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Posted: 10/25/2014 7:26:02 PM EDT
[#1]
Past about $5000 you are only paying for nicer engraving and wood. Up to that level you are paying for increasingly better fit and finish, smoothness of action, reliability, and "liveliness" in the hands. A $400 will mechanically do what a $2000 Silver Pigeon does, but it's like going 0-100 in a Mustang compared to a Ferrari.
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Posted: 10/25/2014 7:27:14 PM EDT
[#2]
$1000? That's cheap.
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Posted: 10/25/2014 7:27:48 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have HEARD that they are built so the barrels have the same POI (IOW each bore axis is not completely parallel with the other), but I have no idea if true. That is referred to as regulation, and it's one reason double guns are spendy. Particularly the rifles. If it's got automatic ejectors, there are essentially four firing mechanisms in them as well, all working in concert. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 7:28:04 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I haven't been on here much today, but you win the "stupid statement of the day" award! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Yesterdays technology at tomorrows prices. A nice semi-auto shotgun is better period. I haven't been on here much today, but you win the "stupid statement of the day" award! Not as stupid as one would think...IMO my Benelli Supersport does EVERYTHING better than my friends Purdey, and yes I have shot it, and when he shot my Benelli he said it was very, very nice. At some point you are paying for badge, is a Bentley twice the car a S class Mercedes is? No, of course not, but you get something else. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 7:28:18 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A good semi auto costs quite a bit more than $1k if you plan on buying one that fits you and then shooting any appreciable volume of shells through it. I shoot about 20k rounds a year in sporting clays, 5 stand and FITASC. I depend on a shotgun tnat fits me, shoots where I look and will go Bang when I need it to. You can't get that without spending some coin. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted:
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Accuracy? No Durability? No Reliability? No Fancy carvings on the stock? Yes That must have taken forever shooting 2 at a time. 
A good semi-auto is worth $1000. A 2-shotter? A good semi auto costs quite a bit more than $1k if you plan on buying one that fits you and then shooting any appreciable volume of shells through it. I shoot about 20k rounds a year in sporting clays, 5 stand and FITASC. I depend on a shotgun tnat fits me, shoots where I look and will go Bang when I need it to. You can't get that without spending some coin. Sure, you can. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 7:29:09 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Past about $5000 you are only paying for nicer engraving and wood. Up to that level you are paying for increasingly better fit and finish, smoothness of action, reliability, and "liveliness" in the hands. A $400 will mechanically do what a $2000 Silver Pigeon does, but it's like going 0-100 in a Mustang compared to a Ferrari. A $400 mechanism will not stand up to anywhere near the round count of a SP. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 7:32:28 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryKrieghoff. I can only dream... |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 7:35:08 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Accuracy? No Durability? No Reliability? No Fancy carvings on the stock? Yes put 500,000 rounds through your AR and let me know how it works My K80 was in nearly perfect condition after 500,000 shots
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Posted: 10/25/2014 7:39:00 PM EDT
[#9]
Thread needs more Krighoff K-80's.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 7:39:25 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That must have taken forever shooting 2 at a time. A good semi-auto is worth $1000. A 2-shotter? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Accuracy? No Durability? No Reliability? No Fancy carvings on the stock? Yes That must have taken forever shooting 2 at a time. A good semi-auto is worth $1000. A 2-shotter? |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 7:44:52 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A $400 mechanism will not stand up to anywhere near the round count of a SP. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Past about $5000 you are only paying for nicer engraving and wood. Up to that level you are paying for increasingly better fit and finish, smoothness of action, reliability, and "liveliness" in the hands. A $400 will mechanically do what a $2000 Silver Pigeon does, but it's like going 0-100 in a Mustang compared to a Ferrari. A $400 mechanism will not stand up to anywhere near the round count of a SP. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 7:46:59 PM EDT
[#12]
STATUS.
ONLY THIS. STATUS. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 7:47:21 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
completely wrong put 500,000 rounds through your AR and let me know how it works My K80 was in nearly perfect condition after 500,000 shots Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Accuracy? No Durability? No Reliability? No Fancy carvings on the stock? Yes put 500,000 rounds through your AR and let me know how it works My K80 was in nearly perfect condition after 500,000 shots That's an apples and oranges comparison. Saami specs 10 gauge 11,000 12 gauge 11,500 (except 3-1/2 in.) 12 gauge 3 1/2 in. 14,000 16 gauge 11,500 20 Gauge 12,000 28 gauge 12,500 .410 Bore 2 1/2 in. 12,500 .410 Bore 3 in. 13,500 .223 55,114 psi Which type of gun do you think will last longer one that has to endure much more pressure, heat, a higher velocity projectile, and has a rifled barrel or one with lower pressure, less heat, slower velocity projectiles without a rifled barrel? |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 7:47:31 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If one wanted to purchase one of these beasts for about 2500$ what brand/model would one look for? Beretta. For 2500 you should be able to find a silver pigeon (686) new. If you want a dedicated clays gun, look for a used 682 (mechanically the same, but built more for competition) 682's were over 4000 new. I believe they have been replaced by the 692 now. Brownings are fine also, I personally don't care for them and the higher profile receiver doesn't fit me anyway. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 7:49:09 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: Why are they so much? Seems like you pay over $1000 just to get something considered decent, when that kind of money can get you a good AR. It seems like more work would go into an AR, but obviously I am missing something. What is the deal?  |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 7:49:44 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Has anyone even shot one of the CZ or Yildiz guns to failure? I'm kinda curious as they tend to use aluminum with steel in the wearable parts. Modified boxlocks with monoblock barrels have the capability to last a long time if built right. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Past about $5000 you are only paying for nicer engraving and wood. Up to that level you are paying for increasingly better fit and finish, smoothness of action, reliability, and "liveliness" in the hands. A $400 will mechanically do what a $2000 Silver Pigeon does, but it's like going 0-100 in a Mustang compared to a Ferrari. A $400 mechanism will not stand up to anywhere near the round count of a SP. In addition to the barrels not being correctly indexed my CZ bobwhite's receiver started warping after 100 rounds. Turkish steel and labor, a quality O/U or SXS isn't going to happen. There is supposedly a guy on shotgun world with 5k or so through a CZ with no issue. I have serious doubts it will last 100-150k a SP will last. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 7:49:46 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote Historyflinch much? |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 7:55:46 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In addition to the barrels not being correctly indexed my CZ bobwhite's receiver started warping after 100 rounds. Turkish steel and labor, a quality O/U or SXS isn't going to happen. There is supposedly a guy on shotgun world with 5k or so through a CZ with no issue. I have serious doubts it will last 100-150k a SP will last. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Has anyone even shot one of the CZ or Yildiz guns to failure? I'm kinda curious as they tend to use aluminum with steel in the wearable parts. Modified boxlocks with monoblock barrels have the capability to last a long time if built right. In addition to the barrels not being correctly indexed my CZ bobwhite's receiver started warping after 100 rounds. Turkish steel and labor, a quality O/U or SXS isn't going to happen. There is supposedly a guy on shotgun world with 5k or so through a CZ with no issue. I have serious doubts it will last 100-150k a SP will last. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 7:57:36 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Aluminum receiver on the Bobwhite? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Has anyone even shot one of the CZ or Yildiz guns to failure? I'm kinda curious as they tend to use aluminum with steel in the wearable parts. Modified boxlocks with monoblock barrels have the capability to last a long time if built right. In addition to the barrels not being correctly indexed my CZ bobwhite's receiver started warping after 100 rounds. Turkish steel and labor, a quality O/U or SXS isn't going to happen. There is supposedly a guy on shotgun world with 5k or so through a CZ with no issue. I have serious doubts it will last 100-150k a SP will last. Nope, just shitty Turkish steel. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 7:58:13 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
Why are they so much? Seems like you pay over $1000 just to get something considered decent, when that kind of money can get you a good AR. It seems like more work would go into an AR, but obviously I am missing something. What is the deal? If you're one of those people whose first inclination is to say, "for xxxx I could get a good ar," you'll never get it. That is akin to saying, for the price of a Havana Churchill Cohiba I could get a carton of swishers. Stop comparing every firearm to ARs. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 8:04:29 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I know this is a little off topic, but I had often wondered what a really expensive shotgun had to offer.. One year at the SHOT Show, we looked at a set of four double barreled Over-Under shotguns from Perazzi. The entire set cost $400,000. One 12 gauge, one 20, one 28, and one .410. They had wood so beautiful it was almost unbelievable. I picked up the 20 gauge and threw it to my shoulder. I simply cannot explain how wonderful it fit. I joked to my buddy, "How could you miss a quail with such a shotgun?" If money was no object, they would definitely be worth the money. Found the pics: http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=69695 http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=69696 I was looking at the same set last year, and a goober walked up and shouldered one of the guns. He said " you think a $100,000 gun would have a recoil pad.". The Perazzi Rep calmly took it away from him and told him " if you buy it sir, we will custom fit it.to you with the recoil pad of your choice. . I laughed. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 8:12:42 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
flinch much? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nope 
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Posted: 10/25/2014 8:21:45 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Google "Purdey shotguns" if you want to see real coin. Think more than a house. These guys are local to me. guns that cost more than my house trade regularly here. And they make a number of the, in house as well. A nice blend of old world craftsmanship and art mixed with high tech process and materials. https://www.csmcspecials.com |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 8:23:15 PM EDT
[#24]
Properly regulated barrels....
And Beauty. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 8:26:02 PM EDT
[#25]
I think this belongs in this thread. An hour and a half documentary on the history and the crafting of Purdy guns. Actions are so tight that the thickness of a pound note keeps the action from locking up. If you like fine guns, and craftsmanship this is a good video to watch.
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Posted: 10/25/2014 8:32:45 PM EDT
[#26]
Here's the deal......
You spend $5000 give or take on a K-gun. But you shoot it every weekend to the tune of 200 rounds at the local club. you also take part in registered competitions 6-10x per year.....several hundred rounds each time, and a hundred bucks plus in entry fees, travel costs, and other misc items on the way...... You are pushing literally thousands of dollars of factory or reloaded ammo down your tubes every year. Now factor in the travel and event costs......the $5000 gun is the smallest part of the equation. Belive me, I'm completely sympathetic to the issue that if you do not spend $1800 or more on even a lightly used sporting gun, you'll have a gun that either doesn't fit you, or will fall apart. I'm going through this right now, and it's a real eye opener. I want the cheaper guns to work, but they won't. I want to just spend $1000 on a nice new ruger red label, but it won't cut the mustard and I'll struggle with it. I'm going down this road right now myself, and one gun for skeet and clays will likely suck for trap. As far as I can tell the best value going to to the shotgun sports is going to be a new or used beretta auto in a sportig configuration, or search for a good deal on a used beretta or browning. One thing that I do notice is that quality O/U's from known brands tend to keep their value, if not increase value. It's a safe bet that if a Citori isn't your cup of tea, you won't lose much if you decide to sell. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 8:33:19 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Accuracy? No Durability? No Reliability? No Fancy carvings on the stock? Yes I always have thought of sporting clays O/Us as the height of firearms snobbery, even more than the "Gotta be a Larue or Noveske or you ain't shit" bunch or posers in the AR world. Owning brand X or Y gun does not mean you're automatically a better shooter. It just means you have more money to spend on a gun. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 8:34:47 PM EDT
[#28]
Personally, as I go down this path myself, I'm looking at the new beretta A400 xcel. These usually sell for about $1600, but have seen them sell new for as low as $1300
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Posted: 10/25/2014 8:36:11 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I always have thought of sporting clays O/Us as the height of firearms snobbery, even more than the "Gotta be a Larue or Noveske or you ain't shit" bunch or posers in the AR world. Owning brand X or Y gun does not mean you're automatically a better shooter. It just means you have more money to spend on a gun. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Accuracy? No Durability? No Reliability? No Fancy carvings on the stock? Yes I always have thought of sporting clays O/Us as the height of firearms snobbery, even more than the "Gotta be a Larue or Noveske or you ain't shit" bunch or posers in the AR world. Owning brand X or Y gun does not mean you're automatically a better shooter. It just means you have more money to spend on a gun.  |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 8:36:32 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I always have thought of sporting clays O/Us as the height of firearms snobbery, even more than the "Gotta be a Larue or Noveske or you ain't shit" bunch or posers in the AR world. Owning brand X or Y gun does not mean you're automatically a better shooter. It just means you have more money to spend on a gun. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Accuracy? No Durability? No Reliability? No Fancy carvings on the stock? Yes I always have thought of sporting clays O/Us as the height of firearms snobbery, even more than the "Gotta be a Larue or Noveske or you ain't shit" bunch or posers in the AR world. Owning brand X or Y gun does not mean you're automatically a better shooter. It just means you have more money to spend on a gun. The guys at my club don't really give a fuck what you shoot. They do appreciate high end guns, but if you show up with a CDNN special, it's not a reflection on anyone. I'm out there with a rusty Rem 870 express with a glued and taped busted stock next to guys shooting K-80's. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 8:36:47 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
IIRC, a Bugatti Veyron Super Sport is $3.5 Million new. And it doesn't do anything a Smart Car doesn't do too a smart car can't go 200mph+ |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 8:37:53 PM EDT
[#32]
I shoot international double trap with a Perazzi MX 2008, can't begin to describe ether difference in words...it just works.
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Posted: 10/25/2014 8:38:38 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: a smart car can't go 200mph+ Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: IIRC, a Bugatti Veyron Super Sport is $3.5 Million new. And it doesn't do anything a Smart Car doesn't do too a smart car can't go 200mph+ Well it can, it just takes some JATO bottles, baling wire and three rolls of duct tape. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 8:47:06 PM EDT
[#34]
I would love a Red Label, but can not bring myself to spend that on a safe queen.
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Posted: 10/25/2014 8:48:49 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would love a Red Label, but can not bring myself to spend that on a safe queen. Red label is low end for O/U I still want one. They have a nice clean look. Wish ruger could get them right at their price segment. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 8:50:13 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There are some really good Japanese OU's that you can often find well under a grand. Name one. (unless you're talking used, in which case, I can think of a couple) |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 8:51:17 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would love a Red Label, but can not bring myself to spend that on a safe queen. Why does it have to be a safe queen??
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Posted: 10/25/2014 8:52:29 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, fire a pump/auto versus a middlin' decent O/U and you will instantly see why. I was shooting a 28 gauge 'made' specifically for trap/skeet. I went 100% for the 5-6 rounds through it and all but 1-2 were doubles. It was like a mouse, point and click. And this one wasn't even sized for me. . . . A 28 gauge for trap? I don't think so. Skeet, sure. But, trap? No. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 8:56:19 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Aluminum receiver on the Bobwhite? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Has anyone even shot one of the CZ or Yildiz guns to failure? I'm kinda curious as they tend to use aluminum with steel in the wearable parts. Modified boxlocks with monoblock barrels have the capability to last a long time if built right. In addition to the barrels not being correctly indexed my CZ bobwhite's receiver started warping after 100 rounds. Turkish steel and labor, a quality O/U or SXS isn't going to happen. There is supposedly a guy on shotgun world with 5k or so through a CZ with no issue. I have serious doubts it will last 100-150k a SP will last. I've got a 20 gauge Bobwhite. It's a nice little gun. There's really nothing else as good on the market for the same money. I had a little firing pin trouble but CZ took care of it. There's nothing wrong with the receivers (and yes, they're steel). |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 8:58:13 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would love a Red Label, but can not bring myself to spend that on a safe queen. Red Labels don't have a good reputation among most clays shooters. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 8:59:00 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why does it have to be a safe queen??
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I would love a Red Label, but can not bring myself to spend that on a safe queen. Why does it have to be a safe queen??
My Browning XT Trap turned into a safe queen. 
No time to shoot trap anymore, so down the road it went for someone else to love. Paid 1900 for it, sold it 8 years later for 1700. It was a great gun though. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 9:02:28 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The guys at my club don't really give a fuck what you shoot. They do appreciate high end guns, but if you show up with a CDNN special, it's not a reflection on anyone. I'm out there with a rusty Rem 870 express with a glued and taped busted stock next to guys shooting K-80's. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Accuracy? No Durability? No Reliability? No Fancy carvings on the stock? Yes I always have thought of sporting clays O/Us as the height of firearms snobbery, even more than the "Gotta be a Larue or Noveske or you ain't shit" bunch or posers in the AR world. Owning brand X or Y gun does not mean you're automatically a better shooter. It just means you have more money to spend on a gun. The guys at my club don't really give a fuck what you shoot. They do appreciate high end guns, but if you show up with a CDNN special, it's not a reflection on anyone. I'm out there with a rusty Rem 870 express with a glued and taped busted stock next to guys shooting K-80's. The guy that won every week at my club used a 40's Winchester model 12 with a plain monte carlo stock and a Simmons rib. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 9:02:29 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sure, you can. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Accuracy? No Durability? No Reliability? No Fancy carvings on the stock? Yes That must have taken forever shooting 2 at a time.
A good semi-auto is worth $1000. A 2-shotter? A good semi auto costs quite a bit more than $1k if you plan on buying one that fits you and then shooting any appreciable volume of shells through it. I shoot about 20k rounds a year in sporting clays, 5 stand and FITASC. I depend on a shotgun tnat fits me, shoots where I look and will go Bang when I need it to. You can't get that without spending some coin. Sure, you can. Please, share some specifics. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 9:02:29 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you can find a basic Classic Doubles 101 that's a great shotgun for under a grand. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
There are some really good Japanese OU's that you can often find well under a grand. If you can find a basic Classic Doubles 101 that's a great shotgun for under a grand. Grade 1 Browning Superposed. With careful shopping, you can still find them under $1k. Mine was made in 1931 and is still going strong. 
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Posted: 10/25/2014 9:03:59 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
With few exceptions. $1500-$2500 gets you a gun correctly indexed, a solid receiver expect it to go 100k to 150k rounds with no problems , good over all balance, and pleasing but minimalist aesthetics on the lower end guns. $2500-$4500 gets you a gun correctly indexed, a solid receiver, depending on the design some receivers can see 500k for multiple barrel sets with no issues, excellent to wand like balance, and pleasing aesthetics. Some of the higher end guns in that bracket the wood work and and receiver engraving are works of art. $4500-$16000 gets you all of the above and starts to branch out into the specialized custom competition guns and guns that are works of art. Some of the field guns in these categories have engraving that takes years to complete. The higher end mechanisms in this price are like fine watches. $16000-$100,000+ The locking mechanisms and craftsmanship goes beyond perfection. Smithing techniques that take lifetimes to perfect and years to produce a product are used. Specific engravers are commissioned to do the engraving. I have heard of some guns taking 10 years plus to engrave. This man gets it. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 9:05:08 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
David McKay Brown laughs at you.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/droppedImage.jpg http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/droppedImage_3.jpg A friend had DMB build him a pair of O/U's for his driven shooting in England. I have shot clays with one of them. Just incredible. If you don't understand why, and natter on about your 870, it is likely you will never understand. PS I have an 870 to go with my Superposed and my SxS game guns. I like 'em all, for different reasons. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 9:06:53 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryA pigeon shooting buddy has a double release on his Perazzi. I cannot shoot the damn thing. I understand the reasoning, but I PULL a trigger. 
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Posted: 10/25/2014 9:09:28 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not as stupid as one would think...IMO my Benelli Supersport does EVERYTHING better than my friends Purdey, and yes I have shot it, and when he shot my Benelli he said it was very, very nice. You have a very polite friend.
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Posted: 10/25/2014 9:11:50 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's an apples and oranges comparison. Saami specs 10 gauge 11,000 12 gauge 11,500 (except 3-1/2 in.) 12 gauge 3 1/2 in. 14,000 16 gauge 11,500 20 Gauge 12,000 28 gauge 12,500 .410 Bore 2 1/2 in. 12,500 .410 Bore 3 in. 13,500 .223 55,114 psi Which type of gun do you think will last longer one that has to endure much more pressure, heat, a higher velocity projectile, and has a rifled barrel or one with lower pressure, less heat, slower velocity projectiles without a rifled barrel?  
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Posted: 10/25/2014 9:16:29 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I always have thought of sporting clays O/Us as the height of firearms snobbery, even more than the "Gotta be a Larue or Noveske or you ain't shit" bunch or posers in the AR world. Owning brand X or Y gun does not mean you're automatically a better shooter. It just means you have more money to spend on a gun. So, you don't actually shoot sporting clays? Around here it is a bunch of good ol' boys who shoot whatever they happen to own. There is one old man who kicks ass with his old Stevens 311. His son shoots a K-80. No one cares. |
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