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Posted: 11/18/2014 10:58:29 AM EDT
[#1]
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He's not trying to be SOF. That's your confusion in this thread. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I stripped off a bunch of stuff, went back to near standard on all my pistols (night sights only upgrade). CSAT has (I think) the best training and really helps you learn fundamentals and build upon that. Once you master the fundamentals, you realize you dont need any of that additional shit. We should stick you in SOF. He's not trying to be SOF. That's your confusion in this thread. I'm not confused. If we have a bunch of talent out there hiding behind their keyboards who can operate dynamically in non-permissive environments more effectively without the need for night vision, magnified optics, or ir lasers then we should really put in a conscious effort into recruiting them into SOF. Think of the budget savings, think of the potential lives saved. I bet we would have gotten Bin Laden in no later than 2004 if we had half the guys posting here out there. |
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Posted: 11/18/2014 11:10:02 AM EDT
[#2]
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In first my rifle class I had three rifle magazines that failed, one shit it guts after a reload, spring ammo and all. I had a SIG pistol magazine get bound up to uselessness. I also somehow lost two mags in knee high grass never to be seen again. You assume: person or persons are going to co-operate with your plan, assailant(s) aren't very determined to kill you, that help will appear, stable environs, your gear is going to function, your skills are going rise to the occasion, and your options are not limited by injury or others who are. I assume karma is still a bitch that hates me. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Let's do some math. Let's say that you kill/take out of the fight one bad guy for every three rounds that you fire. How many is that in a thirty round mag? How many is that for one mag in your rifle and three or four mags in your gear? Are that many extra magazines really needed? When Paul Howe asked that of the class I was in, a lot of eyes were opened...including my own. In first my rifle class I had three rifle magazines that failed, one shit it guts after a reload, spring ammo and all. I had a SIG pistol magazine get bound up to uselessness. I also somehow lost two mags in knee high grass never to be seen again. You assume: person or persons are going to co-operate with your plan, assailant(s) aren't very determined to kill you, that help will appear, stable environs, your gear is going to function, your skills are going rise to the occasion, and your options are not limited by injury or others who are. I assume karma is still a bitch that hates me. Heres my planning on that 20 rounder in the gun 3 30 rounders in the PC Unless you're up against the Beslan crew, that should be more than enough. If I need more than that I should perhaps recognize that and grab the spare mags from the cars go bag I've also had mags that fell apart in classes, mags that did stuff you didn't expect. Classes are good for identifying what mags you own that have that issue. Matter of fact, I have a stack of mags in pieces sitting on a counter in my kitchen after a rifle class in Sept that will be marked as training mags once I rebuild them at some point. I trust the mags that wound up in my PC because they're mags that haven't given me any issues; not saying they can't or won't, but they haven't thus far |
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Posted: 11/18/2014 11:55:41 AM EDT
[#3]
 Yeah ok tape, but have you switched up watchbands yet? That's where the real dramatic tension is. Bust 'em! Edit: my quote tree died.  |
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Posted: 11/18/2014 1:47:13 PM EDT
[#4]
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When I go to training as LE, yes, I grab what I would wear for an active shooter/hot call (whenever I think I might need the rifle, I put my PC on). Unfortunately, my issued PC has no Molle attachments/mag pouches, so when I go to a training, I do the same thing I would do on duty, and stuff a couple of rifle magazines in my cargo pocket. Not as effective as having dedicated mag pouches, but it's what I've got to work with. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I am in TX and CSAT has my attention....I am currently just getting what work offers and is mandatory anyway. Question to LE guys going to these courses... Are you running an active shooter - type rig with plate carrier set ups? OR are you using a chest rig? I have both set ups and could just bring both. To me, a battle belt doesn't work since I have my duty belt and not enough 'tactical girth' for the extra shhhtuff. I would always be donning a chest rig or PC, for my purposes. The thought of this thread is neat but as has been mentioned in a few ways, everyone has different needs from training. When I go to training as LE, yes, I grab what I would wear for an active shooter/hot call (whenever I think I might need the rifle, I put my PC on). Unfortunately, my issued PC has no Molle attachments/mag pouches, so when I go to a training, I do the same thing I would do on duty, and stuff a couple of rifle magazines in my cargo pocket. Not as effective as having dedicated mag pouches, but it's what I've got to work with. No Molle,? Your department needs to open their wallet a bit. |
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Posted: 11/18/2014 2:25:47 PM EDT
[#5]
The most "profound" thing I learned during my first carbine course is that there is a whole universe of knowledge and skills that I didn't know I didn't know. That was not only very eye opening, but extremely humbling. I've taken a few carbine courses, a couple of pistol courses, and a shotgun course. While that instruction has given me a pretty decent grasp of the basics, it barely scratches the surface of what I would consider proficiency. I'm no more a gunfighter than a two-year-old with a paintbrush is a Picasso.
Prior to my first course, my rifles tended to look like they were dipped in shit and dragged through a Tapco catalog. I had 200m carbines with bipods and completely inappropriate optics, for example. Long range rifles with lasers and short range lights ... you get the idea 
At Sig Academy, my first instructor years ago was fond of saying "ounces equal pounds, and pounds equal pain". With those words in mind my training and defensive carbine have been standardized and simplified. There is nothing mounted that doesn't belong, and I have learned to avoid trying to make a single rifle serve every conceivable role imaginable. Even my slings are all exactly the same 
While I own several ARs, the majority of my carbines have a nearly identical manual of arms. It's not that I lack imagination, it's just that I have discovered what works well for me. They are mixture of current and old tech. I use and prefer Surefire M5xx forends, for example, and they have been considered obsolete for well over a decade. They work well for me though, and function is far more important than fashion. You can look at my defensive and training carbines and see a well worn groove in configuration: 
Like I said, it's a mixture of old and new tech - but it works well for me and I'm happy 
When it comes right down to it, training is a vastly under-appreciated facet of firearms ownership. While not nearly as fun as a shiny new ACOG or Aimpoint, it's a helluva lot more valuable for most of us - particularly a regular schmuck like me. |
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Posted: 11/18/2014 3:30:25 PM EDT
[#6]
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No Molle,? Your department needs to open their wallet a bit. Easier said than done for many small agencies |
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Posted: 11/18/2014 3:54:31 PM EDT
[#7]
The changes after my first class:
Lighter rifle! Replaced match trigger with milspec. Went with simpler sling. Went with fixed irons instead of flip ups. My defensive rifles are now very KISS with the exception of Aimpoint and light. Taking a night class resulted in changing lights. I did use a Surefire X300 Ultra, but the design of the push button on the back was not comfortable with a lot of use. I now much prefer the Streamlight TLR-1 HL. |
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Posted: 11/18/2014 3:56:15 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The changes after my first class: Lighter rifle! Replaced match trigger with milspec. Went with simpler sling. Went with fixed irons instead of flip ups. My defensive rifles are now very KISS with the exception of Aimpoint and light. Taking a night class resulted in changing lights. I did use a Surefire X300 Ultra, but the design of the push button on the back was not comfortable with a lot of use. I now much prefer the Streamlight TLR-1 HL. Smart move, match triggers are known to break all the time. If you want reliability I would never trust one. |
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Posted: 11/18/2014 4:09:06 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'd like to hear more about this if you're willing. Oh wait. Is this RA-style shenanigans? I can never tell when to be skeptical or sincerely interested. Dang GD. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: After attending a Carbine Course, I realized that I needed additional support that my muscles and tendons couldn't provide. I added tape to my arm kit for additional support. It changed my life. I can really see the difference at the 3 yard line, where I make my money. I'd like to hear more about this if you're willing. Oh wait. Is this RA-style shenanigans? I can never tell when to be skeptical or sincerely interested. Dang GD. I tape my wrists when lifting…feels like it just holds everything together better. As for the thread title, I've never taken a class, but have shot some carbine events, and after the first event, I ditched the single point sling and went with a VTAC, I also ditched the forward grip completely. Being in shape helps tremendously. |
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Posted: 11/18/2014 4:13:21 PM EDT
[#10]
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Smart move, match triggers are known to break all the time. If you want reliability I would never trust one. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The changes after my first class: Lighter rifle! Replaced match trigger with milspec. Went with simpler sling. Went with fixed irons instead of flip ups. My defensive rifles are now very KISS with the exception of Aimpoint and light. Taking a night class resulted in changing lights. I did use a Surefire X300 Ultra, but the design of the push button on the back was not comfortable with a lot of use. I now much prefer the Streamlight TLR-1 HL. Smart move, match triggers are known to break all the time. If you want reliability I would never trust one. Not a "match" trigger but, my SSAs have been rock solid. |
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Posted: 11/18/2014 4:16:30 PM EDT
[#11]
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Not a "match" trigger but, my SSAs have been rock solid. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The changes after my first class: Lighter rifle! Replaced match trigger with milspec. Went with simpler sling. Went with fixed irons instead of flip ups. My defensive rifles are now very KISS with the exception of Aimpoint and light. Taking a night class resulted in changing lights. I did use a Surefire X300 Ultra, but the design of the push button on the back was not comfortable with a lot of use. I now much prefer the Streamlight TLR-1 HL. Smart move, match triggers are known to break all the time. If you want reliability I would never trust one. Not a "match" trigger but, my SSAs have been rock solid. SSA and SSA-E have been problem-free for me as well. |
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Posted: 11/18/2014 4:26:17 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not confused. If we have a bunch of talent out there hiding behind their keyboards who can operate dynamically in non-permissive environments more effectively without the need for night vision, magnified optics, or ir lasers then we should really put in a conscious effort into recruiting them into SOF. Think of the budget savings, think of the potential lives saved. I bet we would have gotten Bin Laden in no later than 2004 if we had half the guys posting here out there. Quote HistoryQuoted: He's not trying to be SOF. That's your confusion in this thread. I'm not confused. If we have a bunch of talent out there hiding behind their keyboards who can operate dynamically in non-permissive environments more effectively without the need for night vision, magnified optics, or ir lasers then we should really put in a conscious effort into recruiting them into SOF. Think of the budget savings, think of the potential lives saved. I bet we would have gotten Bin Laden in no later than 2004 if we had half the guys posting here out there. Almost all shooters would benefit from more time spend working on the basic principles of shooting. A LOT of professional shooters (military) don't have the fundamentals down, a lot do, but all could do with more time building upon head eye position, lock lock front sight press. As an example to unnecessary equipment, would it be more useful to train 10,000 repetitions on a Glock Zev trigger or the same on a stock trigger? Will the Zev make you better? IPSC/IDPA and games etc, then maybe it'll drop your splits etc, but in a real world where you go in country and get given whatever they have available, which is likely a Glock 17 with std trigger, Then no, you've just built in a backwards step by training with additional, not needed shit. Same deal with an AR15, if you train with a grip that supports nose to charging handle and a hand position that can be used on a 7" CAR handguard, then you can pretty much pick up any AR15 on the planet and get that exact same position. Train using the elongated C clamp, then good luck when someone hands you a suppressed SBR. You didn't know this when you posted, but you pretty much picked the wrong person to single out for your particular comment, but so be it. My statement of master the fundamentals stands. |
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Posted: 11/18/2014 4:28:06 PM EDT
[#13]
I learned that suppressor covers melt
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Posted: 11/18/2014 4:43:06 PM EDT
[#14]
One pont to two point padded sling.
Gapper on lower between grip and trigger guard. No open collar shirt for brass to fall down. |
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Posted: 11/18/2014 5:17:44 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The most "profound" thing I learned during my first carbine course is that there is a whole universe of knowledge and skills that I didn't know I didn't know. That was not only very eye opening, but extremely humbling. I've taken a few carbine courses, a couple of pistol courses, and a shotgun course. While that instruction has given me a pretty decent grasp of the basics, it barely scratches the surface of what I would consider proficiency. I'm no more a gunfighter than a two-year-old with a paintbrush is a Picasso. Prior to my first course, my rifles tended to look like they were dipped in shit and dragged through a Tapco catalog. I had 200m carbines with bipods and completely inappropriate optics, for example. Long range rifles with lasers and short range lights ... you get the idea At Sig Academy, my first instructor years ago was fond of saying "ounces equal pounds, and pounds equal pain". With those words in mind my training and defensive carbine have been standardized and simplified. There is nothing mounted that doesn't belong, and I have learned to avoid trying to make a single rifle serve every conceivable role imaginable. Even my slings are all exactly the same While I own several ARs, the majority of my carbines have a nearly identical manual of arms. It's not that I lack imagination, it's just that I have discovered what works well for me. They are mixture of current and old tech. I use and prefer Surefire M5xx forends, for example, and they have been considered obsolete for well over a decade. They work well for me though, and function is far more important than fashion. You can look at my defensive and training carbines and see a well worn groove in configuration: http://home.comcast.net/~cjan99999/aimpoint_eotech_carbines.jpg http://home.comcast.net/~cjan99999/M4_3.JPG Like I said, it's a mixture of old and new tech - but it works well for me and I'm happy When it comes right down to it, training is a vastly under-appreciated facet of firearms ownership. While not nearly as fun as a shiny new ACOG or Aimpoint, it's a helluva lot more valuable for most of us - particularly a regular schmuck like me. what kind of fore stock is that? |
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Posted: 11/18/2014 5:22:10 PM EDT
[#16]
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I learned that suppressor covers melt they also open up skin with burns when you bend over and it swings around on your sling like your 3' cock 
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Posted: 11/18/2014 5:23:55 PM EDT
[#17]
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I think you're trying to be mean, I guess, as I don't understand where you are coming from. However, I don't see an issue with my original statement? Almost all shooters would benefit from more time spend working on the basic principles of shooting. A LOT of professional shooters (military) don't have the fundamentals down, a lot do, but all could do with more time building upon head eye position, lock lock front sight press. As an example to unnecessary equipment, would it be more useful to train 10,000 repetitions on a Glock Zev trigger or the same on a stock trigger? Will the Zev make you better? IPSC/IDPA and games etc, then maybe it'll drop your splits etc, but in a real world where you go in country and get given whatever they have available, which is likely a Glock 17 with std trigger, Then no, you've just built in a backwards step by training with additional, not needed shit. Same deal with an AR15, if you train with a grip that supports nose to charging handle and a hand position that can be used on a 7" CAR handguard, then you can pretty much pick up any AR15 on the planet and get that exact same position. Train using the elongated C clamp, then good luck when someone hands you a suppressed SBR. You didn't know this when you posted, but you pretty much picked the wrong person to single out for your particular comment, but so be it. My statement of master the fundamentals stands. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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He's not trying to be SOF. That's your confusion in this thread. I'm not confused. If we have a bunch of talent out there hiding behind their keyboards who can operate dynamically in non-permissive environments more effectively without the need for night vision, magnified optics, or ir lasers then we should really put in a conscious effort into recruiting them into SOF. Think of the budget savings, think of the potential lives saved. I bet we would have gotten Bin Laden in no later than 2004 if we had half the guys posting here out there. Almost all shooters would benefit from more time spend working on the basic principles of shooting. A LOT of professional shooters (military) don't have the fundamentals down, a lot do, but all could do with more time building upon head eye position, lock lock front sight press. As an example to unnecessary equipment, would it be more useful to train 10,000 repetitions on a Glock Zev trigger or the same on a stock trigger? Will the Zev make you better? IPSC/IDPA and games etc, then maybe it'll drop your splits etc, but in a real world where you go in country and get given whatever they have available, which is likely a Glock 17 with std trigger, Then no, you've just built in a backwards step by training with additional, not needed shit. Same deal with an AR15, if you train with a grip that supports nose to charging handle and a hand position that can be used on a 7" CAR handguard, then you can pretty much pick up any AR15 on the planet and get that exact same position. Train using the elongated C clamp, then good luck when someone hands you a suppressed SBR. You didn't know this when you posted, but you pretty much picked the wrong person to single out for your particular comment, but so be it. My statement of master the fundamentals stands. I could make a lengthy reply but instead I'll just say l o fucking l. The wrong person to single out? Lol Chris Costa is that you? What does that even mean? Are you going to be our first SOF operator recruited under the new initiative? |
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Posted: 11/18/2014 5:24:29 PM EDT
[#18]
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SSA and SSA-E have been problem-free for me as well. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The changes after my first class: Lighter rifle! Replaced match trigger with milspec. Went with simpler sling. Went with fixed irons instead of flip ups. My defensive rifles are now very KISS with the exception of Aimpoint and light. Taking a night class resulted in changing lights. I did use a Surefire X300 Ultra, but the design of the push button on the back was not comfortable with a lot of use. I now much prefer the Streamlight TLR-1 HL. Smart move, match triggers are known to break all the time. If you want reliability I would never trust one. Not a "match" trigger but, my SSAs have been rock solid. SSA and SSA-E have been problem-free for me as well. Sarcasm meter. |
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Posted: 11/18/2014 5:28:47 PM EDT
[#19]
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Sarcasm meter. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The changes after my first class: Lighter rifle! Replaced match trigger with milspec. Went with simpler sling. Went with fixed irons instead of flip ups. My defensive rifles are now very KISS with the exception of Aimpoint and light. Taking a night class resulted in changing lights. I did use a Surefire X300 Ultra, but the design of the push button on the back was not comfortable with a lot of use. I now much prefer the Streamlight TLR-1 HL. Smart move, match triggers are known to break all the time. If you want reliability I would never trust one. Not a "match" trigger but, my SSAs have been rock solid. SSA and SSA-E have been problem-free for me as well. Sarcasm meter. Fair enough.
I'm not operator at all, but my suppressed SBR and my 16" Recce both have 10-12" handguards, while my work AR has a basic carbine handguard. I have zero issue shooting both styles effectively. You're not THAT great of a shooter if you can only shoot one style of weapon. Learn to adapt and use the strengths of different styles. |
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Posted: 11/18/2014 5:29:37 PM EDT
[#20]
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Sarcasm meter. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The changes after my first class: Lighter rifle! Replaced match trigger with milspec. Went with simpler sling. Went with fixed irons instead of flip ups. My defensive rifles are now very KISS with the exception of Aimpoint and light. Taking a night class resulted in changing lights. I did use a Surefire X300 Ultra, but the design of the push button on the back was not comfortable with a lot of use. I now much prefer the Streamlight TLR-1 HL. Smart move, match triggers are known to break all the time. If you want reliability I would never trust one. Not a "match" trigger but, my SSAs have been rock solid. SSA and SSA-E have been problem-free for me as well. Sarcasm meter. " " or ""
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Posted: 11/18/2014 5:39:19 PM EDT
[#21]
I’ve been through a dozen or so LEO courses over the past 12 years or so, evenly split using a full size AR15 (my own Colt MT 6700 with barrel turned down to a govt profile and FS added), and a 16in carbine version of sorts (various dot sights, an ACOG, irons, vert grips, BUIS, etc) . For me, I found no need to dress up my own rig any more than it already is (ACOG and a Springfield trigger job). Furthermore, I like the 1/9 twist using 55gr bullets at 3200+ fps. I think some people really buy in the hype (pun intended), and when they realize they should have spent the $$$ on ammo and range time they STILL don’t get rid of the crap that acts more like Christmas décor than having any effect on their ability to shoot, shoot-n-move, reload, or otherwise handle their rifle in a well learned manner.
I like my AR15 simple. I say use the 55gr bullets, keep the barrel length at 20in, minimize the décor, and shoot, shoot, and shoot some more. Oh, and shoot while moving, and in 8 different positions, and while out of breath. Carry your typical combat load (210 rds), fire a mag and then “fall back” 100 yards and shoot another mag for accuracy at targets 200 to 300 yards out. Leave the gimmicks and Pmag pop toppers at home. So in short, the courses I've run have only strengthened my opinion of keeping the AR15 platform as a simple rifle is better for me. K.I.S.S. |
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Posted: 11/18/2014 5:41:50 PM EDT
[#22]
To clarify, no one is saying that you should skip working the fundamentals and start using all the great equipment that is out there these days, that's just ridiculous. Just like in land nav you learn to use a compass and map before a GPS.
However, people saying they stripped their rifle to iron sights after taking a carbine course is fucking clownshoes. That being said you take two brand new shooters,and give one a 6920with irons and the other a tricked out rifle (both zeroed) and see who gets the most hits on target. You're fooling yourself if you don't see that. |
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Posted: 11/18/2014 5:53:20 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
To clarify, no one is saying that you should skip working the fundamentals and start using all the great equipment that is out there these days, that's just ridiculous. Just like in land nav you learn to use a compass and map before a GPS. However, people saying they stripped their rifle to iron sights after taking a carbine course is fucking clownshoes. That being said you take two brand new shooters,and give one a 6920with irons and the other a tricked out rifle (both zeroed) and see who gets the most hits on target. You're fooling yourself if you don't see that. I got tired of waiting Wondering if you were ever coming around. My faith in you was fading Thanks for clarifying for everyone's feelings
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Posted: 11/18/2014 5:57:59 PM EDT
[#24]
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I got tired of waiting Wondering if you were ever coming around. My faith in you was fading Thanks for clarifying for everyone's feelings Quote HistoryQuoted:
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To clarify, no one is saying that you should skip working the fundamentals and start using all the great equipment that is out there these days, that's just ridiculous. Just like in land nav you learn to use a compass and map before a GPS. However, people saying they stripped their rifle to iron sights after taking a carbine course is fucking clownshoes. That being said you take two brand new shooters,and give one a 6920with irons and the other a tricked out rifle (both zeroed) and see who gets the most hits on target. You're fooling yourself if you don't see that. I got tired of waiting Wondering if you were ever coming around. My faith in you was fading Thanks for clarifying for everyone's feelings I see what you did there. 
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Posted: 11/18/2014 6:03:22 PM EDT
[#25]
Got rid of my rail and surefire M952 and went with a standard magpul with their surefire light mount and now use my pistol light on it instead. Pretty basic shit, just made the gun a lot lighter. Also learned to not grab a gun by the suppressor..... Idk WTF I was thinking (obviously I wasnt).
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Posted: 11/18/2014 6:09:16 PM EDT
[#26]
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what kind of fore stock is that? Those are Surefire M500 forends, and most of mine have been upgraded to LED. The main light housing and the smaller LED lights are integrated into the hand guard itself, as are the switches. They replace the stock hand guards: 
Most people have moved beyond them for a variety of reasons, but they work very well for me. I don't see the need to free float a 200m carbine, and I don't care for vertical grips or thumb stops. That puts me in the minority, but that's okay I have nothing against those upgrades of course - I'm just not a skilled enough shooter to utilize the improvements that they offer.
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Posted: 11/18/2014 6:18:02 PM EDT
[#27]
Here's what I've learned so far:
- If you're going to hang stuff off a belt, use one belt to hold up your pants and another to hold all your shit (mags, dump pouch, whatever); - Anything strapped to your thigh will SUCK if you have to move more than 50 yards; - Label your mags unless you want to ask 6' 5" Frank for "your" mags back; - If you take a class with a non-standard caliber, bring your own snap caps; - You can reliably ping a chest-sized target at 300 yards with a red dot, but trying to shoot targets at 7 yards with a magnified scope is no fun; - Wear something around your neck unless you enjoy burning brass down your shirt; - Zero your primary and backup carbines before class (you should be checking zero regularly anyway); - Chest rigs are great for walking around in but are terrible for rolling around in. |
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Posted: 11/18/2014 6:22:19 PM EDT
[#28]
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I would recommend going beyond just the shooting; go out and use/wear your gear for extended period of time. Take it to the field and hump/patrol some distance because shooting will consume an eye blink amount of time compare to walking around in it. Bingo. Go to Max Velocity Tactical's Combat Team Tactics and Patrol class to realy shake out your kit. Those West Virginia mountains don't treat you as kind as the flat square range. |
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Posted: 11/18/2014 6:33:35 PM EDT
[#29]
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Here's what I've learned so far: - If you're going to hang stuff off a belt, use one belt to hold up your pants and another to hold all your shit (mags, dump pouch, whatever); - Anything strapped to your thigh will SUCK if you have to move more than 50 yards; - Label your mags unless you want to ask 6' 5" Frank for "your" mags back; - If you take a class with a non-standard caliber, bring your own snap caps; - You can reliably ping a chest-sized target at 300 yards with a red dot, but trying to shoot targets at 7 yards with a magnified scope is no fun; - Wear something around your neck unless you enjoy burning brass down your shirt; - Zero your primary and backup carbines before class (you should be checking zero regularly anyway); - Chest rigs are great for walking around in but are terrible for rolling around in. Depends on your magnification. I shoot a 4 power at 5 - 7 yards on a semi regular basis. Open both eyes and treat it like a red dot. Works best if you have an illuminated scope. |
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Posted: 11/18/2014 6:45:24 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That being said you take two brand new shooters,and give one a 6920with irons and the other a tricked out rifle (both zeroed) and see who gets the most hits on target. You're fooling yourself if you don't see that. I literally bought my mom the ability to shoot. She likes shooting, but couldn't hit anything, no matter how much instruction I gave her. Then she shot my wifes rifle which is right at 5lbs, no recoil, SSA-E trigger and has a nice T-1. All of a sudden she could clean a plate rack at 100m standing. So I just built her the same gun and now she is a great shot. BOUGHT SKILL. YES. |
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Posted: 11/18/2014 7:03:33 PM EDT
[#31]
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Depends on your magnification. I shoot a 4 power at 5 - 7 yards on a semi regular basis. Open both eyes and treat it like a red dot. Works best if you have an illuminated scope. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Here's what I've learned so far: - If you're going to hang stuff off a belt, use one belt to hold up your pants and another to hold all your shit (mags, dump pouch, whatever); - Anything strapped to your thigh will SUCK if you have to move more than 50 yards; - Label your mags unless you want to ask 6' 5" Frank for "your" mags back; - If you take a class with a non-standard caliber, bring your own snap caps; - You can reliably ping a chest-sized target at 300 yards with a red dot, but trying to shoot targets at 7 yards with a magnified scope is no fun; - Wear something around your neck unless you enjoy burning brass down your shirt; - Zero your primary and backup carbines before class (you should be checking zero regularly anyway); - Chest rigs are great for walking around in but are terrible for rolling around in. Depends on your magnification. I shoot a 4 power at 5 - 7 yards on a semi regular basis. Open both eyes and treat it like a red dot. Works best if you have an illuminated scope. If you practice and learn to correct for the offset, then yes, this does work. But it is still not fun.
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Posted: 11/18/2014 7:13:55 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I literally bought my mom the ability to shoot. She likes shooting, but couldn't hit anything, no matter how much instruction I gave her. Then she shot my wifes rifle which is right at 5lbs, no recoil, SSA-E trigger and has a nice T-1. All of a sudden she could clean a plate rack at 100m standing. So I just built her the same gun and now she is a great shot. BOUGHT SKILL. YES. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That being said you take two brand new shooters,and give one a 6920with irons and the other a tricked out rifle (both zeroed) and see who gets the most hits on target. You're fooling yourself if you don't see that. I literally bought my mom the ability to shoot. She likes shooting, but couldn't hit anything, no matter how much instruction I gave her. Then she shot my wifes rifle which is right at 5lbs, no recoil, SSA-E trigger and has a nice T-1. All of a sudden she could clean a plate rack at 100m standing. So I just built her the same gun and now she is a great shot. BOUGHT SKILL. YES. GASP!!!! IMPOSSIBLE!!! NO DIME DRILLS?!?! |
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Posted: 11/18/2014 7:14:59 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am in TX and CSAT has my attention....I am currently just getting what work offers and is mandatory anyway. Question to LE guys going to these courses... Are you running an active shooter - type rig with plate carrier set ups? OR are you using a chest rig? I have both set ups and could just bring both. To me, a battle belt doesn't work since I have my duty belt and not enough 'tactical girth' for the extra shhhtuff. I would always be donning a chest rig or PC, for my purposes. The thought of this thread is neat but as has been mentioned in a few ways, everyone has different needs from training. Train with what you will be wearing, to a point. I wear nylon gear on the range so my leather gear doesn't get trashed. If you have a PC then wear it. It will effect how you move and shoulder the weapon so get used to it now. Rob |
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Posted: 11/18/2014 10:55:20 PM EDT
[#34]
I was nervous that I would shoot poorly....most of the class was worried about keymod rail or what gloves to wear....the 3 quiet ones shot well and stayed quiet
Most gun show stuff isn't good enough to have your life depend on it I learned that magazines will get in the way at some point no matter if on your chest or belt My sling interfered with my upgraded chest rig straps. Back to the regular straps to facilitate arm changes with the ar15 And. Too many fucks sweeping the class, or just not following the rules in general.....no more classes for me because of this. Which sucks as it was a good amount of range time |
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Posted: 11/18/2014 10:57:53 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was nervous that I would shoot poorly....most of the class was worried about keymod rail or what gloves to wear....the 3 quiet ones shot well and stayed quiet Most gun show stuff isn't good enough to have your life depend on it I learned that magazines will get in the way at some point no matter if on your chest or belt My sling interfered with my upgraded chest rig straps. Back to the regular straps to facilitate arm changes with the ar15 And. Too many fucks sweeping the class, or just not following the rules in general.....no more classes for me because of this. Which sucks as it was a good amount of range time 
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Posted: 11/18/2014 11:02:34 PM EDT
[#36]
Guy to my left kept clearing his jams by pointing the rifle to the right and banging on it
He had bought it from a pawn shop and never shot it |
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Posted: 11/18/2014 11:02:52 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was nervous that I would shoot poorly....most of the class was worried about keymod rail or what gloves to wear....the 3 quiet ones shot well and stayed quiet Most gun show stuff isn't good enough to have your life depend on it I learned that magazines will get in the way at some point no matter if on your chest or belt My sling interfered with my upgraded chest rig straps. Back to the regular straps to facilitate arm changes with the ar15 And. Too many fucks sweeping the class, or just not following the rules in general.....no more classes for me because of this. Which sucks as it was a good amount of range time Find a better class to operate in |
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Posted: 11/18/2014 11:18:03 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Those are Surefire M500 forends, and most of mine have been upgraded to LED. The main light housing and the smaller LED lights are integrated into the hand guard itself, as are the switches. They replace the stock hand guards: http://home.comcast.net/~cjan99999/Surefire_LED2.JPG Most people have moved beyond them for a variety of reasons, but they work very well for me. I don't see the need to free float a 200m carbine, and I don't care for vertical grips or thumb stops. That puts me in the minority, but that's okay I have nothing against those upgrades of course - I'm just not a skilled enough shooter to utilize the improvements that they offer.Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: what kind of fore stock is that? Those are Surefire M500 forends, and most of mine have been upgraded to LED. The main light housing and the smaller LED lights are integrated into the hand guard itself, as are the switches. They replace the stock hand guards: http://home.comcast.net/~cjan99999/Surefire_LED2.JPG Most people have moved beyond them for a variety of reasons, but they work very well for me. I don't see the need to free float a 200m carbine, and I don't care for vertical grips or thumb stops. That puts me in the minority, but that's okay I have nothing against those upgrades of course - I'm just not a skilled enough shooter to utilize the improvements that they offer. |
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Posted: 11/19/2014 1:44:34 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Those are Surefire M500 forends, and most of mine have been upgraded to LED. The main light housing and the smaller LED lights are integrated into the hand guard itself, as are the switches. They replace the stock hand guards: http://home.comcast.net/~cjan99999/Surefire_LED2.JPG Most people have moved beyond them for a variety of reasons, but they work very well for me. I don't see the need to free float a 200m carbine, and I don't care for vertical grips or thumb stops. That puts me in the minority, but that's okay I have nothing against those upgrades of course - I'm just not a skilled enough shooter to utilize the improvements that they offer.Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
what kind of fore stock is that? Those are Surefire M500 forends, and most of mine have been upgraded to LED. The main light housing and the smaller LED lights are integrated into the hand guard itself, as are the switches. They replace the stock hand guards: http://home.comcast.net/~cjan99999/Surefire_LED2.JPG Most people have moved beyond them for a variety of reasons, but they work very well for me. I don't see the need to free float a 200m carbine, and I don't care for vertical grips or thumb stops. That puts me in the minority, but that's okay I have nothing against those upgrades of course - I'm just not a skilled enough shooter to utilize the improvements that they offer.It's what I still have on mine. They recently brought them out in an LED variant I still run the older bulbs, in part because I am too cheap to pay for the upgrade and I still have a quantity of the bulbs on hand The new LED variants are a bit pricier MSRP than I recall the original models 15 years ago Quoted:
Thanks, I use a small vert grip as a hand stop but I'm running the magpul MOE cheapy line. The one downside to them is you don't have a lot of attachment points for accessories The original 500s pre-date the current near-universal rail systems and it doesn't look like the current production models have added anything in that regards |
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Posted: 11/19/2014 1:55:24 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was nervous that I would shoot poorly....most of the class was worried about keymod rail or what gloves to wear....the 3 quiet ones shot well and stayed quiet Most gun show stuff isn't good enough to have your life depend on it I learned that magazines will get in the way at some point no matter if on your chest or belt My sling interfered with my upgraded chest rig straps. Back to the regular straps to facilitate arm changes with the ar15 And. Too many fucks sweeping the class, or just not following the rules in general.....no more classes for me because of this. Which sucks as it was a good amount of range time If you attended a quality class taught by a good instructor, you would not see these problems. |
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Posted: 11/19/2014 5:38:33 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
• It's what I still have on mine They recently brought them out in an LED variant • I still run the older bulbs, in part because I am too cheap to pay for the upgrade and I still have a quantity of the bulbs on hand • The new LED variants are a bit pricier MSRP than I recall the original models 15 years ago Quote HistoryQuoted:
• It's what I still have on mine They recently brought them out in an LED variant • I still run the older bulbs, in part because I am too cheap to pay for the upgrade and I still have a quantity of the bulbs on hand • The new LED variants are a bit pricier MSRP than I recall the original models 15 years ago • That's good to know - maybe I'm not quite as obsolete as I thought I was  Is yours used on your patrol weapon, or is it primarily for personal use?
• If you ever run out and need more, let me know. I have a few MN10s and at least one MN11. I'd be happy to donate a couple to send your way if the need arises. • Yeah, the new ones are absurdly expensive I tend to buy mine used, preferably broken, and then repair/refurb/upgrade them myself. Been using the LED upgrade bezel from TNVC and have had great luck with it.
ETA: Quoted:
Too many fucks sweeping the class, or just not following the rules in general.....no more classes for me because of this. Which sucks as it was a good amount of range time For what it's worth, you might want to consider finding a different school and give it another go
Sig Academy for example has a zero tolerance policy for that level of douchebaggery. They will jettison a student instantly who does something to endanger the class. |
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Posted: 11/19/2014 6:25:47 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Take a class at Tactical Response did you? If you attended a quality class taught by a good instructor, you would not see these problems. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I was nervous that I would shoot poorly....most of the class was worried about keymod rail or what gloves to wear....the 3 quiet ones shot well and stayed quiet Most gun show stuff isn't good enough to have your life depend on it I learned that magazines will get in the way at some point no matter if on your chest or belt My sling interfered with my upgraded chest rig straps. Back to the regular straps to facilitate arm changes with the ar15 And. Too many fucks sweeping the class, or just not following the rules in general.....no more classes for me because of this. Which sucks as it was a good amount of range time If you attended a quality class taught by a good instructor, you would not see these problems. My class was a top instructor which most speak highly of....i know it wasn't his fault so I am not mentioning his name....but the handgun class the day before said the same thing only more of it when I asked them how the class was |
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Posted: 11/19/2014 6:46:15 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My class was a top instructor which most speak highly of....i know it wasn't his fault so I am not mentioning his name....but the handgun class the day before said the same thing only more of it when I asked them how the class was Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I was nervous that I would shoot poorly....most of the class was worried about keymod rail or what gloves to wear....the 3 quiet ones shot well and stayed quiet Most gun show stuff isn't good enough to have your life depend on it I learned that magazines will get in the way at some point no matter if on your chest or belt My sling interfered with my upgraded chest rig straps. Back to the regular straps to facilitate arm changes with the ar15 And. Too many fucks sweeping the class, or just not following the rules in general.....no more classes for me because of this. Which sucks as it was a good amount of range time If you attended a quality class taught by a good instructor, you would not see these problems. My class was a top instructor which most speak highly of....i know it wasn't his fault so I am not mentioning his name....but the handgun class the day before said the same thing only more of it when I asked them how the class was So it's a pattern. I myself would like to know the name of the instructor/school so I can avoid it. |
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Posted: 11/19/2014 7:25:11 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My class was a top instructor which most speak highly of....i know it wasn't his fault so I am not mentioning his name....but the handgun class the day before said the same thing only more of it when I asked them how the class was So you're just gonna leave a big steaming turd on the carpet and walk off with that not so fresh feeling? If an instructor is lettiing two classes go with unsafe hijinks it would be good for the community to know it. |
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Posted: 11/19/2014 9:21:27 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I literally bought my mom the ability to shoot. She likes shooting, but couldn't hit anything, no matter how much instruction I gave her. Then she shot my wifes rifle which is right at 5lbs, no recoil, SSA-E trigger and has a nice T-1. All of a sudden she could clean a plate rack at 100m standing. So I just built her the same gun and now she is a great shot. BOUGHT SKILL. YES. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That being said you take two brand new shooters,and give one a 6920with irons and the other a tricked out rifle (both zeroed) and see who gets the most hits on target. You're fooling yourself if you don't see that. I literally bought my mom the ability to shoot. She likes shooting, but couldn't hit anything, no matter how much instruction I gave her. Then she shot my wifes rifle which is right at 5lbs, no recoil, SSA-E trigger and has a nice T-1. All of a sudden she could clean a plate rack at 100m standing. So I just built her the same gun and now she is a great shot. BOUGHT SKILL. YES. PICS or GTFO
same thing with my GF, but not just because she is simply a lady - rather, it's because she has caught teh cross-eye dominatrix and a red dot makes that so much easier. |
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Posted: 11/19/2014 9:28:30 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was nervous that I would shoot poorly....most of the class was worried about keymod rail or what gloves to wear....the 3 quiet ones shot well and stayed quiet Most gun show stuff isn't good enough to have your life depend on it I learned that magazines will get in the way at some point no matter if on your chest or belt My sling interfered with my upgraded chest rig straps. Back to the regular straps to facilitate arm changes with the ar15 And. Too many fucks sweeping the class, or just not following the rules in general.....no more classes for me because of this. Which sucks as it was a good amount of range time Paul Howe will and has kicked people out of his classes for that. He's a pretty easy-going guy but doesn't tolerate any safety violations. Period. |
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Posted: 11/19/2014 9:51:12 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
• That's good to know - maybe I'm not quite as obsolete as I thought I was Is yours used on your patrol weapon, or is it primarily for personal use?
• If you ever run out and need more, let me know. I have a few MN10s and at least one MN11. I'd be happy to donate a couple to send your way if the need arises. • Yeah, the new ones are absurdly expensive I tend to buy mine used, preferably broken, and then repair/refurb/upgrade them myself. Been using the LED upgrade bezel from TNVC and have had great luck with it.
Its what was my patrol rifle at my old PT agency Probably will be my patrol rifle at my new PT agency; my policy submission is being looked at favorably and they've asked that I tweak it on a bit of the language before approval. That agency already has an older 500 variant on its issued rifle ( yes, they have only one rifle ) The person whose been blocking the personal rifle policy at my FT place is retiring this winter so I'm hopeful that his replacement will be more favorable about personal rifles The number one guy has always been in favor of personal rifles but number two has been against me and has argued successfully so far against adopting my policy proposal. Like yours a pretty basic rifle compared to most of the pimped out rifles I see routinely posted here Absolutely I'd take your old bulbs off your hand. They're still making new ones that are for sale on the Streamlight website, but if you have some at a decent price I'd take them and thanks in advance |
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Posted: 11/19/2014 11:10:14 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
same thing with my GF, but not just because she is simply a lady - rather, it's because she has caught teh cross-eye dominatrix and a red dot makes that so much easier. Pics of this or GTFO...
LOL! |
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Posted: 11/19/2014 11:49:57 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
PICS or GTFO
same thing with my GF, but not just because she is simply a lady - rather, it's because she has caught teh cross-eye dominatrix and a red dot makes that so much easier. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
That being said you take two brand new shooters,and give one a 6920with irons and the other a tricked out rifle (both zeroed) and see who gets the most hits on target. You're fooling yourself if you don't see that. I literally bought my mom the ability to shoot. She likes shooting, but couldn't hit anything, no matter how much instruction I gave her. Then she shot my wifes rifle which is right at 5lbs, no recoil, SSA-E trigger and has a nice T-1. All of a sudden she could clean a plate rack at 100m standing. So I just built her the same gun and now she is a great shot. BOUGHT SKILL. YES. PICS or GTFO
same thing with my GF, but not just because she is simply a lady - rather, it's because she has caught teh cross-eye dominatrix and a red dot makes that so much easier. A cross-eyed woman in leather with a riding crop is the stuff nightmares are made of... |
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Posted: 11/19/2014 1:55:00 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A cross-eyed woman in leather with a riding crop is the stuff nightmares wet dreams are made of... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
That being said you take two brand new shooters,and give one a 6920with irons and the other a tricked out rifle (both zeroed) and see who gets the most hits on target. You're fooling yourself if you don't see that. I literally bought my mom the ability to shoot. She likes shooting, but couldn't hit anything, no matter how much instruction I gave her. Then she shot my wifes rifle which is right at 5lbs, no recoil, SSA-E trigger and has a nice T-1. All of a sudden she could clean a plate rack at 100m standing. So I just built her the same gun and now she is a great shot. BOUGHT SKILL. YES. PICS or GTFO
same thing with my GF, but not just because she is simply a lady - rather, it's because she has caught teh cross-eye dominatrix and a red dot makes that so much easier. A cross-eyed woman in leather with a riding crop is the stuff nightmares wet dreams are made of... FIFY
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