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Posted: 7/3/2015 8:01:55 PM EDT
[#1]
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Would it be so unreasonable for God to just say, " Hello down there, here I am. You all don't have to rely on stories passed down from stone age people. I'm here. Want to have a conversation? " This is exactly the premise Christopher Hitchen's uses when he argues that of the minimum 100,000 years that humans have been on this sphere heaven looked on with indifference. Then, in the last 5k years heaven decided to intervene. ...really? |
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Posted: 7/3/2015 8:02:08 PM EDT
[#2]
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Would it be so unreasonable for God to just say, " Hello down there, here I am. You all don't have to rely on stories passed down from stone age people. I'm here. Want to have a conversation? " Now wouldn't that be wonderful. But there is always an answer, an excuse if you will. They will say you need faith. And I would ask why do I need faith? Tell me you're there and I'll believe. And tell me so others know, not just by an emotional feeling that everyone gets and believes comes from their own respective god. |
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Posted: 7/3/2015 8:03:26 PM EDT
[#3]
Fear, and the desperate need to believe that they are so special that they will survive, for all eternity, rather than die like all of us atheists will.
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Posted: 7/3/2015 8:11:16 PM EDT
[#4]
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Just a tad disingenuous to simplify something so complex don't you think? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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OP are you married? In Love? have children? All of the above. 29 year wonderful marriage, 3 grown contributing adult children. Totally illogical to marry etc. Love is not logical, it cannot be reasoned with yet it exists. I assume you supported the kids until they were grown. Totally illogical. Your biological imperative is to impregnate as many women as possible to spread your genes. If you have adopted logic and reason only then you must rid yourself of these silly illogical relationships and emotions. Just a tad disingenuous to simplify something so complex don't you think? You mean like religion? |
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Posted: 7/3/2015 8:14:22 PM EDT
[#5]
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You mean like religion? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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OP are you married? In Love? have children? All of the above. 29 year wonderful marriage, 3 grown contributing adult children. Totally illogical to marry etc. Love is not logical, it cannot be reasoned with yet it exists. I assume you supported the kids until they were grown. Totally illogical. Your biological imperative is to impregnate as many women as possible to spread your genes. If you have adopted logic and reason only then you must rid yourself of these silly illogical relationships and emotions. Just a tad disingenuous to simplify something so complex don't you think? You mean like religion? lol |
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Posted: 7/3/2015 8:20:21 PM EDT
[#6]
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Now wouldn't that be wonderful. But there is always an answer, an excuse if you will. They will say you need faith. And I would ask why do I need faith? Tell me you're there and I'll believe. And tell me so others know, not just by an emotional feeling that everyone gets and believes comes from their own respective god. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Would it be so unreasonable for God to just say, " Hello down there, here I am. You all don't have to rely on stories passed down from stone age people. I'm here. Want to have a conversation? " Now wouldn't that be wonderful. But there is always an answer, an excuse if you will. They will say you need faith. And I would ask why do I need faith? Tell me you're there and I'll believe. And tell me so others know, not just by an emotional feeling that everyone gets and believes comes from their own respective god. you keep saying this is not a troll thread and then you say things like that. Admit it you don't want an answer and any answer you will brush off as meaningless. Troll thread |
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Posted: 7/3/2015 8:24:13 PM EDT
[#7]
so because you cant see it you dont believe Thomas...or do you believe that you evolved from apes I believe i came from christ. On that we would agree
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Posted: 7/3/2015 8:25:23 PM EDT
[#8]
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You mean like religion? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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OP are you married? In Love? have children? All of the above. 29 year wonderful marriage, 3 grown contributing adult children. Totally illogical to marry etc. Love is not logical, it cannot be reasoned with yet it exists. I assume you supported the kids until they were grown. Totally illogical. Your biological imperative is to impregnate as many women as possible to spread your genes. If you have adopted logic and reason only then you must rid yourself of these silly illogical relationships and emotions. Just a tad disingenuous to simplify something so complex don't you think? You mean like religion? Actually, religion is simplistic--it's very core is control. |
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Posted: 7/3/2015 8:30:10 PM EDT
[#9]
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I was guilty of suspending my logic for decades as a religious person. I've been out of religion for five years and I feel as though the truth (Science and logic) has set me free. Anyone else come to this conclusion after years in religion? Why are we so logical and analytical in every other aspect of our lives? But when it comes to God and religion we suspend all forms of logic and common sense. This is not a bashing thread, I was one of the religious people who believed for years and years, I get it. It is just an interesting phenomenon. It is because a central tenet of religion is faith without proof, and it is something most people are raised with by their parents. Religion also provides an immensely comforting answer to death, so people want to believe it. That doesn't apply in many other aspects of life, where it pays to be skeptical. |
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Posted: 7/3/2015 8:30:36 PM EDT
[#10]
The brightest, most educated most analytical people I personally know believe in almighty God. People smarter than me, and in all probability smarter than you too. Most folks today are so self involved they can't see the people God puts in their paths let alone God himself.
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Posted: 7/3/2015 8:30:49 PM EDT
[#11]
I believe in God because it makes more sense to me than atheism. That and the fact that, among the people I know, the religious people are consistently happier with their lives than the atheists.
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Posted: 7/3/2015 8:31:20 PM EDT
[#12]
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I was guilty of suspending my logic for decades as a religious person. I've been out of religion for five years and I feel as though the truth (Science and logic) has set me free. Anyone else come to this conclusion after years in religion? Why are we so logical and analytical in every other aspect of our lives? But when it comes to God and religion we suspend all forms of logic and common sense. This is not a bashing thread, I was one of the religious people who believed for years and years, I get it. It is just an interesting phenomenon. I think you are confused about who is abandoning logic. |
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Posted: 7/3/2015 8:34:15 PM EDT
[#13]
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Totally illogical to marry etc. Love is not logical, it cannot be reasoned with yet it exists. I assume you supported the kids until they were grown. Totally illogical. Your biological imperative is to impregnate as many women as possible to spread your genes. If you have adopted logic and reason only then you must rid yourself of these silly illogical relationships and emotions. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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OP are you married? In Love? have children? All of the above. 29 year wonderful marriage, 3 grown contributing adult children. Totally illogical to marry etc. Love is not logical, it cannot be reasoned with yet it exists. I assume you supported the kids until they were grown. Totally illogical. Your biological imperative is to impregnate as many women as possible to spread your genes. If you have adopted logic and reason only then you must rid yourself of these silly illogical relationships and emotions. Fail. There are biological reasons for people being attracted to each other. Emotions are biological. |
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Posted: 7/3/2015 8:35:02 PM EDT
[#14]
One can have faith in God, use logic and believe in science.
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Posted: 7/3/2015 8:41:12 PM EDT
[#15]
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I laugh with the buddha-laughter at the caricature God has become like cave paintings in the hearts of men  If that's not original, quote your source. |
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Posted: 7/3/2015 8:42:34 PM EDT
[#16]
I pose a different question. Why do atheists feel the need to "prove" their "intellectual superiority"?
 I will assume it has to do with finding the first pubic hair growing on their scrotum and now they believe they know everything. You atheists remind me of vegans or any other gay hipster trendy shit. First, you never shut up about it. Even when no one asked you. Second, you love to show how much better you are then a "bunch of dumb hicks".
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Posted: 7/3/2015 8:44:27 PM EDT
[#17]
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I was guilty of suspending my logic for decades as a religious person. I've been out of religion for five years and I feel as though the truth (Science and logic) has set me free. Anyone else come to this conclusion after years in religion? Why are we so logical and analytical in every other aspect of our lives? But when it comes to God and religion we suspend all forms of logic and common sense. This is not a bashing thread, I was one of the religious people who believed for years and years, I get it. It is just an interesting phenomenon. Reason, science, and logic are not at all incompatible with the Christian Faith (certainly not orthodox Christianity). I'm not sure why you believe it to be the case. There has been a lot of work by Christian thinkers (many also theologians) in the fields of science and philosophy. Ultimately, some things about this universe are unknown or incomprehensible using pure reason or observation. Faith in divine revelation of those truths enriches our overall pursuit of truth; it does not detract from it. That sort of knowledge is incorporated into what we can observe and our ability to reason in pursuit of such ends. |
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Posted: 7/3/2015 8:48:44 PM EDT
[#18]
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Now wouldn't that be wonderful. But there is always an answer, an excuse if you will. They will say you need faith. And I would ask why do I need faith? Tell me you're there and I'll believe. And tell me so others know, not just by an emotional feeling that everyone gets and believes comes from their own respective god. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Would it be so unreasonable for God to just say, " Hello down there, here I am. You all don't have to rely on stories passed down from stone age people. I'm here. Want to have a conversation? " Now wouldn't that be wonderful. But there is always an answer, an excuse if you will. They will say you need faith. And I would ask why do I need faith? Tell me you're there and I'll believe. And tell me so others know, not just by an emotional feeling that everyone gets and believes comes from their own respective god. Really, that's it. I believe that God revealed Himself to me through His word (the Bible); this is also the way that He has revealed Himself to everyone else. Some people choose not to believe that. You're also right about faith: without faith I could not be absolutely sure that there is a God. In a sense it really is illogical in that It violates our human desire for absolute scientific proof. What I understand from the Bible is that God wants me to go beyond my human understanding and seek Him by faith. If the Bible is just another old book to you, then I understand why you wouldn't believe. ETA: I also agree with you in that I find it dubious when people say that God reveals things to them through their feelings. |
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Posted: 7/3/2015 8:50:48 PM EDT
[#19]
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If that's not original, quote your source. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I laugh with the buddha-laughter at the caricature God has become like cave paintings in the hearts of men If that's not original, quote your source. Works cited: "The Thousand Petals of Oiparhon's Amusing Little Mind " by Odhisea Oiparhon
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Posted: 7/3/2015 8:57:23 PM EDT
[#20]
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I was guilty of suspending my logic for decades as a religious person. I've been out of religion for five years and I feel as though the truth (Science and logic) has set me free. Anyone else come to this conclusion after years in religion? Why are we so logical and analytical in every other aspect of our lives? But when it comes to God and religion we suspend all forms of logic and common sense. This is not a bashing thread, I was one of the religious people who believed for years and years, I get it. It is just an interesting phenomenon. I believe in God because of science. Take an anatomy class and tell me if you still think our design is an accident. It's too perfect. |
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Posted: 7/3/2015 9:02:58 PM EDT
[#21]
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so because you cant see it you dont believe Thomas...or do you believe that you evolved from apes I believe i came from christ. On that we would agree This keeps cropping up. No one, except the sadly misinformed, or those grinding a religious ax, have ever said that humans evolved from apes. (sigh) |
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Posted: 7/3/2015 9:04:52 PM EDT
[#22]
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I pose a different question. Why do atheists feel the need to "prove" their "intellectual superiority"? I will assume it has to do with finding the first pubic hair growing on their scrotum and now they believe they know everything. You atheists remind me of vegans or any other gay hipster trendy shit. First, you never shut up about it. Even when no one asked you. Second, you love to show how much better you are then a "bunch of dumb hicks".There's an old saying, which I can't recall right now. Something about pots and kettles. |
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Posted: 7/3/2015 9:16:08 PM EDT
[#23]
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I believe in God because of science. Take an anatomy class and tell me if you still think our design is an accident. It's too perfect. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I was guilty of suspending my logic for decades as a religious person. I've been out of religion for five years and I feel as though the truth (Science and logic) has set me free. Anyone else come to this conclusion after years in religion? Why are we so logical and analytical in every other aspect of our lives? But when it comes to God and religion we suspend all forms of logic and common sense. This is not a bashing thread, I was one of the religious people who believed for years and years, I get it. It is just an interesting phenomenon. I believe in God because of science. Take an anatomy class and tell me if you still think our design is an accident. It's too perfect. Well this one sort of falls apart. I don't mean that in a mean or snarky way. We have organs that are no longer being used, but if they start to fail they can kill us. Our joints are still not completely suited to being upright especially the knee and the relatively short ITB. Our jaw line has changed so drastically that our natural teeth can cause excrutiating pain just growing in, and our tail is still present. |
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Posted: 7/3/2015 9:17:22 PM EDT
[#24]
It by it's very name Faith, means you must believe without proof.
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Posted: 7/3/2015 9:21:18 PM EDT
[#25]
The next question you should be learning to answer is "why do you give a fuck what the next person believes?"
Yes, I know that PLENTY of people think that they know better what you should believe than you do....but when nobody knows the answer to the question, any answer is theoretically correct and the rest are wrong/less right...but like schrodinger's cat, you can't know the answer without opening the box (death, in this case). I just don't get why anyone gives a single solitary fuck if the next person believes in the same religion/non-religion as they do. I don't get it. |
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Posted: 7/3/2015 9:22:46 PM EDT
[#26]
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Actually, religion is simplistic--it's very core is control. You don't have a clue. |
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Posted: 7/3/2015 9:23:16 PM EDT
[#27]
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I asked myself the same thing (actually - a few friends that I was proselytizing to asked it for me), once upon a time. It started a slow process of realizing that I wasn't being internally consistent. I demanded testable and potentially falsifiable evidence in every solitary aspect of my life that mattered...except one. "Faith and my religion are different", I'd say, Over time, little by little, I just sort of stopped believing in God. There wasn't a single eureka moment. When I joined this site in 2004, I still had a faint belief in God. A seriously bored individual with no life could skim over my old posts, and watch the transition. Anyway, I've written the equivalent of a novel over the years, explaining why I don't believe in God, and otherwise discussing non-belief in hundreds of threads. To be perfectly honest, I've said more than enough, and I'm kind of bored with the subject at this point. I'm perfectly content to just be left alone with my non-belief, and you know what? The vast majority (online or offline) are perfectly content to just leave me be. I'm happy with that. These days, I really only care to answer sincere questions. I've lost any and all motivation to convince believers that I'm right. Seriously. If they want to know where I'm coming from (and why) because they're curious, then fine. I'll indulge them. But I'm no longer interested in talking people out of their faith. I'm not interested in talking liberals out of their political ideology anymore, either. Same deal. If they want to know why my politics are the way they are, I'm happy to oblige in telling them. But beyond that...whatever. Also this. All of this....except I was never a believer. But the rest is 100% spot on. |
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Posted: 7/3/2015 9:23:26 PM EDT
[#28]
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Well this one sort of falls apart. I don't mean that in a mean or snarky way. We have organs that are no longer being used, but if they start to fail they can kill us. Our joints are still not completely suited to being upright especially the knee and the relatively short ITB. Our jaw line has changed so drastically that our natural teeth can cause excrutiating pain just growing in, and our tail is still present. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I was guilty of suspending my logic for decades as a religious person. I've been out of religion for five years and I feel as though the truth (Science and logic) has set me free. Anyone else come to this conclusion after years in religion? Why are we so logical and analytical in every other aspect of our lives? But when it comes to God and religion we suspend all forms of logic and common sense. This is not a bashing thread, I was one of the religious people who believed for years and years, I get it. It is just an interesting phenomenon. I believe in God because of science. Take an anatomy class and tell me if you still think our design is an accident. It's too perfect. Well this one sort of falls apart. I don't mean that in a mean or snarky way. We have organs that are no longer being used, but if they start to fail they can kill us. Our joints are still not completely suited to being upright especially the knee and the relatively short ITB. Our jaw line has changed so drastically that our natural teeth can cause excrutiating pain just growing in, and our tail is still present. Are you sure it's really unneeded |
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Posted: 7/3/2015 10:05:06 PM EDT
[#29]
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1st post DOESN'T nail it. I am asking a sincere question Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Troll thread  1st post DOESN'T nail it. I am asking a sincere question I don't know, why don't you tell us why you gave up logic and reason. I have seen more then enough proof of god. Yes, it is confusing how some are able to dismiss that evidence with excuses like "coincidence" |
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Posted: 7/3/2015 10:15:36 PM EDT
[#30]
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I have seen more then enough proof of god. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Troll thread 1st post DOESN'T nail it. I am asking a sincere question I have seen more then enough proof of god. Care to cite some? |
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Posted: 7/3/2015 10:31:19 PM EDT
[#31]
This is clearly a troll thread, but I'll bite.
Only human arrogance would allow the created, to believe that they know more than the Creator. When we believe that our logic has become so great, that we're too smart to believe in a higher power, we have then reached the level of arrogance I mentioned above. Many people have a rude awakening coming. But of course that's illogical, so you have nothing to worry about. |
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Posted: 7/3/2015 10:41:39 PM EDT
[#32]
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I was guilty of suspending my logic for decades as a religious person. I've been out of religion for five years and I feel as though the truth (Science and logic) has set me free. Anyone else come to this conclusion after years in religion? Why are we so logical and analytical in every other aspect of our lives? But when it comes to God and religion we suspend all forms of logic and common sense. This is not a bashing thread, I was one of the religious people who believed for years and years, I get it. It is just an interesting phenomenon. Yup, I came to a similar decision. It's a relief. |
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Posted: 7/3/2015 10:48:22 PM EDT
[#33]
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I pose a different question. Why do atheists feel the need to "prove" their "intellectual superiority"? I will assume it has to do with finding the first pubic hair growing on their scrotum and now they believe they know everything. You atheists remind me of vegans or any other gay hipster trendy shit. First, you never shut up about it. Even when no one asked you. Second, you love to show how much better you are then a "bunch of dumb hicks".I have never tried to "prove" any "intellectual superiority" sir. I am certainly not trendy. I am a "hick". I grew up a believer. When I think about Christianity it really makes no sense. God had his only son killed because a woman ate a forbidden fruit and that was the only way to forgive humanity . What is the point of life? Is it Gods game? If he is all knowing he knows every thing before it happens forever. If you have free will is it really free will if he knows how everyone will use it in the future to the end of time? He loves us all so much but then he will give a person cancer, why to enjoy their suffering? Then things like the holocaust, millions of people suffer and die and you have to think that most prayed desperately to him to save them and, nothing. Now I am sure you will rationalize a reason why your loving god does what he does and all of his beloved children that dare to question their faith will burn in hell forever.
Amen |
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Posted: 7/3/2015 10:53:04 PM EDT
[#34]
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This is clearly a troll thread, but I'll bite. Only human arrogance would allow the created, to believe that they know more than the Creator. When we believe that our logic has become so great, that we're too smart to believe in a higher power, we have then reached the level of arrogance I mentioned above. Many people have a rude awakening coming. But of course that's illogical, so you have nothing to worry about. I know, right. Our loving father will burn and torture me in hell, forever, for thinking that bible stories are not logical. Damn me all to hell. Amen. |
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Posted: 7/3/2015 11:39:42 PM EDT
[#35]
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Well this one sort of falls apart. I don't mean that in a mean or snarky way. We have organs that are no longer being used, but if they start to fail they can kill us. Our joints are still not completely suited to being upright especially the knee and the relatively short ITB. Our jaw line has changed so drastically that our natural teeth can cause excrutiating pain just growing in, and our tail is still present. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I was guilty of suspending my logic for decades as a religious person. I've been out of religion for five years and I feel as though the truth (Science and logic) has set me free. Anyone else come to this conclusion after years in religion? Why are we so logical and analytical in every other aspect of our lives? But when it comes to God and religion we suspend all forms of logic and common sense. This is not a bashing thread, I was one of the religious people who believed for years and years, I get it. It is just an interesting phenomenon. I believe in God because of science. Take an anatomy class and tell me if you still think our design is an accident. It's too perfect. Well this one sort of falls apart. I don't mean that in a mean or snarky way. We have organs that are no longer being used, but if they start to fail they can kill us. Our joints are still not completely suited to being upright especially the knee and the relatively short ITB. Our jaw line has changed so drastically that our natural teeth can cause excrutiating pain just growing in, and our tail is still present. Well lets look at something as simple as muscle contraction. Nerves release something called acetycholine (ACH) that cross a synapes, traveling down T-tubules into the muscle. The rush of ACH causes the release of calcium that bind to troponin, causing a shift in troponin/tropomyosin, opening up the bind sites allowing for the myosin head to bind to the actin filaments. ATP phosphorolates causing the myosin head to tug on the actin, causing muscle contraction. The nerve keeps producing ACH throughout this process until I want to stop causing muscle contraction. When I want to stop contraction an enzyme gets rid of whatever ACH is floating around in the synapse, this stops calcium from being released. When calcium isn't released, the bind sites are covered by the troponin, preventing muscle contraction. Sure people evolve, which would actually be a good thing since the body is adapting itself to survive in its new surroundings, but its certainly not an accident. |
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Posted: 7/4/2015 12:14:32 AM EDT
[#36]
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I don't know, why don't you tell us why you gave up logic and reason. I have seen more then enough proof of god. Yes, it is confusing how some are able to dismiss that evidence with excuses like "coincidence" So many other people have as well. Thich Quang Duc, a Buddhist monk, burns himself to death. He never moved a muscle or uttered a sound. Mohammed Atta, a college-educated architect, moved to the USA in January 2001. He stayed here until his death. He never wavered in his plans. My point, here, is not to equate Christianity with any other religion or any of these acts, obviously. But one has to look above and realize that these people had faith. Faith that was much stronger than most people's. They believed in their particular religion so much, that they gave their lives for the cause. Faith means nothing. Two people, from completely opposite religions, had enough faith to kill themselves. At least one of their religions is flat-out wrong. It's easy to say "Well, my religion is the right one, and you're wrong! I have faith!" But they did as well. And one, infact most likely both, were dead wrong. |
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Posted: 7/4/2015 6:03:41 AM EDT
[#37]
Questions for atheists:
1) What caused the Big Bang (which is reverse entropy, interestingly enough)? 2) What existed *before* the Big Bang? 3) How did the first cellular life form develop the first cellular membrane? By chance? How does a cellular membrane develop "by chance"? 4) If you believe the above all occurred w/o God, don't you have *faith* that some supposedly logical reason exists for the above that you simply *can't prove*? I believe in my sig line. Tomac |
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Posted: 7/4/2015 6:31:37 AM EDT
[#38]
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Troll thread |
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Posted: 7/4/2015 6:34:52 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Questions for atheists: 1) What caused the Big Bang (which is reverse entropy, interestingly enough)? 2) What existed *before* the Big Bang? 3) How did the first cellular life form develop the first cellular membrane? By chance? How does a cellular membrane develop "by chance"? 4) If you believe the above all occurred w/o God, don't you have *faith* that some supposedly logical reason exists for the above that you simply *can't prove*? I believe in my sig line. Tomac 1.) No idea, not sure it had to have a cause. 2.) Not sure time as we understand it existed before the big bang. We want there to be a before because its what we're familiar with but there may not have been a before. 3.) Don't know, doesn't mean god did it just like lightning, earth quakes, etc. 4.) So far the supernatural hasn't been the answer to any question. Gods have historically been used to explain gaps in knowledge. Just because I can't definitively say why something has happened today doesn't mean there's an all powerful force behind it. To expect that to be the actual case for the first time isn't a reasonable assumption. |
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Posted: 7/4/2015 6:35:29 AM EDT
[#40]
For most it's a combination of fear and "that's the way we've always done it".
The vast majority of people are religious because their parents told them to be. |
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Posted: 7/4/2015 6:50:56 AM EDT
[#41]
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Indoctrination from birth. It's a tried and true methodology, perfected over millenia. Not me. I was an atheist until early 20's. I am a christian now (46) |
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Posted: 7/4/2015 6:52:04 AM EDT
[#42]
Logic and reason are specifically what brought me to Christ.
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Posted: 7/4/2015 6:58:35 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why is believing in God illogical? Doesn't intelligent design make sense? That's the problem with logic. It can be constructed to support any theory, as long as you believe it to be true. The problem with ID is that it can't be tested. Thus, it's faith, not science. |
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Posted: 7/4/2015 7:02:18 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are you saying we should be forbidden to speak of such things? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Troll thread Why do atheists take it so personal? Why do atheists interject their bullshit on faithful without a prompt? Atheists are no better than the radical gay marriage crowd, the pro abortion crowd, etc. They have to start a fight where there is none to justify the hole in their explanations for everything? Are you saying we should be forbidden to speak of such things? You are not allowed to question those who know they are right. They will not argue, they will only deny you the right to discuss things that conflict with their belief system. Note the immediate personal attacks, right from square one. |
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Posted: 7/4/2015 7:05:25 AM EDT
[#45]
Just answering the thread's subject: ...because dogma is funny like that.
Because religion naturally suspends reasoning, there is the notion called SoCaS; and it's quite ironic that believers can't recognize the logic and reason for SoCaS. |
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Posted: 7/4/2015 7:07:35 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Believing in God does not equal believing in religion, they are different philosophies which exist independently. Almost every argument I read against God, is actually an argument against religion. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I was guilty of suspending my logic for decades as a religious person. I've been out of religion for five years and I feel as though the truth (Science and logic) has set me free. Anyone else come to this conclusion after years in religion? Why are we so logical and analytical in every other aspect of our lives? But when it comes to God and religion we suspend all forms of logic and common sense. This is not a bashing thread, I was one of the religious people who believed for years and years, I get it. It is just an interesting phenomenon. Believing in God does not equal believing in religion, they are different philosophies which exist independently. Almost every argument I read against God, is actually an argument against religion. This. The best science understands that we can't answer all the questions, and it is at that point that faith becomes important. The search for truth often conflicts with religious denial of empirical truth. Self-discovery is anathema to those who would have us abandon free will, in favor of 'God's will.' Religions all to often fail to embrace scientific truths that, in the end, will lead them to a truer understanding of God, and Man's place in creation. |
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Posted: 7/4/2015 7:24:54 AM EDT
[#47]
Born and raised Catholic here.
Studied the Vatican and man's interpretation of religion. I opened my mind and not Catholic anymore. It's called "fanaticism" and anyone who thinks otherwise, goes to hell. Guess that's one way to pay for parishioners to everything in the church and the lawsuits. Still believe in the Creator... |
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Posted: 7/4/2015 7:32:56 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
First post DOES nail it. SECOND post continues to try keeping troll thread alive. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Troll thread First post DOES nail it. SECOND post continues to try keeping troll thread alive. This |
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Posted: 7/4/2015 7:33:47 AM EDT
[#49]
My experience was different from yours. I never abandoned logic or reason. Ultimately, I demanded them.
When I first became a Christian, it was the result of the Holy Spirit drawing me and turning on the illumination of faith. Prior to that, I was definitely not a Christian. I mocked them. I was wrapped up in a self-indulgent, rebellious life and was loving it. However, at that moment when the light switch was turned on, I couldn't imagine saying, "No." That was the first step in the transformation. Things were going fine for several months, and then I had a crisis of faith. I was asked why I was a Christian and my immediate response was, "Because I know in my heart it's right." As the words left my mouth they sounded shallow and hollow in my ears. What I said was fine for my subjective experience (it was indeed a real experience), but I was dissatisfied with the inability to articulate an objective rationale for my faith. At that point I decided to look into the background of it. If there was nothing historical or rational to back it up, I was fully prepared to dump it. After all, life is too short and too serious to live for a myth. I started reading into the history (yes, there is real history), the evidences, and apologetics. I also read criticisms of the Christian faith to see both sides of the issue and make a proper evaluation. There had been what I call a disconnect between my heart and my head that caused tension. After my study (which continues today), that disconnect was resolved. That was in 1986. God never says, "Shut up and believe." Rather, He says, "Come now, let us reason together (Isaiah 1:18). If one thinks that logic and reason have to be abandoned for faith, they have not read Francis Schaeffer or C.S. Lewis. I also recommend going to YouTube and looking up some lectures by John Lennox. I hear a lot of people speak of "going to church for a while", then "getting smart" and leaving. This mischaracterizes the event. Jesus spoke of this in a parable in Matthew 13: That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2 Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3 Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”...
18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.” |
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Posted: 7/4/2015 7:34:43 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It is because a central tenet of religion is faith without proof, and it is something most people are raised with by their parents. Religion also provides an immensely comforting answer to death, so people want to believe it. That doesn't apply in many other aspects of life, where it pays to be skeptical. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I was guilty of suspending my logic for decades as a religious person. I've been out of religion for five years and I feel as though the truth (Science and logic) has set me free. Anyone else come to this conclusion after years in religion? Why are we so logical and analytical in every other aspect of our lives? But when it comes to God and religion we suspend all forms of logic and common sense. This is not a bashing thread, I was one of the religious people who believed for years and years, I get it. It is just an interesting phenomenon. It is because a central tenet of religion is faith without proof, and it is something most people are raised with by their parents. Religion also provides an immensely comforting answer to death, so people want to believe it. That doesn't apply in many other aspects of life, where it pays to be skeptical. That is a biased, uninformed opinion. |
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