I shoot left handed in that scenario. |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 12:49:24 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JCIN: As an observer of this debate the thing that sticks out to me is realistically how much time does the person have to train and how much of it should be spent on stuff that is less likely to occur instead of fundamentals and being able to place rounds accurately under pressure. I live on and manage a range facility that we donate time on for several local PD's to train and qual. My observations of the average cop working with a rifle is that time working on switching shoulders is far down the list of things to spend time and resources on. No doubt that they should know how to do it on a basic level but I've yet to see any agency have the time to make someone good at it. The same thing applies to 95% of non LEO dudes I see working with a rifle. No doubt this varies by agency and location. I'm sure there are places out there with money and time to work on everything I just have not seen it personally. As far as SOF dudes it's funny because guys who come from the same place can say directly opposing things on this topic. The ones who make the most sense to me as an outsider are guys like Pranka but Bob Keller is a big proponent of switching shoulders so I figure it comes down to shooters choice at that level. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/6/2024 12:55:19 PM EDT
[#28]
I've been in a class where a nationally very well known instructor (teaching the class) was asked about it by a regionally well known instructor, who also adjuncts for a nationally well known training company, who was a student in the class.
I had taken a bunch of classes from the question asker so I knew what he taught and where he stood. The class instructor advised the complete opposite when he answered the question. So who the fuck knows. |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 12:55:35 PM EDT
[#29]
...extremely few commenters on this forum have even one one hundredth of Pauls experience.
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Posted: 5/6/2024 12:59:53 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StevenH: Switching shoulders is not support side shooting And yet you knew exactly what I meant |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 1:03:05 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By juan223: And yet you knew exactly what I meant Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By juan223: Originally Posted By StevenH: Switching shoulders is not support side shooting And yet you knew exactly what I meant Much of GD does not. |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 1:03:41 PM EDT
[#32]
Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtlRz7CudKsGeez; Paul is striking out a lot lately Back in the day when I was first being taken through shoothouses by operators and former operators they saw absolutely no value in switching shoulders. In fact, a relatively well known guy now said way back then that "they" found you'd have to have your strong arm darn near cut off before you'd consider working from the other shoulder. It's funny watching how things have evolved. |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 1:04:15 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StevenH: Switching shoulders is not support side shooting Switching shoulders is in fact commonly called support side shooting since you are shooting off the support side of your body. Did the definition of it change at some point in the past 20 years? |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 1:05:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: juan223]
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JCIN: As an observer of this debate the thing that sticks out to me is realistically how much time does the person have to train and how much of it should be spent on stuff that is less likely to occur instead of fundamentals and being able to place rounds accurately under pressure. I live on and manage a range facility that we donate time on for several local PD's to train and qual. My observations of the average cop working with a rifle is that time working on switching shoulders is far down the list of things to spend time and resources on. No doubt that they should know how to do it on a basic level but I've yet to see any agency have the time to make someone good at it. The same thing applies to 95% of non LEO dudes I see working with a rifle. No doubt this varies by agency and location. I'm sure there are places out there with money and time to work on everything I just have not seen it personally. As far as SOF dudes its funny because guys who come from the same place can say directly opposing things on this topic. The ones who make the most sense to me as an outsider are guys like Pranka but Bob Keller is a big proponent of switching shoulders so I figure it comes down to shooters choice at that level. And that's because cops in the vast majority of departments don't train unless they're forced to by their department. The cops that are on the firing line in most classes are either paying their own way or have found a way to get their department to pay for it. When a department mandates a class the questions usually revolve around "whens lunch?" and "when do we get out of here" So yes, the folks you're seeing, I'd wager the vast majority of them need to focus on the raw basics |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 1:07:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: StevenH]
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NCPatrolAR: Switching shoulders is in fact commonly called support side shooting since you are shooting off the support side of your body. Did the definition of it change at some point in the past 20 years? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NCPatrolAR: Originally Posted By StevenH: Switching shoulders is not support side shooting Switching shoulders is in fact commonly called support side shooting since you are shooting off the support side of your body. Did the definition of it change at some point in the past 20 years? Support side is the same as weak side. Shooting as a lefty for most shooters. “Switching shoulders” is still operating the controls with the strong hand. The only change is you’ve moved the stock to the other shoulder pocket. It’s right there in the name. What are we switching? Shoulders.. |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 1:10:23 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NCPatrolAR: we put a huge emphasis on this in rifle training at work. In fact, 50% of our qual courses are support side shooting (100 yards and in). Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NCPatrolAR: Originally Posted By wvfarrier: Having used a rifle in combat....thats bad advice. Not switching shoulders puts WAY too mucb of your body into the open we put a huge emphasis on this in rifle training at work. In fact, 50% of our qual courses are support side shooting (100 yards and in). Since you spend so much time on “support side shooting”, I’ll assume every single officer in your dept can score 100% on the qual using strong side only, right? Can you tell us what the hit percentage is of any officer involved shooting in your dept before and after to justify this training? |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 1:10:48 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ManiacRat: Is this another situation where you hear 5000 opinions and all of the opinioners believe only they are right. ...and in truth, in the realm of fighting there can be more than one right answer. A lot of it depends on the lens it is viewed from. Someone who is proficient can learn to be nearly as effective running from the other shoulder with a long gun. But how many people are proficient? How much time do you spend training to run from the other side? Does that take time and resources away from becoming proficient in the first place? There are good arguments to be made about where you put time and resources to get a workable result. I can swap shoulders with a shotgun easily because I spend a fair bit of time running a shotgun from the left shoulder since I teach left handed people, too. I spend zero time in my introductory courses teaching people to run the shotgun from the opposite shoulder. In my most advanced course, I do...because mastery means you are able to run the gun effectively regardless of which hand it's in. Or, frankly, even if you've only got one working hand. But the time we spend on that in the most advanced class would be counterproductive in the basic level classes. It's something I only put out there when we're training proficient people. I can't take someone who is struggling to be competent and teach them that. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 5/6/2024 1:11:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ArmyInfantryVet]
[#38]
MOUT is one of those areas where many units and leaders have their own preferences on how to train for urban combat. As the old saying goes.... There's more than one way to skin a cat.
People get caught up on Dogma on this stuff.
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Posted: 5/6/2024 1:14:49 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By John_Wayne777: Back in the day when I was first being taken through shoothouses by operators and former operators they saw absolutely no value in switching shoulders. In fact, a relatively well known guy now said way back then that "they" found you'd have to have your strong arm darn near cut off before you'd consider working from the other shoulder. It's funny watching how things have evolved. I wouldn't advocate it in a "shoot house" room clearing situation either, is that the specific situation Howe is talking about or is he a "never ever, so don't bother to learn how" kinda fella? |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 1:15:07 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StevenH: Support side is the same as weak side. Shooting as a lefty for most shooters. “Switching shoulders” is still operating the controls with the strong hand. The only change is you’ve moved the stock to the other shoulder pocket. It’s right there in the name. What are we switching? Shoulders.. Switching shoulders while maintaining conventional hand placement is often called a hasty shoulder transition while switching shoulders and hands is called a dedicated transition. It is still switching shoulders aka support side shooting though |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 1:17:49 PM EDT
[#41]
Magpul made it look so hawt
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Posted: 5/6/2024 1:18:34 PM EDT
[#42]
That boomer needs to understand that war has changed and his experience is useless in the modern fight.
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OK, USA
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Posted: 5/6/2024 1:20:25 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By juan223: And that's because cops in the vast majority of departments don't train unless they're forced to by their department. The cops that are on the firing line in most classes are either paying their own way or have found a way to get their department to pay for it. When a department mandates a class the questions usually revolve around "whens lunch?" and "when do we get out of here" So yes, the folks you're seeing, I'd wager the vast majority of them need to focus on the raw basics Which is kind of what the whole discussion boils down to for everyone not in a SOF unit or full time SWAT team. We also host well known trainers so I see the cops who show up to those as well. On average about a third are what I would classify as decent shooters. The rest are what I consider beginner level shooters. D class in USPSA terms. A few are excellent and worked their ass off to get there. |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 1:21:30 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MarkHatfield: Some instructors recommend rarely if ever switching, another btdt guy says only for special situations, another btdt recommends it often. Paul is one of the btdt guys who recommends against it. I suspect that more than 99% of people will never put in enough training time to make it work . I'm with Paul on this. Paul completed missions and survived because of a 'keep it simple, do what works, no frills' philosophy. I also suspect that extremely few commenters on this forum have even one one hundredth of Pauls experience. Exactly this. I've seen patrol officers train on rifle. They suck. Bad. Like Paul Howe says most patrol officers don't have enough training with their strong side... they certainly don't have spare time to develop their support side. I train to a higher level that Paul Howe on carbine so yeah, I train support my side too... but I also do 60 yard headshot up drills in half a second, CSAT standards with Nightvision, and point shooting with a carbine, all kinds of other fun stuff that a lot of people will simply never do. |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 1:21:54 PM EDT
[#45]
But where does he stand on ceramic plates vs steel?
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Posted: 5/6/2024 1:21:55 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ManiacRat: Mr. Howe has a lot of good info. I respect his opinion, to a degree. Lately he has come across as a very black and white person in a world of gray. I've been taught and have practiced moving strong to weak and back again for a long time. Does it mean I will ALWAYS transition? No. Absolutely not. It's a tool for the tool box. His example of a hostage shot is a PRIME example of when it may not be the best idea. This hard line opinion harks back to his weapon light opinion. There's bad instances where it isn't a good idea so it MUST be bad and not used ever. Come on! We are amazingly adaptable creatures who can learn various methods for various situations. He also quit delta after Mogadishu because they weren't good enough for him. B |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 1:22:06 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Claytonhoneyberry: Since you spend so much time on “support side shooting”, I’ll assume every single officer in your dept can score 100% on the qual using strong side only, right? Can you tell us what the hit percentage is of any officer involved shooting in your dept before and after to justify this training? It is easily justified through maximizing the use of cover and available support for lower percentage shots a rifle officer might take. Only a moron would advocate exposing more of a shooter's body because they were too lazy to train to push the gun to the other side of their body. We take dudes and having them shooting 90+ on our qual courses (100 yards and in; day and night) where each position is shot strong and support side. It gives the officers way more confidence to handle situations they might find themselves in since they know they can shoot the gun from either side of their body. |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 1:22:24 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JimEN: I've been in a class where a nationally very well known instructor (teaching the class) was asked about it by a regionally well known instructor, who also adjuncts for a nationally well known training company, who was a student in the class. I had taken a bunch of classes from the question asker so I knew what he taught and where he stood. The class instructor advised the complete opposite when he answered the question. So who the fuck knows. I took some classes where we switched back and forth and it seemed pretty easy. But I was using a single point sling. It seems too awkward to me with a modern two point sling. |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 1:27:13 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By juan223: I wouldn't advocate it in a "shoot house" room clearing situation either, is that the specific situation Howe is talking about or is he a "never ever, so don't bother to learn how" kinda fella? Id make use of switching shoulders in a structure as well depending on what we were doing. Paul, ime, is pretty much one way or no way. When I trained with him he wasnt an advocate of shooting on the move either. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 5/6/2024 1:29:51 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MarkHatfield: Some instructors recommend rarely if ever switching, another btdt guy says only for special situations, another btdt recommends it often. Paul is one of the btdt guys who recommends against it. I suspect that more than 99% of people will never put in enough training time to make it work . I'm with Paul on this. Paul completed missions and survived because of a 'keep it simple, do what works, no frills' philosophy. I also suspect that extremely few commenters on this forum have even one one hundredth of Pauls experience. People want to look like ninjas on the range. But what makes guys "high speed" is mastery of basics/fundamentals. My unit did switching shoulders thing, but I can see the arguments against it. Especially if people aren't putting in the work to be good at shooting with their support hand side. Like I said in an above post. MOUT is a place where people have different philosophies. |
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