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Posted: 5/25/2017 1:16:24 PM EDT
[#1]
I had a brain tumor that destroyed the nerves to my right ear and I had to have my right inner ear removed to get the tumor removed. I have vertigo 24/7 and use my vision to balance. My left ear is still functional and I can maintain my balance during day light. When it is dark, I am totally lost in space. I can use the muscles in my legs for balance, but not for more than 4 or 5 seconds. Just going up and down stairs gives me a big problem. I live with visual disorientation every day...it is a bitch.
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Posted: 5/25/2017 1:22:59 PM EDT
[#2]
It didn't work out too well for JFK Jr.
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Posted: 5/25/2017 1:27:57 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Interesting. I'd love to experience that (in a controlled environment of course). Unusual attitude recovery can range from pretty easy to terrifying. Even if you have the leans pretty badly, as long as you recognize that fact and don't need to maneuver, you can get back into controlled flight. In my experience, it's worse when a pilot fails to recognize the onset of the leans/vertigo. |
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Posted: 5/25/2017 1:30:20 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Interesting. I'd love to experience that (in a controlled environment of course). This is sort of a scary eye opener for me. I've flown with a lot of VFR pilots who I really have zero confidence in if shtf and we went IMC. I guess maybe I'd trust them to do a timed-turn 180 and get out of the mess? Maybe? Amazing that you felt like you were in a descending corkscrew when going straight. Also amazing that most feel like they're going straight when in a descending corkscrew. Absolutely fascinating.....and deadly. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It isn't any different than shooting, OP. Aligning the sights and exercising precise trigger control, proper grip, etc. under stress takes training and practice. Flying in IMC takes training and practice. The attitude that you'll "just make it happen" when SHTF is what gets people killed. I learned to fly in Puerto Rico. My first night flight under instruction was cloudy and moonless. After turning away from the island, I lost my visual horizon (open ocean, no lights) and experienced slight disorientation. It took 100% focus on the panel to simply maintain control of the plane. I leveled the wings and maintained airspeed. My body was telling me we were still turning and accelerating. The control inputs I was making to stay under control felt unnatural. It was a real eye opener and I'm glad I was able to experience it with an instructor. Later in the flight, my instructor would have me close my eyes, change the attitude of the plane, and have me recover with the instruments. It's good training and an important part of learning to fly. I've never had any disorientation since then, but I wouldn't even take a small risk of running into IMC. I also won't fly at night without another experienced pilot. I don't fly very often, so I don't have the sharp skills required to do it alone. This is sort of a scary eye opener for me. I've flown with a lot of VFR pilots who I really have zero confidence in if shtf and we went IMC. I guess maybe I'd trust them to do a timed-turn 180 and get out of the mess? Maybe? Amazing that you felt like you were in a descending corkscrew when going straight. Also amazing that most feel like they're going straight when in a descending corkscrew. Absolutely fascinating.....and deadly. The sensation is so strong that it is compelling. Training makes the job of ignoring the sensation fairly easy while using the instruments for reference. Don't pick up your pen or flashlight. |
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Posted: 5/25/2017 1:30:43 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I had a brain tumor that destroyed the nerves to my right ear and I had to have my right inner ear removed to get the tumor removed. I have vertigo 24/7 and use my vision to balance. My left ear is still functional and I can maintain my balance during day light. When it is dark, I am totally lost in space. I can use the muscles in my legs for balance, but not for more than 4 or 5 seconds. Just going up and down stairs gives me a big problem. I live with visual disorientation every day...it is a bitch. I wonder how many people suffer from similar conditions. It gave me an idea for a medical device, borrowing from airplane instrumentation. A sort of gyro that could give you a sense of balance through tactile sensation. |
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Posted: 5/25/2017 4:40:20 PM EDT
[#6]
IMC is not more dangerous
just take different skills and experience. |
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Posted: 5/25/2017 4:47:44 PM EDT
[#7]
You have to a) have the required instruments and b) know how to use those required instruments. Not all planes have the proper equipment. Not all pilots know how to fly without looking out a window. It's very easy to get vertigo and end up in a stall/mountain/mid air collision when you can't see jack and you don't know quite where you are because you weren't paying attention to heading/speed/altitude/charts/etc.
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Posted: 5/25/2017 5:06:30 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That is horrible. I wonder how many people suffer from similar conditions. It gave me an idea for a medical device, borrowing from airplane instrumentation. A sort of gyro that could give you a sense of balance through tactile sensation. 
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Posted: 5/25/2017 5:51:24 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That was probably smart on your part. I think you're talking about get-there-itis? I just can't fathom being in an aircraft and saying to myself "well, this is scary and I'm not really equipped for this. Let's continue on." I never knew how deadly VFR into IMC was until very recently. You'd think it's common sense to admit defeat and land wherever you need to. Even if you need to declare and take priority over others. It's better than dying. https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Press-on-itis_(OGHFA_BN) |
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Posted: 5/25/2017 10:19:02 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My dad has balance issues. I told him to hang a nut from the bill of his cap with a piece of string.
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Posted: 5/25/2017 10:22:07 PM EDT
[#11]
Watch an old Kungfu rerun......grasshopper
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Posted: 5/25/2017 10:32:17 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It didn't work out too well for JFK Jr. |
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Posted: 5/25/2017 10:39:03 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
To the non pilot like me, it seems like you could use your instruments just long enough to live, right? I mean the artificial horizon isn't that hard to understand. Why is it that flying VFR into IMC leads to so many descending corkscrews? Why is it so disorienting? Just curious. As others have said, you are betting your life on an instrument that is telling you something entirely different than what you are feeling. You've been through your entire life relying on your senses, to take your senses out and look at a round dial is a unique circumstance to be in. WX is not something to fuck with and unfortunately people don't respect it enough. As Mach said, it's not dangerous but it does take experience. There have been more than a few times that I've had to stare into the HUD/round dials, take a mental snapshot and re cage my brain. |
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Posted: 5/26/2017 3:01:26 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good case indeed. You had a good instructor. Thinking that you have a handle on things and that you have done this sort of thing before ( hold heading, maintain climb rate, etc). But, and here's the little thing that's different that makes all the difference in the world. In all those basic maneuvers you had access to the horizon, even if only in your periphery. To me, this exercise represents the fact that even your biological senses are " instruments" in the sense that they provide the brain with an informational aid to situational awareness and orientation. But absent of that very basic VMC, fall back instrumentation of the horizon in relation to inner ear + G forces......well...... things get complicated and fast. To the untrained private pilot finding himself in an IMC, the situation will demand that you concentrate solely on the instruments that remain. Which as others have mentioned, is a discipline. It initially is difficult to divorce yourself from the senses that you've trusted all your life and concentrate specifically on the instruments underneath the glare shield. Hell, try it out OP Like I said, it made an impression on me. |
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Posted: 5/26/2017 3:25:13 AM EDT
[#15]
after a while you learn to not even feel the inner ear lying to you.
I haven't had the leans in 20+ years. |
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Posted: 5/26/2017 4:36:53 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Your body is telling you things, and the tendency is to listen to your body, and not pay attention to your instruments. There is a factoid out there that you last about 90 secs. This is not reality, since the study was done with persons with no real flying experience. Nonetheless, IMC requires a certain amount of discipline - discipline to pay attention to what your instruments are saying, and discipline to scan the instruments and cross check them. Sometimes instruments fail, and if you are not cross-checking, you can following a failing gyro right into the ground. You don't really understand how much you rely on a visual picture of the horizon until it's taken away. I cant remember the name of the study but Ohio State did a study long ago and found it was something like 90 seconds was the average it took a non instrument rated pilot to become disoriented in IMC. |
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Posted: 5/26/2017 4:48:04 AM EDT
[#17]
Speaking of cross check, I was doing some recurrency training with a high time AC135 guy that just got out and was getting ready to start applying for a civilian job.
we were in the simulator and I watched him roll the "plane" because I failed his attitude indicator. He wasn't scanning and never thought to check the AI on the right side of the panel. |
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Posted: 5/26/2017 5:10:46 AM EDT
[#18]
Our sister squadron had two pilots and a crew chief out for FCLP's (Field Carrier Landing Practice) at NAS Miramar back in the late 80's.
Typical SoCal moonless night in June, a scud layer had moved in over the field (1,200 - 2,800 feet). The pilot was doing missed approaches, procedures were to climb to no higher than 800 feet to stay under the clouds, execute the missed approach procedures, go around and contact approach for instructions. If they went into the clouds they were supposed to climb above the clouds, head east and contact tower for further instructions. The crew was busy talking on the radio after a missed approach, the pilot didn't stop at 800 feet and flew into the clouds. For some reason the pilot leveled off, then called the tower. The tower told the pilot to execute the missed approach procedures, the pilot didn't acknowledge, the tower called again. The second pilot called tower and said something about the crew experiencing vertigo and that they were checking instruments. This all took a little bit longer than 30 seconds. The last transmission from the plane was garbled, the pilot said "I don't understand" before the plane crashed. The ground crews working on the line saw the plane drop out of the clouds inverted with the starboard wing hitting the ground first. There were no survivors. 
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Posted: 5/26/2017 7:41:55 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All he had to do is turn on the Autopilot. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It didn't work out too well for JFK Jr. Of course knowing how to use the autopilot is a big plus too, but too many people won't familiarize themselves with their equipment. |
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Posted: 5/26/2017 8:10:34 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryThanks for posting. Watching that video being a non pilot explained a lot of the discussion. It was neat to watch the guys in the chair test. |
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Posted: 5/26/2017 8:30:26 AM EDT
[#21]
I did a Cirrus SR-22 recurrent after about 15 years a while back. I giggled when I saw that the autopilot now has a 'straight and level' function. Then I realized who would buy an $800,000 four seat disposable airplane with a parachute and a save me from myself button on the AP.
That said I was monitoring guard climbing out of MCO one night a couple years back and listened to a woman kill herself in fog on the surf at Daytona. The controllers did all they could and I'll never forget the panic and fear in the pilot's voice as she lost it. Just a few seconds later myself and half a dozen other pilots reported the ELT. By the time I got home I looked up the news and saw that a 152 spun into the beach. A few days later learned that it was a recently minted instrument pilot. When I heard her on the radio I was certain that she was a student. She was terrified and phraseology between her and fantastic controllers went right out the window. Not the first crash I've witnessed on the radio or watched in person but this one still haunts me. |
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Posted: 5/26/2017 9:38:34 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here is my two cents from a low time student pilot on a hiatus. When you fly vfr in cruise flight, you look out the plane like 90% of the time. You look out the plane to see if you are level and not in a turn. When you are into IMC, you don't have a horizon to use anymore to know if you are level. So, before you know it the plane starts to roll....then it just keeps rolling because you have no idea it's rolling because you have no horizon to see if you are level or not. Then it just rolls and goes into a spin and you can't get out of the spin because you don't know which way to apply rudder. Then you crash. All within less than a minute. So....pretty much before you have time to realize that you are fucked in the clouds you are already half way into a spin. This is where I feel full motion simulator work could increase safety. Albeit, there is always someone who thinks they are Bob Hoover but isn't and will try to Scud run or do VFR on top. 
To explain it 2 dimensionally, When you drive your car down the road you use the yellow and white lines to stay on course. Well Imagine you are going down the road and now all of a sudden there is so much fog you can't see the lines at all anymore. What would you do in a car? Well of course you would pull over and stop. Well in an airplane, you can't do that, you need to keep on trucking along because if you get to slow you stall. So imagine that fog setting in where you can't see the lines and then you need to keep driving at 50 mph, you'll end up in a ditch or in a tree in less than a minute. |
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Posted: 5/26/2017 9:58:32 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I had a brain tumor that destroyed the nerves to my right ear and I had to have my right inner ear removed to get the tumor removed. I have vertigo 24/7 and use my vision to balance. My left ear is still functional and I can maintain my balance during day light. When it is dark, I am totally lost in space. I can use the muscles in my legs for balance, but not for more than 4 or 5 seconds. Just going up and down stairs gives me a big problem. I live with visual disorientation every day...it is a bitch. |
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Posted: 5/26/2017 10:05:15 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's one thing my instructor told me: "If you get into clouds, turn on the autopilot and it will keep your wings level. Then set the altitude. Then set it to HDG. Use the HDG knob to perform a 180." Of course knowing how to use the autopilot is a big plus too, but too many people won't familiarize themselves with their equipment. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It didn't work out too well for JFK Jr. Of course knowing how to use the autopilot is a big plus too, but too many people won't familiarize themselves with their equipment. Mike |
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Posted: 5/26/2017 10:05:31 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I do not believe it is legal to fly into IMC without an Inst. rating and even then isn't a flightplan/clearance required if IMC in controlled airspace? |
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Posted: 5/26/2017 10:05:54 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I did a Cirrus SR-22 recurrent after about 15 years a while back. I giggled when I saw that the autopilot now has a 'straight and level' function. Then I realized who would buy an $800,000 four seat disposable airplane with a parachute and a save me from myself button on the AP. That said I was monitoring guard climbing out of MCO one night a couple years back and listened to a woman kill herself in fog on the surf at Daytona. The controllers did all they could and I'll never forget the panic and fear in the pilot's voice as she lost it. Just a few seconds later myself and half a dozen other pilots reported the ELT. By the time I got home I looked up the news and saw that a 152 spun into the beach. A few days later learned that it was a recently minted instrument pilot. When I heard her on the radio I was certain that she was a student. She was terrified and phraseology between her and fantastic controllers went right out the window. Not the first crash I've witnessed on the radio or watched in person but this one still haunts me. I remember your story and I looked up the report. Iirc she wasn't supposed to be flying alone or at night. She had no business behind the controls. All she had to do was level the wings and climb. |
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Posted: 5/26/2017 10:09:16 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I had a brain tumor that destroyed the nerves to my right ear and I had to have my right inner ear removed to get the tumor removed. I have vertigo 24/7 and use my vision to balance. My left ear is still functional and I can maintain my balance during day light. When it is dark, I am totally lost in space. I can use the muscles in my legs for balance, but not for more than 4 or 5 seconds. Just going up and down stairs gives me a big problem. I live with visual disorientation every day...it is a bitch. |
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Posted: 5/26/2017 10:17:43 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
. I remember your story and I looked up the report. Iirc she wasn't supposed to be flying alone or at night. She had no business behind the controls. All she had to do was level the wings and climb. |
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Posted: 5/26/2017 10:26:02 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What happens if ILS fails altogether and you're in IMC? Curious about how you'd get to the ground. Can ATC vector you in? Not sure how many pieces there would be though, lol |
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Posted: 5/26/2017 10:34:42 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh, you'd certainly get to the ground! Not sure how many pieces there would be though, lol Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
What happens if ILS fails altogether and you're in IMC? Curious about how you'd get to the ground. Can ATC vector you in? Not sure how many pieces there would be though, lol Also as others have mentioned Radar approaches are available at some airports but I haven't done one since I was a flight instructor.
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Posted: 5/26/2017 10:38:08 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
after a while you learn to not even feel the inner ear lying to you. I haven't had the leans in 20+ years. 
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Posted: 5/26/2017 10:43:02 AM EDT
[#32]
Lots of confusion in this thread. VFR and VMC are different things.
VFR - visual flight rules / VMC - visual meterological conditions IFR - instrument flight rules / IMC - instrument meteorological conditions If you are on a VFR clearance, and enter IMC, the three biggest hazards will be pilot inexperience, terrain clearance, and aircraft deconfliction - in that order. There is nothing inherently dangerous about it if you are at a safe altitude, have communications with ATC, and are instrument rated. Simply pick up an IFR clearance and be on your way. Edit: It's semantics to some, and the terms are used to mean the same things, but they are different. You can be on an IFR clearance flying in VMC or IMC. When on a VFR clearance, you should only fly in VMC. You do not fly into IFR or VFR. |
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Posted: 5/26/2017 10:46:44 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
First time my instructor took me into IMC it was interesting. I was a student pilot working toward my private and was told it would be highly beneficial for me to get some real IMC experience in case I inadvertently found myself in it. We blasted off and were told to climb to 4000, heading 160. My instructor told me to maintain exactly that heading 500' per minute up. Ok, no problem I say. Things are going great. Then we are told to turn heading of 270. Hey, that's easy! Start a right turn, standard rate... looking good and 270. So here's the fun part. As I roll out on the 270 heading my inner ear is telling me that I'm still in the turn....I physically ( my body ) start leaning to the right, into my instructor. Meanwhile even though I was momentarily holding a 270 heading my body is telling me I'm still in a turn! So my brain try's to make sense of this and tells me to turn back to the left and I add more left aileron! So now I'm physically leaning to the right and have a left turn right as I'm about to level at 4000 feet. And... that was when the instructor said " my controls"
The bottom line is, the first time you experience IMC as the pilot flying it can be extremely disorienting. Your body is very used to your inner ear dictating your equilibrium and when things don't react like there supposed to it will mess with you. Case in point  EDIT: If you are training for your Private Single Engine Land certificate and you don't have at least 5 hours ground instrument sim and 5 hours in the plane under the hood, your instructor's doing it wrong. |
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Posted: 5/26/2017 10:47:06 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lots of confusion in this thread. VFR and VMC are different things. VFR - visual flight rules / VMC - visual meterological conditions IFR - instrument flight rules / IMC - instrument meteorological conditions If you are on a VFR clearance, and enter IMC, the three biggest hazards will be pilot inexperience, terrain clearance, and aircraft deconfliction - in that order. There is nothing inherently dangerous about it if you are at a safe altitude, have communications with ATC, and are instrument rated. Simply pick up an IFR clearance and be on your way. |
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Posted: 5/26/2017 10:48:23 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What instrument rated pilot flies VFR? I haven't flown VFR in 20 years. I used to reposition a jet 6 miles IFR all the time. Didn't even retract the flaps unless I was vectored on an approach. |
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Posted: 5/26/2017 10:49:21 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When the airplane is flying in a trimmed (i.e., no skidding) descending spiral, the load vector points straight down from the seat. Hence your head believes you are straight and level, and hasn't been trained to ignore the sensation and believe the instruments. Moving your head around amplifies the sensation due to the accelerations that causes on the inner ear, especially doing a task such as reaching for a fuel selector or picking a pen off the floor. The sensation is so strong that it is compelling. Training makes the job of ignoring the sensation fairly easy while using the instruments for reference. Don't pick up your pen or flashlight. 
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Posted: 5/26/2017 10:50:40 AM EDT
[#37]
Read about the JFK Jr flight at night over water and in possibly hazy conditions. Three people dead.
Lots of stupid mistakes in that event. Just using and autopilot until he got to the island with lights might have prevented those deaths. |
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Posted: 5/26/2017 10:57:51 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Military training. Low levels and such. VFR is way more fun. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
What instrument rated pilot flies VFR? I haven't flown VFR in 20 years. I used to reposition a jet 6 miles IFR all the time. Didn't even retract the flaps unless I was vectored on an approach. |
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Posted: 5/26/2017 11:03:25 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's been a while but as I recall she either stole the plane or wasn't authorized to fly it under the circumstances by the school she was at. If I remember correctly the last radar hit was at 600 feet and the controller was telling her to climb. When I departed MCO the ceiling was around 400 feet and was very thin. |
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Posted: 5/26/2017 11:03:43 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I buy all of that. But I remember when I first had TCAS and saw just how much VFR traffic was around me. For 20 years ATC is my best friend and I hate operating at non-towered airports. But being VFR in relatively high performance aircraft, where nobody is watching you on radar, even if you wanted them too, is fun. The Colorado Rockies come to mind. |
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Posted: 5/26/2017 11:04:30 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What instrument rated pilot flies VFR? I haven't flown VFR in 20 years. I used to reposition a jet 6 miles IFR all the time. Didn't even retract the flaps unless I was vectored on an approach. 
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Posted: 5/26/2017 11:09:11 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Concept RE: load vector illustrated, correct? https://richardwiseman.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/airplane.png
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Posted: 5/26/2017 11:09:42 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Uhhhh...I do Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
What instrument rated pilot flies VFR? I haven't flown VFR in 20 years. I used to reposition a jet 6 miles IFR all the time. Didn't even retract the flaps unless I was vectored on an approach.
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Posted: 5/26/2017 11:13:29 AM EDT
[#44]
I remember flying IFR to Oshkosh with my brother. There was a cloud deck below us that was sloping / angled. I was leaning against the door because I thought we were in a 10 or 15 degree bank! We were perfectly straight & level. BTW, I'm a low time VFR pilot & I flew the required 1/2 hour or hour under the hood to get my ticket.
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Posted: 5/26/2017 11:14:41 AM EDT
[#45]
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Alright, I'm no pilot, so explain this mindfuck of a picture for me, please? Going vertical? I'm so confused |
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Posted: 5/26/2017 11:16:12 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What instrument rated pilot flies VFR? I haven't flown VFR in 20 years. I used to reposition a jet 6 miles IFR all the time. Didn't even retract the flaps unless I was vectored on an approach. |
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Posted: 5/26/2017 11:16:52 AM EDT
[#47]
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G-forces. Like losing your stomach at the top of a roller coaster, only opposite. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Alright, I'm no pilot, so explain this mindfuck of a picture for me, please? Going vertical? I'm so confused Yes, I'm a dumbass when it comes to this topic... |
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Posted: 5/26/2017 11:18:14 AM EDT
[#48]
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So the G-force is making the water go into the cup? Yes, I'm a dumbass when it comes to this topic... |
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Posted: 5/26/2017 11:20:27 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You ever ride the gravitron at the state fair? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So the G-force is making the water go into the cup? Yes, I'm a dumbass when it comes to this topic...
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Posted: 5/26/2017 11:24:25 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What instrument rated pilot flies VFR? I haven't flown VFR in 20 years. I used to reposition a jet 6 miles IFR all the time. Didn't even retract the flaps unless I was vectored on an approach. |
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