Krmrd,
  I have some very close friends in the Navy. One is a Lt. teaching at the nuclear power school in Norfolk(I think) and my brother-in-law is a Gunners Mate in the Special Boat Units. Both of them would be more than willing to do whatever is necessary in the line of duty. Thank god you did not say this in their presence. QUIT YER GODDAMN CRYIN' AND DO YER GODDAMN DUTY!!!! Many of us did not join the military because we didn't want to serve under Clinton. Now, if the time comes that I can be of more service to my country in the military than as a wage earning father and husband, I will go. Money is irrelevant, you signed on to perform a DUTY. Your sacred honor is at stake.  

Kramrd,
You are a pussy what did you thank that you were joining the Girl scouts!!!

You mean I might have to do the job I signed up for?
WIMP!!!

G-

This overall lack of commitment one of the major problems that we have to overcome. The people who sign up to do this kind of work should fully realize that it is not about furthering a national agenda. They're not even there to save their own life. It comes down to enough individuals on scene, intent on doing everything morally and ethically possible to ensure that everybody around them comes home alive.

If we go in, worried only about the preservation of one life, our own, we will reach a point at which we can also rationalize away using the bodies of small children as defensive cover.

Semper Fidelis

Dave  

They should give them CO status...then resssign them to the mess hall and latrine.

Thats alright,just give us our money back.You are ripping off all of us TAX PAYERS.You was PAID to protect this Country from all adversaries both Foreign and Domestic,now you want out of the contract.Fine,just give all of our money back and you are welcome to leave the Country,don't let the door hit you on the way out!

His $30,000 Bonus was to serve x years in a specific MOS. If he gets out of that now becuase he is a coward, he would have to pay back the bonus. If he refuses in time of war to do his duty. He will pay alot more, if you get my drift.

Kamrad, either do your duty or get the hell out. If you wimp out now, you might be able to get out. I am not sure what conditions apply. But, either way you did not fulfill the terms of your bonus and therefore will have to pay it back.

Name should be COMRAD not kramrd.

What a dumb-ass.  Give them the $30,000 back and leave the country you pussy.

That moron made one post and never returned to the thread. You guys are beating on a troll that is taking no damage. I trust the UCMJ enough not to stress about his remarks : he will obviously "be brought to justice" when he turns yellow.




!! Don't Feed the Trolls !!

Please refuse to report if ordered overseas!  Your fellow inmates will need dental care too.

Being active duty and deployed for operation Enduring Freedom currently, I couldn't agree with you more, but I am sure as most prior-service persons would say, there have always been these "leaches" in the millitary.  This is something that has been a problem since the earliest days of armed conflict.  Maybe they joined for a roof over their head, out of desperation, source of income, or whatever other bs reason, the fact is these waste of skin mf's did not count on having to actually serve their country.  They have been a drain on not only the millitary, but also the taxpayers.  For everyone of these worthless pieces of shit that weasle out of their oath, "no one made them raise their damn hand and lie"  we, the troops that actually believe in what we are doing and have every intent to serve our country in any aspect have to pick up their slack.  They were, they are, and they will continue to be drains on our millitary.  Thank God that we have enough great people in our respective services to again "suck it up" and still be the smartest, best trained, most effective and proudest millitary in the world!
"sorry to be on a soapbox, but these sob's really get me mad"

                        [50]

I figured I'd get flamed pretty bad by you guys... I totally understand where you're coming from.

But you dont understand my side completely...  Like I said, IF and WHEN we get called up I'm ready to go.  I even accept the fact that I could die in a time of war should the transport plane I'm on get shot down or should some bio/chem weapon hit our encampment, or other.  Fine.

When I signed on, I was informed of this possiblity by my recruiter.  I WAS NOT TOLD ABOUT BEING ASSIGNED TO A FORWARD TEAM!  You know the oldest joke in military?  It starts off "But, my recruiter said...", well let me tell you they mis-inform officers too.

Had I known before signing exactly how Dental augments Medical in a time of War I most likely wouldnt have signed on.  As for being hipocrital about my last statement regarding those who try to get out of the reserves when a crisis hits... I'm not one of those people, I'm not trying to get out.  Just before Desert Storm, my unit lost about 75% of the Docs (med and dent) who got out because they didnt want to go.

It was my understanding when I signed on that as a Dentist and a Reservist that I would be "In the rear with the gear" fixing teeth or would remain stateside to backfill the dental slots for those that did go overseas.

I do not believe this makes me a coward.  My second year is up in December.  And I'm seriously considering resigning my position... NOT because I'm one of those "I dont want to go" people, but because I dont believe that I can fullfill my required duty.  A duty which I was not completely informed of when I signed on.

I'm a dentist, other than CPR I have no medical triage trainging.  You guys are totally right... if an individual is not willing to defend, fight and die for their country they shouldnt have signed on to the military in the first place.  

Let me ask you this.  Suppose, I wasnt in the Army Reserve?  Suppose I voiced an opinion that I wasnt willing to join the reserves because its a job I didnt want to do... I dont think you guys would have called me a coward.  I'm sure there are several of you reading this who have no desire to join the reserves or military. The only reason you're calling me a coward is because you perceive me to have joined the reserves for the money and now perceive me unwilling to perform my duty.  That is only partially true, I again state that I was not COMPLETELY informed of what my duty would entail.

Flame on,

M.

Please.
When you swore that oath, and agreed to follow the orders of your superiors, AND then received training with firearms....

I don't think you're a coward.
I think you're just not that bright, that's all.

Bastards! I agree with the line of reasoning that they should get a dishonorable and pay back all benefits, and that the discharge status review board should refuse to upgrade discharge classification from dishonorable.

My recruiter says that about 95% of their business is from prior service guys, aged 30+. Most of us have RE code 3 that has to be waived by USAREC (thanx to Comrade Clinton), mine has taken since April so far.

These pogues need some serious "Wall-to-wall counceling" for sure. Blanket party away.

Remember, 11B (11H and 11M have been reclassed)is the most promotable MOS in the Army now! INFANTRY!!!

[b][size=1]Don Out[/size=1][/b]
[b][size=4][red]AIRBORNE!
2/505 PIR
H-MINUS[/red][/size=4][/b]

I served 3 years active duty in the Navy, 2 of those were on a Marine Corps base.  Also have almost 2 years of reserve duty.

Throughout all of this time, I have received NO military firearm training whatsoever.  NONE.

As for swearing an oath to defend the country... there are many ways to serve and defend this country.  Providing dental care to soldiers is one of them.

M.

The question is this:

Are you morally opposed (CO) to going to war, OR are you just plain scared?

This debating team bullshit is nonsense.
If you are needed to help some wounded soldier or marine, what difference does it make whether it is in the rear, or on the front.
If you really want to serve, then some poor soul who's been shot in the mouth is who you might be asked to serve.

You sound scared.
You do everything you can to get out of that uniform, ASAP.  You might soil it.
Shame on you.

This thread is in a downward death spiral!

All I have to say is.. This is the best thread I have ever started, other than the LA police chase one.. [;)]

Anything else I have to say would just be redundant now.

Sergeant Dave,

Quality Assurance? I'm glad that the Marines have adopted a 6 Sigma approach to killing the enemy.  Not only content to making a Kill, it's gotta be a "Quality Kill".

Not raggin' on ya! I just think that this could make a great boot camp training skit.

kramrd,

You are a typical REMF! If you don't know what this means, then you should ask someone. The worst that you would ever possibly see is a Forward Support Battalion. You are not going to be in a forward Battalion Aid Station, or even remotely close to the front lines, and certainly not behind enemy lines. Give me a break.

I served as a medic, in a combat arms unit. I also went to school and became a nurse, then went to a hospital. You know what? I hated the hospital. I never realised how much I loved being in the action until it was too late and I was pounding the floors in an ICU and not pounding the ground in Somalia, Haiti or Iraq.

You say you have never had any weapons training. Have you ever thought about asking for some? if someone doesn't tell me something that I want to know, I will ask.

You have to be willing to ask for the training you need. I'm sure that you ask for all kinds of dental training.

Although a "non-combatant", I was extremely willing to use deadly force to protect myself or my patients, as you should be, or are you not dedicated enough to risk losing you life to save another which you are charged with caring for?

Fatman,

It's gotta be a "Quality Kill". You wouldn't want the bad guys to slowly bleed out or suffer in agony after being gutshot, would ya'? Okay, that was a bad example!

Actually, I work in a Marine C-130 squadron. Trained as an avionics guy, I'm part of the quality control section for the aircraft maintenance department.

No hurt feelings here,
Semper Fi,

Dave

Okay,

You were very naive. Haven't you ever seen an episode of MASH? I don't need you to carry a rifle to fulfill your mission, but I need you where the wounded are.

The rifle or pistol issued to you is your last resort. Want to determine your fate? Using your sidearm is more likely to stop an would-be attacker in the perimeter; certainly better than anyone can stop a incoming air to air missle on your transport plane, or repel a SCUD attack on the base.

Being concerned about how and where you might meet your maker doesn't make you a Conscientious Objector. A true CO would be  concerned about not contributing to the loss of life on either side of the battle. Furthermore, a true CO, realizing that nothing they could do would prevent the battle outright, would be most interested in preserving as many lives as possible.

Semper Fi

Dave
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"..rendering aid to the fallen, so the chaplain doesn't have to."

There is no room for half-measures or quibbling when you are wearing the uniform of your country. Men like Platoon Sergeant Mitchell Paige and Sergeant Alvin York are looking down on all of us to see what we do and how we do it when called upon. How will your conduct reflect the honor and courage they displayed in action against the enemy?

In the history of our nation at war, everyone from Navy messmen, (Dorrie Miller at Pearl Harbor) to Coast Guard coxswains, (Douglas Munro at Guadalcanal) to radiomen, (Sergeant Henry "Red" Erwin in a B-29 over Japan) have shown that it's not the billet you're filling, but the man in that billet that can make all the difference in a given situation. If you've already decided that you can't be that man, you need to find out what's involved in refunding that $30K bonus and resigning your commission.

Just one Marine telephone tech's opinion... Of course "Every Marine is a rifleman" was imprinted on me before the Corps ever showed me a screwdriver or soldering iron.

kramrd,



... was drafted into the Army during the First World War. He considered himself to be a conscientious objector; He was later able to reconcile his Quaker (pacifist) upbringing with the concept that killing an aggressor in order to preserve life was within God's Teachings. I don't think he was ever worried about where he was going to be performing his duties.

Whatever your frame of mind was when you signed the contract, You obligated yourself.

Dave
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Think about "..rendering aid to the fallen, so the chaplain doesn't have to."
 

...which is exactly why I used him as an example. Buy that Staff Sergeant of Marines a cigar!

When the terrorists attacks happened, I was called by my reserve unit for a check in of all Marines to be sure we could be contacted if we were to be called up. My heart was pumping with the fact that here it is, this is what I joined up for.
It doesn't look like we will be called up.

Shame, I was hoping to get my nicely ironed and starched cammies all dirtied up with Middle-Eastern sand.

[marines]

Army Officer Appointment Acceptance and Oath of Office
I (insert name), having been appointed a (insert rank) in the U.S. Army under the conditions indicated in this document, do accept such appointment and do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that [b]I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter[/b], so help me God.

That's what happens when you put a draft dodger in charge of the country for 8 years.

Given the depth of knowledge that we are trying to deal with here, I'm not sure that we can take anything for granted!




Thank you! Would you care to join me? I'm having a birthday party on the 10th of next month. Please come and join us for a toast. I promise that the beef will be tasty and fit for human consumption!

Semper Fi

Dave
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"...common sense was an uncommon virtue."  GySgt J.J. Gallagher

Well whattaya know, Staff Sergeant! 10 November is [b]MY[/b] birthday too! In fact, I've got a whole buncha friends who all share that same birthday. Count on the fact that I will be raising a glass with you on that day, if only by long distance.

"I was born on Parris Island,
the land that time forgot.
The sand was eighteen inches deep,
The sun was burning hot."

Semper Fidelis
{Which means [b]Always Faithful[/b], for those who might not be familiar. Always, not just when it's convenient.}

You should get some kind of Vocational Training. Then, you can be usefull other than just shooting the enemy.

But, we must all remember that any Soldier's primary duty is as a fighter. If you are not willing to kill or die, then don't join.

There was a great show a while back called "Tour Of Duty". It took place in Vietnam and they really showed some Cowards and COs learn how to survive. In one episode a CO leaves his Rifle in the Chopper becuase he doesn't want to kill. When the battle ends, the VC pull back and the begin securing the Ville, a VC pops up and takes aim at the Platoon leader, the CO is right there and he ends up struggling with the guy and the gun goes off killing the VC. That is when he realizes it is kill or be killed. After that he fights like everybody else. Had he had his weapon he may not have had to struggle for that gun.

Watch These Shows:

1) MASH
2) Tour Of Duty
3) China Beach

They will explain the whole Medical vs. Infantry issue.

I don't know if I would include MASH in that list.  Alan Alda was quite the pacifist, and the show was very anti-war in general.  At least that was my take on it.

[Part I, because I can only enter 3500 max characters]

This will be my last comment regarding this subject...

I certainly respect the negative opinions made by the members of this board and sincerely bear no malice towards any of you.

I perceive the thing that is pissing most of you off is that you see an Officer and a Doctor before you who perhaps has a good living already and here comes the government offering a huge bonus paying an individual to do a job that he is NOT willing to do.

I also agree with the individual who commented that the majority of the military has become a "vocational school" and needs to get back to training "fighting soldiers".  I always thought of myself as a Dentist who happens to serve in the armed forces... when in reality, what you guys are saying is that I'm a soldier first who's collateral duty happens to be a dentist second.  I see that now, just never thought of it that way and ALL of the commands under which I served NEVER emphasized that.  All I ever wanted to do and did was fix teeth.

When I was active duty in the Navy, I had a lot of fun and I enjoyed serving my country and particularly took a sense of pride in rendering HIGH QUALITY dental healthcare to the sailors and soldiers.  Although you have no way to review and judge my dental skills, all I can tell you is that if the Dental Corps had a TOP GUN, I'd be it... I state this not out of arrogance, please to do not take it as such. I truly am a talented dentist... so much so that when I was practicing in the Navy, I was the Doc that would do quadrant dentistry performing several fillings within that 1 hour appointment.  I was NEVER the guy who would cherry pick the single easy filling for 20 minutes and then go and drink coffee for 40 minutes...I was the one who was most requested by the patients, because I got their work done. I realize that all you have is my word to take for it.

As for serving in my Reserve Unit, We have several Dentists who literally sit around ALL day reading the paper or sleeping while the Enlisted personnel do ALL the training.  I'm one of the few Officers in my unit who actively works with the Enlisted, whether its putting up a tent for training or cleaning out the supply room... and I'd like to think that I've earned their respect.

Right or wrong, naieve or not... when I joined the reserves I was told that IF we got called up, the most the doctors would be deployed for would be for 90 days...  I was told that this 90 day time frame was chosen because the government learned from Desert Storm that many dentists and physicians lost their practices and were financially devastated because they were deployed for so long that their patients went elsewhere.

I've been in the reserves for about 22 months now, Dec 14th will my 2 year commissioning date.  It was about6-8 months ago, I noticed my name up on a board assigned to a "Forward Team"... To the individual who commented about me being in the Rear Echelon Military Forces(REMF), that's partly why I joined, to be "in the rear with the gear" where its relatively safe... just because I didn’t ask or choose to be in an Infantry Unit who goes to the front does NOT make me a Coward!  And I salute and highly respect those that do!

[Part II]

!

So I asked what being on a "Forward Team" meant.  I don’t know if they were pulling my leg or not and still don’t, but I was told that a Doc and 2 assistants take a Hum Vee and literally go to the front to assist a surgical medical unit... WTF?  I'm thinking I'm just a dentist, what do they expect of me? All I know is CPR and how to fix teeth...  How am I supposed to help a thoracic surgeon? I know how to shoot an AR and pistol, but in combat?  How do you engage the enemy?  How do you provide cover fire?  A lot of questions went through my head.

I also recognize I am addressing a lot of individuals on this board who serve or have served on the "regular" or "line" side, predominantly enlisted, of the military and you have no idea or may not understand what its like from an armed forces healthcare point of view and what my personal experiences as a Dental Officer have been. I realize that we ALL serve the SAME military armed forces, but sometimes the presentation is different.


As I stated before, I realize that I could be killed should the enemy attack... heck, I could be sent to the staging area in Pakistan and who knows?  Osama could set off a back pack nuke in the area and were all toast... I accepted the fact that I could die and die for my country.  I realized that when I signed up.

From the healthcare side (dental at least) of the armed forces, its been my personal experience that they want you and lead you to think that all you do is render dental health care to the soldiers.  They purposely withhold, or at least don’t emphasize information about combat and forward teams and such from us because if they would blatantly emphasize these aspects of the military I think they would have less healthcare professionals joining.  Most docs go to college for 8 years or longer and incur student loans in excess of $100,000... that's a pretty substantial investment.  Not that the loss of my life is any greater than somebody else’s... but if I die, my wife still has to pay the $$$ back or file bankruptcy.

So let me ask my fellow members this... suppose I never served in the Navy? Suppose I was not currently serving in Army Reserve?  The topic of this thread is "You mean you have to FIGHT in the Army?"...

[Part III]

What if I made the comment "I agree with you guys, if an individual is not willing to fight, they shouldn’t have joined the military in the first place.  I for one don’t think I could go to combat and fight, but I highly respect and salute those who do!"

Would you have still called me a coward considering I never served in the military and did not wish to?  Coming from a "weapons related web community" with many former military members, I'd expect a little ribbing from you guys jokingly calling me a pussy maybe... but NOT a coward.

Well that's exactly my situation.  True enough that I signed on for the bonus... but when I signed on, in my mind and understanding I would be fixing teeth stateside on deploying soldiers or "in the rear with the gear".  I have no desire to go and fight.  As I said, I've always been treated and considered as a dentist first, it was never instilled in me by my commands that I was a soldier or weapon first... so who's fault is that?  Mine?  No, I think that rests with higher command.

Coward?  I think you guys are envisioning a scenario where there's a bleeding soldier with a gunshot to the face and they need a dentist and here's kramrd cowering in a corner refusing to go to the front...

I know I said I'd refuse orders... I often speak or type what’s on my mind at that moment without thinking... in reality, I believe I would assist and render aid.  I'm just pissed off about this whole "Forward Team" thing that I was never told about... Again, for the last time, just because I don’t want to be in that position does not make me a Coward!  Which has lead me to my decision, that as of Dec. 14th 2001 I will be resigning my commission with the Army Reserve.

I'm truly sorry to have offended those who serve or have served in our armed forces...  I'm really not a BAD guy which is why I've taken the time to try and explain things from my point of view... it just bothers me to think that I may have lost some friendship and a great deal of respect from my friends on this board.

Mark

My Battalion Surgeon was awesome.  Yale for pre-med, U.Penn for Medical School.  He didn't need to be in the Navy.  He knew what he was there for, though.  He was a part of the Bn, just like any LCpl Rifleman.  He was one of Us.  He'd toss on a pack and hump 25 miles with Us.  He deployed with Us.  If needed, he'd go to the "front" and pull bullets out of Us.  If he was a dentist from Brigade, he would do the same.  He was that kind of man.

You're not.
But you know that as well as we do.

Your kidding right??  I mean come on!!  I was never even in the military and know that everyone is a soldier first, last, and always!!!   Pathetic if you ask me.

sgtar15

I knew that I was a pretty messed up kid. To correct that, I figured that I needed to do something pretty drastic. So I joined the Army. No recruiter waved a signing bonus in front of me or told me any lies; I just signed up. [b]Volunarily[/b]. And it helped me put my head back on straight.

I was trained as a Medical Specialist. Even though I spent most of my time in a troop medical center, taking temperatures and medical histories, I knew that at any time, I could be ordered into a combat zone. I didn't like the idea but that was the deal. Our creed was "Conserve the fighting strength." And while, for the most part, that meant, keep our soldiers (and sailors, airmen and Marines) alive and healthy, it also meant, if necessary, killing the enemy to protect same.

One of the things that I learned under the watchful eyes of my Drill Sergeants is the concept of integrity. And I had made a deal with the Army that said my duty was to fit the needs of the Army. I didn't have to like it, but I made a promise to do it. And a man (or woman) with any kind of integrity keeps a promise. In fact, after I left active duty & was in the Individual Ready Reserve, I got a nice letter and questionaire from the Army asking about my readiness. This was during Desert Shield. Honestly, it scared the crap out me but I sent the letter back saying that with a few days notice, I'd be back in uniform. It never came to that. I never had the honor (nor endured the horror) of serving in combat. But I always know that I was ready to do just that.

I signed on the dotted line. I swore the oath. I took the paychecks. I took the training. It never even occurred to me to not do my duty. I think I knew most of the guys I served with well enough to think that they too felt the same way. The military [b]can[/b] be a great job during peace time. But it's not just a regular job, it's a duty to country. It's not unlike being a firefighter. Between calls, it might be fun to hang out at the fire station. Or it might be boring or tedious or routine. It might be a lot of things. But when the alarm goes off, you go and fight the fire. You don't say, "Gee, I didn't know I'd have to do something dangerous."

A lot of the guys I knew in medical were there because it helped them psychologically reconcile the idea that part of there "job" might end up being about killing. But everyone I knew was also recognized that killing is something every soldier has to be prepared to do. I was proud to serve with them.

And I was proud of our Commander in Chief for leading a military like that. Of course, that was back in the days of Ronald Reagan and George Bush.

No, it has everthing to do with you making a commitment to serve: (a) your fellow soldiers, wherever they need you most, and (b) your country. We are not in this line of work for the money!



I might sugggest sticking "sign contractual obligations" in the middle of that sentence!



I respect your decision to leave. Until you can place your patients' needs above your own, this is for the best. Good luck in your future endeavors. You will be missed.

Semper Fidelis

Dave
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"...common sense was an uncommon virtue." GySgt J.J. Gallagher

Goatboy,

I've opened a huge can of worms and have dug myself into a hole that I do not think I can ever dig myself out of in the eyes of the members here on AR15.com.

I have made my last statement regarding this subject trying to explain myself as best as I can.  I can do no more.  I dont think some of the members who have been sending me hate e-mail will ever understand my point of view.

I sincerely bear no malice to those members here who have flammed me and those who serve or have served in our armed forces have my highest respect.  

It is clear however that my presence on AR15.com dishonors them.  I have have thought about this all day yesterday and today, and I ask that you please lock this thread and inactivate my account as I will no longer participate on this board.

Thank you,
M.