Your rights on a commercial aircraft - Page 5

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Your rights on a commercial aircraft (Page 5 of 10)

Posted: 4/24/2017 5:17:54 PM EDT

[#1]

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So if you buy a car, the dealership can come and take it back from your driveway because one of their employees wants it?

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Posted: 4/24/2017 5:20:40 PM EDT

[#2]

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Did high_order1 pay you to use your house for a quinceanera but you decided after all the guests arrived that you'd make more money if your wife hosted a candle sales party?

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what if the guest start breaking stuff?
what if he observes illegal activity?
what if he is in violation of the terms of agreement, like the party has to end by 10:00 pm?

what if the maximum occupancy is exceeded and it's a safety issue?

Posted: 4/24/2017 5:25:18 PM EDT

[#3]

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"Pilot in command" is defined in FAA regs. The authority of the "pilot in command" from an airline perspective starts when he shows up for pre-flight planning and ends when he is released after the flight.

His authority from a legal/"I am in charge" point of view starts when the "flight" begins. That point is defined as different actions, on different aircraft designs. For flying boats, I think it is when it is untied from the dock. For land planes, it seems to be when the aircraft is rendered physically capable of taxiing and flying, and ends when it is no longer capable of independent taxiing and flying. I do not know where the specific legal definitions of that are kept.

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Where is the federal definition of this?

"Pilot in command" is defined in FAA regs. The authority of the "pilot in command" from an airline perspective starts when he shows up for pre-flight planning and ends when he is released after the flight.

His authority from a legal/"I am in charge" point of view starts when the "flight" begins. That point is defined as different actions, on different aircraft designs. For flying boats, I think it is when it is untied from the dock. For land planes, it seems to be when the aircraft is rendered physically capable of taxiing and flying, and ends when it is no longer capable of independent taxiing and flying. I do not know where the specific legal definitions of that are kept.

you request a pushback, PIC is when that tow bar flexes, he is dispatched

Posted: 4/24/2017 5:26:02 PM EDT

[#4]

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now you are just being silly.

if they tell you you need to get of the plane and you start yelling at them or in any way acting belligerent, you just made yourself a disruptive passenger.

if you respectfully and politely say, I'm sorry, but under the contract you agreed to, I'm not giving up my seat...

two different situations and you know it.

and still, they will have you off the plane in the end. How it plays out is up to you. The cameras can work against you too.

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I would LOVE for them to try that. LOVE LOVE LOVE

"Sir, you look like my ex-boyfriend. I need to you deplane."
"That isn't a valid reason under the Contract of Carriage. I'm not going anywhere."
"You are being disruptive. Police!!! Security!!!"

Please.

now you are just being silly.

if they tell you you need to get of the plane and you start yelling at them or in any way acting belligerent, you just made yourself a disruptive passenger.

if you respectfully and politely say, I'm sorry, but under the contract you agreed to, I'm not giving up my seat...

two different situations and you know it.

and still, they will have you off the plane in the end. How it plays out is up to you. The cameras can work against you too.

That was the situation that was provided though. We've been told that if the air crew wants you off then they will get you off and one of the given excuses was disruptive passenger clause.

I'm just showing that it isn't as wide ranging as the boot lickers want.

Posted: 4/24/2017 5:26:26 PM EDT

[#5]

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So if you buy a car, the dealership can come and take it back from your driveway because one of their employees wants it?

OK. You lease a car. Same question.

Posted: 4/24/2017 5:27:44 PM EDT

[#6]

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Quoted:
what if the guest start breaking stuff?
what if he observes illegal activity?
what if he is in violation of the terms of agreement, like the party has to end by 10:00 pm?

what if the maximum occupancy is exceeded and it's a safety issue?

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Quoted:

Did high_order1 pay you to use your house for a quinceanera but you decided after all the guests arrived that you'd make more money if your wife hosted a candle sales party?

what if the guest start breaking stuff?
what if he observes illegal activity?
what if he is in violation of the terms of agreement, like the party has to end by 10:00 pm?

what if the maximum occupancy is exceeded and it's a safety issue?

Be real interesting if the party is add capacity and you decide to add four of your employees to take it over capacity.

Posted: 4/24/2017 5:37:06 PM EDT

[#7]

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There's not a damn thing Ops can do about it. For example, every single placard on or in an aircraft is supposed to be clearly legible. If they are chipped, scuffed, torn, or otherwise damaged then we are supposed to write it up. Sometimes the MEL will provide relief with a deferral. Many times it won't. In other words, once it's written up, the aircraft isn't going anywhere until it's fixed. Imagine how many placards are on or in your average passenger jet. Imagine how many of them are damaged. Imagine how many out-stations carry a full compliment of placards for every aircraft that operates to it (zero). It's very easy for a pilot to ground an aircraft. After all, there's no such thing as an airworthy aircraft. The only reason you can look up right now and see an airliner in the sky is because the pilots turned a blind eye to such minor issues. But if we don't get our way then we suddenly start "seeing" problems. And they cannot be ignored or brushed under the carpet because the law is on our side.

In the last month, four times as many flights as usual have been cancelled for maintenance issues resulting from last-minute plane inspections ordered by pilots.

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To summarize...you are willing to lie to get your way even when you know you are wrong.

To clarify, I'm not an airline pilot.

And no, it is not lying. I can't think of a single flight in my thousands of hours, where there was not some piece of equipment or system written up as broken or inoperative. Most of the time, we fly that plane anyway because it shouldn't be a big deal. But it could be. And I could say no, I'm not flying that plane until it is fixed. 6 hour ETC and no spare? Guess we'll wait. Or, I want more gas on this plane than the mission planners said I need because, reasons. And any of these can be justified as safety issues, or PIC discretion. I'm simply going back to the original point that the airline can boot you if they want to boot you, and if you make it difficult, there are plenty of legal justifications and tools at the airlines disposal.

Ops would just let a flight be canceled over a defereable (and properly defered) write up?

It's a bold career move to refuse to fly a jet because the tens digit on the #2 EGT has a segment burnt out.

There's not a damn thing Ops can do about it. For example, every single placard on or in an aircraft is supposed to be clearly legible. If they are chipped, scuffed, torn, or otherwise damaged then we are supposed to write it up. Sometimes the MEL will provide relief with a deferral. Many times it won't. In other words, once it's written up, the aircraft isn't going anywhere until it's fixed. Imagine how many placards are on or in your average passenger jet. Imagine how many of them are damaged. Imagine how many out-stations carry a full compliment of placards for every aircraft that operates to it (zero). It's very easy for a pilot to ground an aircraft. After all, there's no such thing as an airworthy aircraft. The only reason you can look up right now and see an airliner in the sky is because the pilots turned a blind eye to such minor issues. But if we don't get our way then we suddenly start "seeing" problems. And they cannot be ignored or brushed under the carpet because the law is on our side.

In the last month, four times as many flights as usual have been cancelled for maintenance issues resulting from last-minute plane inspections ordered by pilots.

Fuck it. Make it 100%. Never fly again. You've already shown that you're willing to make up bullshit about needing to deplane a jet to check tire pressure so may as well keep up the poor decision making.

A chip will make a placard not clearly legible.

Posted: 4/24/2017 5:41:01 PM EDT

[#8]

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So if you buy a car, the dealership can come and take it back from your driveway because one of their employees wants it?

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If you have done nothing that violates their rules and if there are no other outside factors then they have no "power" to force you off the plane.

They have entered into a contract and must honor the terms of the contract (e.g. Contract of Carriage).

You can't move a renter out of your house while they are at work.
You can't take merchandise back from a customer after a sale has been completed.

As a general rule. You're wrong. We don't enforce contracts via force, we do so with damages. The other side breaches, and it's over. Go to court and try to prove breach and damages.

Contracts are breached every single day. You aren't permitted to try to use force to make someone else carry through their obligations. Specific performance is almost unheard of in contract remedies.

Renters are different because of landlord tenant law, which is well defined but confined to tenants.

So if you buy a car, the dealership can come and take it back from your driveway because one of their employees wants it?

Sure. And you sue for damages and win.

Meaning you cannot force them to perform on the contract, you can pursue damages as a remedy.

Specific performance is when a court forces a party to perform what they agreed to Do, but it is very rare.

Posted: 4/24/2017 5:46:33 PM EDT

[#9]

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Quoted:
If you have done nothing that violates their rules and if there are no other outside factors then they have no "power" to force you off the plane.

They have entered into a contract and must honor the terms of the contract (e.g. Contract of Carriage).

You can't move a renter out of your house while they are at work.
You can't take merchandise back from a customer after a sale has been completed.

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At the aircraft, guess who decides if you have violated the contract. The airline does.

If you have done something that appeared genuinely suspicious, after the Captain consults with Corporate Security, you are getting off the aircraft. You will likely not be told why, or you will be given an excuse.

You may think you have done nothing wrong, maybe it was a naive thing you did and you didn't realize you did it, but you are getting off or the jet isn't going anywhere. And you can talk about it with the cops and corporate security coordinator while the aircraft leaves. If you refuse or become combative, you will be met with force to be removed.

I am not justifying what United did for a bumped passenger. Not at all, although I can see why it got to that point. They should have had a policy to offer more money.

But you may think you are abiding by that contract, and the airline may disagree and be able to articulate why, even though they may not tell you right away.

The airline wants to make money and make people happy so they come back. The employees want ( or should want ) the same thing. United incident not withstanding, the vast majority of the time, there are valid and carefully considered reasons that you nay not be aware of, and every once in a while idiots collide like at United.

Read that contract and understand what it says, as it applies to the real world.

Your analogies are not analogous.

Posted: 4/24/2017 5:48:09 PM EDT

[#10]

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you request a pushback, PIC is when that tow bar flexes, he is dispatched

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That makes sense. Is there a law or FAA reg to that effect?

Posted: 4/24/2017 5:48:53 PM EDT

[#11]

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you request a pushback, PIC is when that tow bar flexes, he is dispatched

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Also, when does it stop? When the air stair or jet-way is connected?

Posted: 4/24/2017 5:49:20 PM EDT

[#12]

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You have to follow the instructions of a uniformed crew member within boundaries. An example I've seen in the media is that one would not be expected to obey a flight attendant if she orders you to fight another passenger for her entertainment.

The aircrew is not god. Their powers have limits.

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Name just one of your fantasy scenarios that has ever happened.

Seriously, get a grip

Posted: 4/24/2017 5:49:50 PM EDT

[#13]

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Sure. And you sue for damages and win.

Meaning you cannot force them to perform on the contract, you can pursue damages as a remedy.

Specific performance is when a court forces a party to perform what they agreed to Do, but it is very rare.

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Quoted:
If you have done nothing that violates their rules and if there are no other outside factors then they have no "power" to force you off the plane.

They have entered into a contract and must honor the terms of the contract (e.g. Contract of Carriage).

You can't move a renter out of your house while they are at work.
You can't take merchandise back from a customer after a sale has been completed.

As a general rule. You're wrong. We don't enforce contracts via force, we do so with damages. The other side breaches, and it's over. Go to court and try to prove breach and damages.

Contracts are breached every single day. You aren't permitted to try to use force to make someone else carry through their obligations. Specific performance is almost unheard of in contract remedies.

Renters are different because of landlord tenant law, which is well defined but confined to tenants.

So if you buy a car, the dealership can come and take it back from your driveway because one of their employees wants it?

Sure. And you sue for damages and win.

Meaning you cannot force them to perform on the contract, you can pursue damages as a remedy.

Specific performance is when a court forces a party to perform what they agreed to Do, but it is very rare.

To most people, what I described is called "theft" or "grand theft auto".

Posted: 4/24/2017 5:50:41 PM EDT

[#14]

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At the aircraft, guess who decides if you have violated the contract. The airline does.

If you have done something that appeared genuinely suspicious, after the Captain consults with Corporate Security, you are getting off the aircraft. You will likely not be told why, or you will be given an excuse.

You may think you have done nothing wrong, maybe it was a naive thing you did and you didn't realize you did it, but you are getting off or the jet isn't going anywhere. And you can talk about it with the cops and corporate security coordinator while the aircraft leaves. If you refuse or become combative, you will be met with force to be removed.

I am not justifying what United did for a bumped passenger. Not at all, although I can see why it got to that point. They should have had a policy to offer more money.

But you may think you are abiding by that contract, and the airline may disagree and be able to articulate why, even though they may not tell you right away.

The airline wants to make money and make people happy so they come back. The employees want ( or should want ) the same thing. United incident not withstanding, the vast majority of the time, there are valid and carefully considered reasons that you nay not be aware of, and every once in a while idiots collide like at United.

Read that contract and understand what it says, as it applies to the real world.

Your analogies are not analogous.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
If you have done nothing that violates their rules and if there are no other outside factors then they have no "power" to force you off the plane.

They have entered into a contract and must honor the terms of the contract (e.g. Contract of Carriage).

You can't move a renter out of your house while they are at work.
You can't take merchandise back from a customer after a sale has been completed.

At the aircraft, guess who decides if you have violated the contract. The airline does.

If you have done something that appeared genuinely suspicious, after the Captain consults with Corporate Security, you are getting off the aircraft. You will likely not be told why, or you will be given an excuse.

You may think you have done nothing wrong, maybe it was a naive thing you did and you didn't realize you did it, but you are getting off or the jet isn't going anywhere. And you can talk about it with the cops and corporate security coordinator while the aircraft leaves. If you refuse or become combative, you will be met with force to be removed.

I am not justifying what United did for a bumped passenger. Not at all, although I can see why it got to that point. They should have had a policy to offer more money.

But you may think you are abiding by that contract, and the airline may disagree and be able to articulate why, even though they may not tell you right away.

The airline wants to make money and make people happy so they come back. The employees want ( or should want ) the same thing. United incident not withstanding, the vast majority of the time, there are valid and carefully considered reasons that you nay not be aware of, and every once in a while idiots collide like at United.

Read that contract and understand what it says, as it applies to the real world.

Your analogies are not analogous.

If I think the airline violated the contract do I get whatever remedies I think I'm entitled to and they have to sue if they disagree?

Posted: 4/24/2017 5:51:51 PM EDT

[#15]

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Name just one of your fantasy scenarios that has ever happened.

Seriously, get a grip

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You have to follow the instructions of a uniformed crew member within boundaries. An example I've seen in the media is that one would not be expected to obey a flight attendant if she orders you to fight another passenger for her entertainment.

The aircrew is not god. Their powers have limits.

Name just one of your fantasy scenarios that has ever happened.

Seriously, get a grip

Happy to. The situation where United called rent-a-cops to forcefully remove somebody from a flight after he was boarded because United decided that they wanted his seat back.

Posted: 4/24/2017 6:01:42 PM EDT

[#16]

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To most people, what I described is called "theft" or "grand theft auto".

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If you have done nothing that violates their rules and if there are no other outside factors then they have no "power" to force you off the plane.

They have entered into a contract and must honor the terms of the contract (e.g. Contract of Carriage).

You can't move a renter out of your house while they are at work.
You can't take merchandise back from a customer after a sale has been completed.

As a general rule. You're wrong. We don't enforce contracts via force, we do so with damages. The other side breaches, and it's over. Go to court and try to prove breach and damages.

Contracts are breached every single day. You aren't permitted to try to use force to make someone else carry through their obligations. Specific performance is almost unheard of in contract remedies.

Renters are different because of landlord tenant law, which is well defined but confined to tenants.

So if you buy a car, the dealership can come and take it back from your driveway because one of their employees wants it?

Sure. And you sue for damages and win.

Meaning you cannot force them to perform on the contract, you can pursue damages as a remedy.

Specific performance is when a court forces a party to perform what they agreed to Do, but it is very rare.

To most people, what I described is called "theft" or "grand theft auto".

It's a crappy example. Not my example, a crappy example. And it doesn't disprove my point.

If you sign a contract to buy a car, and at the end of it, after it's all signed and you made out a check to pay for it, the manager tears up the contract and says, we can't make money off this, no deal, you DONT get to pry the keys out of his hand and leave in the vehicle because "contract". It doesn't work that way.

Making up examples that you think are grand theft doesn't change how the law works.

You show up at a hotel with a pre paid reservation, and they say we are full, sorry, the law doesn't let you kick in a door and move in, it let's you sue for damages.

The point is solid.

Posted: 4/24/2017 6:08:59 PM EDT

[#17]

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you request a pushback, PIC is when that tow bar flexes, he is dispatched

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Actually dispatched is applying takeoff power. If you are taxing and the wx changes and you need an alternate, you can not take off until you have one because you are not dispatched yet. If something breaks and you are taxining and it requires dispatch approval, you get the dispatchers approval because you are not dispatched yet. If you come back to the gate to get something fixed, and then are ready to push off again, you do not need a new dispatch release because you have not been dispatched yet.

The Captain is in Command when the door closes.

Although at the gate he also has the final say, in everything. he and the dispatcher share an equal authority for the safety of the flight, but the Captains decision is final. Doesn't matter if nobody is even on the aircraft yet. The Captain can prevent boarding, delay boarding, deplane everybody, by everybody pizza and have it delivered, or authorize free drinks, require more gas, open the door back up and kick someone off the aircraft.

He is expected to know the company policy manual and the FARs and execute his authority IAW SOP and common sense if SOP doesn't cover the particular situation and be able to articulate the situation and the reasons for his actions. He has a well paid job and he doesn't want to fuck it up. He may make mistakes now and then and has to file reports for a laundry list of shit, including kicking someone off the jet. ( that might vary by company )

Contrary to some basement dwellers here, Captains don't do stupid shit, and if they do they don't do it for very long. The Captain is held accountable for every action. At the same time, the company depends on him and gives him the authority to operate the aircraft safetly, take care of the passengers and the operation, and the crew. They pay him descent hourly wage to do this. It isn't as much as it used to be, but it still is not a bad gig if you can get it.

Posted: 4/24/2017 6:13:48 PM EDT

[#18]

None. Free market. BOR does not apply.

Posted: 4/24/2017 6:16:12 PM EDT

[#19]

Never mind about safety or comfort of the others.

I'm special and I demand to be treated as SPECIAL. Rules are always for other people.

Hell, rules are racist. (BTW..."Racist" means anything now a days)

Aloha, Mark

Posted: 4/24/2017 6:20:41 PM EDT

[#20]

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It's a crappy example. Not my example, a crappy example. And it doesn't disprove my point.

If you sign a contract to buy a car, and at the end of it, after it's all signed and you made out a check to pay for it, the manager tears up the contract and says, we can't make money off this, no deal, you DONT get to pry the keys out of his hand and leave in the vehicle because "contract". It doesn't work that way.

Making up examples that you think are grand theft doesn't change how the law works.

You show up at a hotel with a pre paid reservation, and they say we are full, sorry, the law doesn't let you kick in a door and move in, it let's you sue for damages.

The point is solid.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
If you have done nothing that violates their rules and if there are no other outside factors then they have no "power" to force you off the plane.

They have entered into a contract and must honor the terms of the contract (e.g. Contract of Carriage).

You can't move a renter out of your house while they are at work.
You can't take merchandise back from a customer after a sale has been completed.

As a general rule. You're wrong. We don't enforce contracts via force, we do so with damages. The other side breaches, and it's over. Go to court and try to prove breach and damages.

Contracts are breached every single day. You aren't permitted to try to use force to make someone else carry through their obligations. Specific performance is almost unheard of in contract remedies.

Renters are different because of landlord tenant law, which is well defined but confined to tenants.

So if you buy a car, the dealership can come and take it back from your driveway because one of their employees wants it?

Sure. And you sue for damages and win.

Meaning you cannot force them to perform on the contract, you can pursue damages as a remedy.

Specific performance is when a court forces a party to perform what they agreed to Do, but it is very rare.

To most people, what I described is called "theft" or "grand theft auto".

It's a crappy example. Not my example, a crappy example. And it doesn't disprove my point.

If you sign a contract to buy a car, and at the end of it, after it's all signed and you made out a check to pay for it, the manager tears up the contract and says, we can't make money off this, no deal, you DONT get to pry the keys out of his hand and leave in the vehicle because "contract". It doesn't work that way.

Making up examples that you think are grand theft doesn't change how the law works.

You show up at a hotel with a pre paid reservation, and they say we are full, sorry, the law doesn't let you kick in a door and move in, it let's you sue for damages.

The point is solid.

Let's take it a little different.

You go to a dealership and find a car. You find one you like. You sign the contract to lease it. You take it home.
Can the dealership come and pickup the car because they decided that they wanted one of their employees to have it?

The passenger in the United case went to the airline's sales location, found a product, agreed to the contract, and took possession of the item.

Posted: 4/24/2017 6:24:34 PM EDT

[#21]

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The passenger in the United case went to the airline's sales location, found a product, agreed to the contract, and took possession of the item.

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So the passenger can remove the seat and take it home with them? That's the difference between real property and a contracted service (carriage to a destination).

Posted: 4/24/2017 6:27:28 PM EDT

[#22]

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Happy to. The situation where United called rent-a-cops to forcefully remove somebody from a flight after he was boarded because United decided that they wanted his seat back.

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Quoted:
You have to follow the instructions of a uniformed crew member within boundaries. An example I've seen in the media is that one would not be expected to obey a flight attendant if she orders you to fight another passenger for her entertainment.

The aircrew is not god. Their powers have limits.

Name just one of your fantasy scenarios that has ever happened.

Seriously, get a grip

Happy to. The situation where United called rent-a-cops to forcefully remove somebody from a flight after he was boarded because United decided that they wanted his seat back.

If you are told to get off the aircraft and you refuse, you will be taken off by force. It doesn't matter what the reason is or how right you think you are.

United should have had a policy to up the money until they had enough volunteers. Involuntarily denying boarding ( and yes that is exactly what it is even though he was already on the aircraft ) for an oversold situation ( yes that is what it was even though it was over sold because they needed seats to transport crew, they still had more paying passengers than the available seats ) ( no matter how hard you don't want any of that to be true it is and it will be true 10 years from now even though your common definition of english words says otherwise.

You seem to like the EU way of doing things, here is the EU definition of 'denied boarding', you can google it if you don't believe me.

denied boarding" means a refusal to carry passengers on a flight" it has nothing to do with sitting down on an aircraft.

EU Passenger Complaint Form

But when you get to the point they tell you to get off and you refuse, you will be taken off by force or the aircraft isn't going to leave the gate.

Posted: 4/24/2017 6:27:53 PM EDT

[#23]

I look at this way. When I am fling somewhere, my ass aint boarded until its getting off at the destination.

Posted: 4/24/2017 6:28:56 PM EDT

[#24]

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Quoted:
Let's take it a little different.

You go to a dealership and find a car. You find one you like. You sign the contract to lease it. You take it home.
Can the dealership come and pickup the car because they decided that they wanted one of their employees to have it?

The passenger in the United case went to the airline's sales location, found a product, agreed to the contract, and took possession of the item.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
If you have done nothing that violates their rules and if there are no other outside factors then they have no "power" to force you off the plane.

They have entered into a contract and must honor the terms of the contract (e.g. Contract of Carriage).

You can't move a renter out of your house while they are at work.
You can't take merchandise back from a customer after a sale has been completed.

As a general rule. You're wrong. We don't enforce contracts via force, we do so with damages. The other side breaches, and it's over. Go to court and try to prove breach and damages.

Contracts are breached every single day. You aren't permitted to try to use force to make someone else carry through their obligations. Specific performance is almost unheard of in contract remedies.

Renters are different because of landlord tenant law, which is well defined but confined to tenants.

So if you buy a car, the dealership can come and take it back from your driveway because one of their employees wants it?

Sure. And you sue for damages and win.

Meaning you cannot force them to perform on the contract, you can pursue damages as a remedy.

Specific performance is when a court forces a party to perform what they agreed to Do, but it is very rare.

To most people, what I described is called "theft" or "grand theft auto".

It's a crappy example. Not my example, a crappy example. And it doesn't disprove my point.

If you sign a contract to buy a car, and at the end of it, after it's all signed and you made out a check to pay for it, the manager tears up the contract and says, we can't make money off this, no deal, you DONT get to pry the keys out of his hand and leave in the vehicle because "contract". It doesn't work that way.

Making up examples that you think are grand theft doesn't change how the law works.

You show up at a hotel with a pre paid reservation, and they say we are full, sorry, the law doesn't let you kick in a door and move in, it let's you sue for damages.

The point is solid.

Let's take it a little different.

You go to a dealership and find a car. You find one you like. You sign the contract to lease it. You take it home.
Can the dealership come and pickup the car because they decided that they wanted one of their employees to have it?

The passenger in the United case went to the airline's sales location, found a product, agreed to the contract, and took possession of the item.

It was a crappy example the first time, and it's a crappy example this time, too. You didn't take the airline seat home, it's their plane and their seat. It's their seat before you sit in it, and after you get up. You're mixing a tangible good and a service.

Sitting in a seat isn't "possession of the item." You're buying travel, not a specific seat. Travel is the item you're paying for.

A parallel would be you lease a parking spot and paid for it, and they change their mind and don't let you park there any more.

You sue for damages, you don't get to cut the chain and park there, and prohibit them from having you towed, because "contract".

Contracts are breached EVERY DAY. You're allowed to breach a contract, the penalty is damages. It's not some sacred thing where you get to use force to make someone honor a contract. It's breached, so it's over. Sue for damages.

Posted: 4/24/2017 6:34:14 PM EDT

[#25]

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So the passenger can remove the seat and take it home with them? That's the difference between real property and a contracted service (carriage to a destination).

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Quoted:
The passenger in the United case went to the airline's sales location, found a product, agreed to the contract, and took possession of the item.

So the passenger can remove the seat and take it home with them? That's the difference between real property and a contracted service (carriage to a destination).

He was utilizing the item in the manner that they mutually agreed to.

Posted: 4/24/2017 6:37:42 PM EDT

[#26]

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He was utilizing the item in the manner that they mutually agreed to.

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Quoted:
The passenger in the United case went to the airline's sales location, found a product, agreed to the contract, and took possession of the item.

So the passenger can remove the seat and take it home with them? That's the difference between real property and a contracted service (carriage to a destination).

He was utilizing the item in the manner that they mutually agreed to.

No, he paid to get somewhere. Nobody pays to sit on planes that don't travel.

You're starting to see why your example is poor, he didn't buy a good, he paid for a service.

To carry it to an extreme, would you still object if the security people simply picked up his seat, 12a or whatever it was, and carried him off, leaving him buckled in, and put the seat in the passenger waiting area?

If the seat is his, would he object when the plane left without him?

The seat is a red herring, and is not the be all of this issue.

Posted: 4/24/2017 6:40:27 PM EDT

[#27]

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Involuntarily denying boarding ( and yes that is exactly what it is even though he was already on the aircraft )

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Involuntarily denying boarding ( and yes that is exactly what it is even though he was already on the aircraft )

Then why does the United CoC have a section for the reasons they can deny boarding and a separate section for reasons they can remove you from the aircraft?

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for an oversold situation ( yes that is what it was even though it was over sold because they needed seats to transport crew, they still had more paying passengers than the available seats )

Not according to the people that own the aircraft in question.

After initially saying the situation resulted from an overbooked flight, United is making a “clarification" to say that Flight 3411 was sold out -- but not overbooked.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/todayinthesky/2017/04/11/united-clarifies-flight-3411-not-oversold/100331782/

Quoted:
You seem to like the EU way of doing things, here is the EU definition of 'denied boarding', you can google it if you don't believe me.

denied boarding" means a refusal to carry passengers on a flight" it has nothing to do with sitting down on an aircraft.

EU Passenger Complaint Form

What gives you the impression that I like the EU way of doing things? I like doing things where both parties to a contract have the same ability to understand the contract. If the airlines are going to try to use undefined words then it isn't a mutual contract.

Quoted:
But when you get to the point they tell you to get off and you refuse, you will be taken off by force or the aircraft isn't going to leave the gate.

Only because the airline employees have shown that they are willing to lie to get their way and the police agencies are willing to do whatever they are told.

Posted: 4/24/2017 6:41:51 PM EDT

[#28]

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Quoted:
It was a crappy example the first time, and it's a crappy example this time, too. You didn't take the airline seat home, it's their plane and their seat. It's their seat before you sit in it, and after you get up. You're mixing a tangible good and a service.

Sitting in a seat isn't "possession of the item." You're buying travel, not a specific seat. Travel is the item you're paying for.

A parallel would be you lease a parking spot and paid for it, and they change their mind and don't let you park there any more.

You sue for damages, you don't get to cut the chain and park there, and prohibit them from having you towed, because "contract".

Contracts are breached EVERY DAY. You're allowed to breach a contract, the penalty is damages. It's not some sacred thing where you get to use force to make someone honor a contract. It's breached, so it's over. Sue for damages.