Just one question for the pro-choice people.If you were 5-6 months or whatever pregnant.Someone informed the BATF that you had a illegal machine gun.They broke in and shoved hit and you miscarried.Would you call this murder.What makes the diffrence between this and you making a decision.Its still the same baby.

Im not 100% agianst this but I believe there should be less than 1% of whats going on now

Well said Arcangel.  My thoughts exactly. Making personal choices should not be critisized because what is right for you isn't necessarily right for me.  

garandman said:

what my beef is is this -

...that other peoples beliefs about non-gun issues contradict THEIR beliefs about RKBA.
---------------------------------------------

You are a fool, probably an old fool. Other peoples beliefs about non-gun issues contradict YOUR beliefs about RKBA, not OUR beliefs on RKBA. The more I read your stuff the more I realize that you and I are at completely opposites ends of the spectrum. I'm sure we could have a fun afternoon at the range but nowhere else. The problem with people like you is that you expect everyone to conform to your ideas otherwise there is something wrong with them. You sound like every other pro-lifer out there. Some pregnancies are better off being aborted. Here is the perfect case and unfortunately it happened to me and my wife. My wife was 3 months pregnant when my oldest son came home from school with chicken pox and infected my wife (who had never had it obviously, strange for a 30+ yr old woman). My wife asked her doctor if that was a problem. Apparently it is a problem, women who get chicken pox during pregnancy have a high risk of birth defects (horrible birth defects). Our doctor advised us to get an abortion after many tests. It was a very hard thing to do, even though both my wife and I are pro-choice, we are not pro-abortion. It tore us apart to have to get that abortion and even worse was having to deal with the pro-lifers that happened to be picketeting the clinic that day, people like you who believe your way is the only way. Now having learned my rules of conduct in the USMC the rough way I'm not very tolerant of people f*cking with me (specially when I was already emotionally f*cked-up from having my wife have to go through this abortion). So we're trying to get into this place and there are the lovers of life screaming shit to us like "baby-killer" and the like. Easy enough to ignore, but then one aggressive pro-lifer grabs my wife's arm and starts yelling in her face. That was my breaking point. I only hit him once and crushed in his cheek bone, dropped him like a bad habit. He went to sleep and we got into the clinic. 15 minutes later my wife is on the operating table and I'm hoping that everything is going well, same time 4 cops barge in and are wanting to arrest me for assault & battery. Luckily there were people in the clinic that saw the guy grab my wife and insisted that all I was doing was defending my wife. The cops bought the story and left to talk to crushed-in face man in the ambulance who did not regain his senses yet to be able to speak. He later sued me but the jury wasn't buying it either.
Those pro-lifers are just lucky I wasn't packing that day or I might have done something that I would have regretted for a long time.

Armalite - members of the BATF are not prosecutable for things they do to civilians in the course of their duties, so you call it what you like. Actually they would say it was unfortunate that a pregnant woman attacked them and they were only defending themselves. But yes I would call it murder and exact my own justice if needed. I am pro-choice but have never wanted an abortion for convienance. My post above shows exactly why we need the right to choose. If you can't see why then you are blind.

I'm not 100% sure what to say! I don't agree totally with any you.  Most of you will not agree with me, thats fine too. I am a right winger to the max. Abortion is murder, mothers lifes in danger or not, it is Gods choice to make not ours. Kill an abortionist, I don't fully agree or disagree but I'm leaning toward it was in defense of the unborn. As far as forcing my views on you, well, this country was founded by men and women who left their homes to start a religiously free new world. It is, in my opinion, that their idea of religious freedom(I am basing this on our constitution, our money, and every important aspect that deals with validifying anything of immense importance such as, taking office, testifying and pledging allegience to the flag just to name a few) was that you may live here in peace and enjoy your freedom but it will be in accordance with God. YOU DO NOT have to believe but YOU WILL obey the laws that we have set forth to honor his will. Now, some of you may say well thats not freedom. Freedom is not anarchy. In order to have "freedom" you must also have rules. Like it or not, the rules were made by religious people with God as a guide. Now the rules are being changed to trample on religion. Well, not religion, but on God. As for you "christians" out there who are pro-choice, well that will make for interesting conversation between you and the Lord. I am not without sin by any means, but what makes me different from you is that I do NOT proclaim my sins as right. They are wrong and to say that they are right to try to justify yourself is a slap in the face of the Lord.  

Bobby see my last sentence.I agree with you on this one .Sorry for you and your wife.I dont know if I'm right on my % but I'm probally real close.

GOD help us!!!! IT`S full moon time again folks!!!!!.....[frag].....[uzi]....[shotgun].....[rail].......[beer].....[smoke].....[smash].....[rocket].....[puke].....[sex].....[grenade].....[sleep].....

No need to apologize, disclaim or censor yourself. The point that folks seem to miss on the pro-gun pro-life issues it the followin, I think. The reason Garandman and others have tried to point it out is because the objective of both--gun-control and abortion is the death not only of the body but of the spirit as well.
You are either abide by the spirit or you do not. The inconsistency that is disheartening as GM points out is that some will defend their guns and therefore their lives, but they will take lives of innocents because it may not serve them, their career or whatever. Inconsistent indeed.

Any wonder that folks do not value life when they will abort it for all manner of reasons? Logic follows that when that loss of respect for life is achieved, rights are easily given away as well.

We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren till she transforms us into beasts… For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst, and to provide for it. --Patrick Henry

"Bad men cannot make good citizens. It is when people forget God that tyrants forge their chains.  A vitiated state of morals, a corrupted public conscience, is incompatible with freedom. No free government, or the blessings of liberty, can be preserved to any people but by a firm adherence to justice, moderation, temperance, frugality, and virtue; and by a frequent recurrence to fundamental principles."  --Patrick Henry

Actually Miss M......I owe you an apology.

Abortion is an issue that I get very, lets say to an almost meltdown point, fired up about.

Partly because I used to be pro-choice then, later, I became very anti.

It was totally arrogant of me to question your Christianity, sincerity or reasons for your own personal beleifs.

I have not, as they say, walked in your shoes and therefore had no right to take the road with you that I did.

I am certainly not any any position to be casting the first, or any for that matter, stones at you.

I suppose what really gets me about the abortion issue.........and partial birth abortions is that these have become nothing more than a means of birth control in far too many cases.  There are other options available.

I know that in some cases abortion may be the only option available in order to save the life of the mother.

I also know that in cases of rape or insest it is used as well.

Again, I have not walked in your shoes and I do not know your reasons for beleiving as you do.

I am against abortion as a means of birth control for adults and even minors who ought to know better.  This is wrong wrong wrong and God will exact His punishment for all the souls that have been deprived of the life He gives.  So be it.  God's Law.....not mine.

But I also know that anything the govt. can legalize or ban for that matter can also be flipped about to the other side of the coin.  If
the govt. is to legislate morality then they could very well up and say one day that each household must have a certain number of children or can only have a maximum number of children and would at that point be running our lives.  Not what anyone wants.

Again, I am sorry for makeing the comments I did.

I am sorry to doubt your Christianity and your faith.

I do know that, as wrong as I think abortion is, that I, being a very human sinner, would probably seek that option in the case of my wife being raped or my daughter being raped and becoming pregnant.

I know that God blesses all births and that He has a plan for every child born no matter how they come into the world but, God forgive me, I would probably not be strong enough to handle it the way I should.


Like I said....Sorry.....I ask your forgiveness.

Garandman, I am going to disagree with you here.

The worst extremes of a view point are those that are pro-choice and anti-capital punishment.

I actually saw a car several days ago with bumper stickers that stated that contradiction.

Also, since I have already met you in person, if I ever see you in a skirt (a kilt is different) I WILL shoot you on sight.  

You will have obviously lost your mind and need killin'

For those of you that do not live in the South the reason of "He needed killin' is a legitmate defense in court.

On to the other business.

Some of you are the whiniest bi***es I have ever heard, and I am really getting my craw full of you.
You whine when you bust the speed limit and get a ticket and whine when someone says something you don't like and scream like a bit*h when someone mentions religon, saying: "Don't shove it down my throat".

There are absolutes in this world.

God established them.

Take it up with Him.

Half of you have considered suicide and it is no wonder why. You are really fouled up, you have no concrete meaningfull values in your life.
And then you argue you are happy being that way. Oh yeah, I believe that.

Flame away!
[blue]Blue207[/blue]  

First off, it is a matter of opinion if there are moral absolutes in this world. Second, it is a matter of opinion WHOSE version of those moral absolutes is correct and third, from which version of God.
Wars have been fought over this subject, so don't expect anyone to take your word for it.

[size=3]
[b]And professing themselves to be wise they became as fools.[/b][/size=3]

Your right to believe in God's Laws are guarenteed by the First Amendment.  The only real protection that the Frist Amendment has is the Second Amendment.  I believe that the RKBA is not one of God's laws, but the protection of a citizen's right to believe in those laws.  Indeed, it's the protection of a citizen to not believe in God's laws as well.  I don't link the RKBA with anything religious.  

You are correct that if the nation decends into slavery, your RKBA will go with it.  What I'm saying is that the Constitution is what prevents that slide, and the RKBA is what guarentees the Constitution.  I sould be able to believe in the RKBA, the Constitution and whatever religion I wish to or not to.  It may, or may not, be the same as your's, but my belief in RKBA will be just as strong because I know it's what makes all the rest happen.

Ross

Still trying to see the connection between abortion and the RKBA.

Unlike you, who don't have the brains to profess to be wise, but are still a fool.

I will not argue with you rik for I have found that when one argues with a fool the end result is only defeat by a more experienced adversary.


You go right on and think what you want.

I don't need you or all your scientific answers to tell me what to do with my life.

Likewise you have made it explicitly clear that you have no need for my view of reality.

Guess you'll just have to find out the hard way.

Too bad.

I am through with you.

And by the way.........you know nothing of me and I can assure you that you'd find yourself dismally out classed in a match of wits or anything else for that matter, with me.

Ah, another malapropism.  Why would a fool have more experience at arguing?  You don't seem to be very good at it, so I would hazard a guess that fools lack something in the way of arguing skills.



There was never any danger of anything else.  I change my mind based on my processing of the facts, not from a half-assed argument by some faceless collection of pixels on a computer screen.



I never tried to tell you what to do with your life, and frankly I couldn't care less.  You're not interesting enough for me to care.



Glad I got that across at least.



Oh yada yada yada. "You'll find out someday!" the last refuge of someone with no argument and no facts.



Don't cry for me, Argentina.  You seem to have enough problems of your own.



ROFL! Yeah, you fundamentalists keep SAYING that...but then you always seem to come back again and again and again...
Seems like a lack of moral fiber.



Sure thing, bubba. To be honest, I already know too much about you and don't wish to discover anything else.  You simply aren't worth it.

One Delta Ten Tango

Rikwriter, that is just my point. It is not my word that anything is established. I am mere flesh and blood. I am nothing. Even my word in my own house stands until my wife changes it.

God's word is what establishes everything. Without preaching to you I would ask if you ever studied the prophesies of the Bible, especially the ones that were made 4 thousand years ago that have ALL come to pass.

Are you saying you do not know what to believe in, or you are just not sure which "version" to believe.

I have a suggestion - no - a challange for you. Like I said in the first post "Take it up with Him".  

Ask Him, you know, God what is correct.
Don't tell me you would feel stupid talking to someone that is not there, because I know you are setting there right not talking to you computer (as you are reading this). It's not alive, it won't talk back.

Humor me here. What do you have to lose?

What might you have to gain?

Again, it's very much a matter of opinion if the Bible or ANY so-called "holy book" was written by any god.



Not only have I studied the Bible since I was old enough to read, I also have studied the debunking of the so-called prophecy fulfillment.



I don't believe ANY of the "holy books" were written by ANY god, frankly. I don't declare flatly that this is the case, but that is my opinion on it.



Who? The Christian God? Allah? Ahura Mazda? Odin? Zeus? Vishnu?  



If there is a God, He is most certainly correct. You, however, and all other believers, are not God by humans and thus could be incorrect in your beliefs.



Umm...I was a Christian for over two decades.  Spent plenty of time talking to something that turned out, in my opinion at least, not to be there.



Time. Self-respect.



Nothing. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt that says "I am an ex-Christian."

Rikwriter:

I am referring to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, AKA the Christian God.

Which other one has the track record that stands the test of time.

Which one has raised the dead, healed the sick and delivered the oppressed AND given salvation as a gift.
All other religions put you in the position of "earning" your way to paradise. The only problem with that is how much is enough.
Also where is their track record.

I have been the reciepant of an instant healing.
I have watched drug addicts (people that I was acquainted with) recieve total deliverences without any withdrawls.
BTW - I am a police officer. I responded to a motorcycle collision with a car and the rider went over 20 feet in the air over the car after impact and landed on his head - no helmet. A Lieutenant witnessed the collision and called for the Accident Reconstruction Team - reserved for very serious for fatal injures. I was seconds away and when I arrived the guy was laying in a pool of blood, coming mainly from his head. A black man was praying for him with his hand on the man's chest and claimed healing.
The wreck victim was rushed to the ER and was TREATED AND RELEASED WITH MINOR INJURIES.  
He should have died!!!

I got news for you - you never bought in to it - you just said the words and got disappointed when nothing happened. You have to let Him all the way in.

You are bitter because of that experience.  

For that I am truly sorry.

Well, the Jews would dispute that you're really worshipping the same God as that of Abraham, so you're really talking about two thousand years as the mark for the existence of Christianity.  There are several religions just as old. Hinduism is even older.



No religion can prove it has done any of that, including yours.



Their track record in what sense?



Your pardon if I don't take your word for this.



Again, I am not going to take the word of a person whose real name I don't even know.



I got news for you: you don't know me and I don't accept your judgements of what I did or did not do.  I will just say this: if I was not "saved" then it is impossible to BE saved.  



Actually no, I am not. I have nothing about which to be bitter.  I have had a fairly good life, I have my health, a comfortable existence, a wife who loves me and a great little boy who runs me ragged.  My life has had little setbacks, but nothing major and certainly nothing to make me bitter.  I simply examined the evidence and made another decision.
I know it is beyond your capability to believe that someone could, after having been totally comitted to Christianity (as I was), simply change their mind. That possibility would threaten your worldview. But that's the way it happened, and I really don't care whether you believe it.



No reason to be. I like the way I am.  I waste much less time than I used to.